Increase in Bad Driving

Weepsie

But the cyclist also clearly doesn't use common sense. Stopped truck, and what looks wholly like a single lane of traffic until after the yellow box. When they look back, it is also a single lane.

The driver is probably more at fault, especially in legal terms, but the cyclist should also proceed with greater caution when there is a truck blocking the view of the driver and himself.

buffalo

onmebike wrote: »

I saw an incident near my house where there was a very slow moving queue of traffic outside a housing estate. A cyclist was passing the queue on the right (along the white line) and a car turned right into the estate and he hit the side of the car, mid-turn. He started calling the driver a stupid b*ch and all the rest until I pointed out to him that she had been indicating into the estate. I know that indicating doesn't give you right of way, but the driver didn't have any chance of seeing him the cyclist in his less than orthodox road position.

If I've understood you correctly there, surely the cyclist was directly in front of the driver the entire time they were approaching?

cython

buffalo wrote: »

If I've understood you correctly there, surely the cyclist was directly in front of the driver the entire time they were approaching?

All depends on whether the cyclist hit the driver or passenger side of the car, I guess. I took from the post that it would have been the former, and that the cyclist was overtaking the car turning right, as opposed to heading towards it, meaning there would be blame on both sides (driver should check blind spot, but cyclist should not really be overtaking a car on the right which is indicating and likely to complete a right turn), whereas if the car was oncoming and turned in front, then 100% the car was wrong, and the cyclist should have been more visible on the outside of the queue of traffic.

buffalo

cython wrote: »

All depends on whether the cyclist hit the driver or passenger side of the car, I guess. I took from the post that it would have been the former, and that the cyclist was overtaking the car turning right, as opposed to heading towards it, meaning there would be blame on both sides (driver should check blind spot, but cyclist should not really be overtaking a car on the right which is indicating and likely to complete a right turn), whereas if the car was oncoming and turned in front, then 100% the car was wrong, and the cyclist should have been more visible on the outside of the queue of traffic.

ah, I was picturing the car and cyclist facing opposite directions.

CatFromHue

Vincenzo Nibbly wrote: »

It's impossible to tell from the video, as the camera is not pointed at the bike.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/watch-shocking-moment-cyclist-hit-by-car-at-busy-city-junction-34194439.html

There's a longer clip on the indo's website.

Doesn't look like he'd front lights on his bike anyway.

Wishbone Ash

CatFromHue wrote: »

...Doesn't look like he'd front lights on his bike anyway.

Well he said he had (not something he would say if he hadn't) and the driver clearly says she was looking in the other direction.

I do think the cyclist had an opportunity to take move evasive action in the last few seconds. It's not as if he was hammering along.

Tenzor07

CatFromHue wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/watch-shocking-moment-cyclist-hit-by-car-at-busy-city-junction-34194439.html

There's a longer clip on the indo's website.

Doesn't look like he'd front lights on his bike anyway.

Here's the full video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBpUyul0BuY

And his front light could have broken off?

As for "shocking moment"... hardly!

Kaisr Sose

buffalo wrote: »

If I've understood you correctly there, surely the cyclist was directly in front of the driver the entire time they were approaching?

If I understood @onmebike his ref to car and cyclist is a different incident (to video) and in his incident, both car and cyclist were going in the same direction, but the car pulled (turned) across the cyclist who coming along on the outside (rhs) of the car (in middle of road.

Unknown Soldier

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Here's the full video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBpUyul0BuY

And his front light could have broken off?

As for "shocking moment"... hardly!

Still here http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/watch-scary-moment-car-collides-6814315

This is a prime example of where a cyclist has to look after themselves.

Amazingly the traffic has stopped and left the yellow box clear!

You have to slow down when you come to them and make sure there is no traffic coming left or right, now that the yellow box is free.

That is why they are there.

It is an obvious danger point.

Why can't people get that?

Tenzor07

that's a poxy right turn in a car..from experience it's very hard to see anything coming out from the right hand side at night and in heavy traffic... could have been avoided IMO

tomasrojo

Unknown Soldier wrote: »

Amazingly the traffic has stopped and left the yellow box clear!

You have to slow down when you come to them and make sure there is no traffic coming left or right, now that the yellow box is free.

That is why they are there.

It is an obvious danger point.

Why can't people get that?

My closest call was passing through a yellow box when the cars were all stopped. At that moment, as a car swung in from the side into the "empty" space, it became alarmingly obvious how dangerous entering the yellow box was. Before that moment, I had had no idea. I usually just wait with the cars now, which is perhaps too cautious.

onmebike

schemingbohemia wrote: »

But in the actual scenario that I linked to, the cyclist is in the correct lane for turning right ahead and the driver continues a manoeuvre into a blind section and knocks the cyclist over, if it had been a motorcyclist going at anything over 30km/h there could have been a death.

I'm not sure if we're at cross purposes. You're right there, but I was referring to a different incident that I saw a couple of years ago.

Fian wrote: »

If a car is in a line of traffic indicating to turn right, and a cyclist comes outside the line of traffic overtaking him, despite his indicators being on, resulting in the bike colliding with a car that it was trying to overtake while the car was in the process of turning right, I blame the cyclist.

If a car or motorbike were overtaking in that manner I would also blame them.

Me too!

onmebike

CatFromHue wrote: »

Does the cyclist have any lights?

It doesn't look like it anyway, or not any good lights.

I saw the longer version of the video on Facebook last night. I can't see any lights, but one of the first things the cyclist says to the driver is something like "did you not see my lights?". She didn't rebuke him, so I'd imagine he had.

onmebike

buffalo wrote: »

If I've understood you correctly there, surely the cyclist was directly in front of the driver the entire time they were approaching?

Sorry - maybe I wasn't clear. The bike was going the same direction and was about to overtake the car that was turning right into the estate.

CatFromHue

onmebike wrote: »

I saw the longer version of the video on Facebook last night. I can't see any lights, but one of the first things the cyclist says to the driver is something like "did you not see my lights?". She didn't rebuke him, so I'd imagine he had.

yeah maybe he did but then again there are lights and there are lights.

you do see some cyclists out with lights the same power as the light on an 80's casio watch light.

Danbo!

Unknown Soldier wrote: »

Still here http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/watch-scary-moment-car-collides-6814315

This is a prime example of where a cyclist has to look after themselves.

Amazingly the traffic has stopped and left the yellow box clear!

You have to slow down when you come to them and make sure there is no traffic coming left or right, now that the yellow box is free.

That is why they are there.

It is an obvious danger point.

Why can't people get that?

Exactly. Passing a yellow box in traffic is generally quite ropey even on the left, especially if it is dark and there is a truck there blocking your view and opposing traffic's view of you.

I've often been in a similar situation to the video but on the kerb side, most motorists pulling out of the side road will see the traffic backed up and turn their attention to the traffic coming from the left.

Yeah, from a rules of the road standpoint the driver should have been more alert but if you have your wits about you, you can predict and avoid these situations by cycling defensively.

Defensive/predictive cycling is next to non-existent in Dublin from what I have seen. I found myself getting much better at it after learning to drive and seeing it from the other perspective. Far too often I see a driver making a mistake or their attention lapses and cyclists get mouthy to prove a point - example: a car turning right, the following car undertakes them into a cycle lane - I've seen cyclists speed up to put themselves in a position between the car and kerb, where they can scream, whereas they could have just backed off a bit. Yes, the motorist was wrong, but so what? Prove a point by being hit or put up with it and be home 4 seconds later. I guess it comes with experience of seeing these situations.

Another good example was that cyclist from cork with the helmet cam (EDIT; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwmCMAmqBtY - warning, horrible quality) that kept putting himself in a dangerous position with cars turning left across him. Every day, kept sitting in blind spots. He was the real 'winner' in those situations.

eeeee

Danbo! wrote: »

Exactly. Passing a yellow box in traffic is generally quite ropey even on the left, especially if it is dark and there is a truck there blocking your view and opposing traffic's view of you.

I've often been in a similar situation to the video but on the kerb side, most motorists pulling out of the side road will see the traffic backed up and turn their attention to the traffic coming from the left.

Yeah, from a rules of the road standpoint the driver should have been more alert but if you have your wits about you, you can predict and avoid these situations by cycling defensively.

Defensive/predictive cycling is next to non-existent in Dublin from what I have seen. I found myself getting much better at it after learning to drive and seeing it from the other perspective. Far too often I see a driver making a mistake or their attention lapses and cyclists get mouthy to prove a point - example: a car turning right, the following car undertakes them into a cycle lane - I've seen cyclists speed up to put themselves in a position between the car and kerb, where they can scream, whereas they could have just backed off a bit. Yes, the motorist was wrong, but so what? Prove a point by being hit or put up with it and be home 4 seconds later. I guess it comes with experience of seeing these situations.

Another good example was that cyclist from cork with the helmet cam (EDIT; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwmCMAmqBtY - warning, horrible quality) that kept putting himself in a dangerous position with cars turning left across him. Every day, kept sitting in blind spots. He was the real 'winner' in those situations.

I cycle defensively. I encounter A LOT of other cyclists cycling defensively. I see lots that don't too. I have yet to see a fellow cyclist speed up into the path of an oncomming/encroaching vehicle. I have seen people misjudge things, but not deliberately speed up into the path of an oncoming vehicle to cause a confrontation. I myself have caught up with cars that cut me off at lights naturally, and had a word. No shouting, but I did let tham know what they did was dangerous.

CramCycle

gadetra wrote: »

I cycle defensively. I encounter A LOT of other cyclists cycling defensively. I see lots that don't too. I have yet to see a fellow cyclist speed up into the path of an oncomming/encroaching vehicle. I have seen people misjudge things, but not deliberately speed up into the path of an oncoming vehicle to cause a confrontation. I myself have caught up with cars that cut me off at lights naturally, and had a word. No shouting, but I did let tham know what they did was dangerous.

I have unfortunately seen both cyclists and motorists at this. I never understood the rationale. Not often but it is common enough to be notable. Maybe not to cause a confrontation but somewhere deep down, just to be really annoying.

Cyclists speeding up to get in front of the turning vehicle instead of just staying as you are and letting them pass and then going behind. Motorists do it as well, more often in fact. Speed up when being overtaken or speeding up to a junction for no real reason other than to block someone getting out of their driveway or similar.

check_six

What about the manoeuver where a car gets stuck mid-junction trying to turn, the lights turn, and the a car waiting to go lurches forward and blares the horn at the fellow in the junction. To my mind, the car in the junction did not fall from space as the other car was waiting. They've been looking at them for 30 seconds, maybe a minute, but when they get the green, "Blarrgh! Where did they come from?!" Paaarrrrp!.

As I understand it, you must allow the car in the junction to clear it before proceeding assuming they entered the junction on their own green. Any thoughts?

Muahahaha

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/watch-shocking-moment-cyclist-hit-by-car-at-busy-city-junction-34194439.html

Pretty bad collision but he's okay. Not sure if he should have been on the right hand side of the road at that point, perhaps for his own safety sticking left might have prevented it? Not blaming the cyclist or anything, the car driver clearly didn't see him or his lights.

I'm often in that position on the right hand side of the road on a motorbike, but you'd always slow down a bit before the yellow box when there's stopped traffic around you and a chance a car could edge of of your view and cause an accident like that cyclist had. But if I was cycling in that same scenario I'd keep to the cycle lane for my own safety.

bluesteel86

Doesn't look like the cyclist has any lights at all. No wonder she didn't see him. Also, he's overtaking a large truck on the right hand side at a junction, making him obscured from view. The cycle lane was completely unobstructed too. Cyclists fault here I think

hanna200

re: Watch: Shocking moment cyclist hit by car at busy city junction

Clearly this time the driver was at fault.
Stop for the moment and think and remember about the rules of the road. The driver of car tried to merge into the main road, and the driver was under the obligation to yield into anything including the cyclist, card and motorbikes and to pay attention to both sides of the traffic and not continuing by just looking at left side of the road.
The cyclist was correct and was not at fault at all.
Cyclist simply continued into the merged right turn lane. This time 100% drivers fault.

eeeee

Threads merged

Muahahaha

Weepsie wrote: »

But the cyclist also clearly doesn't use common sense. Stopped truck, and what looks wholly like a single lane of traffic until after the yellow box. When they look back, it is also a single lane.

The driver is probably more at fault, especially in legal terms, but the cyclist should also proceed with greater caution when there is a truck blocking the view of the driver and himself.

I think this is the best analysis of it. One thing I must give the cyclist credit for is looking over his right shoulder just before he changed lane. In motorbiking that safety glance to check your blindspot before shifting road position is called a life saver, and with good reason.

But that said the cyclist didn't seem to slow down at all when he came from behind a truck and into the yellow box. His pace seemed constant but he really should have given his brakes a quick squeeze before entering the yellow box, especially as he didn't have a clear view of all of the junction due to the truck to his left.

I think the driver is in the majority blame here but also that the cyclist should learn a lesson and adjust his style of cycling. From the Indo article it says he is a bike courier so perhaps he is too used to cycling on the edge under pressure to get places and this was a time when his cycling style contributed to him coming a cropper.

Kaisr Sose

I came across this reporting on the inquest into the death of a cyclist in the UK:

http://road.cc/content/news/171190-coroner-lorry-driver-would-not-have-expected-encounter-cyclist-he-killed

It's not a hopeful finding...effectively the cyclist did nothing wrong other than be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and the driver seemingly absolved of any wrong doing!!!

radia

That is really alarming.

"The driver told Gloucester Coroner’s Court he was joining the dual carriageway A40 from a slip road off the M5 when he spotted a reflector on Mr O’Connell’s bike.
He said he could not avoid hitting the cyclist because of vehicles in the outside lane as he joined the road at a speed of 45 miles an hour."

So the better choice is to drive into and kill a cyclist than to edge towards those who are surrounded by protective metal with crumple zones etc.

“Mr Ashford would not have expected a cyclist to be on that road at that time of night and did not see him until it was too late to take avoiding action."

Why on earth not? It's an ordinary dual carriageway. Cyclists don't have some kind of curfew on them.

Seems like yet another case of not seeing what you're not looking for - the moonwalking bear effect.

Cycling charity guy has summed it up well:

“If the lorry driver was unable to see Mr O’Connell until it was too late to avoid him, that rather suggests he was driving too fast for the conditions.

“Rather than deflecting blame to the cyclist the question to ask is why the driver did not slow down if driving rain hindered his vision.

“Unfortunately the focus seems to have been the actions of the cyclist rather than why the driver was unable to see a cyclist with a rear light and a high visibility jacket.

“The message to cyclists seems to be that a driver’s duty of care to vulnerable road users does not apply on busy A-roads where they are, apparently, not expected to be!”

Kaisr Sose

^^^100%
It's bizarre that the driver apparently thinks hitting a cyclist is preferable to impeding other traffic. Maybe there is more to this than can be published at this time (ie a possible prosecution of the driver). However, in that case, you would think it would have been adjourned pending the outcome of the legal.

Only a week ago I was driving on a motorway (middle lane) with mainly trucks in the inner lane going slower. All of a sudden one of the trucks (a 40ft Artic) indicated to pull out and immediately pulls out just as I am just along side. I had traffic behind me, so I flashed and beeped horn, he kept coming out. I braked but was trapped in the middle lane unable to even move to outside lane due to other traffic in that lane. Thankfully the truck turned back in but only because he had to do so to avoid taking my wing off. Seconds later, as I passed along side his cab, he rolled his window down, turned towards me and looking quite irate, gestured (pointing to me and then the outside lane) that I should have moved out of his way and into the outside lane! Bizarrely, that means he saw me before he even pulled out but dis not care. He wanted out and thought that was his right while driving a 40ft artic with total disrespect for the safety of other road users. What chance would a cyclist with this type of 'it's all about me' attitude!

Meanwhile on a daily basis I see lots of vehicles driving through red lights like they don't mean anything....So yes, bad driving is on the increase and it a miracle that fatalities are not increasing. That statistic is probably due to improvements in vehicle safety and then advances in trauma care, rather than anything remotely attributable to the RSA or enforcement / visible policing on roads.

el tel

RainyDay wrote: »

Speak for yourself.

I did

RainyDay

el tel wrote: »

I did

Silly old me - I thought that when you said "probably most of us" that you were speaking for probably most of us.

Qualitymark

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Meanwhile on a daily basis I see lots of vehicles driving through red lights like they don't mean anything....So yes, bad driving is on the increase and it a miracle that fatalities are not increasing. That statistic is probably due to improvements in vehicle safety and then advances in trauma care, rather than anything remotely attributable to the RSA or enforcement / visible policing on roads.

I agree. I was cycling in town the other day and stopped at the lights on that wiggle into Earlsfort Terrace coming from Rathmines. I wasn't counting, but it must have been a good 20 seconds after the lights had turned red that a driver came up, hesitated, then whizzed straight through and over the Luas lines. Must have been rushing to Holles Street, I reckoned; nothing else could have been so important.