ESB public charging plans

BoatMad

nokia69 wrote: »

I'm not so sure about that, with the high range of Teslas they don't need many charging locations

also more people are coming to the conclusion the EVs are better cars with a better driving experience, with the nice bonus of lower running costs

The tesla population in this country will amount to a few fan boys, people that will spend 80K -130 K on a car, most of those will buy a " quality " ICE as the running costs are irrelevant to them and they want absolutely no inconvenience

the running costs of EVs are purely a function of the costs that in ireland a monopolistic energy provider decide, at present given the rumours, it would suggest that they are narrower the gap with diesel to the point that given the higher pricing of EVS, it would be financial madness to buy an EV

BoatMad

anothernight wrote: »

I'll be sure to tell that to my Engineering course coordinator, who is only supervising MSc projects on fuel cells atm.

god help us if MSc's are working on fuel cells,

nokia69

anothernight wrote: »

I'll be sure to tell that to my Engineering course coordinator, who is only supervising MSc projects on fuel cells atm.

tell him, I would hope he knows already, but so long as he gets paid I doubt he cares

I bet plenty of the engineers at Toyota know all about the problems with fool cells, but as long Toyota or the Jap government pay their way who cares

Feck it, if you pay me I would work on the problem too, its the perfect problem, I could milk that money for years

I just don't believe that fool cells will ever be a major % of the car market, they may get used in some niche applications, the Germans build a cool fuel cell submarine, NASA used them on the shuttle, I think there is a fuel cell drone, and who knows plenty of other things, so yeah it should still be worked on and studied

its not the fuel cell idea itself, the problem is the Hydrogen, if you could make a Methane fuel cell then you would really have something, a while back there was talk of methanol fuel cells, which would have been great

nokia69

BoatMad wrote: »

The tesla population in this country will amount to a few fan boys, people that will spend 80K -130 K on a car, most of those will buy a " quality " ICE as the running costs are irrelevant to them and they want absolutely no inconvenience

the running costs of EVs are purely a function of the costs that in ireland a monopolistic energy provider decide, at present given the rumours, it would suggest that they are narrower the gap with diesel to the point that given the higher pricing of EVS, it would be financial madness to buy an EV

I don't know, it all depends on the price of the Model 3, right now I think the Leaf is a great car, and its only going to get better, and so will the other EVs

also I think there are more people than you realise waiting on the Model 3

BoatMad

nokia69 wrote: »

I don't know, it all depends on the price of the Model 3, right now I think the Leaf is a great car, and its only going to get better, and so will the other EVs

also I think there are more people than you realise waiting on the Model 3

firstly based on Teslas history of delivery, the Model 3 will be 1-2 years late, and even later getting to europe.

secondly in that timescale, we will have other serious contenders in that price bracket, Audi being one. BMW will be another. Teslas will have very serious competition from the existing car companies, with their well oiled marketing machine and extensive dealer networks. Teslas has had a free run at the upper end of the EV market and that will end and end reasonably soon.

Nissan, are loosing money hand over fist on Leafs, and they are running at a fraction of what their original build capacity was projected. SO we shall see, getting 60 kw battery into a leaf by 2018 at similar pricing to today will be a feat that they may not achieve.

As for the model 3 itself, it will be a steel vehicle and with less range then the Model S, so owners will be forced to compromise.

Given the effect of VRT and VAT on new cars, this will be a luxury car , competing with higher end Audis and BMWs. Thats not the hunting ground of EVs at present in ireland. Absolute savings in fuel is not a big decision factor in these market sectors

And we have yet to see the effects of the ESB pricing policy on EV sales, it could do serious damage to the EV sector in Ireland.

nokia69

I don't think the Model 3 will be as late as you think, its tied to production from the giga factory, so its different to the Model X, of course we have no idea when it will reach the UK or Ireland

I just want a 200 mile EV, I don't really care if I buy it from Nissan, Tesla or BMW

a 200 mile Leaf would be sweet

BoatMad

I just want a 200 mile EV, I don't really care if I buy it from Nissan, Tesla or BMW

yes but you're a fan boy ( because only a fan boy would say that ) and thats not an accurate market representation .

nissan is not competing with Tesla and never will, BMW/Audi etc are competing ( or will ) against Tesla.

re Tesla

http://uk.businessinsider.com/why-tesla-always-overpromises-and-underdelivers-2015-10?r=US&IR=T

nokia69

I'm an Ev fan boy, yes

I really do like Tesla but in the end I don't mind if they go bust or get bought, whatever, EVs are here to stay, Musk has changed the industry

Musk gets plenty of credit for the Model S, but IMO Carlos Ghosn should get just as much for building an affordable EV, they may not have broke even on the Leaf yet but they will in the end

the ESB, the fool cell clowns, the petrol heads ect, they don't matter they won't stop the EV

BoatMad

nokia69 wrote: »

I'm an Ev fan boy, yes

I really do like Tesla but in the end I don't mind if they go bust or get bought, whatever, EVs are here to stay, Musk has changed the industry

Musk gets plenty of credit for the Model S, but IMO Carlos Ghosn should get just as much for building an affordable EV, they may not have broke even on the Leaf yet but they will in the end

the ESB, the fool cell clowns, the petrol heads ect, they don't matter they won't stop the EV

I think most people that think about this, will accept that the ICE in personal transport has a finite life , the steam engine had one too. The issue is of course the slope of the decline of ICE.

I dont think Tesla has changed the car industry far from it, but he has crafted a very nice target on the back of teslas head, for other car companies to aim at. Car companies with decades of experience of building and selling automobiles.

we shall see..... ( where now Compaq.....)

heliguyheliguy

I don't know, I wouldn't write off any of the new tech yet, its early days and anything could happen. Will we see fusion cars? most likely not but you never know. I certainly would not have predicted 10 years ago that today we would have electric airplanes (admittedly prototypes) but actual real in service wireless charging buses and battery powered container haulers, who knew!

BoatMad

heliguyheliguy wrote: »

I don't know, I wouldn't write off any of the new tech yet, its early days and anything could happen. Will we see fusion cars? most likely not but you never know. I certainly would not have predicted 10 years ago that today we would have electric airplanes (admittedly prototypes) but actual real in service wireless charging buses and battery powered container haulers, who knew!

battery powered vehicles are about 100 years old at this stage.


any " new" tech will have an enormous lead time to market , compliance issues if there are safety concerns etc. we cant even get fusion stable in the lab never mind a car!.

The issue isn't technology , its delivery of the technology, which is all about engineering not science

heliguyheliguy

BoatMad wrote: »

( where now Compaq.....)

eh! hp bought them fxxked them up and flushed the fallout.
They were leading the way with portable smart devices till hp got involved, talk about lost opportunities.

BoatMad

heliguyheliguy wrote: »

eh! hp bought them fxxked them up and flushed the fallout.
They were leading the way with portable smart devices till hp got involved, talk about lost opportunities.

the key thing is that compaq will the innovator in portable computing , failed to capitalise on the market share and was overtaken by faster and more agile competitors many of whom were already mainstream ( like lenovo etc)

Even Apple did remarkably well to survive

Apple are building an electric car, thats serious rivalry for Musk.


we shall see....

nokia69

BoatMad wrote: »

Apple are building an electric car, thats serious rivalry for Musk.


we shall see....

I hope so they have the capital to do something really great, but they would need a giga factory, in the end its all about the battery

BoatMad

nokia69 wrote: »

I hope so they have the capital to do something really great, but they would need a giga factory, in the end its all about the battery

richest company in the world , their financial resources dwarfs Musk, again we shall see......

They dont need a Giga factory , Li battery tech is now mainstream and there is huge surplus manufacturing capacity world-wide.

other then continuity of supply , no-one needs a battery factory nissan are using LG for example.

in retrospect Giga was conceived when there was serious doubts about battery manufacturing capacity and security of supply, thats proved to be false and the arguments for Giga are much weaker then heretofore

I suspect Apple would just buy a facility anyway

samih

Anyway, back to the topic.

If the 30 cent/min is correct that sounds pretty rich. For example the Scandinavian Charge and Drive charges of 20 cent/min for rapid DC charging for pay as you go customers. For that you don't need any recurring monthly charge, just download a mobile app and register your credit card details. The app is then used to initiate and stop charging.

Actually, you don't even need an app. It's SMS based service and is getting added to you phone bill?

DrPhilG

I've said that elsewhere too.

The only way that a 30c/minute charge would be acceptable is if that was the PAYG rate without a monthly subscription.

Paying that on top of the €17 monthly would be outrageous.

There should be enough options that means nobody should have to spend over €50 a month on public charging by whatever combination of monthly charge and per minute charge (which shouldn't exist at all, it should be per kwh).

I don't do drastically high mileage, but if the proposed €17 + 30c/minute comes in then I'll be facing nearly €70 extra on my running costs and a few scary moments in the future as I try to avoid public charges.

samih

Good thing about per minute charging is though that it will penalise drivers who insist on charging for 50 minutes to get to 100 percent at DC chargers. But the slower your car chargers the more it will cost you per km which is not great. That's why I suggested earlier that there should be some initial window of charge per kWh used after which price per minute would apply.

If you need 10 minutes to get home it makes sense to only charge for 10 minutes. That means that many more cars can be charged at peak times as the posts are vacated at timely manner.

Villain

Am I correct in saying not all FCP offer the same power? I believe some are turned down.

bk

nokia69 wrote: »

also more people are coming to the conclusion the EVs are better cars with a better driving experience, with the nice bonus of lower running costs

DrPhilG wrote: »

Not if the ESB keep up their shyte...

I've always been interested in EV's and being a geek I've been keeping an eye on their development. A few weeks ago I got the chance to ride in a Nissan Leaf and I was blown away with how great the driving experience was and I started very seriously consider buying one.

Not only environmentally friendly, but a fantastic driving experience and low running costs.

But this move by ESB eCars has completely blown the running costs out of the water and it just isn't worth it any more.

As for 30 cent a minute, I hope that is pay as you go. Even then it makes the EV's running costs more expensive then a Prius. Again the trip to Cork and back:

5 fast charges × 30 minutes × .3 = €45

Versus €40 for a Prius.

If you have to add €17 subscription on top of that!!! Madness

As an aside, I'm a great believer that we can use new technology to reduce our impact on the environment. But in order to be successful that technology can't just be environmentally friendly, most people don't care enough, it also has to be better and cheaper then the old dirty technology it is replacing in order to gain mainstream take up.

For example I recently replaced every light bulb in my home with LED lights and it has been a fantastic success. Not only am I helping the environment, reducing the power my lights use by 90%, but they are also way better then the old lights (nicer light quality, brighter, instant on and only need to be replaced every 15 to 20 years versus yearly) and best of all they have paid for themselves in just 9 months with electricity cost savings and are now saving me money every month. Win - win - win

In order for EV's to be successful, they need to do the same. Yes they are environmentally friendly, the driving experience of them is fantastic, but they struggle on the convenience factor and now the cost side is looking very dodgy.

Villain

At current fuel prices my wife's Diesel costs €6 per 100km, I know fuel prices will increase in time but using public charge points need to be far cheaper than other fuels while all the others issues exist for EV's including low range.

samih

What you have to realise with the costing is that the public charging is not really meant to be used daily. The EV most conveniently suits to a person that can have guaranteed access to private charging be it at home or at work. When I ordered I knew that the charges are coming and actually bought as soon as possible to use the free charging while it last(s/ed).

After the initial buzz of being able to drive all around Ireland for "free" fizzled out our Leaf is mainly used for daily commute where it works great and I have only used rapid charging once in the past month. Leaf is a class A rush hour car and the mind boggles when stopped at light the only thing you hear is a hundred ICEs idling all around you. With home charging my daily 44 km commute costs less than 70 cent a day for electricity. I'm stuck in traffic for 2 hours a day and fail to see any ICE being able to compete with that even with start/stop tech. Frankly I find that all the traffic around me literally stinks now. The Leaf is such a great vehicle for this type of usage to be in.

This weekend we'll be heading for a weekend away. I expect to have to rapid charge about 6 times, so it would cost me 35ish euro if the charges for charging were there there. As far as I'm concerned that's not bad for a 700 km round trip, let alone if it's combined with the fact that it costs me less than 20 EUR a month for all the rest of my driving. IMO, a EV is a winner for me.

Padraig Mor

The more I think about it, the more I'm convincing myself that this pricing model is either captive market price gouging by ESB (most likely), or a deliberate ploy to create so much negative reaction the section heads at eCars can go to the ESB bosses and say "unworkable".

If ESB wish to encourage home charging, and use of FCPs only when necessary, all they need to do is charge the home night rate - say 8 cents per kWh. I charge at work during the week but usually use a FCP once or twice over the weekend. Why? It's free, and that's worth going out of my way for - say 30 mins to get to FCP, charge, and back to where I was. I'd imagine many EV owners have similar usage. Start charging me even 8 cents per unit (about the same as night rate at home) and I'll simply charge overnight at home at the weekend - why would I go out of my way to a FCP, and sit there for 20 mins, if it's saving me nothing? I'd only use FCPs when I NEEDED to - i.e. longer journeys, or maybe a day where I have several smaller journeys. So, if ESB simply need to charge a low rate (8 - 10 cents per unit) to encourage most people to only use FCPs when necessary, why charge 3 times that much PLUS a monthly fee? Plain old gouging! I think the ESB have sat down and come to the conclusion that most EV owners will bitch and moan about it, but will eventually pay the €17 a month in order to have the comfort of knowing they can use the public infrastructure if they wish. And that drivers on longer journeys have no choice but to use FCPs - so let's charge them triple the home rate; they'll have to pay it if they want to get home!

I'd hazard a guess that many recent new EV drivers (myself included) couldn't give a toss about the environmental impact or lack thereof of our vehicles - it comes down to cold hard numbers. For most, EVs need to be significantly cheaper overall to run than ICEs to make the inconvenience of the switch (limited range, charging stops etc) 'worth it'. These new charges may not make EVs more expensive than ICEs overall, but it invariably pushes the figures closer to a number where the EV just isn't worth it.


There's also another issue for the many recent EV owners on PCP plans (myself included again) - this price gouging by the ESB is bound to affect the residuals of our cars, leaving many with less equity than they hoped / expected. Personally, I'm going over my PCP agreed mileage big style - I didn't think this would be a huge issue as the expected equity would cancel out the lower value of the car after 3 years. However, if the residuals take a hammering and I hand the car back, I may have to fork out substantial sums for excess mileage. As by far the biggest seller of EVs here, surely Nissan are fuming?

Villain

http://www.oreilly.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/ESB-ecars-subscription-offer_031115_1.pdf

That is the PDF if people haven't seen it.

DrPhilG

Samih and Padraig Mor

I agree with you both.

I just sat down and calculated the figures based on my old ICE costs, and potential EV costs if the current plan comes into effect (€17 plus 30c/minute).

I'll still be €2k a year better off. Even with poor resale value by the time I trade in 4 years time I'll have saved over €8k compared to an ICE and my Leaf was only about €1500 more expensive to buy than a similar age/spec diesel.

We were thinking of holding onto this car after we upgrade anyway, as we are currently a 1 car household but would like to have 2. If the resale value is not worth it, we'll keep it and buy a longer range EV next time.

Longer range would mean I'd only use the public charging maybe once a month. Currently it's at least once a week.

BoatMad

Villain wrote: »

http://www.oreilly.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/ESB-ecars-subscription-offer_031115_1.pdf

That is the PDF if people haven't seen it.

Wow. Talk about killing the EV market.

17 euros plus a 30c per minute is an incredible cost. Especially with charge tapering , charging by the minute is just nuts , from about 60% onwards actual charge rate means you are posting 4-8 times the current daily at home unit rate. - wow just wow

Goodbye EV market in Ireland

samih

Villain wrote: »

http://www.oreilly.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/ESB-ecars-subscription-offer_031115_1.pdf

That is the PDF if people haven't seen it.

So the new users will need to cough up 16.99 a month from January and will get free access to all the chargers until April. By April more payment option will become available but by default it will be 16.99/month.

The existing users will need to cough up 16.99/month or one of the new unknown options from April.

On street AC charging (fast) will be included to fixed 16.99 until end of 2016. Fast DC (rapid) charging will be 0.30/min from April unless you'll avail one of the future plans.

Sounds about right. It would be cool to get use of chargers at your domestic night rate but due to reasons stated previously the chargers have high capital cost so it won't happen unless the EVs become so ubiquitous that chargers are considered like street lightning etc.

And rapid charging at 0.30 while having to cough up 16.99 is a very bad deal for cars with a relative low charge rate (pretty much all the current cars).

Villain

Villain wrote: »

Am I correct in saying not all FCP offer the same power? I believe some are turned down.

I think there might be slight variances but nothing major. Cold will add 10-15 mins to charge times, that is, a cold battery though it;s unknown how it will effect the 30 kwh battery yet.

As the battery ages charging also slows down on the fast charger, 3.3 & 6.6 Kw times would probably not change even at end of life 70% battery capacity.

samih

DrPhilG wrote: »

Samih and Padraig Mor

I agree with you both.

I just sat down and calculated the figures based on my old ICE costs, and potential EV costs if the current plan comes into effect (€17 plus 30c/minute).

I'll still be €2k a year better off. Even with poor resale value by the time I trade in 4 years time I'll have saved over €8k compared to an ICE and my Leaf was only about €1500 more expensive to buy than a similar age/spec diesel.

We were thinking of holding onto this car after we upgrade anyway, as we are currently a 1 car household but would like to have 2. If the resale value is not worth it, we'll keep it and buy a longer range EV next time.

Longer range would mean I'd only use the public charging maybe once a month. Currently it's at least once a week.

You have pretty much the same plan than myself although I'm planning to keep my car until 2020 unless something really interesting comes to market before then and the price of the current car hasn't fallen to nil. Even the expensive PAYG doesn't really affect the future usage when needed, just that DC won't be used unless it absolutely cannot be avoided.

Villain

Villain wrote: »

http://www.oreilly.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/ESB-ecars-subscription-offer_031115_1.pdf

That is the PDF if people haven't seen it.

Where was this posted ?