Permission question

SmartinMartin

Hi all, does anyone know if you own land do you still have to get written permission to shoot on two other sets of land for a shotgun license? I was of the opinion that your own land would suffice but a friend disagreed. Thanks.

deerhunter1

SmartinMartin wrote: »

Hi all, does anyone know if you own land do you still have to get written permission to shoot on two other sets of land for a shotgun license? I was of the opinion that your own land would suffice but a friend disagreed. Thanks.

If you have your own land,enough acreage your good to go

Tikka391

Game hunting and vermin control on your land you will be fine for licence.
I'd say it would want to be more than a
"Big acre" now.

SmartinMartin

deerhunter1 wrote: »

If you have your own land,enough acreage your good to go

That's what I was hoping to hear, thank you. I presume I would have to prove ownership in some way. Would a copy of the folio do?

SmartinMartin

Tikka391 wrote: »

I'd say it would want to be more than a
"Big acre" now.

I'm ok on that score, its a big back garden lol

SmartinMartin

deerhunter1 wrote: »

If you have your own land,enough acreage your good to go

Would you happen to know where I could see that in writing? I've done a bit of searching but I'm not sure where to look.

cookimonster

Check the section of your Fire Arms application form in relation to land permissions, it covers the procedure in relation to owner / agent etc - the relevant addresses - the actual property and that of the owner, local Garda Station.
If this is a first time application using this permission then this will be checked out by the Garda.

I'm open to correction here but acerage is not the guiding principle, suitablity is key and can be tied into the particular firearm applied for. Example: a permission that is close to or bordering a built up area may not receive a go ahead for a full bore rifle based on safety or the lack of a suitable quarry, whereas a shotgun license may be issued as the range is greatly shorter and the presence of suitable quarry.

In the commissioners guidelines there is a section on what is deemed as acceptable firearms and calibres for various shooting activities.

Luckysasha

I didn't have to prove ownership of land on my application. I just ticked the "other" box on reason for firearm section then attached a hand written note with the form explaining the rifle was for pest control on my land. The guard I was dealing with knew the location of my farm and all he asked was how many acres there was.

Cass

SmartinMartin wrote: »

Hi all, does anyone know if you own land do you still have to get written permission to shoot on two other sets of land for a shotgun license? I was of the opinion that your own land would suffice but a friend disagreed. Thanks.

You may apply for a shotgun license ONLY, under the form of a limited certificate on your own land by using section 5.2. Section 5.2 is for limited certificates ONLY, and not to be used for any other type of firearm application and definitely not for anything other than a shotgun.

If you want a full license you must tick "Hunting" in section 4.2 (Reason for Firearm) and supply permissions from others or proof of ownership of your own land.

SmartinMartin wrote: »

That's what I was hoping to hear, thank you. I presume I would have to prove ownership in some way. Would a copy of the folio do?

As above if using section 5.2 no need afaik for folio. For a full license using section 4.2 it may or may not be needed. The difference is with a limited certificate you may only shoot on the lands you have named/nominated on the FCA1. With a full license you may shoot on all lands you have permission on.

Your Super may or may not demand it and your FO can clarify this for you as it changes from district to distrcit so what goes in one area may not hold true for another.

cookimonster wrote: »

Check the section of your Fire Arms application form in relation to land permissions, it covers the procedure in relation to owner / agent etc - the relevant addresses - the actual property and that of the owner, local Garda Station.

That is section 5.2 and ONLY for limited certificates on shotguns.

I'm open to correction here but acerage is not the guiding principle, suitablity is key and can be tied into the particular firearm applied for. Example: a permission that is close to or bordering a built up area may not receive a go ahead for a full bore rifle based on safety or the lack of a suitable quarry, whereas a shotgun license may be issued as the range is greatly shorter and the presence of suitable quarry..

Unlike the UK the lands here are not, usually, checked for suitability. The Gardaí use the acreage to determine if you have enough land to be away from any built up area. So if you land around The Square in Tallaght chances are you won't get a license for a full bore. If you have 1,000 acres in the arse end of nowhere you will.


So in short, for the OP:
Section 5.2 for limited certificate for a shotgun ONLY
Section 4.2 for a full license with permissions from land owners/yourself.

SmartinMartin

Thank you everyone, some very good information there.

cookimonster

Posted by Cass:
That is section 5.2 and ONLY for limited certificates on shotguns.

Really, this is news to me, I've owned firearms since the mid '80s and have always filled in 'the' section (both the old systems and new) in relation to the permissions land details and supplied the relevant written permissions. I assumed that the secound box on the opening instructions of section 5.2 was to be ticked for the application for a limited license.

All of my permissions have been private up until recently and in fact it is only since I joined a gun club have I had problems with renewals in relation to proof of land to shoot on. I had to get the club Secretary to furnish me with a letter of membership.

I may a bit out dated but in the early '90s my friends application was refused based on the fact that the farmer providing the land permissions for his application admitted to the guards that he had no personal knowledge of the lad and he was doing a relation a favour.
That was sorted by my father after he got one of his landowners to vouch for my mate as he accompanied us regularly when we went out. But that was back in the day.......

Cass

cookimonster wrote: »

Posted by Cass:
That is section 5.2 and ONLY for limited certificates on shotguns.

Really, this is news to me,

Says so right there on the form,




............... and on the Garda Website (bottom of pages).

Garda Website wrote:

Section 5.2 applies only to circumstances where an applicant is applying for a Limited Certificate, which is still provided for under the Wildlife Acts

. I assumed that the secound box on the opening instructions of section 5.2 was to be ticked for the application for a limited license

ALL of section 5.2 is for a limited certificate. The "second box" is for the land owner, and the "first box" for someone that is nominated by the land owner.

I may a bit out dated but in the early '90s my friends application was refused based on the fact that the farmer providing the land permissions for his application admitted to the guards that he had no personal knowledge of the lad and he was doing a relation a favour.

That has nothing really to do with the issue of which section to fill. Excuse me if that sounds short, it's not meant to be. That is someone giving a false or fraudulent permission. No wonder it was refused. The landowners don't realise their permissions are in effect allowing someone to get a firearm. So the Gardaí, to an extent, rely on the landowner to give a character reference in the form of written permission.

cookimonster

Ref Cass reply to myself:

Your post in principle proves two things-

1. You are a mine of information, as usual.

2. My local Garda Station ( who processes all the district applications ) have been processing my applications and others that I know of, which where incorrectly filled in, since the incarnation of the new licensing system.

Thanks for the Garda link as this answered my next question - where does the form deal with land permissions etc.

As for the antidotal story it was there to highlight the fact that Garda had on occasion checked on the validity of land permissions.

Cass

cookimonster wrote: »

1. You are a mine of information, as usual.

Had to learn it kid like we all did. I jumped through all these hoops and had to deal with the ignorance of certain parties that are meant to know this and did not. Some still don't. Long story for another day and thread.

2. My local Garda Station ( who processes all the district applications ) have been processing my applications and others that I know of, which where incorrectly filled in, since the incarnation of the new licensing system.

This goes back to my reference above about ignorance. I have seen some truly, and i mean truly, maddening and unbelievable stuff over the years. However the "big ones" are rare enough, it's the small things that happen numerous times each day that get on my wick. Things like:
One station subbing a shotgun for a rifle and another not doing it

• Allowing renewals/re-applications to be done on an FCA1 in one district and not another
• Banning suppressors in some districts
• Not knowing what the different calibers are (scary story i'll tell you sometime about a member of AGS asking a friend of mine what caliber his "rifle" was as the army didn't have guns that big. It was a shotgun)
• And the last, but by no means the least the ignorance. They are wrong, but will push their agenda or side simply because they hold the "power".

As for the antidotal story it was there to highlight the fact that Garda had on occasion checked on the validity of land permissions.

As said i was not being ignorant towards you, just did not see the relevance, in case one was implied, to the thread.

RossiFan08

Hey Cass,

Thanks for the helpful info. I am applying for my second license for a 223 rem (already holding one for a 22lr) and I am wondering how many land owners I should get permission from. Last time I applied I filled out section 5.2 not realising I didn't need to and got a letter from one owner.

Will I need more permission for the larger caliber or is one enough? Baring in mid the super in my area isn't exactly gun friendly (refused a suppressor as people need to know shots are being fired)

Cheers

Eoin

Cass

RossiFan08 wrote: »

I am wondering how many land owners I should get permission from.

I'd get a second one or even a third, fourth if you can. The more you have the better your chances are.

Will I need more permission for the larger caliber or is one enough?

As above the "standard" is two permissions. Caliber size has little to do with your application is relation to land permissions. Unlike the UK system (IIRC) the size of the caliber of firearm is not dependent on the suitability of the land you intend to shoot. It's more a case of if you have plenty of shooting permissions, or land, then the risk of you shooting near a populated area or unsuitable area is reduced/lower. They sound the same, but in the UK (again IIRC) they actually check the land. They don't do that here.

Baring in mid the super in my area isn't exactly gun friendly (refused a suppressor as people need to know shots are being fired)

Tell him/her to stop watching films. The term silencer pisses me off as there is no such thing as a silencer. You could have the best suppressor in the world that can reduce the heard report by a factor ten times that of an ordinary one, but as long as you#re firing supersonic ammo there will always be a sonic crack.

A "silencer" only works in conjunction with the appropriate ammo. So until they invent something that can silence any ammo i'll continue to call it a suppressor as it's suppresses or reduces the heard report, not silence it.

/rant over, back to your quesiton.

You are entitled to apply for the suppressor. Among your list of reasons you may include:

1. To aid sound reduction of the firearm when used around livestock and bloodstock.
2. To aid sound reduction so as to not alarm people in the vicinity.
3. Safeguard against the unsafe practice of wearing hearing protection while stalking / hunting that would prevent you from hearing anything/anyone approaching.
4. Protection of personal hearing
5. Improved accuracy therefore aiding with the humane dispatch of prey. .
6. Reduced recoil giving the ability for a quick follow up shot if necessary.
7. Ideal for vermin control as it allows for numerous shots without startling or scaring off other vermin.

RossiFan08

Thanks for the great reply,

I will indeed get more permission so, won't be a problem as its in the middle of no where and know plenty of people around who are more than happy to let me shoot.

Don't get me started on this clown. Not only did I include a letter with all of the above reasons you included, I also had a face to face sit down with him to try and make my point clear but he was having none of it. I also know other lads, with large calibres (.308) who have also have issues with the man. Even the gun shop knew the super before even knowing what district I was in from the fact he had issues with suppressors.

Is a joke when the people in charger have no little to no knowledge on the matter and many times give incorrect info and on top of that a stranger on the internet will be more useful. When I explain it to people who do not shoot, I compare it to someone who uses internet explorer with dozens of toolbars also being the same person who makes laws regarding computers and technology.

We don't need laws like the US but we at least need something like the UK. At a minimum let us reload.

Cass

RossiFan08 wrote: »

Even the gun shop knew the super before even knowing what district I was in from the fact he had issues with suppressors.

Blanket bans are illegal so if you and a few others can prove a pattern i'd get together the necessary info and contact your local NGB. They can bring it to the attention of the Super even via the FCP.

Is a joke when the people in charge have no little to no knowledge on the matter and many times give incorrect info and on top of that a stranger on the internet will be more useful.

I don't expect them to know everything. How could they? They have so much more to deal with them firearms, but i do expect a certain level of professionalism and to use the tools at their disposal such as the FPU, FO, local NGBs, and FCP to help out.

We don't need laws like the US but we at least need something like the UK. At a minimum let us reload.

Careful what you wish for. I wouldn't swap for the US system EVER and not even the UK one. Think of it like this. Here is what you'd gain from each:

USA system

• Larger selection of firearms that can be licensed/applied for.
• Reloading

UK system

• No license for air rifle under 12ft/lb
• One license per person for multiple firearms
• Reloading for all

Now look at what you'd loose:

Compared to USA system

• Federal license needed for suppressor
• Suppressors harder to get and way more expensive
• Magazine limits much like our own in more and more states including on rimfire guns
• A free for all on getting long arms (rifle and shotgun) in a lot of states
• People that shouldn't have guns getting them
• No background checks on certain guns in certain states

Compared to UK system

• Land checks before getting licenses on certain calibers
• NO pistols at all
• NO semi autos (Centrefire) at all

Our system is a bastardised version of the British, Canadian, etc systems. While we loose out on some things, we have more than others. So as i said above i wouldn't swap for another system, completely.

BattleCorp

Cass wrote: »

I don't expect them to know everything. How could they? They have so much more to deal with them firearms, but i do expect a certain level of professionalism and to use the tools at their disposal such as the FPU, FO, local NGBs, and FCP to help out.

Sorry for going off on a tangent but I can't understand why the authorities don't get the Gardai to spend 1 week extra training in Templemore so that they at least have a little bit of knowledge of how to handle firearms questions/requests.

I'm not blaming the individual Gardai, they don't get to pick and choose what training they receive. I'm blaming whoever sets the training course that they go on.

I find it hard to believe that Gardai can come out of Templemore with very little knowlege of firearms legislation/regulations considering it's an area that they have legal responsibility for.

Cass

I can only guess at the reasons but considering that firearms are not a "big thing" in this country and the fact that the position of Firearms Officer is a made up one (that no one really wants to do) i can see why the lack of knowledge exists.

They could change it by having those appointed as "FOs" to do a basic course before taking that post to familiarise themselves with the details, but i'll not hold my breath. I mean we have to learn the laws for applying and staying legal. Is it so much to ask that those on the other side of the counter must educate themselves a little too?