Does this make sense?

nozzferrahhtoo

Good, because I never did. So if you have any other questions about my opinion on the matter, do feel free to ask.

uck51js9zml2yt

What doesn't make sense to me is athiests fascination with a God who all keep insisting doesn't exist and is in the same realm as the Flying Spaghetti Monster who also doesn't exist.

If He doesn't exist,why can't you just ignore Him and get on with your lives or is it a case you all secretly believe in the possibility of His existence and keep trying very hard to quieten that little doubt in your heads as to His existence by your constant denials.

Shrap

Matias Cold Valor wrote: »

why can't you just ignore Him religion and get on with your lives

Slight adjustment to above, but honestly, if you can't answer that by now, having read of how frustrating the lack of church/state separation is to the lives of a large number of Irish people, then I suggest that there may be some sort of comprehension problem.

Besides, if the study of religion was left solely up to religious people, who would they answer to? Who would be equipped to call out the outrageous discrepancies between bible quotes, used willy nilly to illustrate the various "moral" standpoints that they have been bashing people with for centuries?

Saipanne

Matias Cold Valor wrote: »

What doesn't make sense to me is athiests fascination with a God who all keep insisting doesn't exist and is in the same realm as the Flying Spaghetti Monster who also doesn't exist.

If He doesn't exist,why can't you just ignore Him and get on with your lives or is it a case you all secretly believe in the possibility of His existence and keep trying very hard to quieten that little doubt in your heads as to His existence by your constant denials.

You know well how to answer all of those points yourself.

nozzferrahhtoo

Matias Cold Valor wrote: »

What doesn't make sense to me is athiests fascination with a God who all keep insisting doesn't exist and is in the same realm as the Flying Spaghetti Monster who also doesn't exist.

That has probably not got much to do with this thread, and it is actually something that has been brought up many times before on this forum, but I am happy to answer it. Actually another atheist discussed something similar along the lines of "Is atheism not a bit like not collecting stamps".

But in general atheists do not have a fascination with "A god they insist does not exist", but they are concerned with the activities and impacts of people who do think there is one.

That said however most atheists around here do not appear to be insisting no god exists, but that there is no reason to think one does. And I do not think there is any reason to believe that atheists are invested in there being no god either. They would happily acknowledge there is one should substantiation be offered. They are not atheists because they do not want there to be a god, but because there is no reason to think there is one.

On threads like this however it can be useful to engage with genuinely interesting thought experiments that allow us to explore subjects related to truth and morality and so forth. And well known cultural memes, such as Biblical stories, can be useful ways to do that.

Matias Cold Valor wrote: »

If He doesn't exist,why can't you just ignore Him and get on with your lives

I would genuinely like to myself. My real interests lie elsewhere. Science. Government. Children. Education. Human Rights. Sex. Art. Psychology. Medicine.

These are the things I have genuine interest in in my life. Yet in every single one of those realms the believers in god show up touting their religion in attempts to influence those realms of discourse and society. The issue many people have here with religion is not due to them failing to ignore it, but them failing to be LET ignore it.

Matias Cold Valor wrote: »

is it a case you all secretly believe in the possibility of His existence and keep trying very hard to quieten that little doubt in your heads as to His existence by your constant denials.

That is a canard that I have seen sold on a few occasions for sure. Theists of a certain ilk sometimes like to sell the idea that all atheists are believers deep down just practicing some level of denial at some level.

But I see little to warrant buying into that canard. I currently have no doubts for example. I have not once, in my entire life, been shown a single shred of argument, evidence, data or reasoning to lend even the most basic modicum of credence to the claim there is a god.... or as we have seen on this thread to substantiate most of the things people claim about Jesus.

So there is simply no grounds for me to be suffering any inner doubts on the issue at all. And I see no reason why people who identify as "atheist" would be any different. The canard appears to be little more than a "head in the sand" tactic by people who do not want to enter into genuine discourse.... but feel they need to say SOMETHING all the same.

The claims there is a god is not just a little, but entirely and completely unsubstantiated in any way. And people who do not like to admit that will indeed be tempted to resort to head in the sand tactics of pretending that even people who do not believe this crap.... secretly do believe that crap. As the old saying goes "Whatever helps you sleep at night".

robindch

Matias Cold Valor wrote: »

If He doesn't exist,why can't you just ignore Him [...]

As you ask - apart from having an organization with the childcare record of the RCC controlling the country's primary schools, what I find most objectionable is that every time certain family relatives show up, I receive long, raging spiels about male on male anal sex, abortion, the decadence and gross immorality of Educate Together schools, my generation and much else besides. Religion justifies and actively encourages this deranged behaviour.

I would dearly love never to hear another word for the rest of my life about people's religious beliefs and what these miserable memes compel vulnerable people to spend their declining years raving about.

La Fenetre

robindch wrote: »

I would dearly love never to hear another word for the rest of my life about people's religious beliefs and what these miserable memes compel vulnerable people to spend their declining years raving about.

Is that why you spend so much of your life discussing them on here ?

robindch

La Fenetre wrote: »

Is that why you spend so much of your life discussing them on here ?

If you took part in any of the discussions here in A+A, rather than - say - waving your fist wonkily at people, you'd see that this forum discusses far, far more than deadend religious views.

Pizza for a start. Proper pineapple-free pizza at that.

La Fenetre

robindch wrote: »

If you took part in any of the discussions here in A+A, rather than - say - waving your fist wonkily at people, you'd see that this forum discusses far, far more than deadend religious views.

Pizza for a start. Proper pineapple-free pizza at that.

I'm all relaxed reclining on the sofa you need to take a chill pill dude.
All that junk food's bad for you, try cutting down on it, you might be happier and your health might improve.

robindch

La Fenetre wrote: »

I'm all relaxed reclining on the sofa you need to take a chill pill dude.

And if your current inability to post anything worth reading doesn't miraculously volte-face, you'll be taking a holiday from the forum.

La Fenetre

robindch wrote: »

And if your current inability to post anything worth reading doesn't miraculously volte-face, you'll be taking a holiday from the forum.

Have you tried any relaxation techniques ?

robindch

La Fenetre wrote: »

robindch wrote: »

And if your current inability to post anything worth reading doesn't miraculously volte-face, you'll be taking a holiday from the forum.

Have you tried any relaxation techniques ?

La Fenetre is taking a holiday from the forum.

Hotblack Desiato

Matias Cold Valor wrote: »

What doesn't make sense to me is athiests fascination with a God who all keep insisting doesn't exist and is in the same realm as the Flying Spaghetti Monster who also doesn't exist.

If He doesn't exist,why can't you just ignore Him and get on with your lives or is it a case you all secretly believe in the possibility of His existence and keep trying very hard to quieten that little doubt in your heads as to His existence by your constant denials.

What really doesn't make sense to me is the apparent fascination of some theists with the discussions of non-believers.

As soon as any suggestion of even the slightest diminution of RC hegemony in this country is mooted, they're all over the thread like they got a bat-signal.

uck51js9zml2yt

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

What really doesn't make sense to me is the apparent fascination of some theists with the discussions of non-believers.

As soon as any suggestion of even the slightest diminution of RC hegemony in this country is mooted, they're all over the thread like they got a bat-signal.

I'm not RC and haven't been in over 30 years.

Hotblack Desiato

Everything is not all about you

realdanbreen

Saipanne wrote: »

I came up with this off the top of my head. Nonsense?


Jesus was free of sin.

Suicide is a sin.

Jesus is God.

God is omnipotent.

Jesus was crucified and died.

Jesus had the power to not die.

Jesus chose to die.

Jesus commuted suicide.

Jesus was not free of sin.


Probably nonsense. :-)

Out of 9 points that you make you manage to get 7 of them wrong so I guess you could be talking nonsenses!

realdanbreen

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

What really doesn't make sense to me is the apparent fascination of some theists with the discussions of non-believers.

As soon as any suggestion of even the slightest diminution of RC hegemony in this country is mooted, they're all over the thread like they got a bat-signal.

Equally what does'nt make sense to me is the obsession that atheists have with religion.

PopePalpatine

We'll leave religion alone when it leaves us alone. Unfortunately, religion fails to uphold its side of that bargain.

realdanbreen

PopePalpatine wrote: »

We'll leave religion alone when it leaves us alone. Unfortunately, religion fails to uphold its side of that bargain.

So if my kid gets half an hour or whatever of information on religion in school per week,that's it, all is lost, the kid is ruined forever!

Absolam

PopePalpatine wrote: »

We'll leave religion alone when it leaves us alone. Unfortunately, religion fails to uphold its side of that bargain.

I rather doubt religion ever agreed to that bargain, so you can't really blame it to be honest......

Shrap

Absolam wrote: »

I rather doubt religion ever agreed to that bargain, so you can't really blame it to be honest......

You'll also find that no atheist ever, signed an agreement to back off and play dead regarding religious interference in our society and our lives. You could think many religious people believe we should though, considering some of the "why don't you just let it go" whinges we encounter up here on a regular basis.

Shrap

realdanbreen wrote: »

So if my kid gets half an hour or whatever up to 8 hours in a communion/confirmation year of information on religion in school per week,that's it, all is lost, the kid is ruined forever significantly held back academically!

FYP :rolleyes:

Absolam

Shrap wrote: »

You'll also find that no atheist ever, signed an agreement to back off and play dead regarding religious interference in our society and our lives. You could think many religious people believe we should though, considering some of the "why don't you just let it go" whinges we encounter up here on a regular basis.

So there was no bargain by either party? PopePalpatine is such a spoofer.....

realdanbreen

Shrap wrote: »

You'll also find that no atheist ever, signed an agreement to back off and play dead regarding religious interference in our society and our lives. You could think many religious people believe we should though, considering some of the "why don't you just let it go" whinges we encounter up here on a regular basis.

Like I say 'see you in church'. After after all most'atheists' attend church services several times a year.

Shrap

Absolam wrote: »

So there was no bargain by either party? PopePalpatine is such a spoofer.....

Like I said, you'd think we had signed up to keep quiet on religion, the way some folks get their knickers knotted up by atheists :eek: discussing god, etc. - Which is what I took from PP's post.

Shrap

realdanbreen wrote: »

Like I say 'see you in church'. After after all most'atheists' attend church services several times a year.

I go to church as rarely as possible. Family weddings and funerals, community funerals if I couldn't make it to the house/removal. I don't join in the religious aspects of the ceremony; I do join in the celebration or the sympathy.

You speak as if we are persona non grata in a church. You are wrong. ONCE again, attending a church service is a very different beast to participating in it.

Absolam

Shrap wrote: »

Like I said, you'd think we had signed up to keep quiet on religion, the way some folks get their knickers knotted up by atheists :eek: discussing god, etc. - Which is what I took from PP's post.

Oh I wouldn't take it so, I assure you!
Neither what I'd think people signed up for, or PopePalpatines post, in the interests of full disclosure :pac:

Cabaal

Absolam wrote: »

I rather doubt religion ever agreed to that bargain, so you can't really blame it to be honest......

You're right,
Instead religious people see it as their right to interfere in everything and anything that affects people that don't believe in their fairytale,

Shrap

Absolam wrote: »

Oh I wouldn't take it so, I assure you!
Neither what I'd think people signed up for, or PopePalpatines post, in the interests of full disclosure :pac:

Hard to figure out if you're making any sense here, but carry on nit-picking. I'll be bored enough to re-ignore you before too long I'm sure.

Absolam

Cabaal wrote: »

You're right,
Instead religious people see it as their right to interfere in everything and anything that affects people that don't believe in their fairytale,

Well, I wouldn't say all religious people do. Just as not all non religious people see it as their right to interfere in everything and anything that affects people that do believe in something.

realdanbreen

Shrap wrote: »

I go to church as rarely as possible. Family weddings and funerals, community funerals if I couldn't make it to the house/removal. I don't join in the religious aspects of the ceremony; I do join in the celebration or the sympathy.

You speak as if we are persona non grata in a church. You are wrong. ONCE again, attending a church service is a very different beast to participating in it.

As I said previously the few genuine atheists that I know never enter a church. In their opinion to do so would be two faced and they are not so terrified of aunty Mary that they feel the need to people please. They attend the wedding reception and they pay their funeral respects outside the church.

Absolam

Shrap wrote: »

Hard to figure out if you're making any sense here, but carry on nit-picking. I'll be bored enough to re-ignore you before too long I'm sure.

Not nit picking in the least! I was simply saying that I personally would not take it that atheists had signed up to keep quiet on religion, but that I wouldn't take it that that was what PopePalpatine was saying either.

Kev W

realdanbreen wrote: »

As I said previously the few genuine atheists that I know never enter a church. In their opinion to do so would be two faced and they are not so terrified of aunty Mary that they feel the need to people please. They attend the wedding reception and they pay their funeral respects outside the church.

And as has been said previously, you're describing Anti-theism, not Atheism.

Shrap

realdanbreen wrote: »

As I said previously the few genuine atheists that I know never enter a church. In their opinion to do so would be two faced and they are not so terrified of aunty Mary that they feel the need to people please. They attend the wedding reception and they pay their funeral respects outside the church.

*Shall not say what I want to say. Ignores instead*

realdanbreen

Shrap wrote: »

FYP :rolleyes:

I don't understand. You are an atheist, your kid is n atheist, and yet the kid is getting confirmed in the church?

Kev W

realdanbreen wrote: »

I don't understand. You are an atheist, your kid is n atheist, and yet the kid is getting confirmed in the church?

Eh, that was a post about YOUR kid, Dan. You should know, you wrote it!

Saipanne

Kev W wrote: »

Eh, that was a post about YOUR kid, Dan. You should know, you wrote it!

Hehehe, oh dear.

realdanbreen

Kev W wrote: »

Eh, that was a post about YOUR kid, Dan. You should know, you wrote it!

I :Dthink you need to thumb back a few pages Kev!

Kev W

realdanbreen wrote: »

I :Dthink you need to thumb back a few pages Kev!

No Dan, you do.

nozzferrahhtoo

realdanbreen wrote: »

As I said previously the few genuine atheists that I know never enter a church. In their opinion to do so would be two faced

You should invite them on here then as diverse voices are always welcome here and I can not think of very many atheists on here who share the opinion you describe. So it would be stimulating to get some atheists who do.

The majority of atheists I know of, online, as part of Atheist Ireland of whom I am a founding member, all the conferences I go to and so forth do not actually have a problem with religion, attending religious services, or going into your religious club houses.

Their issue only comes to the fore when religion LEAVES those club houses and attempts to exert influence in our halls of power, education, science and medicine for example. Or when the religious user their power in their club houses to commit and/or facilitate crimes. Or the religious use their religion publicly to try and attain special privilege or exemptions others do not get. And so forth. But religion _itself_ while being pointless unsubstantiated nonsense in my eyes.... I do not actually have any issue with.

An analogy I like to think of is that I personally hate Golf. I do not like playing it, I certainly do not like watching it, and you would not catch me dead in public in the kinds of trousers some of those people wear in their club houses and play areas. But I have no PROBLEM with golf. At all. I would happily accompany friends to their Club House, wear the trousers THERE if it were expected of me, and even hold their clubs for them or hand them a ball or two.

However if they came out of their club houses admonishing us all to wear the same trousers as them, demanding golf be put on the curriculum, that we make social, political or economic decisions only after considering the Golf Rule book, that certain areas of science should be curtailed because of some impact on golf.... and so forth.... I would have an issue with them then. But ONLY in that sphere. I still would have no issue with golf itself, attending the club houses, or handing them a ball.

It is the same with religion. I have no issue going into the Catholic Club house where my good friends are engaging in their hobby there. I will sit with them, enjoy their company, and engage in the absolute minimum of the motions to ensure I do not cause a disturbance and I can watch the "show" (Which usually means I stand and sit when they do, but I have never seen reason to kneel or follow them to their queues). I have nothing against their hobby, or their club house.

While in public when they spill out of the club houses espousing religious based views in our public halls of power, education, science and medicine I will resist them and fight them.

And I see nothing two faced about it. The fight against religion is not an all or nothing affair. So by all means invite these atheists you allegedly know to the forum as I am happy to hear their reasoning for it as compared to my own.

Cabaal

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

You should invite them on here then as diverse voices are always welcome here and I can not think of very many atheists on here who share the opinion you describe. So it would be stimulating to get some atheists who do.

I'd imagine these atheists are about as real as god is,
:rolleyes:

nozzferrahhtoo

Perchance. These theist types do seem to have a knack for having "Personal Relationships" with seemingly non-existent entities. Then again so does my 5 year old daughter, but she appears to be growing out of it already.

realdanbreen

Kev W wrote: »

No Dan, you do.

Kev, there are some days when I don't mind going through an 'If I had three apples and you had two apples' exercise but today is not one of those days.

nozzferrahhtoo

That is one of my daugthers party pieces. I tell people she can work with any numbers I throw at her. So then I ask her something like "If you had 234 apples in one hand.... and 127 apples in the other hand.... what would you have".

She theatrically thinks about it for a minute before proclaiming "BIG HANDS!"

Gets them every times.

realdanbreen

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

You should invite them on here then as diverse voices are always welcome here and I can not think of very many atheists on here who share the opinion you describe. So it would be stimulating to get some atheists who do.

The majority of atheists I know of, online, as part of Atheist Ireland of whom I am a founding member, all the conferences I go to and so forth do not actually have a problem with religion, attending religious services, or going into your religious club houses.

Their issue only comes to the fore when religion LEAVES those club houses and attempts to exert influence in our halls of power, education, science and medicine for example. Or when the religious user their power in their club houses to commit and/or facilitate crimes. Or the religious use their religion publicly to try and attain special privilege or exemptions others do not get. And so forth. But religion _itself_ while being pointless unsubstantiated nonsense in my eyes.... I do not actually have any issue with.

An analogy I like to think of is that I personally hate Golf. I do not like playing it, I certainly do not like watching it, and you would not catch me dead in public in the kinds of trousers some of those people wear in their club houses and play areas. But I have no PROBLEM with golf. At all. I would happily accompany friends to their Club House, wear the trousers THERE if it were expected of me, and even hold their clubs for them or hand them a ball or two.

However if they came out of their club houses admonishing us all to wear the same trousers as them, demanding golf be put on the curriculum, that we make social, political or economic decisions only after considering the Golf Rule book, that certain areas of science should be curtailed because of some impact on golf.... and so forth.... I would have an issue with them then. But ONLY in that sphere. I still would have no issue with golf itself, attending the club houses, or handing them a ball.

It is the same with religion. I have no issue going into the Catholic Club house where my good friends are engaging in their hobby there. I will sit with them, enjoy their company, and engage in the absolute minimum of the motions to ensure I do not cause a disturbance and I can watch the "show" (Which usually means I stand and sit when they do, but I have never seen reason to kneel or follow them to their queues). I have nothing against their hobby, or their club house.

While in public when they spill out of the club houses espousing religious based views in our public halls of power, education, science and medicine I will resist them and fight them.

And I see nothing two faced about it. The fight against religion is not an all or nothing affair. So by all means invite these atheists you allegedly know to the forum as I am happy to hear their reasoning for it as compared to my own.

Out of curiousity nozz, how many menbers are in this organisation that you helped found?

Kev W

realdanbreen wrote: »

Kev, there are some days when I don't mind going through an 'If I had three apples and you had two apples' exercise but today is not one of those days.

The fact is you claimed a post about your child was about someone else's. If you don't feel like owning up to the mistake that's on you. But don't talk down to me for pointing it out.

Saipanne

C'mon Dan, own up to your error. Thou shalt not bear false...?

Kev W

Saipanne wrote: »

C'mon Dan, own up to your error. Thou shalt not bear false...?

... moustache?

nozzferrahhtoo

realdanbreen wrote: »

Out of curiousity nozz, how many menbers are in this organisation that you helped found?

Atheist Ireland? Not sure any more. Although still a member I am now no longer supporting any role where I have access to that information (I used to be the membership officer AND The webmaster so I could have told you then). Its three figures anyway unless some major changes have happened. And we are a part of the Atheist Alliance International Group which has many many more. The conferences I helped organize and run in Ireland and Germany were both very well attended.

Bumski

realdanbreen wrote: »

So if my kid gets half an hour or whatever of information on religion in school per week,that's it, all is lost, the kid is ruined forever!

Would you object if your kid had a half an hour of information/formation on Islam instead of Christianity? (Or instead of whatever number of hours per day/week they currently receive on Christianity/RC)