1916 commercialised

whisky_galore · 05-11-2015 11:40am #1

http://www.irishexaminer.com/examviral/fun-times/poll-people-are-divided-on-this-1916-rising-commemorative-chocolate-bar-363066.html

Not really outraged, more in wonderment on how on earth someone thought this was a good idea.

Opinions?

Del.Monte · 05-11-2015 12:49pm

I couldn't care less myself and I intend to invest in a couple of the chocolate bars - they are tacky enough to go up in value. Heatons got plenty of free advertising and are the chocolate bars any more awful than the plethora of new books etc. on the subject of 1916. It's a dog eat dog world out there with everybody looking to make a quick buck.

whisky_galore · 05-11-2015 12:57pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

I couldn't care less myself and I intend to invest in a couple of the chocolate bars - they are tacky enough to go up in value. Heatons got plenty of free advertising and are the chocolate bars any more awful than the plethora of new books etc. on the subject of 1916. It's a dog eat dog world out there with everybody looking to make a quick buck.

Would you change your tune if it was a Gallipoli Turkish Delight or a Flanders Mud Pie that was being marketed?

Del.Monte · 05-11-2015 1:01pm

Fair point but there is an awful amount of tat produced to commemorate British historical events too. There's a lot of bandwagons being attached to the 1916 centenary and a shed load of revisionism - as I say, I'll be working on an angle too - starting with the chocolate bars if they are still available.

LordSutch · 07-11-2015 4:29pm

1916 this, 1916 that, the heroes of 1916, etc etc etc Ad nauseam . . . . .

But the real 1916 'elephant in the room' commemoration is always left out!

The Somme

Irish lives lost on an industrial scale in The Great War that same year.
Not that it's broadcast to loudly > in the lead up to 2016...

Arsemageddon · 07-11-2015 11:17pm

LordSutch wrote: »

1916 this, 1916 that, the heroes of 1916, etc etc etc Ad nauseam . . . . .

But the real 1916 'elephant in the room' commemoration is always left out!

The Somme

Irish lives lost on an industrial scale in The Great War that very year!
Not that it's broadcast to loudly in the lead up to 1916...

There is no 'elephant in the room'. World War One and the Battle of the Somme are commemorated every year on Remembrance Sunday in the Republic of Ireland. No doubt there is a major commemoration ceremony planned for the centenary of the battle and President Higgins will attend on behalf of Ireland as he did the Gallipoli commemoration ceremony.

The Easter Rising is the seminal event in the foundation of the Republic of Ireland. Until recently it was barely commemorated by the state and had been appropriated by the more extreme elements of Irish republicanism. In my humble opinion, it is correct that the state is commemorating 1916 on behalf of the Irish people regardless of their political beliefs.

LordSutch · 08-11-2015 1:44am

Arsemageddon wrote: »

. The Easter Rising is the seminal event in ththe Republic of Ireland. Until recently it was barely commemorated by the state and had been appropriated by the more extreme elements of Irish republicanism. In my humble opinion, it is correct that the state is commemorating 1916 on behalf of the Irish people regardless of their political beliefs.

I couldn't disagree more. Personally speaking I think the rising was the beginning of the rot that led to partition, the civil war, and many of the ills that this country put itself through for many decades to come. My own family lived through the Rising in Dublin, and they would have been fervently 'anti Rebel' and 'anti Rising' ... as would of the rest of the population (at that time).

Myth, hindsight, and the need to have a "seminal event" that launched the Republic is what's behind this 100th commemoration, of a sad, devisive, and destructive event that caused more problems than the deluded perpetrators could ever have imagined.

My view is of course the minority view today!

Funny how the intervening years have changed what was so unpopular (at the time) into something which is to be commemorated and maybe even celebrated by some?

An Claidheamh · 08-11-2015 2:08am

LordSutch wrote: »

1916 this, 1916 that, the heroes of 1916, etc etc etc Ad nauseam . . . . .

But the real 1916 'elephant in the room' commemoration is always left out!

The Somme
Irish lives lost on an industrial scale in The Great War that same year.
Not that it's broadcast to loudly > in the lead up to 2016...

Funny you want attention on the somme...

...just proves what we all knew already.

That those moaning about the money spent on rebellion commemorations don't have a problem with the waste on ww1 commemorations.

An Claidheamh · 08-11-2015 2:18am

LordSutch wrote: »

1916 this, 1916 that, the heroes of 1916, etc etc etc Ad nauseam . . . . .

But the real 1916 'elephant in the room' commemoration is always left out!

The Somme
Irish lives lost on an industrial scale in The Great War that same year.
Not that it's broadcast to loudly > in the lead up to 2016...

Not broadcast too loudly? They never shut up about ww1!!!!!

They say so much about it but really say nothing.
(The 100 year anniversary of the great war was indeed a complete flop though.
They probably won't even bother with the end of it they're so useless.)

Nothing about the lies that sent those men there, the fact that the Irish weren't allowed have their own regiment like the British nations were, that the majority of those shot by the British at dawn were Irish, that home rule was cancelled by the British after the huge effort the Irish put into that imperialist conflict, that IRA men like Tom Barry fought in WW1 and then led the IRA - but you wouldn't want that...

You want people to glorify the violence of ww1 like the way the British media do, I just wish people would actually learn about it!

Irish lives lost on an industrial scale ...... for nothing. So just celebrate meaningless British imperialist violence and bloodshed, sure why not? It's not like it's ever caused problems anywhere B-) .

Your family were against it? ...... So .... I'm pretty sure your family were probably against the American revolution, the end of the British empire, Germany winning the world cup, the european union, the belfast agreement .... Lol

Why weren't they in Flanders anyway

?

An Claidheamh · 08-11-2015 2:20am

LordSutch wrote: »

Funny how the intervening years have changed what was so unpopular (at the time) into something which is to be commemorated and maybe even celebrated by some?

Intervening years? You mean until 1919?

Arsemageddon · 08-11-2015 2:58am

LordSutch wrote: »

I couldn't disagree more. Personally speaking I think the rising was the beginning of the rot that led to partition, the civil war, and many of the ills that this country put itself through for many decades to come.

Well I'd counter by saying that the foundation of the UVF, the Larne gun running and The Curragh mutiny and of the course the veto by the unelected House of Lords served to subvert the peaceful, democratic vote of the Irish people for Home Rule.

My own family lived through the Rising in Dublin, and they would have been
fervently 'anti Rebel' and 'anti Rising' ... as would of the rest of the
population (at that time).

Eh, so what? Every Irish family lived through the rising. It's also worth noting that the Rising was not as wildly unpopular at the time as you seem to think.

Myth, hindsight, and the need to have a "seminal event" that launched the
Republic is what's behind this 100th commemoration, of a sad, devisive, and destructive event that caused more problems than the deluded perpetrators could ever have imagined.

Pretty much every nation has a seminal event, the French celebrate the storming of the Bastille (even though there was hardly any prisoners liberated from that prison). The Yanks celebrate Independence day even though their declaration of independence led to people being killed during the War of Independence (damn ungrateful colonials!). I believe our fine sectarian friends in the North annually celebrate a minor battle 325 years ago on the 12th of July.

Like it or not fella, the rising was the most important event in Ireland's revolutionary period. Loading all the blame for every bad thing that has happened in Ireland since 1916 solely on the heads of those who took part in the rising is ahistorical, ideologically driven nonsense.

Funny how the intervening years have changed what was so unpopular (at the time) into something which is to be commemorated and maybe even celebrated by some?

In the general election of December 1918 Sinn Fein won 73 out of 105 seats. That was a pretty clear mandate for independence from Britain. The intervening period you speak of was less than three years.

Personally, I don't give two hoots about commemorations of any kind. I just posted in this thread because for some reason you felt the need to pretend that the Battle of the Somme is not/will not be commemorated in Ireland to demonstrate your contrarian credentials.

Jesus. · 08-11-2015 3:20am

LordSutch wrote: »

Funny how the intervening years have changed what was so unpopular (at the time) into something which is to be commemorated and maybe even celebrated by some?

Not really the intervening years though. It was a year or so, perhaps only a few months afterwards when it became popular. Not the 100 years you suggest

LordSutch · 08-11-2015 11:04am

Numbers wise I think about four hundred people died in the 1916 Rising, while in the same year, something like five thousand Irish men died at the Somme in just two days! > hence my Elephant in the room comment.

My comments revolve around the fact that that (at particular moment in time) the Rising took everybody by surprise, civilians were killed, policemen killed, Dublin destroyed by fire, artillary and looting, and the Rebels where dispised by all. It was not a popular Rising (at that moment in time)!

Of course after the rebels were executed things changed, I'm not disputing that.
But the Rebels did what they did without permission from the Irish people. Fact.

The Somme (loss of Irish life) was the major event of 1916.

I don't deny the Rising happened, I'm just simply saying lets remember the terrible loss of life at the Somme, which was on an industrial scale (compared to the casualties in the Rising).

Arsemageddon · 08-11-2015 1:08pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Numbers wise I think about four hundred people died in the 1916 Rising, while in the same year, something like five thousand Irish men died at the Somme in just two days! > hence my Elephant in the room comment.

I'm pretty sure that most of the users of this forum are well aware of the fact that more Irish died at the Battle of the Somme than in the 1916 Rising. I just do not understand why some there is a need to categorise violence by Irish Nationalists/Republicans that caused 500 deaths is 'bad' yet a failed British offensive that led to the deaths of about 400,000 is 'good' or 'glorious'.

My comments revolve around the fact that that (at particular moment in
time) the Rising took everybody by surprise, civilians were killed, policemen
killed, Dublin destroyed by fire, artillary and looting, and the Rebels where
dispised by all. It was not a popular Rising (at that moment in time)!

The reason the rising was the seminal event in the foundation of the Republic is that it changed people's opinions of what the relationship with Britain should be. History doesn't come with arbitrary, convenient cut off points. It's not like a football match when the referee blows the final whistle it's over.

Of course after the rebels were executed things changed, I'm not disputing that. But the Rebels did what they did without permission from the Irish people.
Fact.

Funnily enough I don't remember there being any referenda on whether us ungrateful micks should hand over our best land to Britain, or to have Catholics barred from voting or the professions. Or for that matter I don't think that millions democratically decided to starve to death during the famine.

The Union with Britain was brought about through coercion and bribery of an all protestant Irish Parliament with voting rights restricted to men of property.

........and as per one of my previous posts in this thread there was the threat of civil war from the Loyalist community after the passing of the third Home Rule (which begs the question of what exactly they were loyal to)

Given all that it's a bit late in the day for a unionist to say that the damned micks weren't playing by the rules.

The Somme (loss of Irish life) was the major event of 1916.

I don't deny the Rising happened, I'm just simply saying lets remember the terrible loss of life at the Somme, which was on an industrial scale (compared to the casualties in the Rising).

No way fella, what you were trying to do as per usual was childish shinner baiting. You attempted to used the Somme to delegitimise the 1916 rising by reducing both events to a numbers game.

Anyway, It happened 99 years ago, your side ultimately lost, it's time to get over it.

Del.Monte · 08-11-2015 2:00pm

Came across this online.

LordSutch · 08-11-2015 3:03pm

Arsemageddon wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that most of the users of this forum are well aware of the fact that more Irish died at the Battle of the Somme than in the 1916 Rising. I just do not understand why some there is a need to categorise violence by Irish Nationalists/Republicans that caused 500 deaths is 'bad' yet a failed British offensive that led to the deaths of about 400,000 is 'good' or 'glorious'.

I am only going to reply to this part^ of your rant, as you seem like somebody who likes to bait and argue for the sake of your own Republican agenda. You mention BAD, GOOD and Glourious as if I had printed it, (but I didn't), so how dare you attribute something to me from this thread that I never said.

Just read my post 'No13' again, and you will see no mention of bad, good or Glourious.

I am saying the massive loss of life at the Somme is being totally overshadowed by the Rising, never mind the commercilised aspect which has been introduced into the 2016 commemoration of the Rising, as brought up by whisky galore in the Opening Post.

steddyeddy · 08-11-2015 3:03pm

LordSutch wrote: »

1916 this, 1916 that, the heroes of 1916, etc etc etc Ad nauseam . . . . .

But the real 1916 'elephant in the room' commemoration is always left out!

The Somme
Irish lives lost on an industrial scale in The Great War that same year.
Not that it's broadcast to loudly > in the lead up to 2016...

There are many groups that try to bring light to the Irish soldiers who died in the Somme L. Part of the problem they encountered was from Ulster unionists who claimed "the Somme's ours".

rockatansky · 08-11-2015 3:05pm

LordSutch wrote: »

1916 this, 1916 that, the heroes of 1916, etc etc etc Ad nauseam . . . . .

But the real 1916 'elephant in the room' commemoration is always left out!

The Somme
Irish lives lost on an industrial scale in The Great War that same year.
Not that it's broadcast to loudly > in the lead up to 2016...

This whole 1916 Rising Commemoration is really getting to you isn't it? Have you thought about taking a year off and going traveling for 2016? Might be good for your sanity!

Also why is the large text in your post white?

Arsemageddon · 08-11-2015 3:10pm

LordSutch wrote: »

I am only going to reply to this part^ of your rant, as you seem like somebody who likes to bait and argue for the sake of your own Republican agenda. You mention BAD, GOOD and Glourious as if I had printed it, (but I didn't), so how dare you attribute something to me from this thread that I never said.

Just read my post 'No13' again, and you will see no mention of bad, good or Glourious.

First off, I don't have a Republican agenda. I just think your contribution to this thread (and indeed many others) is nothing more than simplistic rabble rousing aimed to get a rise out of those dastardly shinners.

You still haven't backed up your 'elephant in the room' comment with anything but tired clichés. Maybe you could explain exactly why you think people in the Republic of Ireland should consider the Battle of the Somme more worthy of commemoration than the 1916 rising?

You also challenged my use of the word 'seminal' in relation to 1916, if I'm wrong about this then maybe can you point out what was the pivotal moment in the Irish fight for independence?

LordSutch · 08-11-2015 3:11pm

rockatansky wrote: »

This whole 1916 Rising Commemoration is really getting to you isn't it? Have you thought about taking a year off and going traveling for 2016? Might be good for your sanity!

The Somme (1916) is being totally overshadowed, that's what I'm saying.

rockatansky wrote: »

Also why is the large text in your post white?

The elephant in the room is a saying which means that something is sooo big as to not be seen, hence the white text in post No:1 to convey the message, which remains invisible because its soo Big.

Can't see the wood for the treesds is another similar saying.

Jesus. · 08-11-2015 3:16pm

LordSutch wrote: »

how dare you attribute something to me from this thread that I never said.

Oh don't be such a big girl :rolleyes:

Jesus. · 08-11-2015 3:16pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Numbers wise I think about four hundred people died in the 1916 Rising

It was closer to 500

LordSutch · 08-11-2015 3:17pm

Arsemageddon wrote: »

First off, I don't have a Republican agenda. I just think your contribution to this thread (and indeed many others) is nothing more than simplistic rabble rousing aimed to get a rise out of those dastardly shinners.

You still haven't backed up your 'elephant in the room' comment with anything but tired clichés. Maybe you could explain exactly why you think people in the Republic of Ireland should consider the Battle of the Somme more worthy of commemoration than the 1916 rising?

You also challenged my use of the word 'seminal' in relation to 1916, if I'm wrong about this then maybe can you point out what was the pivotal moment in the Irish fight for independence?

There you go again, I never challenged you over the use of the word 'sminal' ...What's wrong with you?

At this point I'm really not interested in replying to you anymore, your post are devious and not very pleasant.

My posts in this thread stand up to scrutiny.

I won't mention the Somme again.

Bye.

LordSutch · 08-11-2015 3:18pm

Jesus. wrote: »

Oh don't be such a big girl :rolleyes:

Sorry, I must have got the wrong poster.

my friend · 08-11-2015 3:28pm

Comrade Joe Duffy has no issues profiting from the blood of others, constantly promoting his buke on licence fee paid for radio, highly unusual practice when one considers RTE will profit in no way.

IMO Joe is more pathetic than the chocolate bar

All joes socialist bs and claptrap for James Connolly equate to nothing, for its clear to see that Joe is a total blood profiting uber capitalist

(No issue with capitalism but despise spoofers that pretend to be something they're clearly not)

Jesus. · 08-11-2015 3:48pm

LordSutch wrote: »

My comments revolve around the fact that that (at particular moment in time) the Rising took everybody by surprise, civilians were killed, policemen killed, Dublin destroyed by fire, artillary and looting, and the Rebels where dispised by all. It was not a popular Rising (at that moment in time)!

That's all fair but what I don't understand is why you don't apply that same logic to WW1? Much of Europe and Russia was destroyed by fire, artillary and looting. Do you think WW1 was a popular war amongst the people of the protagonists? Have you any idea how many innocent civilians were killed in that great conflict?

Besides there is a programme of events to commemorate the Somme:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/state-announces-battle-of-the-somme-centenary-programme-1.2420393

But what you're missing is that the Rising was the event which led to the creation of the current State, not the Somme. So in that respect its quite obvious why the centenary would be a big date for the ROI. For example 1976 was the bicentennial of the USA's pivotal moment in the emergence of their new State and they rightly marked it. And lets not even mention the yearly circus that is Northern Ireland on 12th July.

You hearing me m'lord?

Arsemageddon · 08-11-2015 3:53pm

LordSutch wrote: »

There you go again, I never challenged you over the use of the word 'sminal' ...What'swrong with you?

At this point I'm really not interested in replying to you anymore, your post are devious and not very pleasant.

My posts in this thread stand up to scrutiny.

I won't mention the Somme again.

Bye.

Below is a direct quote from you in post #7 -

Myth, hindsight, and the need to have a "seminal event" that launched the Republic is what's behind this 100th commemoration, of a sad, devisive,and destructive event that caused more problems than the deluded perpetrators could ever have imagined

I don't think my posts are devious, as a matter of fact they are pretty straight forward - I'm challenging your interpretation of Irish History. That's the kind of thing to be expected on a history forum.

La Fenetre · 08-11-2015 3:59pm

The somme and the 'rising' of 1916 all have one thing in common.
- They were always commercial activities.
Getting other people to kill and die for you, so one set of cronies can be replaced with another set intent on enriching themselves at the expensive of ordinary people.
Patriotism is the last refuge of users and tyrants.

My country is my family and I.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAxJb1v-SnU

Jesus. · 08-11-2015 4:01pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Myth, hindsight, and the need to have a "seminal event" that launched the Republic is what's behind this 100th commemoration, of a sad, devisive,and destructive event that caused more problems than the deluded perpetrators could ever have imagined.

I always find it amusing when Unionists cite the Rising as the cause of all Ireland's ills instead of the coercive and catastrophic rule Britain enforced on Ireland prior to that. Lets not forget that the Famine was still in living memory at the time let alone the Land War which followed.

LordSutch · 08-11-2015 6:44pm

Jesus. wrote: »

I always find it amusing when Unionists cite the Rising as the cause of all Ireland's ills instead of the coercive and catastrophic rule Britain enforced on Ireland prior to that. Lets not forget that the Famine was still in living memory at the time let alone the Land War which followed.

Context.

LordSutch wrote: »

My own family lived through the Rising in Dublin, and they would have been fervently 'anti Rebel' and 'anti Rising' ... as would of the rest of the population (at that time).

La Fenetre · 08-11-2015 6:46pm

It's true, the vast majority of Dublin people were staunchly jackine in 1916 until they smelled which way the politics, money and balance of power was going to shift to . . . and we've had Charlies, Inda's and Berties ever since . . .

1916 commercialised

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