Wooden Sash window frames not square.

Calibos

9+2 bays of Wooden sashes fitted in 2010 Victorian Renovation in out of square 150 year old openings, only two of which are shimmed/squared well and seal perfectly resulting in no draughts and fantastic sound insulation. All other sash frames are out of square resulting in draughts and very poor sound insulation. Basically where top and bottom of the sashes meet the frame top and bottom when windows are closed, they are tight on one side but the gap opens to 5mm by the other side. Presumably this means the sashes don't mate tight in the middle either.


Squaring all the windows is pretty much out of the question due to disruption and cost.

How about gluing wedges/shims to the top bottom and middle of the sashes to fill the gaps enabling the gaskets to seal well. Or what about planing the top and bottom of the sashes to match and mate flush with the out of square frames which will also resolve the mating in the middle as a side effect? Anyone got any ideas?

kadman

Can you describe what type of sliding sash system you, as there are a few
systems used.
Why have you only noticed the discrepencies now at this stage , after
so long.
What type of guarantee do you have on the products at the time.

kadman

If your window frames have a 5mm gap 1 corner of each sash, this could have easily been dealt with
by fitting a perfectly square window frame into the ope, and losing this small amount throughout the fitment,
as its so small as to be negligable on a large window.

Making out of square sashes to get a perfect fit into an out of square ope, creates all sorts of grief.

Of course it might just be a case of minor adjustment on the method of the pulley system used.

For instance, bonavara spiral balances are easily adjustable, and would easily pull up this 5mm,
assuming of course that this will match the mid rails.

Pics and more input...

Calibos

In work at the moment so will post more later. I posted much more context and background in a thread in the Construction forum but I think the detailed wall of text scared the 168 viewers of that thread away without a single reply. I can't seem to get the balance right. I seem to have posted too much info over there and not enough here

In the intervening years I've reasoned that the infamous South Western manufacturer who have notoriously poor after sales service anyway would wash their hands of the problem because the windows were fitted by my renovation builder and he went bust soon after our Reno in 2010 so there'd be no comeback there either.

kadman

Well...

This is the woodcraft forum, and we fear nothing in the way of specific details, and laugh in the face of danger.:D

So go ahead, give us the skinny:)
I wont be visiting that mentioned forum, as my outspoken views scared them
so much, I ended up with a many years ban. Anyway, thats another story.:D

So, as much detail as you can, or copy and paste your specs from the other forum , to a post here.

And no mention of specifics of those southern critters, we probably all know of whom you speak.

kadman

Calibos

Dark now so I'll take some photo's tomorrow.

150 year old Victorian house we renovated in 2009/2010. Window openings long distorted out of square. Wooden sash windows ordered from the company who shall remain nameless but fitted by our builders. Moved back in July 2010. By the end of the Summer we knew that there was a heck of a lot more sound getting inside than through the old original single glazed sashes. The originals had evidence of rot, all ropes broken and were painted shut a hundred times over. They had to be replaced. I reasoned that their apparent superior sound insulation performance was the thick old wavy 1870 glass and perfect seals from being painted shut with layers and layers of lead paint. By extension, I reasoned that the poor performance of the new ones must just be intrinsic to the sash design assuming one wants a window that one can actually literally open and without the strength of a power lifter. I thought a tight enough seal to be effective at blocking sound must make them almost impossible for a mere mortal to ift/pull open and thus its simply a compromise one makes if one wants sashes. I had seen this type of reasoning repeated across the internet in discussions about sashes and thus didn't doubt my own appraisal.

We had a million other worries, financial and health wise in the following years so I didn't put much more thought or investigation into it for a good while. One particularly bad weekend for drunken carry on outside a couple of years ago prompted me to do more investigation and I thoroughly examined the windows. I noticed the frames were a bit out of square and the top of the top sash didn't close flush with the top rail across its whole width and neither did the bottom of the bottom sash with the bottom rail/sills. One or two were also warped one corner in the front/back/inside/outside dimension. All windows seemed to have this problem to one degree or another and all the windows let varying degree's of sound in. The worst example was a bathroom window fortunately I suppose (ie. not someones bedroom). It lets so much sound in you would swear the window was actually open a centimetre or two. I wondered if this out of square frameness was how the sound was getting in. Yet there were other gaskets/seals on the inside of the frames that one would have thought would be an adequate backup to poor seals elsewhere. So I was never 100% sure of this theory. Other worries and concerns get in the way again and it goes to the back of my mind again.

A couple of weeks ago I found myself in the kitchen that has two of the sashes. I had never actually thoroughly examined these two afaik because with the old granite sills askew I just assumed that their frames were out of square too. Anyway, I found myself in the kitchen alone...in silence...no cooker or kettle on, no TV on, no family chatting, no french door open for the dogs letting outside sound in.....all the while theres a big @ss lorry 15ft away on the road outside doing a 3 point turn. This confluence of events never happens. Well not during the day time anyway and at night Im only thinking of bed I couldn't hear a thing!! Hold on a minute, I thought all my windows were sh!t, I thought working sashes just weren't very good at keeping out sound?? These two sashes are actually doing a fantastic job of blocking the sound!! So that prompts me to examine these sashes closely for probably the first time. AHA!! These two actually aren't out of square and the sash is mating with the top rail evenly across their whole width. 1.5mm gap all the way across, the gaskets/seals evenly and tightly compressed all the way across. Feck all sound from outside heard with a big chugging lorry engine right outside.

This is what finally confirmed to me that it was the out of squareness that was the main issue because it just so happened that the two windows that I had very belatedly discovered had fantastic sound insulation were the only two windows that had obviously been shimmed well during install and whose frames were square.

kadman

I think your last line seems to answer your question.

Properly squared and level plumbed sliding sash windows, are very functional.
Coupled with modern gaskets, are draught proofed as well.

From your observations on your warped sashes, it may not be the sashes, but the plumbed
fitment of the frames. Not properly plumbed.

What type of window system did you choose, ordinary weights and pulleys,
or spiral balances???

kadman

Calibos

My terminology might have been off but the non-plumb fitment of the frames is what I meant when I said out of square frames. I understand that the sashes themselves are unlikely to have been built mis-shappen nor gone out of shape due to the rigidness of the the DG units they are built around. ie. that the frame is effectively a parallelogram instead of a perfect rectangle.

Presumably its weights. Substantial looking chains as opposed to ropes.

kadman

Need a pic really to determine exactly what the system is. By the sound of your details,
could equally be spiral balances.

It may just be a case where the sash needs to be adjusted to rise upwards to close the
gap. Or it may be something else entirely. A 5mm gap over a large window is not
an impossible gap to deal with, depending on a few other factors.

Modern day gasket systems used on sliding sash windows, cover a multitude of differing designs.
Some are better suited to draughtproof large gaps, some are not.
In the case of woolpile gasket bars, these can close 5+ plus variances , easily. Rubber
bubble gaskets can also close odd size tolerances, but in different situations.

Basically bubble gaskets work by being compressed to suit the gap. Lets say at the top of a sash.
But would not be really suitable on the vertical sliding surfaces of the sash against the frame.

Here woolpile parting bead is a better option, as it both closes a gap, yet allows sufaces to slide
against it.

If you can push up the top sash to close it against the head of the frame, then it may be easy to
sort that issue.

On a side note, do you intend to fix all these yourself, presuming we can guide you through the
best options at this stage.

I know i,m always asking for pics, but it takes the guesswork out of it for us, and we then know
we are all singing from the same hymn sheet

kadman

kadman

Large range of gaskets commonly used in sliding sash windows.

http://www.exitex.com/joinery-seals-glazing/weatherseals-for-sliding-sash-windows.html

Combinations of these should normally guarantee a well draught proofed window. Dont rule out
draughts entering around the frame, from the outside. Sealing here, especially on a restoration
job to stone is often poor and overlooked. Coupled with cheaper sealing compunds that break down
in a couple of years. May look ok, but on closer inspection, adhesion to either of the surfaces,
stone/timber may have broken down.

kadman

Calibos

Took some photo's. Transferred them to PC. They were sh!t. Now its dark :rolleyes:

Trying to hold up the venetians out of the way with one hand with the camera phone in the other. I managed to take all photos at an angle that still had the venetians blocking the view of the offending areas.

Heres one of the chain though. Dont think its anything like those spiral balances you linked to anyway.



Its looking like you are leaning towards thicker gaskets being the solution. While I understand they will deal with any draught issues, will they compress tightly enough to be effective at blocking the sound. TBH its more sound that I have an issue with rather than draughts.

HorseSea

kadman wrote: »

Large range of gaskets commonly used in sliding sash windows.

http://www.exitex.com/joinery-seals-glazing/weatherseals-for-sliding-sash-windows.html

Slightly off topic, can these be bought for DIY, I can't seem to find a supplier.

kadman

HorseSea wrote: »

kadman wrote: »

Large range of gaskets commonly used in sliding sash windows.

http://www.exitex.com/joinery-seals-glazing/weatherseals-for-sliding-sash-windows.html

Slightly off topic, can these be bought for DIY, I can't seem to find a supplier.

Yes direct from the link.

kadman

Calibos wrote: »

Took some photo's. Transferred them to PC. They were sh!t. Now its dark :rolleyes:

Trying to hold up the venetians out of the way with one hand with the camera phone in the other. I managed to take all photos at an angle that still had the venetians blocking the view of the offending areas.

Heres one of the chain though. Dont think its anything like those spiral balances you linked to anyway.



Its looking like you are leaning towards thicker gaskets being the solution. While I understand they will deal with any draught issues, will they compress tightly enough to be effective at blocking the sound. TBH its more sound that I have an issue with rather than draughts.

Sorry, I thought draughts was the main issue, silly me.

Sound proofing is a different animal. Did you specify sound proofed windows at the outset with the supplier??
Or is this just a point that now you need to deal with.

Soundproofing at the window install would have been more beneficial, than retrofitting it now.
Was any soundproofing measures attempted at the install??

Each side of your box frame is basically a soundbox as well thats resonating any sound that hits the frame externally. But I suspect that the poor fitting sashes are the main problem with both the sound as well as the draughts.

What thickness is the sash material, and are the sashes fitted with double glazing. I presume they are but maybe not in the case of some restos.

We need pics of the sash closing areas, top of top sash, and bottom of bottom sash, and meeting rails of both sashes. I,m afraid

kadman

Might be the answer you are looking for, but additional cost.

http://www.windowsealflyscreens.com/sound-proofing/

HorseSea

kadman wrote: »

HorseSea wrote: »

Yes direct from the link.

I see no prices, no basket, no stockist details etc.

kadman

HorseSea wrote: »

kadman wrote: »

I see no prices, no basket, no stockist details etc.

e mail details are there , and Irish supplier listed. Google is your friend/spy:D

Mountpleasant, Dundalk, Co. Louth
(042) 937 1244

Calibos

kadman wrote: »

Sorry, I thought draughts was the main issue, silly me.

Sound proofing is a different animal. Did you specify sound proofed windows at the outset with the supplier??
Or is this just a point that now you need to deal with.

Soundproofing at the window install would have been more beneficial, than retrofitting it now.
Was any soundproofing measures attempted at the install??

Each side of your box frame is basically a soundbox as well thats resonating any sound that hits the frame externally. But I suspect that the poor fitting sashes are the main problem with both the sound as well as the draughts.

What thickness is the sash material, and are the sashes fitted with double glazing. I presume they are but maybe not in the case of some restos.

We need pics of the sash closing areas, top of top sash, and bottom of bottom sash, and meeting rails of both sashes. I,m afraid

Remember you asked me why I had left it so long to do anything about this. I assumed for years that poor soundproofing was the nature of the beast when talking about sashes. Thats why I accepted it for 5 years at this point. As I explained in my more detailed post, what changed was that all the ducks lined up in a row in the kitchen a week or so ago where the permanently open French doors were closed because the dogs were out on a walk, the kitchen was silent with no TV or kettle or cooker on or family nattering away. Yet it was daytime with daytime noise levels outside and a big a$$ lorry reversing outside. (Yeah some of those ducks line up every night when everyone is in bed but its quiet outside too. One just assumed the kitchen was quiet because it simply was quiet outside.) I finally had the opportunity to notice that I couldn't hear a bloody thing happening outside...during the day....with huge lorry reversing outside and a co-driver standing beside the lorry shouting directions to the driver.

These two sashes in the kitchen didn't have sh!t soundproofing at all. They actually had fantastic soundproofing. Which meant there was some reason why the others were cr@p but these were good. I had a look at the windows and saw they closed perfectly flush to the frames which pretty much confirmed my theory that it must be the out of square frames of the others that were letting the sound in in those rooms. I reasoned that assuming that the windows left the factory square with Rails of equal width and stiles of equal height (if thats the correct terminology?), that the frames not installed square would be a parallelogram and that if there was a gap on the left where the top sash meets the top of the frame, this would mean a gap on the righthand side where the bottom sash meets the bottom frame and also meant there would be a gap in the middle. Just checked this tonight and sure enough gap on left at top and gap on right at bottom. Frame definitely a parallelogram and out of square.

Point being, that these two kitchen windows proved that the 'soundbox' frames are not an issue, that the gaskets and seals are not an issue, that the thick frames are not an issue nor the Double Glazed Panels. They proved that when these particular windows are simply fit such that the frames are plumb and square, they are actually fantastically soundproofed.

My question was that now that I had found the problem, ie. the out of square frame causing gaps top, bottom and middle, what was the best way to tackle the problem when one removed the possibility of ripping off all the interior trim and re-squaring.

Additive or subtractive?

Add thicker gaskets but would these compress enough to provide an effective barrier to soundwaves.
Add/glue thin wooden shims to fill the gaps top middle and bottom.
Subtract/Sand/Plane the sashes so that they closed flush to the out of square frames





These photos taken while precariously balancing on the back of a couch are of the left side with the 5mm gap and the right side with no gap.

Here is a crappy exaggerated line drawing



Its not like one sees daylight through these gaps. There is frame trim on the outside up top so the top gap is only visible inside because the top sash is the sash in front to the outside of the frame and the bottom gap is only visible from the outside because there is trim on the inside bottom. Theres gaskets and seals on every vertical and horizontal surface in each rail where the sashes run. These are the reasons there is no light visible in the gaps nor major draughts. However for the reasons explained a lot of these aren't compresses tightly enough to stop the soundwaves.

kadman

Go back to my post number 9. As I asked you a particular question in order to
assess whether a re adjustment of the pulley and chain system will improve the sash fitment.

But I,m still waiting for an answer on that. You never said whether you could physically push up
that 5 mm gap or not. If you can, then you have some sideways play that will allow some adjustment
to close the sash possibly.

All bubble gaskets will close flat with the appropriate force applied, some from 5mm down to zero.

You say that all the sashes have gaskets on their sides, but what type, woolpile, plastic or rubber
pressure gaskets. And if you weren,t sure, thats why I asked for pics. makes everything clearer.

And we still have no pics of the meeting rails, bottoms. So its hard to find the solution with nothing
to go on. Where as you are looking at them.

And you cant take off the front architrave, and re square the frames. At least you shouldn,t be able
to, if they have been properly constructed. You feel that they are parralelograms. Maybe they are
square, but are fitted off plumb in relation to the sashes. This would also give you the same effect.

Have you placed a square in the corners of the frames to actually check for squareness.

And just for the record, i,ve been making these type of windows throughout my working career. I
was making them by hand on site with no power tools when i was 19, and thats nearly 42 years
ago. All the way up to batch methods of machining large numbers.

So I know exactly what I,m talking about on these babies.

So in a nut shell, you need to give exactly the info requested, in order to get a cyber assessment
of your window problem, site unseen.
Or failing that, pay for an onsite visit from an expert, to list your options.

Over and out.

http://www.doorandwindowseals.com/7-SASH-WINDOWS-SEALS?p=3

This document shows a typical sliding sash with both woolpile, wiping seals and
compression gaskets, and where they are used.

https://books.google.ie/books?id=6G0doVhKG40C&pg=PA452&lpg=PA452&dq=sliding+sash+window+compression+gaskets&source=bl&ots=_hy9aFJgKM&sig=Nz_lp3uGaqu0jO3AUARxgHjmqoQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBWoVChMIyPTEy4X4yAIVAVAUCh1ktwVr#v=onepage&q=sliding%20sash%20window%20compression%20gaskets&f=false

Sharkseal also do a good range of draught proofing seals for retrofitting.

http://www.futurebuild.ie/Site/PAL_Draft_Proofing_files/Schlegel%20Brochure.pdf

Calibos

Yep, Sorry about that. Work and then when I remember I need to take the pics its bloody dark out and I've only a crappy camera phone without flash. I'll try and take relevant photo's tomorrow.

They're MJ Heritage Sash BTW

kadman

Your best and quickest option is,

To replace or refit the missing component from your windows.
Yes I did say missing.

When you post up better pics of the,
Head of the sash,
The top edge of the sash that hits the frame,
The top face of the window head where the sash edge hits.
Same at the bottom.
Meeting rails.

And glass unit thicknesses.
And i want to know can you push up the sash to close it better.
And can you get access to the weight on the end of the chain.

When you get this sorted, I,ll flesh out the missing part for you,
and explain the best and cheapest and quickest solution to retro fit this.
Time wise, with the proper component 20 minutes per window.

Now you have the ball, now run with it. I,ll be back when thats done

Calibos

kadman wrote: »

Your best and quickest option is,

To replace or refit the missing component from your windows.
Yes I did say missing.

When you post up better pics of the,
Head of the sash,


The top edge of the sash that hits the frame,


The top face of the window head where the sash edge hits.
Same at the bottom.



Meeting rails.

And glass unit thicknesses.
And i want to know can you push up the sash to close it better.
And can you get access to the weight on the end of the chain.

When you get this sorted, I,ll flesh out the missing part for you,
and explain the best and cheapest and quickest solution to retro fit this.
Time wise, with the proper component 20 minutes per window.

Now you have the ball, now run with it. I,ll be back when thats done

Calibos

Just cant seem to get decent photo's. Windows dont look as dirty in real life but are obviously in need of a good clean.

Couldn't get photo of seal in middle bar. Pictured is the middle bar of the top sash. The window wiper type rubber seal is on the underside of the middle bar of the bottom sash.

There was some lateral play in the sashes so I was able to push up on the left side of these window to close the gap where the top sash meets the head of the frame. Closing the locks pushed the sashes apart a bit where they meet in the middle. It sounds like a lot of the sound is coming from the middle bar area alright. However I stuffed some 3 core electric cable in the gap between sashes and it seemed like a reasonable tight fit and yet the sound was just as bad. Back to being very confused again as to how those two kitchen windows can be so good and this particular window in the bathroom upstairs is so bad.

kadman

Excellent photos...now we have something to work on.

Pic 10.
The window frame head here has been fitted above the reveal line, which is not the norm.
Basically the inner faces of the frame , match the reveal faces, left and right, and on top.
But thats academic now. But if you look at the vertical parting bead that runs from top to
bottom on the left and right stile of the frame, there should normally be one on the head of
the frame as well.

If there was, you would not be able to see the 5 mm gap of the sash. And it would be better
sealed against draughts as well as sound. It can be easily fitted.

Pic 7.

I think this is the access to the pulley weights??
there seems to be a loose parting bead here.
Also the inner staff bead seems to be a long way from the face of the sash.
If thats the case, and the sash face can move in and outwards, the bead can be
moved towards the sash face to make it a bit snugger.

Pic 5.

The corner seal here might need trimming to allow the sash to fully sit downwards.

If as you say you can push the sash upwards towards the window frame head, then this
slack or slippage need to be adjusted and dealt with. It will also tighten up the window as
whole.

In the case of using 3 core electric cable for a test piece at keeping out sound . It wont.
The reason it made no difference is its density. The denser the material the greater the
ability to transfer sound. You would be better off trying kitchen towel, tissue. Something
soft to absorb the sound waves.

And if your centre rail locks are pushing the sashes apart, then they need to be refitted.
Their purpose is to pull the meeting rails together for tightness.

I think this is going to be an ongoing fix for you, bit by bit. I would imagine it would be hard
for you to trust someone to fix it for you, after all the hassle you,ve had.

Make your few changes and see how things go, and keep us posted.

kadman

Calibos wrote: »

Just cant seem to get decent photo's. Windows dont look as dirty in real life but are obviously in need of a good clean.

Couldn't get photo of seal in middle bar. Pictured is the middle bar of the top sash. The window wiper type rubber seal is on the underside of the middle bar of the bottom sash.

There was some lateral play in the sashes so I was able to push up on the left side of these window to close the gap where the top sash meets the head of the frame. Closing the locks pushed the sashes apart a bit where they meet in the middle. It sounds like a lot of the sound is coming from the middle bar area alright. However I stuffed some 3 core electric cable in the gap between sashes and it seemed like a reasonable tight fit and yet the sound was just as bad. Back to being very confused again as to how those two kitchen windows can be so good and this particular window in the bathroom upstairs is so bad.

Are the kitchen windows at ground level, and maybe have better protection in the form of walls, hedges trees ect, that an upstairs bathroom wont have ?

Miname

Are the sashs sticking on one side or the weights balanced correctly? It could be a lot of the issues.

Ellawella

Hi, Where can I source Bonavara spiral balance systems mentioned above?