ESB public charging plans

Villain

Quick petition to get ideas on numbers against this http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/rethink-ev-charging-costs

Jaketherake

Ha.
I came on here to ask some questions about the Nissan Leaf as the wife is dragging me in to test drive one at the weekend.
And I kinda liked the idea myself as a green warrior
I was thinking about 20c per KWh would be fair when they brought in charging.
Not a bloody subscription model. And worse, a subscription model PLUS per KW. Not on your nelly.
And the prospect of hardly ever having to charge outside home, so not having the subscription, but one day being out and about and charge running out and then not being able to charge publicly is a dangerous one.
Ive just sent an email to the showroom to cancel the test drive.
End of that idea for us.

Villain

Villain wrote: »

The only choice available on a "word class" charging infrastructure?? How can other countries do it?

I will tell people exactly why , it's down to small population massive network investment, maintenance and future charger purchasing, this is my unofficial knowledge of it. If the ESB are not making money then this project will die fast. It doesn't matter how much capital the ESB have it's the operating capital that matters.

We do have a good infrastructure here and with the ability to have live monitoring of chargers I think people underestimate the I.T costs of this alone not to mention the benefits.

Look at the mess of the charging network on the U.K mainland, several different companies, and several access cards and most of them are not cheap and they don't have nearly as good coverage as we do and trying to find a charge point map for all chargers is not possible and nothing that's half accurate.

As I said, I was paying 240 per month in petrol in the 60 mpg prius so if I were to pay for my 10 min top up at the fast charger on the way home at Naas then that would cost me 15 Euro's a week if I were to commute 5 days a week compared to 60 odd for petrol.

So 60 Euro's for electricity and 17 PM add to 77 Euro's, hardly ripping people off.

Jaketherake

Jaketherake wrote: »

Ha.
I came on here to ask some questions about the Nissan Leaf as the wife is dragging me in to test drive one at the weekend.
And I kinda liked the idea myself as a green warrior
I was thinking about 20c per KWh would be fair when they brought in charging.
Not a bloody subscription model. And worse, a subscription model PLUS per KW. Not on your nelly.
Ive just sent an email to the showroom to cancel the test drive.
End of that idea for us.

You seriously think petrol or diesel is cheaper ?

Most of your charging will be done on night rate electricity costing substantially less than petrol or diesel.

Look at my post above , 77 a month to travel 134 Kms daily compared to about 200 in petrol in a 60 mpg prius.

I really wish people got Bi monthly bills for petrol and diesel !

Jaketherake

Deleted User wrote: »

You seriously think petrol or diesel is cheaper ?

Most of your charging will be done on night rate electricity costing substantially less than petrol or diesel.

Look at my post above , 77 a month to travel 134 Kms daily compared to about 200 in petrol in a 60 mpg prius.

Its not about cheaper. Its about having a subscription for something we may only ever use rarely.

And I think you are of the mistaken belief that everyone elses car needs and use are the same as your own.
I can assure you they are not, and are many and varied.

Villain

Deleted User wrote: »

I will tell people exactly why , it's down to small population massive network investment, maintenance and future charger purchasing, this is my unofficial knowledge of it. If the ESB are not making money then this project will die fast. It doesn't matter how much capital the ESB have it's the operating capital that matters.

We do have a good infrastructure here and with the ability to have live monitoring of chargers I think people underestimate the I.T costs of this alone not to mention the benefits.

Look at the mess of the charging network on the U.K mainland, several different companies, and several access cards and most of them are not cheap and they don't have nearly as good coverage as we do and trying to find a charge point map for all chargers is not possible and nothing that's half accurate.

As I said, I was paying 240 per month in petrol in the 60 mpg prius so if I were to pay for my 10 min top up at the fast charger on the way home at Naas then that would cost me 15 Euro's a week if I were to commute 5 days a week compared to 60 odd for petrol.

So 60 Euro's for electricity and 17 PM add to 77 Euro's, hardly ripping people off.

Which is why at the meeting last year I said pull out chargers that are in locations where that don't have proper connectivity. Then at each point have live connectivity to management system and also WiFi access for those charging. Relying on GPRS is crazy!!

Atlantic Dawn

Are there any figures of how much the cost to ESB Networks of the electricity the cars are using per year?

Benny_Cake

What worries me is that the 30c per minute is in addition to a €17 a month subscription. That being the case, if a subscription free option exists I'd imagine the per minute rate will be a lot higher.

If the ESB is going to use it's monopoly to gouge customers, it might be an idea to wait until the number of EVs on our roads increases beyond the tiny numbers at the moment.

I'm happy to pay a reasonable price for charging, in fact I think there should be a price. This offer is scandalous though, driving long distances with most EVs involves a level of inconvenience over an ICE and prospective customers will take that into account. We're a one car family so I'll have no choice but to pay, thankfully the majority of my charging is done at home.

cros13

Please also write to the Commission on Energy Regulation and your TD (if you have the time make an appointment during the constituency clinic).

customercare@cer.ie

Jaketherake

I forgot to add my biggest gripe with this to my last post.

This looks to me like the ESB are trying very hard to dissuade the electric car owners from using any charge points.

I think this is because they have decided that they need to foster an environment where they can argue that the charge points arent being used therefore they require no more added investment to improve the charging network.

I think that the ESB have decided that the electric car charging network isnt working out for them and they want to kill it. This is how they are going to do that.

And without the ESB on board I foresee a lot of electric car owners being stuck with cars they cant sell and cant use properly in a few years.

This is the start of the downward spiral for electric cars and Ive decided now not to get on that train.

nokia69

Jaketherake wrote: »

And without the ESB on board I foresee a lot of electric car owners being stuck with cars they cant sell and cant use properly in a few years.

This is the start of the downward spiral for electric cars and Ive decided now not to get on that train.

na, even if the ESB closed down the public charging network there would still be people who want to drive EVs

this is a set back but electrics are the future

you should still go for that test drive, even if you have no interest in buying a Leaf, if you test drive one you will see that EVs have a bright future no matter what the ESB do

DrPhilG

Benny_Cake wrote: »

What worries me is that the 30c per minute is in addition to a €17 a month subscription. That being the case, if a subscription free option exists I'd imagine the per minute rate will be a lot higher.

Exactly. The option should be €17 monthly OR 30c. At least initially.

hmmm

I think we can write and write to the ESB as much as we want, but we are dealing with a public sector company for whom it makes little or no difference whether electric cars take off or not - they still get paid their good salaries. They don't have a great impetus to make this a success, and I imagine the large monthly subscription is to make sure their fixed costs are covered. They're happy to put out press releases boasting of their green credentials, but they have done little or nothing to stop ICEing or provide speedy repair of charging points - again it makes no difference to them whether EVs succeed or not.

The people we should be writing to are the government, the department of environment, the environmental agencies, and asking them whether they are going to allow the ESB to scupper the use of electric cars in Ireland. It'll be a Minister who will have to explain to his EU compatriots in a few years time why the takeup of EVs is declining in Ireland as the rest of Europe moves in that direction.

Villain

hmmm wrote: »

I think we can write and write to the ESB as much as we want, but we are dealing with a public sector company for whom it makes little or no difference whether electric cars take off or not - they still get paid their good salaries. They don't have a great impetus to make this a success, and I imagine the large monthly subscription is to make sure their fixed costs are covered. They're happy to put out press releases boasting of their green credentials, but they have done little or nothing to stop ICEing or provide speedy repair of charging points - again it makes no difference to them whether EVs succeed or not.

The people we should be writing to are the government, the department of environment, the environmental agencies, and asking them whether they are going to allow the ESB to scupper the use of electric cars in Ireland. It'll be a Minister who will have to explain in a few years time why the takeup of EVs is declining in Ireland as the rest of Europe moves in that direction.

Well I have a meeting scheduled with head of ESB ecars next week and I will be printing the petition and bringing it with me so pass it to anyone who owns an EV or is considering and EV http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/rethink-ev-charging-costs

Jaketherake

Jaketherake wrote: »

This looks to me like the ESB are trying very hard to dissuade the electric car owners from using any charge points.

I think this is because they have decided that they need to foster an environment where they can argue that the charge points arent being used therefore they require no more added investment to improve the charging network.

I think that the ESB have decided that the electric car charging network isnt working out for them and they want to kill it. This is how they are going to do that.

And without the ESB on board I foresee a lot of electric car owners being stuck with cars they cant sell and cant use properly in a few years.

This is the start of the downward spiral for electric cars and Ive decided now not to get on that train.

This is not true at all.

BoatMad

For me the greatest insult is the 30c per minute charging structure. This makes 100km potentially cost more then the equivalent diesel

It also penalises older EVs , those with passive battery cooling and those charging later in the charge cycle. The fancy 150k tesla owner with active battery thermal management can handle huge current intakes , effectively buys kW at a fraction of the price a leaf owner with an old charge restricted battery pays.

It's fundementally unfair.

To justify it saying it was the only thing the ESB could do, is nonsense , it's suggests a completely crappy IT infrastructure, which is utterly no excuse in the 21st century. I work in M2M devices , all this data can easily be handled by a simple GPRS 2G connection to the charger. Anyone saying anything else is lying.

If the ESB couldn't do per unit billing, then they should have waited , left it free and updated the crappy IT infrastructure until they could properly charge per unit

It's a GUBU moment

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

This is not true at all.

It's completely true , with about 1000 active EVs in the Irish market , it's a blip , a pimple. The ESB is trying to save face by " monetising " the network , in advance of sell off of the network. ( the ESB will not be allowed to retain a monopoly supply position )

In the process EV users will be thrown to the wind

Mad-lad you need to wake up and smell the coffee here. Setting a FCP rate that is discriminatory and higher then equivalent diesel for the same journey is just madness. There is no logic in it. The money raised will not cover a fraction of the esbs costs so the economics logic is bunkem

nokia69

BoatMad wrote: »

It's completely true , with about 1000 active EVs in the Irish market , it's a blip , a pimple. The ESB is trying to save face by " monetising " the network , in advance of sell off of the network. ( the ESB will not be allowed to retain a monopoly supply position )

In the process EV users will be thrown to the wind

how do you know thats the reason, in the future EVs will make the ESB millions, they must know this

I just think they are being short sighted and have got their numbers wrong

BoatMad

nokia69 wrote: »

how do you know thats the reason, in the future EVs will make the ESB millions, they must know this

I just think they are being short sighted and have got their numbers wrong

The EV market in Ireland has manifestly failed. Both changes in vrt , motor tax on EVs and a limited seai grant have produced a market that is purely dominated by fan-boy purchases.

The ESB cannot be a long term supplier of charging , EU rules will require it's sell off , the ESB is a wholesale generator of electricity , it cannot be a retailer.

EVs will never make the ESB millions , the market will take decades to mature a d there will be a large proportion of renewables in generation , not controlled by the esb.

Anyway the ESB is a dinosaur belonging to the era of the semi state , inefficient , over paid and a legacy of the foundation of the state.

I think people need to take a deep breath and relax with all the negative comments.

A lot of people are comparing costs to diesel however they're forgetting that most of the charging will be done at home costing about 1.80 for a complete charge on night rate costing substantially less than diesel for most of their mileage.

There are no contracts so if it eases the pain if people know they need to go somewhere they can sign up and get a months worth of usage.

I admit it's not ideal but there are more options coming in April.

Lets see how many people go back to diesel when they sit down and do the "real" Sums.

nokia69

BoatMad wrote: »

EVs will never make the ESB millions , the market will take decades to mature a d there will be a large proportion of renewables in generation , not controlled by the esb.

right now there are about 1000 Evs in Ireland, the average EVs uses maybe 400 euro a year in electricity, the average EV should last at least 10 years, over the life of the 1000 cars that adds up to millions, and yeah I do understand that its not all profit

the Leaf gets a bigger battery soon so does the i3 and no doubt there are other better EVs on the way, so in theory we would have sold the next 1000 EVs faster than the first 1000

as the cars get better it is a business that will be worth millions to the ESB or anyone who give people a fair deal

Villain

Deleted User wrote: »

I think people need to take a deep breath and relax with all the negative comments.

A lot of people are comparing costs to diesel however they're forgetting that most of the charging will be done at home costing about 1.80 for a complete charge on night rate costing substantially less than diesel for most of their mileage.

There are no contracts so if it eases the pain if people know they need to go somewhere they can sign up and get a months worth of usage.

I admit it's not ideal but there are more options coming in April.

Lets see how many people go back to diesel when they sit down and do the "real" Sums.

With respect a huge number of people have issues with what was announced, you may not and that is fine but those who have issues are entitled to air them and I might add many of those raising issues have an EV for many years.

BoatMad

nokia69 wrote: »

right now there are about 1000 Evs in Ireland, the average EVs uses maybe 400 euro a year in electricity, the average EV should last at least 10 years, over the life of the 1000 cars that adds up to millions, and yeah I do understand that its not all profit

the Leaf gets a bigger battery soon so does the i3 and no doubt there are other better EVs on the way, so in theory we would have sold the next 1000 EVs faster than the first 1000

as the cars get better it is a business that will be worth millions to the ESB or anyone who give people a fair deal

Set against 40 million in development costs and ongoing operating costs in the million (s)

But yes a proper EV charging infrastructure , well priced, with significant government incentives to stimulate market development, " may" generate a proper robust functioning marketplace where providers make money. But we are a long way from that , which makes the ESB move inexplicable.

Villain

Villain wrote: »

and I might add many of those raising issues have an EV for many years.

So what's you point with this statement ? many years as being 4 .

Villain

Deleted User wrote: »

So what's you point with this statement ? many years as being 4 .

It means many people who have used the system for many years and invested early in EV cars see huge issues with what has been announced and they should have their opinions respected and not be told to calm down etc.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I think people need to take a deep breath and relax with all the negative comments.

A lot of people are comparing costs to diesel however they're forgetting that most of the charging will be done at home costing about 1.80 for a complete charge on night rate costing substantially less than diesel for most of their mileage.

There are no contracts so if it eases the pain if people know they need to go somewhere they can sign up and get a months worth of usage.

I admit it's not ideal but there are more options coming in April.

Lets see how many people go back to diesel when they sit down and do the "real" Sums.

Mad_lad. I really think your are just a contrarian , you just take up positions opposite to the majority for the sake of it.

Home charging is only one part of the EV experience. We need access to a reliable and reasonable FCP network , to make widespread EV usage a reality. Tesla themselves realise this hence their free supercharger system !!!

Home charging is an interim technology as I've explained. But of course you are impervious to logic.

Stop defending the ESB, you have no idea what's coming in April
A few days ago, you were telling everyone you didnt believe this and to wait fior announcements.

You were utterly wrong in that respect, everything that was leaked has been discovered to be true.


The proposed charging regime is a disgrace and clearly many existing and future EV owners are very right annoyed.

Stop the appeasement mad _lad. The ESB can defend itself I suspect

Villain

Villain wrote: »

It means many people who have used the system for many years and invested early in EV cars see huge issues with what has been announced and they should have their opinions respected and not be told to calm down etc.

You mean people that have had an EV from day 1 expect free electricity to continue or expect to demand to the ESB what they should do to provide EV users with a service that will make them money so they can continue to provide this service in the future and to install more chargers.

People that have had an EV from day 1 have saved the most.

I do accept there needs to be a pay as you go system but as the ESB have said there will be more options after April.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Mad_lad. I really think your are just a contrarian , you just take up positions opposite to the majority for the sake of it.

Home charging is only one part of the EV experience. We need access to a reliable and reasonable FCP network , to make widespread EV usage a reality. Tesla themselves realise this hence their free supercharger system !!!

Home charging is an interim technology as I've explained. But of course you are impervious to logic.

Stop defending the ESB, you have no idea what's coming in April
A few days ago, you were telling everyone you didnt believe this and to wait fior announcements.

You were utterly wrong in that respect, everything that was leaked has been discovered to be true.


The proposed charging regime is a disgrace and clearly many existing and future EV owners are very right annoyed.

Stop the appeasement mad _lad. The ESB can defend itself I suspect

You have no experience with the network at all yet you run it down .

I have had very little bad experience with the network which was overall quiet positive. I have had a few issues with the AC points but over all the experience has been good the last almost year. I expect the locals shopping in Naas and charging won't be doing this any more !

"Home charging is an interim technology as I've explained"

really and your Crystal ball knows this how ? Unbelievable statement.

"Home charging is only one part of the EV experience"

Home charging is by far the most substantial experience.

As I said if I were to use the network daily for 10 mins to get me home for it would cost me 77 Euro's including the monthly charge or 80 Euro's per month if I were to charge in home in total for 677 Kms Compare that to petrol or diesel.

If I then take the really long trip and it costs me 40 - 50 quid a couple of times a year , big deal. moaning whining for nothing.

I want free parking, I want free charging, I want to use the bus lanes, I want free tolls I want I want I want, that's all I ever hear.

Villain

You do realize all those wants you listed are what have Norway and other countries years ahead of Ireland. I have plenty of experience having an EV over a year and I can't understand why you and a small other few can only ever support ESB. My petition has over 180 signatures with many comments highlighting the issues so a few fan boys like you mad lad can praise all you like.