Where exactly is the boundary between Drimnagh and Crumlin? And indeed, Kimmage?

hatrickpatrick

Been arguing with mates about this for ages, never thought of asking here

Some friends of mine have recently moved to the Rafters Road, which is apparently postally in Drimnagh. Their relatives who have lived on Mourne Road for years all insist that it is, indeed, Drimnagh. The problem I have though is this: Once you take a photo anywhere from Herberton Road (which is practically Dolphin's Barn) to Rafters Road where they live, Apple's GPS will tag the photo as "Crumlin Town". And if you type "Crumlin" into Google Maps, it will draw a gigantic circle around the entire locality with the edges of that circle bordering Lansdowne Valley to the West, Kildare and Clogher Roads to the south, the canal all the way from Goldenbridge to Donore Avenue to the north and east. And ridiculously, right in the middle of this "Crumlin" circle is labelled "Drimnagh"

If on the other hand you type Drimnagh into the map, it won't circle an entire area at all, but merely drop a pin on the southwest corner of Brickfield Park. This would tend to corroborate my friends' insistence that their house is in fact definitely Drimnagh rather than Crumlin as Apple's GPS claims.

On the other hand, Wikipedia states that Crumlin Children's Hospital is in fact entirely within the boundary of Drimnagh. So all of this begs the question, where exactly is Crumlin?

I've hitherto taken a very simplistic approach to this and assumed that essentially, everything North of Crumlin Road up as far as the canal is Drimnagh, and everything south of that road is Crumlin. However, locals also insist that once you get to the Bangor Circle, Crumlin becomes Kimmage. This would seem to suggest that Drimnagh is a very big area, while Crumlin is comparatively tiny - which doesn't seem right given that Crumlin is regularly discussed as an actual area in and of itself rather than just a tiny add-on to Drimnagh. Also, Crumlin Shopping Centre is situation inside the triangle formed by Brickfield Drive, Crumlin Road and Herberton / Keeper Roads - despite the fact that according to my previous beliefs, this would be entirely Drimnagh and the shopping centre should therefore be named accordingly.

There are a lot of other discrepancies which have thrown this into confusion. I'm no stranger to the ambiguity of Dublin suburbs' boundaries, being myself from to which the postman will happily deliver letters marked Dun Laoghaire, Sandycove, Glasthule or Glenegeary, and which despite being beside Sandycove Dart Station comes up as Dun Laoghaire on Maps and is apparently "officially" postally Glenegeary... You get the idea. One of my neighbours takes the view that "The line between Sandycove and Glasthule is 'an idea'"... Go figure.
But the difference here is that there's a bit of cash riding on who was right about Crumlin and Drimnagh when it was recently debated, so I'm intensely interested in finding out if a definitive answer exists

Anyone have any insights here? Is it, like my area, just another of those areas of Dublin which lacks any clearly defined divisions between the different suburbs? Or is it another case of technologies such as Google Maps and Apple GPS being lazy and not actually looking at a proper map?

Attached are two Google Maps screenshots, one of a search for "Drimnagh" and another for "Crumlin". In the Crumlin photo if you look closely, the area Google regards as Crumlin is shaded in pink - while it shades nothing at all for a similar search of "Drimnagh".

And as if to make this even more ridiculous, the section of the canal they have used for the Street View preview is the exact same photo in both searches.

basamin

The first map is nearly correct. They are the boundaries for Drimnagh, except for the main divide of Drimnagh and Crumlin is the Crumlin Road , the R110. And yes Our Ladys Childrens Hospital Crumlin is actually in Drimnagh.
I'm originally form Rafters Road myself.:D

hatrickpatrick

basamin wrote: »

The first map is nearly correct. They are the boundaries for Drimnagh

.......except that if you look, you'll find that the first map actually defines that shaded area as the boundaries of Crumlin rather than Drimnagh You can see where my confusion is coming from!

I'm originally form Rafters Road myself.:D

Lovely spot. I had previously only been well acquainted with Dublin 8, between Francis Street on one side and Dolphin's Barn / Rialto on the other - hadn't really ventured any further into Dublin 12, except for a while back in 2011 when some of my crew lived in Inchicore Road - but even then I'd usually have walked the northern route, by Thomas St, and not gone much further south.

The couple I'm friends with have just had their first kid and last time I visited them I got off the DART at Grand Canal and walked the whole way up the Canal as far as Mourne Road - looks like a dream area for kids, lots of green and quiet enough roads to play on. I adore the part of Sandycove I grew up in and I'm next to a park, but being a road where the houses open out on to a main traffic throughway as opposed to an "estate" type road, there was never as much of a "kids from the block" atmosphere growing up as it was just too dangerous for kids to be allowed out alone given the speed of the traffic, especially after they double yellow lined the entire road on both sides, essentially widening the traffic area and turning it into a proper "busy" road.

K.Flyer

Starting at the Sundrive Rd / Crumlin Rd intersection looking towards OLCH.
Herberton Road to the right as far as the canal splits Drimnagh to the left Crumlin to the right.
Everything to the left and most of the right of the Crumlin road up as far as the Ard Scoil Eanna corner is Crumlin, with Drimnagh being behind the front line of buildings on the right.
After Ard Scoil Eanna everything on the right is Drimnagh, with the Crumlin border being on the left and keeping left onto St.Mary'Rd, where it turns into Crumlin Village with Walkinstown now bordered on the right side.
Crumlin stretches from Herberton Rd canal lights, along the canal to Sally's Bridge and turns back up Clogher Road to the lights at the Church and then left along Sundrive Road to the lights at Stannaway Rd, and this is where Crumlin borders Kimmage.
Stannaway Rd divides Crumlin and Kimmage up as far as Clonard Rd, where you then have Kimmage to the left and Crumlin to the right.
Crumlin takes in Stannaway Drive and Cashel Rd up to Ravensdale / Captains Rd.
Ravensdale is in Kimmage and Captains is in Crumlin.

hatrickpatrick

K.Flyer wrote: »

Starting at the Sundrive Rd / Crumlin Rd intersection looking towards OLCH.
Herberton Road to the right as far as the canal splits Drimnagh to the left Crumlin to the right.
Everything to the left and most of the right of the Crumlin road up as far as the Ard Scoil Eanna corner is Crumlin, with Drimnagh being behind the front line of buildings on the right.
After Ard Scoil Eanna everything on the right is Drimnagh, with the Crumlin border being on the left and keeping left onto St.Mary'Rd, where it turns into Crumlin Village with Walkinstown now bordered on the right side.
Crumlin stretches from Herberton Rd canal lights, along the canal to Sally's Bridge and turns back up Clogher Road to the lights at the Church and then left along Sundrive Road to the lights at Stannaway Rd, and this is where Crumlin borders Kimmage.
Stannaway Rd divides Crumlin and Kimmage up as far as Clonard Rd, where you then have Kimmage to the left and Crumlin to the right.
Crumlin takes in Stannaway Drive and Cashel Rd up to Ravensdale / Captains Rd.
Ravensdale is in Kimmage and Captains is in Crumlin.

Wow thanks, this is pretty detailed! Will have to look at this on the map later to get a better idea of it

Gaspode

The older maps would have these areas marked out, but I'm not sure how relevant they'd be now.
Check out the OSI maps, and use the overlay slider to see how the current addresses match up to the old ones.

Victor

Apple and Google are only vaguely right.

ongarboy

Official boundaries and what people insist are the boundaries are often two different things depending on what location appears more salubrious.

Some residents of Finglas claim they live in Glasnevin, Swords residents living in Malahide, Coolock residents claiming they live in Santry. It's worse in my post code with many around me saying they live in a completely different county... Clonee, Co Meath when in fact they live in Ongar or Little Pace, Dublin 15. Don't get me started on the amount of D15 residents who incorrectly state they live in Castleknock! :rolleyes:

NiallBoo

Ask an estate agent;
If they say it's Ternure, then you're in Kimmage.
If they say Kimmage then you're in Crumlin.
If they say Crumlin then you're in Drimnagh,
And if they say Drimnagh then you're in the canal.

Victor

ongarboy wrote: »

Don't get me started on the amount of D15 residents who incorrectly state they live in Castleknock! :rolleyes:

Castleknock Barony http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,705269,740130,9,7

gaiscioch

ongarboy wrote: »

Official boundaries and what people insist are the boundaries are often two different things depending on what location appears more salubrious.

Some residents of Finglas claim they live in Glasnevin, Swords residents living in Malahide, Coolock residents claiming they live in Santry. It's worse in my post code with many around me saying they live in a completely different county... Clonee, Co Meath when in fact they live in Ongar or Little Pace, Dublin 15. Don't get me started on the amount of D15 residents who incorrectly state they live in Castleknock! :rolleyes:

And then there's Blackrock where everybody from Deansgrange to Stillorgan to Monkstown to even Leopardstown seems to claim to be in. As the Wikipedia entry has it: "Blackrock covers a large but not precisely defined area."

Yet in Lewis's A Topographical Dictionary of Ireland (1837) this was the entry: "BLACKROCK, a village, in the parish of MONKSTOWN, half-barony of RATHDOWN, county of DUBLIN, and province of LEINSTER, 4 miles (S. E.) from Dublin Castle; containing 2050 inhabitants. This place, which is situated on the southern shore of Dublin bay, consists of one principal street extending along the road from Dublin to the head of the village, and continued along the two roads which meet there from Kingstown, also of several minor streets and avenues, containing altogether 308 houses irregularly built, of which some are in pleasant and retired situations. The village itself possesses few pleasing features..."

According to this, Blackrock in reality is only a townland and it, along with four other townlands, belongs to Booterstown Civil Parish. According to Townlands.ie these are the correct boundaries of Blackrock in 2015. The full address according to that website is: Blackrock, Booterstown Civil Parish, Barony of Rathdown, Co. Dublin. In other words, if that website is accurate there's a ridiculous number of pretentious people in Blackrock's hinterland.

I can understand the financial reasons why people who lived on Ballymun Avenue before the flats would have wanted to change the name to Glasnevin Avenue after the social experiment went wrong. However, people who move into areas where they get the houses cheaper and then try to claim to be in some place they never could afford to be in are just chancers or, more disturbingly, insecure and inadequate (i.e. snobs).

It would be worthwhile having a map of the boundaries of Dublin areas online, with colour codes to identify the snobs via a "Where you say you live" v. "Where you actually live" function, the real Castleknock versus the wannabe Castleknock, the real Malahide versus the wannabe Malahide, etc. Myhome.ie and Daft.ie entries would become much more entertaining with such a website.

Victor

gaiscioch wrote: »

And then there's Blackrock where everybody from Deansgrange to Stillorgan to Monkstown to even Leopardstown seems to claim to be in. As the Wikipedia entry has it: "Blackrock covers a large but not precisely defined area."

Yet in Lewis's A Topographical Dictionary of Ireland (1837) this was the entry: "BLACKROCK, a village, in the parish of MONKSTOWN, half-barony of RATHDOWN, county of DUBLIN, and province of LEINSTER, 4 miles (S. E.) from Dublin Castle; containing 2050 inhabitants. This place, which is situated on the southern shore of Dublin bay, consists of one principal street extending along the road from Dublin to the head of the village, and continued along the two roads which meet there from Kingstown, also of several minor streets and avenues, containing altogether 308 houses irregularly built, of which some are in pleasant and retired situations. The village itself possesses few pleasing features..."

According to this, Blackrock in reality is only a townland and it, along with four other townlands, belongs to Booterstown Civil Parish. According to Townlands.ie these are the correct boundaries of Blackrock in 2015. The full address according to that website is: Blackrock, Booterstown Civil Parish, Barony of Rathdown, Co. Dublin. In other words, if that website is accurate there's a ridiculous number of pretentious people in Blackrock's hinterland.

Part of the issue is that these area have BLockrosk as their postal sorting office. However, An Post have said there is no need to include the sorting office name in an address. Eircode A94 includes Blackrock, Monkstown, Booterstown and Stillorgan. http://www.ossiansmyth.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/A94.png

gaiscioch

K.Flyer wrote: »

Starting at the Sundrive Rd / Crumlin Rd intersection looking towards OLCH.
Herberton Road to the right as far as the canal splits Drimnagh to the left Crumlin to the right.
Everything to the left and most of the right of the Crumlin road up as far as the Ard Scoil Eanna corner is Crumlin, with Drimnagh being behind the front line of buildings on the right.
After Ard Scoil Eanna everything on the right is Drimnagh, with the Crumlin border being on the left and keeping left onto St.Mary'Rd, where it turns into Crumlin Village with Walkinstown now bordered on the right side.
Crumlin stretches from Herberton Rd canal lights, along the canal to Sally's Bridge and turns back up Clogher Road to the lights at the Church and then left along Sundrive Road to the lights at Stannaway Rd, and this is where Crumlin borders Kimmage.
Stannaway Rd divides Crumlin and Kimmage up as far as Clonard Rd, where you then have Kimmage to the left and Crumlin to the right.
Crumlin takes in Stannaway Drive and Cashel Rd up to Ravensdale / Captains Rd.
Ravensdale is in Kimmage and Captains is in Crumlin.

To answer the original question, I would have thought the above was fairly accurate, but it seems from the following maps from www.townlands.ie that Crumlin goes as far west as Brandon Road and Comeragh Road and actually includes Mourne Road:

Crumlin (Even though it says "Crumlin Townland" on the page it's not clear whether this map is actually Crumlin townland or Crumlin parish, as the same map is used under the entry for each one. Crumlin townland = 2.76 sq. km; Crimlin Civil Parish = 7.3 sq. km)


In contrast, here are the boundaries of Drimnagh according to the same www.townlands.ie website:

Drimnagh (Again it's not clear if this map is Drimnagh townland or Drimnagh parish, as the same map is used under the entry for each one. Drimnagh townland = 1.1189 sq. km; Drimnagh Civil Parish = 3 sq km)

tabbey

Crumlin, Drimnagh, most of Walkinstown, and the west side of Kimmage are all in Dublin 12. In the 1930s and forties, the area between Kimmage Road,lower, and the Crumlin Road, was largely developed for housing by Dublin Corporation, known as Kimmage -Crumlin, eventually shortened to Crumlin. Development of the area between Crumlin Road and Davitt Road (canal & luas) followed later, this then became known as Drimnagh.
Strictly speaking, most of what we now call Drimnagh is in the townland of Crumlin, while the townland of Drimnagh is further up from the Children's Hospital towards the Long Mile Road.

L'Enfer du Nord

gaiscioch wrote: »

It would be worthwhile having a map of the boundaries of Dublin areas online, with colour codes to identify the snobs via a "Where you say you live" v. "Where you actually live" function, the real Castleknock versus the wannabe Castleknock, the real Malahide versus the wannabe Malahide, etc. Myhome.ie and Daft.ie entries would become much more entertaining with such a website.

There are no official boundaries for the 'district' part of the address, only the Dublin XX (e.g. Dublin 4) have official boundries, beyond that there's a hodge-potch of townlands, civil parishes, catholic parishes, local lore and estate agents. It mat be a bit different in county Dublin, where the 'district' may refer to a sorting office as in Blackrock. Essentially the district part of the address is a vanity address, it just depends on how far you want to stretch the truth, how ridiculous you want to seem. The result is that the 'desirable' areas are growing and the supposedly less desirable ones are shrinking. Rathfarnham and Dundrum are going swallow up Ballinteer. It's pathetic, but I must admit there's quite a lot of money riding on it. No politician, An Post or the OSI has the appetite for the sh*t storm they'd receive if they tried to rationalise it. I think it's no coincidence that other than the D0X Dublin X bit there's no real relationship between the new post code and actual localities. I've been tempted to map the address data from the property price register to produce an estate agents map of Dublin, unfortunately the data was all over the place. I think cleaner data may now be available from GEO-hive. Preliminary investigation reveals that there's an enclave of Blackrock beyond Booterstown - Blackrock, Dublin 4! laughable.

EricPraline

Victor wrote: »

Part of the issue is that these area have BLockrosk as their postal sorting office. However, An Post have said there is no need to include the sorting office name in an address.

An Post seem to be rather confused on this. I've had letters delivered marked with a "wrong address" label because the sorting office name was missing. Their own site (http://correctaddress.anpost.ie, which is meant to be a definitive source of correct postal addresses, will often (but not always) recommend using the full address with the sorting office.

In general, in parts of Dublin and in many rural areas there can be some inconsistency between postal address versus physical location. This is a completely separate issue from an estate agent or home owner deliberately misrepresenting a property's location.

tararr

Gaiscioch

Wow, that townlands map of Drimnagh is WAY off! Flip the highlighted area horizontally and that would be closer to the true map of Drimnagh. Don't pay any attention to that map!!!

Victor

tararr wrote: »

Gaiscioch

Wow, that townlands map of Drimnagh is WAY off! Flip the highlighted area horizontally and that would be closer to the true map of Drimnagh. Don't pay any attention to that map!!!

Actually, those maps are about right. It is religious and colloquial use that has corrupted the understanding. http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,711238,731970,9,7

Are you suggesting Drimnagh Castle isn't in Drimnagh?

tararr

No that map is not 'about right'.

Drimnagh goes as far as Drimnagh Castle to the right, so none of that map apart from the castle and the school is correct. To the left, Drimnagh goes all along the Crumlin road to the hospital, and down to Brickfield Park and most of Keeper road, up to the Good Council GAA, then all along the south of the canal up to the valley.

So tell me again how that map of Drimnagh is correct when is excludes most of Drimnagh?

tararr

No that map is not 'about right'.

Drimnagh goes as far as Drimnagh Castle to the left, so none of that map apart from the castle and the school is correct. To the right, Drimnagh goes all along the Drimnagh road to the hospital, and down to Brickfield Park and most of Keeper road, up to the Good Council GAA, then all along the south of the canal up to the valley.

So tell me again how that map of Drimnagh is correct when is excludes most of Drimnagh?

Victor

tararr wrote: »

So tell me again how that map of Drimnagh is correct when is excludes most of Drimnagh?

Beucase people are misled, mistaken, snobbish, delusional and / or stupid?

Whyohwhy?

ongarboy wrote: »

Official boundaries and what people insist are the boundaries are often two different things depending on what location appears more salubrious.

Some residents of Finglas claim they live in Glasnevin, Swords residents living in Malahide, Coolock residents claiming they live in Santry. It's worse in my post code with many around me saying they live in a completely different county... Clonee, Co Meath when in fact they live in Ongar or Little Pace, Dublin 15. Don't get me started on the amount of D15 residents who incorrectly state they live in Castleknock! :rolleyes:

Haha! From santry me self, that's a very common thing to be sure!

Always thought I was from the suburbs of Dublin. But a few years back they put up a big fcukin sign saying "now entering Dublin city" or "Dublin city limits", something like that anyway... (it's gone now though) apparently everything behind it(heading into town) is Dublin city, everything before it is/was north county Dublin. My estate is just inside it. Technically I'm a townie!

Imo Crumlin/drimnagh = one and the same, kimagge is separate, but I'm a northsider, I don't know the area. I've gotten in arguments for saying Kilmore is in coolock ffs, like wise darn dale is coolock. Jaysus they don't like that at all.!

People can be touchy like that.

gaiscioch

NiallBoo wrote: »

Ask an estate agent;
If they say it's Ternure, then you're in Kimmage.
If they say Kimmage then you're in Crumlin.
If they say Crumlin then you're in Drimnagh,
And if they say Drimnagh then you're in the canal.

I did a google search for this memorable post on Boards. It's still brilliant. I'm over on myhome and daft looking at houses advertised under all sorts of addresses and I'm wondering does anybody know where I can find out for certain what the real address of a place is?

For starters is this house in "Poddle Park, Kimmage" really in Kimmage?

andekwarhola

gaiscioch wrote: »

I did a google search for this memorable post on Boards. It's still brilliant. I'm over on myhome and daft looking at houses advertised under all sorts of addresses and I'm wondering does anybody know where I can find out for certain what the real address of a place is?

For starters is this house in "Poddle Park, Kimmage" really in Kimmage?

If it's technically Crumlin, at least it's right on the edge of Kimmage.

It's not half as bad as some of the addresses that get called Kimmage. :pac:

The flying mouse

K.Flyer wrote: »

Starting at the Sundrive Rd / Crumlin Rd intersection looking towards OLCH.
Herberton Road to the right as far as the canal splits Drimnagh to the left Crumlin to the right.
Everything to the left and most of the right of the Crumlin road up as far as the Ard Scoil Eanna corner is Crumlin, with Drimnagh being behind the front line of buildings on the right.
After Ard Scoil Eanna everything on the right is Drimnagh, with the Crumlin border being on the left and keeping left onto St.Mary'Rd, where it turns into Crumlin Village with Walkinstown now bordered on the right side.
Crumlin stretches from Herberton Rd canal lights, along the canal to Sally's Bridge and turns back up Clogher Road to the lights at the Church and then left along Sundrive Road to the lights at Stannaway Rd, and this is where Crumlin borders Kimmage.
Stannaway Rd divides Crumlin and Kimmage up as far as Clonard Rd, where you then have Kimmage to the left and Crumlin to the right.
Crumlin takes in Stannaway Drive and Cashel Rd up to Ravensdale / Captains Rd.
Ravensdale is in Kimmage and Captains is in Crumlin.

That's it for me to,

Years ago I worked (70,s) out of Kimmage premier dairies not to be confused with Crumlin premier dairies,


Yes they were both the same place.:-)