ESB public charging plans

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

You have no experience with the network at all yet you run it down .

I have had very little bad experience with the network which was overall quiet positive. I have had a few issues with the AC points but over all the experience has been good the last almost year. I expect the locals shopping in Naas and charging won't be doing this any more !

"Home charging is an interim technology as I've explained"

really and your Crystal ball knows this how ? Unbelievable statement.

"Home charging is only one part of the EV experience"

Home charging is by far the most substantial experience.

As I said if I were to use the network daily for 10 mins to get me home for it would cost me 77 Euro's including the monthly charge or 80 Euro's per month if I were to charge in home in total for 677 Kms Compare that to petrol or diesel.

If I then take the really long trip and it costs me 40 - 50 quid a couple of times a year , big deal. moaning whining for nothing.

I want free parking, I want free charging, I want to use the bus lanes, I want free tolls I want I want I want, that's all I ever hear.

I base my comments on the threads that have said the ESB can't do kWh charging and issues with gprs. Even today they can't do real time active monitoring of usage and relay that to an app , this is tech101

I've not run down the ESB network per say , but I'm no fan of the ESB in general.

Simply extending your experience as if it's the generality is nonsensical. Most people especially if EVs become more commonplace will need access to a reliable cost effective FCP network

I do 50km per year on average ( across two cars ) , in peak years I did even more , for me that means long trips , I need FCP and at the esbs proposed charges are dearer then diesel.

I , like many don't want free tolls etc , or free parking while charging ( but I see the argument absolutely ) , or free FCP. But I do want a reasonable and fair FCP charging regime. The current one is expensive and unfair.

Personally as an engineer, I have great faith in electric traction. I have little faith in the ESB however.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

I base my comments on the threads that have said the ESB can't do kWh charging and issues with gprs. Even today they can't do real time active monitoring of usage and relay that to an app , this is tech101

I've not run down the ESB network per say , but I'm no fan of the ESB in general.

Simply extending your experience as if it's the generality is nonsensical. Most people especially if EVs be one more commonplace will need access to a reliable cost effective FCP network

I do 50km per year on average ( across two cars ) , in peak years I did even more , for me that means long trips , I need FCP and at the esbs proposed charges are dearer then diesel.

I , like many don't want free tools , or free parking while charging ( but I see the argument absolutely ) , or free FCP. But I do want a reasonable and fair FCP charging regime. The current one is expensive and unfair.

Personally as an engineer, I have great faith in electric traction. I have little faith in the ESB however.

Well I can't fault the network and I used it heavily for 9 months before I got the work charge point.

Without the network I couldn't have an EV, I'm not an ESB fanboy quiet the opposite too but credit where credits Due. I didn't see anyone else try and install a network here because they know the return on investment is not high just like for mobile phone companies and why we pay higher charges on our mobile bills in Ireland is because the return on the investment isn't large compared to the U.K.

BoatMad

To illustrate a point why fcps are useful.

With the leaf , I grabbed the car, after my wife returned from work, to get sone shopping , the car had 40 km range left and shopping is 20 km round trip , on returning home my daughter rang and needed collecting in Dublin as she missed the train,

Now I was faced with a 200 km round trip. , two fast charges later ( coynes and Maldron hotel ) later I was home with the daughter ( 2.5 hours of driving )

Just where would home charging sort this issue. These types of events in various ways occur , two to three times a week.

Today I made two round trips to Dublin, again how would home charging help me there.

See your experience is not others

Villain

Villain wrote: »

You do realize all those wants you listed are what have Norway and other countries years ahead of Ireland. I have plenty of experience having an EV over a year and I can't understand why you and a small other few can only ever support ESB. My petition has over 180 signatures with many comments highlighting the issues so a few fan boys like you mad lad can praise all you like.

yes I am sure you're petition has 180 signatures and I do know you had not got my permission to E-mail me or use the Ecars members E-mails for this spam. I am sure this violates some data protection law.

Norway is a rich country, we can only dream of their wealth, most of their energy comes from renewables while they sell their oil and gas. and they have the cash to throw around.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Well I can't fault the network and I used it heavily for 9 months before I got the work charge point.

Without the network I couldn't have an EV, I'm not an ESB fanboy quiet the opposite too but credit where credits Due. I didn't see anyone else try and install a network here because they know the return on investment is not high just like for mobile phone companies and why we pay higher charges on our mobile bills in Ireland is because the return on the investment isn't large compared to the U.K.

Actually that might be your perspective , but our mobile bills have nothing to do with return on investment. Ireland has one of the highest mobile penetration and one of the highest talk minutes per user in Europe.

The price we pay is because the market will pay it. 3 have said so publicalky several years ago. The U.K. Is lower ( though not much ) because there is greater competition not anything to do with Roi.

It's known as the inelastic price of demand. Or more ordinarily charge what the market can bear.

Average salaries here are higher then the uk. Goods and services cost more consequentially. This is tescos most profitable marketplace for example.

Justifying high charges on the back of Roi or "small island market "is just company speak for " were screwing what we can from you "

Just don't appease them and feed us their own propaganda

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Actually that might be your perspective , but our mobile bills have nothing to do with return on investment. Ireland has one of the highest mobile penetration and one of the highest talk minutes per user in Europe.

The price we pay is because the market will pay it. 3 have said so publicalky several years ago. The U.K. Is lower ( though not much ) because there is greater competition not anything to do with Roi.

It's known as the inelastic price of demand. Or more ordinarily charge what the market can bear.

Average salaries here are higher then the uk. Goods and services cost more consequentially. This is tescos most profitable marketplace for example.

Justifying high charges on the back of Roi or small iskabd market is just company speak for " were screwing what we can from you "

Just don't appease them

You seriously are comparing a 64 million population with 4.5 million ? Where a network needs to cover a geographical area where there are more cattle than people ?

I'm going to watch a movie !:pac:

Benny_Cake

Signed that petition Villain.

For most people, buying a car is a very big deal and most are reluctant to take a risk. The fact is that while EVs are fantastic they do have one drawback currently - if going on a long trip, it will take longer to get there. The pleasure of driving an electric car and the savings more than make up for that as far as I'm concerned, but this charging structure will eliminate a big chunk of the savings and anyone sitting on the fence will simply take what is perceived as the safer option.

I certainly don't agree with waiting to see what else the ESB will offer in the next few months. If there is an option without a subscription it is likely to be significantly more than 30 cents. We need to make our voices heard - this will kill the market for electric cars in Ireland, one which is in it's infancy. As an EV "fanboy", I think that would be tragic.

Villain

Deleted User wrote: »

yes I am sure you're petition has 180 signatures and I do know you had not got my permission to E-mail me or use the Ecars members E-mails for this spam. I am sure this violates some data protection law.

Norway is a rich country, we can only dream of their wealth, most of their energy comes from renewables while they sell their oil and gas. and they have the cash to throw around.

Check your facts there, I didn't email anyone and the reason that person was able to do so was because the ESB CC all users when requesting car details previously!

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

yes I am sure you're petition has 180 signatures and I do know you had not got my permission to E-mail me or use the Ecars members E-mails for this spam. I am sure this violates some data protection law.

Norway is a rich country, we can only dream of their wealth, most of their energy comes from renewables while they sell their oil and gas. and they have the cash to throw around.

Agh the Beal Bocht , the poor mouth, yet we are one of the richest nations around

Indices Difference Info
Consumer Prices in Norway are 30.41% higher than in Ireland
Consumer Prices Including Rent in Norway are 22.77% higher than in Ireland
Rent Prices in Norway are 5.25% higher than in Ireland
Restaurant Prices in Norway are 36.19% higher than in Ireland
Groceries Prices in Norway are 42.08% higher than in Ireland
Local Purchasing Power in Norway is 0.20% higher than in Ireland

Note the purchasing power index , only fractionally higher in Norway

Ireland could do any of those EV benefits without batting an eye financially , were awash with tax receipts.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

You seriously are comparing a 64 million population with 4.5 million ? Where a network needs to cover a geographical area where there are more cattle than people ?

I'm going to watch a movie !:pac:

Good, cause you know nothing about the mobile phone industry in Ireland. A movie is fiction. Whereas i build and write GPRS telemetry systems and have corporate telemetry accounts with three providers

Overheal

Hi, I'm carrying over a bump post from CT:

manonboard wrote: »

I hope its ok to post in this thread. It seemed like i would just be creating a duplicate by starting a new one.

I am a big believer in the theory that the ECar is being held back. Recently I thought they had failed with tesla etc. Maybe they have.

There is simply too much money at stake. Today though, the ESB released charging prices soon to be implemented in an email to the ECar owners currently registered.
17quid per month flat fee + 30c PER MINUTE.
This charge is HUGE. Its not even based on power consumed.
The ridiculous consequence of this is that long journeys, that require several recharges. Basically any cross country driving will now cost 9quid per charge. So in some cases it will be more than petrol, and in most cases, not significantly cheaper.

I was very surprised by this. I was wondering if some forces at play would try stop it from being mass adopted. It looks like that first stroke of the pen to tackle it has been struck. All a force has to do is to make it less attractive price wise to run the car.. and whoosh.. all the benefits that would encourage mass adoption is gone.

I think it a foolish move on ESB part. They could have the entire car market fuelling as their customer.. Yet.. ruin this emerging market.

So yes, I do think there are forces at play that are this very day actively trying to stop the ECar adoption.

OK so as you say, it is not much less expensive than petrol. There are probable causes for that, that I could think of having not followed the ESB or Irish electric at all (so bear my simple nature ) for one, grid power in Ireland is still by and large fuel driven, not renewable driven. Even of those, there are still operating costs and overheads - a windmill is not a set it and forget it device, is complicated to set up, etc etc. as well as that, your infrastructure for charging stations is an added cost, like the overhead of installing NGV compressors at fueling stations in the US (I work for a company right now that engineers NGV components for trucks, so).

Most accurately, isn't ESB privately owned now? I always forget. If Im totally off my rocker just assume I'm discussing New Company A. But anyway, as long as the price in general is cheaper than fuel, and there is still a price differential, that's seen as the good thing. It really depends on how ESB wants to influence the market going forward: obviously if electric was far, far less expensive than more electric vehicles would be demanded by consumers. But as I'm guessing it stands right now there are few cars with even fewer charging stations - and the point of charging time rather than kW would be to disincentivize "range anxiety", the people who will max their battery off during any given charging visit, and encourages drivers to only use the fast-charge that they need. You can always slow-charge at home, or install a fast-charge unit. In addition, the price should not be so low as to not only increase station congestion (look at the petrol station next time the price drops more than 15% in a day, you'll find car queues) but to limit the amount of capital ESB can collect to expand out the system.

Either way, if ESB is the only game in town offering electric charging, then they have a monopoly and like any business with a monopoly (the first smart watch? the first 4k TV? I'd contend EVs are a luxury, not a utility) you're going to tend to set the price of that at the point where supply meets demand at the highest price. That's just rudimentary economics. As long as the option for competitors to enter the marketplace exists, this should not be an issue (eg. the wind people could establish their own stations with more competitive pricing). At which point, the cost of electric charging goes down, the availability is high, and everyone is a bit happier.

These aren't conspiratorial forces, they are market forces. The conspiracies most likely occurred in the US where there was a strong push from oil lobbies intermixed with automakers to end the idea of an electric car. It was absolutely self-serving, but in total hindsight even the modern electric car is problematic and not very carbon friendly when you go to discard the batteries or attempt to recycle them. Even further, had electric cars rolled out in the 90s they would have done so with a lot more risk* and a lot fewer innovations, many of which have been driven by the mobile computing arena where size and capacity became a hard ceiling in electronic design. Compared to commercially available batteries in the 90s, batteries of today have magnitudes more storage density and better performance characteristics.


*(no standards to speak of, until you acquire real world experience with prototypes and field trials. For instance, most NGV components fall under regulations contained in ECE R110, and those regulations are revised on a regular basis to factor in emergent information, such as advances in elastomers; or as was the case this year, ECE R110 was previously used to also regulate LNG, its now been decided LNG needs its own regulation set, especially given its cryogenic nature. 20 onset years of electric car design by enthusiasts surely helped to uncover many a thing that designers of electric cars need to be aware of, such as what types of batteries are road safe, what failure modes need to be considered in the design of the system, etc.)

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

Well I can't fault the network

I can, I still can't get to Belfast, Sligo or Clare without at least four hours of slow charging.

Deleted User wrote: »

I do know you had not got my permission to E-mail me or use the Ecars members E-mails for this spam. I am sure this violates some data protection law.

Actually it was me who sent the email. I'm familiar with data protection law, I certainly don't need your permission to email you. And where there have been breaches of data protection law either another party is at at fault or there's no way to prove a breach. In fact under the current regulations short of a court order (if you wanted to claim harassment) you can't even stop me sending further emails. But I'm polite... and that was a one time deal, I was very reluctant to send that but I decided on balance that it was a net good.

Deleted User wrote: »

Norway is a rich country, we can only dream of their wealth, most of their energy comes from renewables while they sell their oil and gas. and they have the cash to throw around.

Basically all their rapid charging infrastructure has been built and is operated commercially. But fuel taxes are high and with the VRT and VAT exemptions a VW eGolf is the cheapest Golf sold there by about €200.
Ireland spends over 7.7 Billion euro a year importing energy. 7.7 Billion euro..... that's what we're pissing away.

Benny_Cake wrote: »

For most people, buying a car is a very big deal and most are reluctant to take a risk. The fact is that while EVs are fantastic they do have one drawback currently - if going on a long trip, it will take longer to get there. The pleasure of driving an electric car and the savings more than make up for that as far as I'm concerned, but this charging structure will eliminate a big chunk of the savings and anyone sitting on the fence will simply take what is perceived as the safer option.

I certainly don't agree with waiting to see what else the ESB will offer in the next few months. If there is an option without a subscription it is likely to be significantly more than 30 cents. We need to make our voices heard - this will kill the market for electric cars in Ireland, one which is in it's infancy. As an EV "fanboy", I think that would be tragic.

+1

BoatMad

This is not about the ESBs return on investment. That's not how companies price products in a market economy. The ROI threshold would be the lowest price the ESB would set, not the market price.

What you are seeing is two fold. Firstly I beleive the ESB under eu rules cannot be a sole supplier and therefore it wants

(A ) to set pricing high enough to entice commercial retailers into the FCP market.

( b ) improve the marketability , IE to sell its retail EV charger business.

The ESB is a network generator. , it cannot be an electricity retailer , ultimately it just wants to sell wholesale electricity to retail EV charging systems.


Hence it will set the price to make " the pips squeak " ,

All we can hope is for a future competitive landscape and hope the EV revolution doesn't get killed for before we get it.

Via la revolution.

cros13

Overheal wrote: »

grid power in Ireland is still by and large fuel driven, not renewable driven.

Actually at the times most EV's are charging the grid (http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/) is on average around 1/3 renewable, with a lot of the remainder overproduction by fossil fuel burning stations that can't respond to demand quickly and have to be run overnight. We have a single grid and wholesale and retail markets for electricity with pricing publically available.

As a result of the oversupply of grid power any electricity user can avail of a "nightsaver rate" which slashes the per unit retail price by more than 50%. We also have substantial room to grow both renewable production and grid storage of energy but are held back by government regulations, unpriced externalities and market failure. In fact if you put solar panels on your roof in Ireland today, not only are you forced to give excess power to the grid utterly for free, you get fined for not importing enough power and it is illegal for you to sell or give power to your neighbor.

Overheal wrote: »

Even of those, there are still operating costs and overheads - a windmill is not a set it and forget it device, is complicated to set up, etc etc. as well as that, your infrastructure for charging stations is an added cost, like the overhead of installing NGV compressors at fueling stations in the US (I work for a company right now that engineers NGV components for trucks, so).

The cost of production including the capital cost differences for both wind and solar are within 10-20% of market prices today in Ireland (with wind that's receiving government support and solar receiving no support whatsoever) and shaving 5-7% per annum off that number. Grid storage pricing to store that power and provide consistent supply is also going to hit break even in the next 5 years or so for general applications. It's already profitable for small volumes at the top of the market and several companies have announced mWh-class grid storage in Ireland with no government incentives. It's only a matter of time now before market forces do the rest of the work, the question is will government get out of the way?

Overheal wrote: »

Most accurately, isn't ESB privately owned now? I always forget. But anyway, as long as the price in general is cheaper than fuel, and there is still a price differential, that's seen as the good thing. It really depends on how ESB wants to influence the market going forward: obviously if electric was far, far less expensive than more electric vehicles would be demanded by consumers.

Ignoring all the taxation differences and directly comparing them, my EV is five times more efficient than a very efficient diesel. That plus the ability to charge at home (which is where 90%+ of an EV owners charging by volume is done and use there is indistinguishable from any other appliance) makes the commercials very difficult for providers of rapid charging. You have an initial small user base that is highly price sensitive and a large capital cost to make your charging network a viable option for those users. When you get to the kind of EV numbers on the road as Norway where EVs make up 30% of new car sales the commercials start making sense. The chicken and egg problem is how to get to that point.

Plus, consumers are not perfectly rational. Especially with a big ticket item like a car they overestimate risk. And with the behavioral changes such as home charging they tend not to be able to accurately determine TCO.

Overheal wrote: »

But as I'm guessing it stands right now there are few cars with even fewer charging stations

Actually we still have more charging stations than cars. By about 1.4:1. Yet with exactly zero government support ESB needs to meet the operating costs of the network by the end of 2016. Rock meet hard place.

Overheal wrote: »

As long as the option for competitors to enter the marketplace exists, this should not be an issue (eg. the wind people could establish their own stations with more competitive pricing).

Barriers to entry and a demand problem until the market gets enough air to grow, whether that's from the inevitable reduction in vehicle production cost or government not strangling the life out of it with regulations and taxation.

Overheal wrote: »

not very carbon friendly when you go to discard the batteries or attempt to recycle them.

That's not true. There have been a lot of research papers bandied about which say so but the numbers don't hold up. In fact if the grid was 100% coal, comparing a vehicle which was built with both powertrains and you were just dumping the batteries there's still a total lifecycle co2 saving of about 10%, largely down to the massive difference in efficiency. And there are many other minor and major societal and economics side benefits. I can give my sources and calculations on request.

cros13

Overheal wrote: »

And it's worth mentioning again, Ireland imports almost 90% of our energy needs, almost all in fossil fuels. That's a massive balance of payments issue.

BoatMad

Plus, consumers are not perfectly rational. Especially with a big ticket item like a car they overestimate risk. And with the behavioral changes such as home charging they tend not to be able to accurately determine TCO.

Actually , based on true costs , the TCO comparison between say a Leaf and a small diesel , for high mileage use ( the best sceanario for a leaf ) , IE max mileage allowable under pcp , suggests a nominal operating saving of 1800-2400 euros per annum

When you factor in the additional capital costs of a leaf , ( things like larger battery and bigger charger convey no operational financial gain , but merely lift capital costs ) you find payback periods are typical 5 year plus, in essence greater then the pcp ownership period.

Hence justifications of EV ownership on TCO grounds are fallacious , they are usually " concocted " to retrospectively justify the purchase. Or specific advantages are factored in that don't apply generally or may not apply indefinitely ( free workplace charging for example )

This is all part of the fan-boy mentality , it is why I can justify a 27 " iMac that's 4 times the price of a Windoze machine for example. ( or that a half dead " smart " timepiece is worth 700 euros )

Hence the fiction of EV justification based on " fuel " savings. People then start arguing just what ice purchase price the leaf should be compared to further " justify " so called savings.


The fact is the TCO economics suck. However to date you had the benefit of long distance FCP supported travel being essentially free.

Now the economics of that with per minute charging are screwed. Simply taking a direct long journey comparison and examining worse case sceanarios ( which is what accountants do) you are paying potentially more for FCP " fuel " then diesel, or at the very least , similar pricing.

Now the TCOs begin to really suck and we're back to fan-boy arguments.

An EV marketplace based around fan-boys is never going to be more then a pimple.

So

1. either hydrocarbons rocket ( unlikely )
2. EVs drop significantly in price ( unlikely )
3. Electricity fuel prices fall ( unlikely )

Given the 3 , this suggests very low growth in EVs unless unexpected forces enter the equation ( laws , regulations or subsidies )

Home charging is a tech epoch , where current battery size and hence charging requirements are consistent with home power availability. This is temporary , as we will soon see 60 and maybe 100kw cars in the near future , certainly well before home electrical circuits are widely upgraded to three phase.

This means that market growth is predicated on economic fast charging in the future. With proposed charging structures , this seems unlikely

I can easily do the PCP limit of 25,000 Kms a year using the DC network at a fraction of the cost of diesel as I have just shown in many previous posts. And I'm likely to go a few K over this.

I am at 23,100 odd Kms now and most of this has been covered by home charging and a 10 min top up at naas .

80 Euro's PM for 650 Kms a week.

So a 55 Mpg diesel will cost 160 Euro's per month.

So where's the problem ?

You save more with the 30 kwh leaf , for instance if I had the 30 Kwh Leaf and no work charging then the 30 Kwh can get me up and down without using the network saving 77 Euro's PM over the 24 Kwh leaf.

So the savings on me not using the DC network would pay for the additional cost of the 30 Kwh battery over 3 years and it means you also have more range for the longer trip which will be covered by your night rate electricity.

Villain

Villain wrote: »

Check your facts there, I didn't email anyone and the reason that person was able to do so was because the ESB CC all users when requesting car details previously!

Apologies.

bk

Benny_Cake wrote: »

For most people, buying a car is a very big deal and most are reluctant to take a risk. The fact is that while EVs are fantastic they do have one drawback currently - if going on a long trip, it will take longer to get there. The pleasure of driving an electric car and the savings more than make up for that as far as I'm concerned, but this charging structure will eliminate a big chunk of the savings and anyone sitting on the fence will simply take what is perceived as the safer option.

This ++++++

Purchasing a car is a big deal, it is the second biggest financial purchase most people ever make. So most people are extremely conservative when buying a car and want to reduce their risks.

EV's being new technology there are certainly a bunch of unknowns and uncertainties that people face and have to overcome in buying an EV.

- Will the battery degrade badly in time? how much will it cost to replace if it does?

- Will I be able to recharge during long trips? how much will it cost to do so?

Their are certainly benefits to owning an EV. They are environmentally friendly and have a fantastic, smooth, quiet, easy to drive ride experience.

But the downside is that you can add hours to your journey time for long distance trips. For instance add 2 hours extra for Dublin to Cork and back again.

I was very seriously looking at buying a Leaf, almost convincing myself that the inconvenience of owning one was balanced out by the nicer driving experience and greatly reduced costs.

But the long distance costs are now more then diesel, that is madness! It completely eliminates the cost advantage and really makes it incredibly difficult to justify owning one over a much simpler and cheaper nasty Diesel.

It also makes me worry about placing the value of your very significant investment in the hands of a monopoly. What is to stop them from increasing the monthly fee to €50 next year?

It even makes me worry about looking at BEV's again in 5 years. Assuming in 5 years the Leaf has a 200mile+ range, then the FCP's aren't needed for it. But if they ESB are willing to do this, what is to stop them from also penalising at home charging?

Will they drop the night saver rate?

Will they put in place some law requiring people to get a separate meter for their EV and charge more for it then the normal rate?

This all really puts EV's in Ireland on a very questionable footing.

The cost of electricity is not in control of the ESB,

300 mile range Leaf and others will be here in just over 2 years.

Night rate electricity isn't going anywhere and it's most likely that because of the high Kwh consumption we will see reduced costs for EV owners.

I pay 8.5 Cent per Kwh Night and 17.5 Day which is less than the current day rate on regular non night saver, I'm on one of those plans with Bord Gais that is adjusted per consumption so I get a reduced rate, next year I will be re-negotiating .

If I'm in my current job in 2018 when Leaf II arrives or whatever is available then I can charge all 60 kwh in work with the 7 Kw charge point no problem over a 12 hr shift. So I wouldn't be paying for much apart form my days off, though a 200 mile charge would most likely be plenty for most of my days off.

I have not come across anyone yet who said that buying an Ev even crossed their minds when buying a new car, there is no advertisement and no public education so most people don't know about them or realise how good they are.

A trip from Dublin to Cork according to Google Maps is 267 Kms, a 30 Kwh Leaf should do 140 Kms on one charge from home, a 30 min charge will get another 112 Kms from 80% so that's 252 kms probably stretch it out if you need or add 5 mins charging guaranteed.

It would be cheaper to charge from a lower state of charge because the battery charges faster from a lower charge %.

So say 35 mins charge would cost 42 Euro's A 55 Mpg Diesel (real mpg) would cost € 32.62. that's if you have a 55 mpg (per tank) diesel.

However if this Dublin to Cork is once a month or even twice a month you're not calculating all the charging done form home which is costing far more in your diesel.

Remember 20,000 Kms on night rate electricity would cost me 300 Euro's compared to 1,200 In a 55 mpg Diesel at Today's diesel prices.

The larger 30 Kwh battery and 6.6 kwh charger makes a whole lot of sense now.

bk

Mad_Lad, just last week you were saying that the subscription wasn't going to be so bad, just wait and see and you were wrong about that, how can you be so sure that the ESB won't choose to do away with night saver meters or otherwise legislate against EV's. You were already wrong once this week!

However if this Dublin to Cork is once a month or even twice a month you're not calculating all the charging done form home which is costing far more in your diesel.

You are making assumptions about my usage. As I mentioned above, I commute just 6km to work every day and I do that by walking, so I'd do little or no home charging on a daily basis. The vast majority of the driving I'd do (and thus charging) would be long distance at weekends (Cork once or twice a month, Wicklow, The Mournes almost every weekend). So I'd have to use the fcp's quiet a bit, with almost no home charging *

So for my personal circumstances this new charging setup would make it much more expensive to own then a cheap (dirty) diesel or prius.

And you are assuming best case scenario with a 30kwh Leaf that costs €29,000!!!

It seems to me I'll be much wiser to buy a second hand 2010 Prius, which seem to be about €13k and actually have cheaper running costs for my trips to Cork, Wicklow, etc. all while costing 1/3 the cost of your leaf, not having to deal with the headache of sitting around for 2 hours charging.

* I live in an apartment, so I'm not even 100% certain I could get a home charger installed.

I'm not saying this new pricing structure makes EV's uneconomical for everyone, obviously there are certainly people for whom it still makes financial sense (e.g. long daily commute but within the distance of cheap/free home/work charging). But it certainly knocs a lot of people out who might have otherwise be interested and thus shrunk the market for EV's. Which of course will have a knock on effect on the value of your vehicle, even if this pricing structure doesn't effect you.

And then there is the whole point that there is nothing stopping the ESB jacking up prices next year. You are a captive market after all.

I'm increasingly thinking that the best option for the forseeable future is plug in hybrids. Good enough for daily commutes, but don't need to use FCP's for long distance trips and don't need complicated charging infrastructure at home.

homer911

I see the story has made it to Silicon Republic
https://www.siliconrepublic.com/earth-science/2015/11/05/irish-ev-owners-to-be-charged-e16-99-pm-to-charge-at-public-points

nokia69

bk wrote: »

I'm increasingly thinking that the best option for the forseeable future is plug in hybrids. Good enough for daily commutes, but don't need to use FCP's for long distance trips and don't need complicated charging infrastructure at home.

thats what I think we will see, BMW are going into plug in hybrids in a big way, and given their recent problems I expect VW to do the same, not as good as pure BEV but not bad IMO

BoatMad

Yes, the ESB will incentivise plugin hybrids over BEV as these can avoid teh more expensive FCPs, bad idea

nokia69

bk wrote: »

It even makes me worry about looking at BEV's again in 5 years. Assuming in 5 years the Leaf has a 200mile+ range, then the FCP's aren't needed for it. But if they ESB are willing to do this, what is to stop them from also penalising at home charging?

I don't see how they could mess around with home charging

it would be like asking people to pay more for the electricity running their fridge than their TV

BoatMad

nokia69 wrote: »

I don't see how they could mess around with home charging

it would be like asking people to pay more for the electricity running their fridge than their TV

The issue of continuing night rate in ireland has already been discussed and there is active consideration to limiting new takeup

IN teh UK it was done away with and economy 7 was introduced which brought in a 20% cheaper unit for 7 hours

in future its possible that dynamic costs savings may be implemented especially with smart meters, That would render some or all of the night savings inaccessible


There is also the issue of differential tarrifs, Airtricity already have limits in the amount of KWh you can consume at a particular tarrif

Very easy for the esb to price high volume night charging of EV, simply by differential volume based tarrifs

baktag

BoatMad wrote: »

The issue of continuing night rate in ireland has already been discussed and there is active consideration to limiting new takeup

IN teh UK it was done away with and economy 7 was introduced which brought in a 20% cheaper unit for 7 hours

in future its possible that dynamic costs savings may be implemented especially with smart meters, That would render some or all of the night savings inaccessible

my night meter is being installed tomorrow.
and it was like pulling teeth getting it organised with Electric Ireland wonder are they trying to discourage people switching

BoatMad

I see someone proced the mailin head round trip with teh new pricing in place and worked out in would cost 120 euros, approx TWICE that of a small diesel

another posted a recent FCP charge taking 30 minutes to get a 100km range, costing 9 euros,


ESB- WAKE UP YOU IDIOTS.

BoatMad

baktag wrote: »

my night meter is being installed tomorrow.
and it was like pulling teeth getting it organised with Electric Ireland wonder are they trying to discourage people switching

I have been told privately that night rate may be restricted next year , I cant confirm it but thee it is !

DrPhilG

I charged for 18 minutes today, which added just 45%, from 23% up to 68%.

That 45% would at a push give me 40 miles.

Those 40 miles would have cost me €5.40 under the new scheme. 40 miles in my last car, a Peugeot 308 1.6 HDi would have cost about €5.35.