ESB public charging plans

homer911

I emailed Alex White as Minister for Energy & Natural Resources.
alex.white@oir.ie

Alan Kelly is Minister for the Environment
office@alankelly.ie

DrPhilG

Matt Cooper on Today FM will be discussing the issue in a few minutes.

Members of (both) EV owners groups will be on, and also apparently a response from ESB ecars.

BoatMad

DrPhilG wrote: »

I charged for 18 minutes today, which added just 45%, from 23% up to 68%.

That 45% would at a push give me 40 miles.

Those 40 miles would have cost me €5.40 under the new scheme. 40 miles in my last car, a Peugeot 308 1.6 HDi would have cost about €5.35.

plus factor in the 17 a month divided into the number of FCP uses


Its just NUTS

J.Dev

Ah yeah, that was disappointing. Sure there will be more options in April. But how can I pick up a Leaf in the new year knowing that they can pretty much get away with charging anything they like for using the infrastructure come April?

DrPhilG

Disappointed with the host on Today FM there. Gave the ESB guy far too much air time for his stuttering waffle and didn't give Alan near enough time even though he made his points far more concisely.

Villain

I tried my best but Matt didn't give me much time.

DrPhilG

Villain wrote: »

I tried my best but Matt didn't give me much time.

You did the best you could with the time you were given. Would love to hear a rematch with more time allowed!

BoatMad

J.Dev wrote: »

Ah yeah, that was disappointing. Sure there will be more options in April. But how can I pick up a Leaf in the new year knowing that they can pretty much get away with charging anything they like for using the infrastructure come April?

absolutely, I suspect Leaf salesmen are crying into their breakfast cereals as they watch their end of year bonus slip away.

Benny_Cake

Villain wrote: »

I tried my best but Matt didn't give me much time.

I thought you did a great job in the limited time available. Not a convincing display by Gareth even though he had most of the time.

homer911

An email I got from ecars today states..

This is an initial offering. We are working on additional choice of pricing plans that will be available to customers from April onwards which will enable customers to select an offering that best meets their individual charging needs (e.g. light usage, heavy usage). The design of these plans is intended also to maximise the utilisation of the entire network and availability to customers.

DrPhilG

homer911 wrote: »

An email I got from ecars today states..

This is an initial offering. We are working on additional choice of pricing plans that will be available to customers from April onwards which will enable customers to select an offering that best meets their individual charging needs (e.g. light usage, heavy usage). The design of these plans is intended also to maximise the utilisation of the entire network and availability to customers.

Word for word the same as everyone else got!

Hector Mildew

homer911 wrote: »

An email I got from ecars today states..

This is an initial offering. We are working on additional choice of pricing plans that will be available to customers from April onwards which will enable customers to select an offering that best meets their individual charging needs (e.g. light usage, heavy usage). The design of these plans is intended also to maximise the utilisation of the entire network and availability to customers.

That's all good so long as they publish their proposals for discussion and invite feedback from both existing and prospective EV owners. Unfortunately, based on Facebook responses from ESB, it looks like that won't be happening and we'll have to wait for their big reveal in April 2016. I'll be holding off buying an EV until then at least..

simdan

baktag wrote:

my night meter is being installed tomorrow. and it was like pulling teeth getting it organised with Electric Ireland wonder are they trying to discourage people switching

Definitely.. The day price is marginally different and the night rates are significant. She kept telling me that it costs €192 to remove the meter if I change my mind down the line. Everything she told me was discouraging apart from the low nightly rate! As I charge mostly at work it's not a major priority for me now but will probably change to the night meter in 2016..

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

I have been told privately that night rate may be restricted next year , I cant confirm it but thee it is !

I have official confirmation to the contrary !

Padraig Mor

baktag wrote: »

my night meter is being installed tomorrow.
and it was like pulling teeth getting it organised with Electric Ireland wonder are they trying to discourage people switching

Interesting. Mine is being installed Monday (I hope!) but I had a devil of a time getting Electric Ireland to actually tell ESB Networks to put the meter in. Been going on since August!

Hector Mildew

Hector Mildew wrote: »

it looks like that won't be happening and we'll have to wait for their big reveal in April 2016. I'll be holding off buying an EV until then at least..

Are you serious ? why ? how much do you think you would use the charge points ? the EV still saves substantial money because most of your chargeing will be done at home.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I have official confirmation to the contrary !

Well then publish it.

BoatMad

J.Dev wrote: »

Ah yeah, that was disappointing. Sure there will be more options in April. But how can I pick up a Leaf in the new year knowing that they can pretty much get away with charging anything they like for using the infrastructure come April?

Wise move waiting

Padraig Mor

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you serious ? why ? how much do you think you would use the charge points ? the EV still saves substantial money because most of your chargeing will be done at home.

The problem Mad Lad, even for people who mostly / exclusively charge at home or work like you and me (and there are quite a few for whom this isn't feasible) is that the public infrastructure is a 'safety net'. We may not use the infrastructure much but making longer journeys, or lots of shorter journeys in one day, isn't daunting because we know we can top up if needed - whether that be a 'splash and dash' at a FCP on the way to our destination, or plugging into a SCP for a couple of hours while we go about our business before a long return journey. It doesn't even have to be that regimented. Forgot to plug the car in overnight or Carwings ****ed up the timer and now you only have enough to get to work, but not home? No problem - hit the FCP on the way home! Extra unplanned journey? Heavy right foot? FCP cures all ills!

Now however, we are being asked to fork out €17 a month to have that safety net - even if we don't use it, or only use it once or twice. NOW longer / frequent journeys have suddenly become daunting! ESB are a bit like Goodfellas. Have a 120km round trip and it's cold? **** you, where's our €17? That trip is the only time you'll use a FCP this month? **** you, where's our €17? Want to charge at an SCP before a long return trip? **** you, where's our €17? The only reason they're doing this is because they can - they know they have EV owners over a barrel and that anyone who needs to use the public infrastructure (and the vast majority of us do at some stage) will have no choice but to pay. Sure, if you're filling up at an SCP every day (feasible for a tiny minority I'd imagine), €17 is good value, but charging it just for access to our safety net is simple exploitation. This of course is besides the fact that they will be charging for SCP usage from the end of next year. How much? No one knows!

Separately we have the FCP charges. 30 cents a MINUTE? Very roughly, that is 60 cents per kWh, or up to eight times more than people pay for the same electricity at home! On top of the monthly charge? Wholesale rip off! Again, exploiting vulnerable consumers ESB know have no choice. I've posted already re this, but I fully believe charging at ~8 cents per kWh at FCPs will instantly clear most issues with FCP abuse / blocking - why would you take the time to use a FCP when it saves you nothing compared to charging conveniently at home? Any rate above this automatically ensures the majority of people using FCPs are doing so because they NEED to, and ESB are exploiting these people.

This is before we get to the state of the network. Sure, Ireland has a decent network of SCPs and, arguably, FCPs. But what use are they if you can't use them? I'm lucky enough to be in Cork city, where the powers that be are reasonably enlightened about the issue - but you only have to look at this forum and Facebook to see that ICEing is a huge issue, especially at SCPs where it's perfectly legal in most areas!!! Reliability is another huge issue, with many chargers down for months on end, even FCPs. And a charger doesn't need to be actually ICEd or broken to cause a problem - all it takes is a reasonable expectation that it could be blocked/broken. For example, I've done a couple of Cobh - Tralee - Cobh runs, a 280km round trip. I should be able to do this trip with a FCP stop at Killarney on the way up, and Macroom on the way back. But what if I got to Killarney and the charger was broken? I'm screwed! So rather than make two FCP stops, I make three (Macroom/Tralee/Macroom) just in case the Killarney one is broken.

Asking people to pay for access (whether they use it or not!) to a potentially unavailable or unreliable network is a joke. I think it takes a certain mindset to own an EV in Ireland at the moment (it's no surprise that many owners seem to have 'technical' jobs) - we're pioneers really. EVs in Ireland will NEVER take off until the network is reliable (both availability and up time). It doesn't even need to be expanded too much (although I'm sure everyone has an exception!) - make all current SCPs EV only and clearly marked to that effect (with enforcement), and install two / three FCPs at most current locations to break the "what if the FCP is broken/blocked?" fear - THEN we can talk about charging for access!

And sorry, but I don't buy this "we'll have awesome plans in April" talk that some people are hanging on as a possible utopia. Reading between the lines, it's quite clear that they have no idea what plans will be available; I'd hazard a guess that they have nothing on the table yet. They could be anything (if they even materialise at all - and that's probably 50/50)! But if / when they come I'd prepare to be disappointed. If you think the various electricity retailers are going to refrain from exploiting people who need to use their product - think again! And as for the IVEO/A? ESB clearly couldn't give two hoots what they suggest!

DrPhilG

You hit the nail on the head with all that Padraig.

I fuly believe that the ESB have no clue what they are doing. These plans were half baked and were forced into the public earlier than intended because of leaks. Then again forced into claiming that more plans are underway because of the backlash.

Why else have such a clearly defined pricing plan of €17 + 30c/minute and yet have absolutely nothing with regards to the "other" plans? Because they don't have any other plans. They just pulled that out of their ass to save face.

NIMAN

Yeah, funny to hear the Rep from ESB ECars on the Matt Cooper Show saying "we will have lots of exciting new initiatives in the New Year"..

.... (once we think of some) !!

Hector Mildew

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Are you serious ? why ? how much do you think you would use the charge points ? the EV still saves substantial money because most of your chargeing will be done at home.

I know what your saying Mad Lad, overall an EV will still work out cheaper to run when mostly home charging. However its worrying that the sole provider of public charging can impose such arbitrary charges (pun not intended) without consultation or explanation. (They discourage home owners from installing solar panels in the same way by imposing minimum electricity supply penalty charges - another terrible decision).

Its effectively a tax on the infrastructure which brings home the limitations of (current) EV's and plays on people's main concern when it comes to buying one - range anxiety. I think that this will put off potential buyers, reducing the still tiny EV market share and in turn the resale value for current owners - not unlike what happened the petrol car market here after 2008. The charging infrastructure will also suffer without enough users to pay for itself. What then, higher monthly fees and per minute charging?

In a couple of years it won't be such a problem, by then range will be enough to allow driving across Ireland without (multiple) charging stops.

samih

Unfortunately the announced pricing, while unfortunate as far as FCPs are concerned, is almost exactly the same as in Holland.

€16.99/month and 0.30/min
€12.00/month and 0.35/min

Comparing Ireland to Norway is not fair. Norway generates 99 percent of their power by hydro. They sell the extra capacity to the Nordic transmission pool and the likes of Denmark who have extensive wind generation buy Norwegian capacity at expensive rate when needed. When it's windy in Denmark Norway can take benefit from that too by using the cheap Danish wind capacity. Hencr they only have 99 percent hydroelectric generation as importing the rest for free makes sense.

Norway had over 50000 electric vehicles for population of the same as Ireland as their taxation makes Tesla model S to cost half or 1/3 compared to a 5 series BMW. E Golf was the best selling vehicle in Norway as in recently. Norway also has the biggest oil reserves in Europe but have decided to sell it to the rest of the world while keeping the price really high for themselves. The monies are being saved for the future and being invested for future technologies when the oil reserves have been depleted. I think they have over 1000 billions saved or invested now.

So comparing Ireland to Norway is not a valid comparison. Netherlands is, and they pay the same than us.

If 16.99 charge per month with free SCP usage is not a bad deal. After all the Irish oil money is not used to subsidise the charging network.

DrPhilG

samih wrote: »

If 16.99 charge per month with free SCP usage is not a bad deal.

SCPs are only free until the end of 2016.

Padraig Mor

DrPhilG wrote: »

SCPs are only free until the end of 2016.

Unfortunately, ESB have succeeded in getting publicity for the white lie that the €17 covers all charging at SCPs, when it is clearly untrue and, as above, they will also be charged for (and no one knows how much) from end 2016. Based on what we have seen so far, and the apparent regulatory and technical difficulties involved, I imagine these will also be billed on a time basis so those with Leafs with 6.6kW chargers will be quids in (Mad Lad proved right!).


One other point about the whole debacle: the handling and timing has been horrendous - so bad in fact that my inner conspiracy theorist wonders whether ESB actually wants to kill EVs with one fell swoop! People who are interested in buying an EV are being told that there is zero certainty in how much it will cost to run from April, with a major chance that it will be significantly more expensive than the present. Who would buy one under those circumstances?! And ESB really could not have picked a worse time - while overall numbers are still low, there has been an undoubted major upswing in EV sales this year (myself included). I have had several people approach me at Frankfield Topaz FCP asking loads of questions - ALL were already considering buying an EV next year, and all were coming from ICEs. I have little doubt that, in the absence of ESB's intervention, 2015 would have become the start of logarithmic growth in EVs in Ireland (generally speaking, the year they moved from fanboys to 'normal' people). I cannot see how ESB's move can do anything other than stop this growth dead in its tracks - again, why would people buy one when they have no idea of how much it will cost to run?!

Padraig Mor

samih wrote: »

Unfortunately the announced pricing, while unfortunate as far as FCPs are concerned, is almost exactly the same as in Holland.

€16.99/month and 0.30/min
€12.00/month and 0.35/min
.

Just out of interest, are other parameters the same as Holland (I genuinely don't know)? How much is night/day rate electricity? Are FCPs single, sometimes unreliable, units placed considerable distances from each other with some prone to ICEing?

edit: quick look at the FastNed site there and the network seems much more comprehensive than here, with promises of at least 2 chargers per location, 24/7 support, security, free wifi etc. A rather more palatable offering than here.....

shanemkelly

Padraig Mor wrote: »

...People who are interested in buying an EV are being told that there is zero certainty in how much it will cost to run from April, with a major chance that it will be significantly more expensive than the present. Who would buy one under those circumstances?!...

Bingo!! Spot on Padraig Mor.
This is, I believe, the biggest reason why this announcement is a huge mistake.

Realistically, (some) current owners will kick up and complain (rightly so if that's how we feel), but, IMHO, I doubt anyone will sell up and go back to the ICE.

Most service companies float an initial "horrendous deal" for a while safe in the knowledge that when they do eventually announce a more favourable deal, then customers will breathe a sigh of relief as they'll compare it to the original "horrendous deal".

Obviously the problem for potential eCar owners here is the double-whammy;
1) "It's not as cheap to run as I was lead to believe", and,
2) "If they've introduced this payment structure now, what the hell could they do in the future".

Uncertainty is the biggest killer for anyone entering a new market. The potential for the "perception" that eCars are not much cheaper that ICE cars has been increased as a result of this announcement.

BoatMad

What it means , is that attempting to justify a BEV on fuel savings is on very shaky ground. We have no future visibility and we've just seen initial charges that are incredibly excessive. Not good, not good at all.

I was just about to sign next week. Now I'm glad I haven't as I see the need to rely on fcps for runs to Dublin, and a small disesel is upto half again as cheap as the FCP rate. It's unlikely any other future rate will be cheaper , as that would just undermine the new proposed rates.

I am incredibly disappointed in the nature of this ESB announcement. I would have accepted a reasonable kWh rate , even at upto the day domestic electricity rate ( and that's dear in Ireland ) but charging per minute is fundementally flawed, biased to wealthy EVs and unfair

Hector Mildew

samih wrote: »

Unfortunately the announced pricing, while unfortunate as far as FCPs are concerned, is almost exactly the same as in Holland.

€16.99/month and 0.30/min
€12.00/month and 0.35/min

Comparing Ireland to Norway is not fair. Norway generates 99 percent of their power by hydro. They sell the extra capacity to the Nordic transmission pool and the likes of Denmark who have extensive wind generation buy Norwegian capacity at expensive rate when needed. When it's windy in Denmark Norway can take benefit from that too by using the cheap Danish wind capacity. Hencr they only have 99 percent hydroelectric generation as importing the rest for free makes sense.

Norway had over 50000 electric vehicles for population of the same as Ireland as their taxation makes Tesla model S to cost half or 1/3 compared to a 5 series BMW. E Golf was the best selling vehicle in Norway as in recently. Norway also has the biggest oil reserves in Europe but have decided to sell it to the rest of the world while keeping the price really high for themselves. The monies are being saved for the future and being invested for future technologies when the oil reserves have been depleted. I think they have over 1000 billions saved or invested now.

So comparing Ireland to Norway is not a valid comparison. Netherlands is, and they pay the same than us.

If 16.99 charge per month with free SCP usage is not a bad deal. After all the Irish oil money is not used to subsidise the charging network.

In addition to receiving a grant, EV in the Netherlands are exempt from their equivalent of motor tax and VRT (motorrijrtuigenbelasting and BPM). So in effect their monthly infrastructure charge replaces motor tax for EVs which seems fair.

In Ireland we pay both (unless there's a plan to make EV's motor tax exempt from next April??)

shanemkelly

Hector Mildew wrote: »

In Ireland we pay both (unless there's a plant to make EV's motor tax exempt from next April??)

suggest moving this to the "Joke of the Day" thread... :rolleyes: