ESB public charging plans

BoatMad

samih wrote: »

I need 40 percent/11 kWh of my battery for the return trip to work. In 60 kWh car I would need 15 percent/11 kWh daily so I could easily top up the battery every second night as I currently do. Don't see this as a major issue. If I updated the EVSE to a 7.4 kW model it would be even better. I mean how much more than 60 kWh you reckon the batteries will grow to. I don't really see much point in an EV with a 1000 km range for example.

It's entirely nonsense to have a car with a battery that you can't charge to full at home. A car is not simply a commute vehicle. We have usage patterns that require more then this type of usage

As I've said do the maths on 60 kW at home on a 16 a circuit. It's nonsense

As for battery power , of course it will increase, we need battery SUVs , the ability to tow trailers and caravans. Bigger EVs for semi luxury , 120 kph capable for several hours in all conditions , boy racer EVs and sports car EVs etc.

Remember Thomas Watson , once said the world would only need. 5 computers.

Every advantage in KWh will soaked up by usage patterns.

samih

BoatMad wrote: »

It's entirely nonsense to have a car with a battery that you can't charge to full at home. A car is not simply a commute vehicle. We have usage patterns that require more then this type of usage

As I've said do the maths on 60 kW at home on a 16 a circuit. It's nonsense

As for battery power , of course it will increase, we need battery SUVs , the ability to tow trailers and caravans. Bigger EVs for semi luxury , 120 kph capable for several hours in all conditions , boy racer EVs and sports car EVs etc.

Remember Thomas Watson , once said the world would only need. 5 computers.

Every advantage in KWh will soaked up by usage patterns.

I doubt it.

nokia69

samih wrote: »

I doubt it.

Tesla offer a 90kWh battery now, and bigger batteries are on the way

in general for the average user there is a limit, for most people 60kWh is more than enough

BoatMad

nokia69 wrote: »

Tesla offer a 90kWh battery now, and bigger batteries are on the way

in general for the average user there is a limit, for most people 60kWh is more than enough

The model T ford generated 20 HP. We're at that level in EVs

By 2020 I expect my EV to do everything my 4x4 does today , including towing upto 3T.

That's the future

samih

Analogy here is that fuel tank size of normal cars has not increased from 20 liters to 2000 liters in past hundred years. I would not like to drive an ev that costs 100 euro to fuel.

bk

Well if this news is true, then it has made up my mind for me, I won't be buying a leaf

I was seriously considering buying a Leaf, but this throws the economics out the window for me. I have no objections to paying for the fuel I use, but why in in gods name would I agree to a monthly subscription!! I don't have to subscribe to use a petrol station.

In my personal scenario, I'd do 95% of my charging at home. I'd only use the fast chargers about once a month to visit family in Cork. But now I'd have to pay 17 per month to be even granted the right of being charged more!

So lets do the maths (based on the rumour), to drive to Cork and back once a month, I'd need to do 5 fast charges and two home charges, so:

5 × 5 + 17 = 42

plus a euro or two for home charging. So about €44

To put that in comparison, you would be looking at about €40 in petrol for a Prius. Without the trouble of having to stop 5 times for 30 minutes!

But even more seriously this has made me realise that by buying a BEV, you are putting the value of your significant investment in the hands of a monopoly! Sure, it might be €17 per month this year, but what is stopping them from increasing it to €50 or €100 per month next year?

Overnight with a flick of a figure, ESB eCars could wipe out the value of your very expensive car!

So I think I'll focus on hybrids for now and look at BEVs again in 5 years when they have long enough range to make this sort of monopoly unnecessary.

nokia69

samih wrote: »

Analogy here is that fuel tank size of normal cars has not increased from 20 liters to 2000 liters in past hundred years. I would not like to drive an ev that costs 100 euro to fuel.

not the same thing

has the power of the engines changed much

an EV that costs 100 euro to fuel from empty would have well north of a 600kWh battery, we won't see that for a while

heliguyheliguy

bk wrote: »

Well if this news is true, then it has made up my mind for me, I won't be buying a leaf

I was seriously considering buying a Leaf, but this throws the economics out the window for me. I have no objections to paying for the fuel I use, but why in in gods name would I agree to a monthly subscription!! I don't have to subscribe to use a petrol station.

In my personal scenario, I'd do 95% of my charging at home. I'd only use the fast chargers about once a month to visit family in Cork. But now I'd have to pay 17 per month to be even granted the right of being charged more!

So lets do the maths (based on the rumour), to drive to Cork and back once a month, I'd need to do 5 fast charges and two home charges, so:

5 × 5 + 17 = 42

plus a euro or two for home charging. So about €44

To put that in comparison, you would be looking at about €40 in petrol for a Prius. Without the trouble of having to stop 5 times for 30 minutes!

But even more seriously this has made me realise that by buying a BEV, you are putting the value of your significant investment in the hands of a monopoly! Sure, it might be €17 per month this year, but what is stopping them from increasing it to €50 or €100 per month next year?

Overnight with a flick of a figure, ESB eCars could wipe out the value of your very expensive car!

So I think I'll focus on hybrids for now and look at BEVs again in 5 years when they have long enough range to make this sort of monopoly unnecessary.

You and a lot of other people I think.
I guess there will be no waiting for a charge points, but on the other hand when the cobwebs appear the ice drivers will just start using them so still won't be able to get a charge..

samih

samih wrote: »

I mean how much more than 60 kWh you reckon the batteries will grow to. I don't really see much point in an EV with a 1000 km range for example.

Exactly, and I don't see the point of having more than the 90 Kwh model S what so ever.

A model S can be charged at home in about 4.5 Hrs with 3 phase and optional twin 10 Kw chargers. So this nonsense of not being able to charge at home is getting a bit old now.

Who has to charge @ 16 amps ? I can charge at 32 amps at home if I want.

The AC network will be free for the time being, When I suggested to many people the value of 6.6 kw charging they thought I was mad.

By the time there is many people converting to EV you'll probably be able to buy a 20-30 Kw DC cahrger for not much more than 600 Euro's.

A 32 amp home EVE would charge 100 Kw over several days including daily usage on night rate or charge it for longer for faster charging and it;s ready for the really long trip.

samih

The slow home charging does allow for daily usage for almost everybody and to charge the car enough for the trip to the nearest rapid ahead of a long trip.

Whatever the capacity of the future batteries are, the power consumption of the daily driver should not and will not increase. We are not going to drive three ton trucks capable of towing three ton trailers equipped with 1ton 200 kWh battery in the future. It would not be cost effective. Why would you want the EV to become such wasteful mode of transport?

I reckon in 2020 EV typically has around twice the battery capacity of current cars, about 110 kW of motor power in a car that weigh about the same as today.

BoatMad

Just to address the last two posts

So let's say we begin to top out at 100 kW. ( but fundementally I dont agree, western society is energy greedy, we will want more and the competitive economy will give us ' more' )

To suggest that a 60kw -100 kW can be charged on a 16 A circuit is technically nonsense. Mad-lad we are light years from having widespread accessin existing domestic houses to 3 phase. So nonsensical descriptions of nirvana house charging are just that. Yes I could charge 100kw in a blink of an eye with a plutonium power generator too.

That's leaves the importance of FCP charging. It's a vital piece of EV infrastructure , and ESB ecars think so too as they have switched their priority to fcps.

Buying huge capacity on board chargers is expensive , heavy and inefficient , you build the charging smarts into the charger infrastructure not the car.

I see the charging cost issue as extremely central to the EV decision process, none will buy EVs if they cost as much or more to run then ice cars , no-one

DrPhilG

Someone just posted an esb document on Facebook, states that from April onwards there will be a charge of 30c per minute on fast chargers.

BoatMad

Whatever the capacity of the future batteries are, the power consumption of the daily driver should not and will not increase. We are not going to drive three ton trucks capable of towing three ton trailers equipped with 1ton 200 kWh battery in the future. It would not be cost effective. Why would you want the EV to become such wasteful mode of transport?

As an example of " energy " greed , look at domestic and professional cordless power tools. Each generation has increased battery power. The applications expand to consume that additional power.

The same thing with EVs. As battery technology matures and drops in price we'll see greater and greater demand for more power and the competitive market economy will deliver increasing kWh capacity. Yes there is probably an upper limit , but you could easily justify a huge battery on the basis you home charge only at the weekends for example

BoatMad

DrPhilG wrote: »

Someone just posted an esb document on Facebook, states that from April onwards there will be a charge of 30c per minute on fast chargers.

Wow that crazy , a 20 min charge costing , 6 euros. Nuts.

I've put the 2016 leaf purchase on hold today as I'm investigating a small VW diesel as their are a few incentives going

EV is dead at that type of costings

heliguyheliguy

I would encourage all to post their thoughts Esb ecars facebook

nokia69

BoatMad wrote: »

EV is dead at that type of costings

Its not dead

I'm waiting for a Model 3, but if anything went wrong with my current car I was going to try and pick up a second hand Leaf, that idea looks to be off the table now

but the Leaf is getting an upgrade so is the i3, and there are other better cars in the works that won't need public chargers

my advice to EV drivers is boycott the ESB for home charging and if you can for public charging, also give them a call and tell them why

BoatMad

http://www.esb.ie/electric-cars/electric-car-charging/IT-charging-payment-system.jsp

Contebt currently unavailable

Funny that -ESB shocked by reaction or just updating the page with new " screw you" figures

DrPhilG

BoatMad wrote: »

Wow that crazy , a 20 min charge costing , 6 euros. Nuts.

I've put the 2016 leaf purchase on hold today as I'm investigating a small VW diesel as their are a few incentives going

EV is dead at that type of costings

It still wouldn't kill it for me, but my EV running costs would jump from about €25 to €85.

topmanamillion

Are E cars even the way forward? At the moment they are the best available. But there are other much more economical sources of power like hydrogen. I believe the main stumbling point at the moment, is its a gas and it's difficult to stop it escaping from a tank.
But electricity is far from problem free as this page outlines. The mileage on a solely electric engine is pathetic and the charging time is horrendous. Then if you use quick charging too regularly your engine will burn out and there's another big bill.

heliguyheliguy

Bring on Tesla, free public charging for life.If they ever get in the door.
What excuse is the government giving for holding them up anyway?

Roen

I might have to switch it to eco. Damn it.

BoatMad

heliguyheliguy wrote: »

Bring on Tesla, free public charging for life.If they ever get in the door.
What excuse is the government giving for holding them up anyway?

You're never going to get any sort of national supercharger network here, teslas after vrt and vat are in high BMW territory. People in that bracket don't care about running costs, it's a trival percentage of income ( or their companies income )

Teslas will never be but a minute blip on the Irish EV scene.

BoatMad

topmanamillion wrote: »

Are E cars even the way forward? At the moment they are the best available. But there are other much more economical sources of power like hydrogen. I believe the main stumbling point at the moment, is its a gas and it's difficult to stop it escaping from a tank.
But electricity is far from problem free as this page outlines. The mileage on a solely electric engine is pathetic and the charging time is horrendous. Then if you use quick charging too regularly your engine will burn out and there's another big bill.

EVs infrastructure is here today , hydrogen is 10 years away. By the time any sort of realistic hydrogen car is around, EVs will have 300 mile radius. Electric cars are faster more efficient.

Maybe fuel cell , but it's decades away at the power outputs needed.

Fast charging does not affect modern batteries , especially those with active thermal management.

heliguyheliguy

topmanamillion wrote: »

Are E cars even the way forward? At the moment they are the best available. But there are other much more economical sources of power like hydrogen. I believe the main stumbling point at the moment, is its a gas and it's difficult to stop it escaping from a tank.
But electricity is far from problem free as this page outlines. The mileage on a solely electric engine is pathetic and the charging time is horrendous. Then if you use quick charging too regularly your engine will burn out and there's another big bill.

Fuel cells are cool but they are not economical. electrolysis of water to free hydrogen uses 3 to 4 time the energy that you get back in the fuel cell, so its not nearly as efficient as battery electric. You can always get the hydrogen from propane but then we're just back were we started using fossil fuels so pointless.
For these reasons I don't see fuel cells being more than a specialty option, maybe for long distance trucks, buses trains. ie. heavy duty jobs that batteries don't do well. even so batteries are improving so quickly I don't know.

heliguyheliguy

BoatMad wrote: »

EVs infrastructure is here today , hydrogen is 10 years away. By the time any sort of realistic hydrogen car is around, EVs will have 300 mile radius. Electric cars are faster more efficient.

Maybe fuel cell , but it's decades away at the power outputs needed.

Fast charging does not affect modern batteries , especially those with active thermal management.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai

nokia69

heliguyheliguy wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai

sorry guy that car is a joke, beyond a few government paid for schemes you won't see them in large numbers, the more you look in to it the less it makes sense

sorry I just read your other posts, looks like you know fool cells are a joke

nokia69

BoatMad wrote: »

You're never going to get any sort of national supercharger network here, teslas after vrt and vat are in high BMW territory. People in that bracket don't care about running costs, it's a trival percentage of income ( or their companies income )

Teslas will never be but a minute blip on the Irish EV scene.

I'm not so sure about that, with the high range of Teslas they don't need many charging locations

also more people are coming to the conclusion the EVs are better cars with a better driving experience, with the nice bonus of lower running costs

DrPhilG

nokia69 wrote: »

the nice bonus of lower running costs

Not if the ESB keep up their shyte...

nokia69

topmanamillion wrote: »

Are E cars even the way forward? At the moment they are the best available. But there are other much more economical sources of power like hydrogen. I believe the main stumbling point at the moment, is its a gas and it's difficult to stop it escaping from a tank.
But electricity is far from problem free as this page outlines. The mileage on a solely electric engine is pathetic and the charging time is horrendous. Then if you use quick charging too regularly your engine will burn out and there's another big bill.

fool cells are a scam, is just a joke, its for people who don't understand science or efficiency

anothernight

nokia69 wrote: »

fool cells are a scam, is just a joke, its for people who don't understand science or efficiency

I'll be sure to tell that to my Engineering course coordinator, who is only supervising MSc projects on fuel cells atm.