ESB public charging plans

shanemkelly

Villain wrote: »

http://www.oreilly.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/ESB-ecars-subscription-offer_031115_1.pdf

That is the PDF if people haven't seen it.

BoatMad wrote: »

Wow. Talk about killing the EV market.

17 euros plus a 30c per minute is an incredible cost.

Goodbye EV market in Ireland

Yes, the financial advantages of an EV will be obliterated if this is true! And given the probable inevitable drop in new EV sales as a result, us existing EV owners will most likely need to invest in a lot of Vaseline & pain killers for future "treatment"...

Ah come on now lads, the average distance travelled in Ireland is 16 Kms daily.

Most charging will be done at home.

If I make the odd trip to the West or South West and wanted to take the Leaf, I'm still saving a fortune over petrol/Diesel/hybrid. Even if it costs me 100 Euros in fast charging.

So the attitude here now is, "If I have to pay for charging I will go back to diesel" ?

I don't condone per minute billing because when the battery is cold Fast charging is slower, also an ageing battery will charge slower and slower as it ages further but the fact remains, most charging will be done at home.

shanemkelly

Deleted User wrote: »

So the attitude here now is, "If I have to pay for charging I will go back to diesel" ?

I think it's about time they started charging for charging, but the monthly standing charge will (in my case) most likely mean only charging at home & work (130km minimum daily commute) & the ICE for anything outside of that.

I imagine new EV sales will fall because of this (if true).

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah come on now lads, the average distance travelled in Ireland is 16 Kms daily.

Most charging will be done at home.

If I make the odd trip to the West or South West and wanted to take the Leaf, I'm still saving a fortune over petrol/Diesel/hybrid. Even if it costs me 100 Euros in fast charging.

So the attitude here now is, "If I have to pay for charging I will go back to diesel" ?

I don't condone per minute billing because when the battery is cold Fast charging is slower, also an ageing battery will charge slower and slower as it ages further but the fact remains, most charging will be done at home.

this attitude really annoys me, its a version of " I'm all right jack"

the fact is mad_lad, that people buy cars too do far more then a daily commute.

The second is the concept of fairness, and these charges are not " fair", they are exceeding expensive, with charge tapering , you will be spending 6-8 times the units rate using an FCP.

Also even low FCP users, will still be paying 17 euros a month, for essentially nothing

so stop with the 16 km, and deal with the fact that these costings will kill EV usage , the fact is that EVs are terrible buys at present for anyone doing 16 km a day, these are not EV users, an EV is justified where you are forced tho do much higher mileage , as the fuel savings represent a clear savings.

or rather they " did" make sense , they do not now.

samih

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ah come on now lads, the average distance travelled in Ireland is 16 Kms daily.

Most charging will be done at home.

If I make the odd trip to the West or South West and wanted to take the Leaf, I'm still saving a fortune over petrol/Diesel/hybrid. Even if it costs me 100 Euros in fast charging.

So the attitude here now is, "If I have to pay for charging I will go back to diesel" ?

I don't condone per minute billing because when the battery is cold Fast charging is slower, also an ageing battery will charge slower and slower as it ages further but the fact remains, most charging will be done at home.

Indeed. On the positive side this will definitely stop any people abusing the DC chargers in the future so one will always be available when needed.

BoatMad

us existing EV owners will most likely need to invest in a lot of Vaseline & pain killers for future "treatment"...

and get used to a constant , " bent over" walking gait.

bk

bk wrote: »

As for 30 cent a minute, I hope that is pay as you go. Even then it makes the EV's running costs more expensive then a Prius. Again the trip to Cork and back:

5 fast charges × 30 minutes × .3 = €45

Versus €40 for a Prius.

If you have to add €17 subscription on top of that!!! Madness

But most of you driving will be done at home .

The Prius can't run on electricity which costs much less than petrol for all your trips you don't need to use the public chargers.

200 a year for rental and motor tax on the Leaf is still less than I paid for motor tax on the Prius !

DrPhilG

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So the attitude here now is, "If I have to pay for charging I will go back to diesel" ?

I don't get that either.

As I said in my previous post, even with the ESB gouging plans I'm still €2k a year better off, and I much prefer the driving experience.

I want to fight these charges (a) to save money and (b) because they are unfair.

They will not stop me from returning to ICE.

Although for my once a year Donegal to Cork trip I would consider renting an ICE for the week. The cost of charging added to the number of stops involved in such a long single trip, plus the effect on my car of adding 700 miles and doing multiple fast charges in one go might make a few hundred euro on car hire plus diesel worth thinking about.

BoatMad

samih wrote: »

Indeed. On the positive side this will definitely stop any people abusing the DC chargers in the future so one will always be available when needed.

yes with grass growing up through it and ICEs parked in the bays cause an EV wasn't seen there for weeks

bk

Deleted User wrote: »

But most of you driving will be done at home .

The Prius can't run on electricity which costs much less than petrol for all your trips you don't need to use the public chargers.

Not in my case. I live 3km from work and enjoy walking to and from work every day (almost as fast as driving at peak time and good exercise). Even if I did drive (bad weather) it would be a 6km roundtrip only!

So most of my driving would be weekend. Monthly trip to Cork, plus most weekends I head to Wicklow, the Mournes, etc. for hiking.

So in reality, if I did buy a leaf, most of my charging (as a percentage of km's covered, not time spent charging) would actually be public fast chargers.

I suppose thinking about my usage, a BEV simply makes no sense. Not with this new pricing anyway.

Would anybody have recommendations on Hybrids to look at? Is Prius really the only option? Probably look at something second hand, 3 or more years old. Thanks

samih

bk wrote: »

Not in my case. I live 3km from work and enjoy walking to and from work every day (almost as fast as driving at peak time and good exercise). Even if I did drive (bad weather) it would be a 6km roundtrip only!

So most of my driving would be weekend. Monthly trip to Cork, plus most weekends I head to Wicklow, the Mournes, etc. for hiking.

So in reality, if I did buy a leaf, most of my charging (as a percentage of km's covered, not time spent charging) would actually be public fast chargers.

I suppose thinking about my usage, a BEV simply makes no sense. Not with this new pricing anyway.

Would anybody have recommendations on Hybrids to look at? Is Prius really the only option? Probably look at something second hand, 3 or more years old. Thanks

A plain old petrol/diesel would probably work in your case then?

samih

So it appears that there is quite a big division how the new plan is received between current and potential future EV drivers. That does not bear well as it most likely will cause many drivers not to choose an electric even if it actually would suit them perfectly.

Compared to Netherland's Fastned network the pricing in Ireland seems very similar. There the fixed price is €12 month but it costs 0.35/min to rapid charge. They also have unlimited plan where about €100/month buys unlimited usage. I'm hoping that ESB will announce something similar here too in April for the folk that expect to rapid charge every day.

Building a charging network is not free so getting electricity at the night rate on DC chargers cannot happen.

BoatMad

Building a charging network is not free so getting electricity at the night rate on DC chargers cannot happen.

Tarrifs could have been introduced on a step basis, over time building to a comprehensive pricing structure with different models to suit different users, why hit everyone with the worst case scenario , The ESB can introduce whoever tarrif it likes, if it wants to

1. electricity should only be sold on a usage basis, just like petrol and diesel, paying for " access" is a nonsense rip-off

2. per KWh charging should be the ONLY way to charge , otherwise you penalise the slower older car, the car with less efficient charging and taper charging means you pay huge multipliers as you proceed from about 50% onwards, no charger actually delivers full charge rate over the charge period , hence users charging from 60-80% are in effect paying 4-6 times more then a user charging from 20%-40%

3. why should new users get no free allowance period, and existing users get on free till april. yet existing owners have benefitted from years ( 1 -3_) of free access, it should be the other way round, new EV owners should get say 1 year free FCP, while existing users start paying sooner


this is a fundamentally poorly taught out plan, irelands EV usage is a long way behind many european countries , yet this will just kill EV take-up. ( and effect residuals too )

whats next, restrictions in night rate ( thats already being talked about anyway ) , basically EVs can be shafted by a single supplier


Its not looking good . not good at all

bk

samih wrote: »

A plain old petrol/diesel would probably work in your case then?

Probably, from a pure economic perspective.

Though I would like to at least try and do my part in improving the environment. In particular as an Asthmatic I'm particularly concerned about the high levels of NOX pollution in our cities, I think it is a very serious problem (we have one of the highest rates of Asthmatics in the world) and it needs to be tackled.

Also I really enjoyed driving in the Leaf, it was an incredibly smooth, quiet and easy ride, with an easy to use automatic. I'm the furthest thing from a motorhead, I like the idea of a technology sophisticated, easy to drive car.

I wonder would something like a Prius give a somewhat similar experience?

samih wrote: »

Building a charging network is not free so getting electricity at the night rate on DC chargers cannot happen.

True, but I think it is far too early for them to be charging so much. It could very well kill off this new technology in Ireland at least.

The government heavily subsidises every aspect of transport infrastructure in Ireland. Dublin Bus, Irish Rail, Dublin Bikes, even the roads and motorways are all very heavily subsidised by the government (from our taxes).

It is just the reality of infrastructure. I think the government should absolutely subsidising the build out and maintenance of the charging network. It would be money well spent on a technology that helps reduce our impact on the environment, helps with our Kyoto obligations (which we currently look like missing!), helps reduce our NOX emissions, potentially saving a great deal on healthcare costs, etc.

It is too early to be charging so much and too much uncertainty around how much they might charge in future.

BoatMad

It is just the reality of infrastructure. I think the government should absolutely subsidising the build out and maintenance of the charging network. It would be money well spent on a technology that helps reduce our impact on the environment, helps with our Kyoto obligations (which we currently look like missing!), helps reduce our NOX emissions, potentially saving a great deal on healthcare costs, etc.

I suspect , its simply a desire for the esb to monetise and sell off the charger infrastructure , they dont really care about the EV market in reality

samih

BoatMad wrote: »

I suspect , its simply a desire for the esb to monetise and sell off the charger infrastructure , they dont really care about the EV market in reality

...and that may be the real driver behind this. I suspect that ESB really expected EVs to catch on much quicker than they did and that we would have at least 10 times as many vehicles on the road by now.

If they don't start charging at this stage for something approaching the cost of running the network I'm afraid that the network and the current drivers will just be left to die a horrible slow death.

BoatMad

If they don't start charging at this stage for something approaching the cost of running the network I'm afraid that the network and the current drivers will just be left to die a horrible slow death.

I figure the esb have now decided that EVs have failed in ireland, take-up has been tiny. They have now no stomach for a long term 5-10 year development strategy . They have decided they need to unload the charger infrastructure before its obvious the market is dead, ( because then its infrastructure is worthless ). SO an aggressive monetisation policy followed by sale. remember a huge amount of the capital was public money.

The end result will probably be "left to die a horrible slow death" in any case

baktag

its all here :http://www.oreilly.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/ESB-ecars-subscription-offer_031115_1.pdf




This subscription option will be introduced for all new EV drivers in Nissan dealer showrooms from
9th November 2015, where it will be possible to sign the customer up, in a streamlined process to
also avail of the current free home charger offer. This allows all recharging and access solutions to be
set up in time for their January vehicle delivery. These
a monthly
subscription fee of €16.99 for which they will receive:
Complete network access
Use of:
75 urban and inter‐urban fast chargers
charging network in Northern Ireland means that All‐Island
coverage exists and is ready to support freedom to drive electric all over Ireland.
new EV drivers will be asked to pay
900 standard chargers
Energy usage is included for all charging completed on the public infrastructure
RFID access card
24/7 Call Centre support
Note: customers will not be charged until their account is activated in January, or upon delivery of their EV.


 Advanced digital assets will be rolled out at this time. This will include personalised ecar web
portal and enhanced app to include:
o Self‐service account management
o Energy usage analysis
o Monitoring of costs and emission savings o View billing history
o Live charge point map
o Journey Planner

An official statement .


Important news for Ireland’s EV driving community

Dear EV Owner,

Since starting our Electric Vehicle (EV) programme in 2010, ESB has built an extensive Electric Vehicle charging network, comprising almost 1,000 public charge points in the Republic of Ireland. ESB ecars has been a pioneering force behind the development of Ireland’s EV journey and we are proud to be among the most innovative providers of EV charging services in Europe. Working alongside you, with our partners from the car industry and Government, we have laid the foundation for the growth of electric vehicles in Ireland.

As we continue our journey towards cleaner, more economical driving, it’s imperative that our network keeps pace with increased needs and that we continue to improve the service that we provide to you. In this context, in the last 12 months we have:

Added 9 multi-standard fast chargers to expand our network
Progress in resolving the issue of ICE vehicles blocking charging spots
Introduced a 24/7 ‘lo call’ helpline support
Increased levels of charger reliability
Launched a driver app with enhanced functionality
To support your driving experience, it is our intention to provide you with the best possible service. In order for ESB ecars to be able to achieve this, we will soon be introducing, on a phased basis, a payment structure.

Beginning later this month new ESB ecars customers will be asked to sign up to a monthly fee of €16.99 (VAT inclusive) to access the public charging network, with payment coming into effect from January 4th 2016.

This fee will cover:

Free use of all 800+ standard public charge points
Unlimited access to over 70 ESB ecars fast chargers until April 2016 - after which date a 30 cent per minute usage fee will apply
Access to all online and 24/7 call centre supports currently available to ESB ecars customers
Ability to cancel monthly payment without penalty




In addition to this package, ESB ecars will continue to provide new EV drivers with a free home charger, with an approximate value of €900 (providing that they qualify for the SEAI Grant).*



Existing ESB ecars customers will continue to have access to the charging Infrastructure, ICT, Call Centre and Customer Operations until April 2016 at no cost, by which time a payment structure similar to that offered to new ESB ecars customers will be made available to you – as one of a number of options. At that time, we will also be making some important service enhancements.

Critically, as we roll out our payment structure to increasing numbers of new and existing customers, we are also working to expand the choice of price plans that we can offer so that you can select a package closely tailored to your own personal driving needs – whether a heavy or occasional user of our network. We will be engaging with customers and other stakeholders and will be communicating details of these plans beginning in the new year.

Existing EV owners can sign up from April 2016 onwards at www.esb.ie/ecars or by calling our customer help line on 01- 258 3799/1890 372 387.

We will mail you a reminder with more information about those important dates in the coming months.

Safe e-driving.

Gareth Davis

Head of ESB ecars

* Valid until at least April 2016

So same as PDF linked earlier.

DrPhilG

There we go then, all the rumours from the last few days confirmed.

Only thing undecided is the "other plans" to be decides before April.

Shlt.

I have E-mailed someone inside the ESB in relation to this and it seems per minute billing was the only choice available, it's really a lot more complicated than we think.

But wait for April to see what other billing choices there'll be.

DrPhilG

Deleted User wrote: »

I have E-mailed someone inside the ESB in relation to this and it seems per minute billing was the only choice available, it's really a lot more complicated than we think.

But wait for April to see what other billing choices there'll be.

If it has to be per minute rather than per kwh then fair enough. Harsh on those with older cars but OK.

Why make it such a high rate on top of the subscription? If we're having to pay €17 a month before we even plug in then leave the per minute rate the same as a standard day rate, not almost double it.

I'm sure it is complicated but EV drivers are being rinsed here no matter what way you cut it.

pwurple

Just got this email as well, and sent a curt response back. This doesn't affect me directly, I use home and work chargers almost exclusively. But I don't want to see electric vehicles becoming so expensive it's a white elephant. Uptake should be encouraged, how on earth is a 200 euro flat charge going to do that?

Villain

The flat fee is just wrong, the 30 cent per minute is way too high, if they had 20,000 EV on the road and Oil was at $120 a barrel then maybe but before EV have even reached 2,000?? It is a bad bad move

Villain

Deleted User wrote: »

I have E-mailed someone inside the ESB in relation to this and it seems per minute billing was the only choice available, it's really a lot more complicated than we think.

But wait for April to see what other billing choices there'll be.

The only choice available on a "word class" charging infrastructure?? How can other countries do it?

simdan

30cent per minute? Ireland is unreal.. The only country in Europe to charge road tax on evs, now we have to pay €200 per year for public charging and €9 each time you want to fast charge for 30 minutes.

I feel sick and am extremely disappointed

simdan

I am seriously thinking of selling my leaf now.. €9 for 120kms is the same as my old passat diesel. Bastards

Villain

The big question is how can they be persuaded to change this? and always remember there are some fan boys who would drive EV if it was €100 a month charge.