**Spoilers** Series 9, Episode 8 - "The Zygon Inversion"

FunLover18

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote:

You have a theory?

Unfortunately not but it just seemed TOO obvious to be an Easter egg. It was really shoved in our faces.

SueBoom

Christ, Coleman was excellent in this episode. Outstanding.

will56

Anyone else prefer when Doctor who takes a more serious tone like the past couple of episodes and less Monster of the week ?

I think Capaldi and Coleman are so much better when they have dialogue and writing like this episode to work with. Even my wife was commenting on Clara and Zygella/Bonny being very different characters - not just Coleman doing her hair differently

Loved the Doctor's speech about war !

Eugene Norman

Good episode.

The longest month. Very foreboding. If he kills or traps another companion I think he can't really justify taking on anymore.

Penn

ixoy wrote: »

This is what I've thought since the second episode of this season. When the Doctor saw Clara trapped in the Dalek he said something like "Oh Clara" with a world of sorrow in his voice.
Then suddenly we've cut to a perfectly happy Clara, out of the Dalek with no word of how she got out. I'm guessing she didn't.

I was thinking you might be right, but then at the start of that two-parter, the older black woman from UNIT is there. If she was killed in the Zygon attack, then it would have to take place after the Missy/Dalek episodes. But if Clara died in the Missy/Dalek episodes, then the Zygon attack would have had to have happened before the Missy/Dalek episodes, which doesn't account for the woman from UNIT still being alive in those episodes.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

will56 wrote: »

Anyone else prefer when Doctor who takes a more serious tone like the past couple of episodes and less Monster of the week ?

I think Capaldi and Coleman are so much better when they have dialogue and writing like this episode to work with. Even my wife was commenting on Clara and Zygella/Bonny being very different characters - not just Coleman doing her hair differently

Loved the Doctor's speech about war !

I think I've said it in every episode thread this year... possibly last year too.... but since you asked.... I love Capaldi and Coleman together and especially when they're given something meaty to work with. Everyone knows Capaldi is a brilliant actor but I think he really got to show it in this episode. I saw somewhere, possibly The Guardian, call that speech his defining moment as The Doctor. Coleman was excellent too and I still think it's a shame they wasted her for an entire series alongside Matt Smith. I was reading something yesterday about Capaldi sort of convincing her to stay on for this series because he didn't want her to leave so soon after he arrived. I'm glad it worked.... even if it means she now gets a rather unpleasant ending.

Penn wrote: »

I was thinking you might be right, but then at the start of that two-parter, the older black woman from UNIT is there. If she was killed in the Zygon attack, then it would have to take place after the Missy/Dalek episodes. But if Clara died in the Missy/Dalek episodes, then the Zygon attack would have had to have happened before the Missy/Dalek episodes, which doesn't account for the woman from UNIT still being alive in those episodes.

The other thing I'm thinking is if she is already dead then The Doctor should know when and how she dies therefore he shouldn't be worried about her all the time, and shouldn't have thought she was dead when Bonnie told him she was.

Unless.... these adventures hadn't happened up to the point she died and they're now bonus adventures meaning she could still die in them.... ?

EDIT: But now I'm also thinking about the scene where Missy and Clara find the Doctor in the first episode this series and they think he's about to die and she says something like "which one of us is about to die?":eek:

Angron

I ended up missing the start of the episode live, so out of curiosity how did the good Doctor avoid missile death on the plane?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Angron wrote: »

I ended up missing the start of the episode live, so out of curiosity how did the good Doctor avoid missile death on the plane?

Real Clara was trapped inside a kind of dream state thing where she was basically at home in her flat. She could see (through the TV) and hear some of the things that Bonnie was doing and realised she could influence what Bonnie did through sheer power of will. So basically she shook the telly a bit which made Bonnie miss with the first missile and then managed to stop her pulling the trigger long enough on the second missile to allow the Doctor and Osgood to parachute out of the plane.

I guess they left the crew and the captive Zygon to die...

Eugene Norman

Dr who normally follows the doctors timeline. With gaps. However it doesn't have to. In the middle of this adventure the doctor could have jumped into a tardis, met future Clara, got her killed and come back to finish up here. A real time traveller could do that all the time.

Probably not, though.

Penn

What's really weird is to think that technically, Clara has been his companion the longest out of anyone. She joined the Doctor when he was around 1200-something, and due to The Time Of The Doctor, he's now over 2000 years old. So you're talking at least 700 years as his "main companion".

tritium

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

The other thing I'm thinking is if she is already dead then The Doctor should know when and how she dies therefore he shouldn't be worried about her all the time, and shouldn't have thought she was dead when Bonnie told him she was.

Unless he's taken her out if her timeline and his concern is partially that she'll die earlier than she should and possible consequences of that....

They've been building up the relationship between the two so much of late that it could make for a pretty harrowing episode when Coleman eventually goes.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

tritium wrote: »

Unless he's taken her out if her timeline and his concern is partially that she'll die earlier than she should and possible consequences of that....

They've been building up the relationship between the two so much of late that it could make for a pretty harrowing episode when Coleman eventually goes.

I think it's funny that the spent all of the episodes she did with Smith trying to instill this idea that Clara was the most important person in the Doctor's life by way of her jumping in his time stream.... or whatever that was... and yet she still just felt like a plot point.
Last series and this series though they've managed to build their relationship to a point where it's believable that she's the most important person in the Doctor's life simply by being Clara.

But yes, basically, it's going to be harrowing, I'm sure.

pixelburp

Wow, that was much better than last weeks, and was capped off by possibly the strongest, most stirring and tragic speech by Capaldi's Doctor - perhaps even any of the 'new' Doctors - to date. Crazy to think that the finale basically consisted of the 12th Doctor emoting and persuading the enemy to think of the consequences and lay down their arms (touching on ideas that those who start the revolution almost never get to live in the promised land). If only real life worked that way, or we had someone that persuasive eh? Again, I can't help but think Doctor Who has become a show that's trying to wriggle out of its own constraints as a colourful, family-oriented adventure

My only quibble was the Osgood mystery: narratively it's cute & mysterious n' all, but the continuation of the whole 'which one are they?' just highlights how the whole Zygon subterfuge can't be that complete that a heatscan/DNA/something wouldn't figure out which one's which. I know that'd be pretty invasive, but I'm fairly confident the Doctor has outed imposters before by dint of his 'magical' powers, so I don't buy the notion that he's in the dark.

As for the obvious foreboding over Clara: I think at this stage it's being laid on so thick, signposted so heavily, I expect an 11th hour reversal of some tragic fate (possibly in the 2nd last episode's cliffhanger?), with the Doctor pulling another Pompei/Waters of Mars and re-writing history so Clara gets to live

therabbittest

I feel like this series so far has been consistently not ****, but not amazing either. I've enjoyed everything for the most part, but this was the first one of the series that had me really and properly excited because of how brilliant it was.

Magical stuff

pixelburp

One small, incredibly nerdy point this particular old-school fan enjoyed was the 12th Doc referring to the Zygon gas as 'The imbecile's gas'. The imbecile in question being its inventor, one Harry Sullivan. The doctor had already formed this judgement many, many years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgLgE0Ok3LI

Penn

pixelburp wrote: »

My only quibble was the Osgood mystery: narratively it's cute & mysterious n' all, but the continuation of the whole 'which one are they?' just highlights how the whole Zygon subterfuge can't be that complete that a heatscan/DNA/something wouldn't figure out which one's which. I know that'd be pretty invasive, but I'm fairly confident the Doctor has outed imposters before by dint of his 'magical' powers, so I don't buy the notion that he's in the dark.

I thought that's what it was leading to, where at the very end The Doctor would reveal he knew all along which Osgood was which, he was just testing Osgood to see if she'd still keep it secret even from him.

Busi_Girl08

pixelburp wrote: »

As for the obvious foreboding over Clara: I think at this stage it's being laid on so thick, signposted so heavily, I expect an 11th hour reversal of some tragic fate (possibly in the 2nd last episode's cliffhanger?), with the Doctor pulling another Pompei/Waters of Mars and re-writing history so Clara gets to live

My biggest fear going by this theory is that she will get a Donna-style ending.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Busi_Girl08 wrote: »

My biggest fear going by this theory is that she will get a Donna-style ending.

What happened to Donna?

Busi_Girl08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

What happened to Donna?

After she absorbed all the Doctor's knowledge he wiped her mind of any memory of him and anything to do with him, all the things she did with him, and left her back to her very mundane life.

Probably one of the most tragic endings for a companion.

I just hope that Moffat won't go down that road with Clara, wipe her memory/change timeline, etc. It will just be very cop-outy.

Also I just can't go through that pain again.

Angron

At least she won the lotto though.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Busi_Girl08 wrote: »

After she absorbed all the Doctor's knowledge he wiped her mind of any memory of him and anything to do with him, all the things she did with him, and left her back to her very mundane life.

Probably one of the most tragic endings for a companion.

I just hope that Moffat won't go down that road with Clara, wipe her memory/change timeline, etc. It will just be very cop-outy.

Also I just can't go through that pain again.

Don't like the sound of that....

The ending they did last year when Clara was originally supposed to leave worked well for me. It was quite sad but worked very well given the relationship they'd had throughout the series.

dball

FunLover18 wrote: »

Anyone else notice helmet in the room behind the doctor when he was making that big speech? Looked like the same kind of helmet used to save Masie Williams right? I can't help but feel they wanted us to notice

I just watched it now, it reminded me of K9's silhouette

Busi_Girl08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Don't like the sound of that....

The ending they did last year when Clara was originally supposed to leave worked well for me. It was quite sad but worked very well given the relationship they'd had throughout the series.

I agree. It was a really poignant ending, they both lied to each other and moved on for each others' feelings.

The way Clara's been going this year I don't see her going of her own accord.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Busi_Girl08 wrote: »

I agree. It was a really poignant ending, they both lied to each other and moved on for each others' feelings.

The way Clara's been going this year I don't see her going of her own accord.

Exactly. Last year it was always building up to her leaving. Coleman must have decided quite early on she was going because the whole series was basically leading up to her exit. This year though if they hadn't splashed it all over the media that she was going, from what's been on screen, you wouldn't think she was.