Personal Day - Before Holidays

RobM569

Hey everyone!
So 1 week down after Halloween!!

I'm just wondering, I'm looking for a personal day in my school but am a bit afraid to ask management!

I'm looking for the day the schools finish up for Easter (16th March)! Is it a bit cheeky asking for that day since I am already getting 2 weeks off after that day? I would be arranging cover from colleagues myself (favours not getting S&S)!

I'm looking for the day as I have to go abroad for the break and flights are alot cheaper to fly out on the morning of the 16th!

km79

RobM569 wrote: »

Hey everyone!
So 1 week down after Halloween!!

I'm just wondering, I'm looking for a personal day in my school but am a bit afraid to ask management!

I'm looking for the day the schools finish up for Easter (16th March)! Is it a bit cheeky asking for that day since I am already getting 2 weeks off after that day?

I'm looking for the day as I have to go abroad for the break and flights are alot cheaper to fly out on the morning of the 16th!

we have more than 2 weeks after that day.........if I was the principal and you have that reason I would not be impressed .......its up to you but if it was me I would not and I'm in our school over a decade!

Inspector Coptoor

You have 18 days off going into that Easter break due to the way it falls this school year.

If you're looking for a personal day just to go on holidays, if it were me, as HM, I'd be pretty annoyed at your rationale

mirrorwall14

Honestly I do not know anyone who has asked for a personal day for a flight. Tbh I've only heard of a personal day in the case of a siblings wedding during term time. We have generous holidays and primary school have course days. I miss the flexibility (secondary) but obviously we have a long summer and hols

RobM569

Thanks everyone!
Ye confirmed my thoughts not to ask!

However it does annoy me a little that even though the personal days exist there is so many rules on when to take them! But hey that's the aim of the game! ðŸ‘ðŸ¼

fall

We don't have personal days ( etb) so we organise our own cover by asking favours from colleagues. Once we have our own cover organised management don't really ask us what it's for. Also I worked under a principal who took two weeks off to go to Australia for his son's wedding. He never missed a day otherwise. I think a personal day should be just that, personal.

Moody_mona

fall wrote: »

We don't have personal days ( etb) so we organise our own cover by asking favours from colleagues. Once we have our own cover organised management don't really ask us what it's for. Also I worked under a principal who took two weeks off to go to Australia for his son's wedding. He never missed a day otherwise. I think a personal day should be just that, personal.

That's how personal days work on general I thought. I've never heard of personal leave bring covered by s&s. You shouldn't have to explain your reasoning for the day though.

evolving_doors

Moody_mona wrote: »

That's how personal days work on general I thought. I've never heard of personal leave bring covered by s&s. You shouldn't have to explain your reasoning for the day though.

True, you shouldn't have to.
It's never asked, but if we wanted a personal day the day before a MTB or after I think it is polite to offer a reason. Maybe not so much for the Principal granting the day, but moreso for the colleagues who are going to be covering.

'Going on holidays early cos of cheap flights'.... no I definitely would not be telling them that, in fact I'd be wearing a disguise all the way on to the plane just in case I was spotted. We do enough giving out about parents/students doing it so pot/kettle/black etc.

katydid

Moody_mona wrote: »

That's how personal days work on general I thought. I've never heard of personal leave bring covered by s&s. You shouldn't have to explain your reasoning for the day though.

I presume when he said arranging cover with colleagues, he didn't mean S&S but calling in personal favours.

Moody_mona

Gebgbegb wrote: »

True, you shouldn't have to.
It's never asked, but if we wanted a personal day the day before a MTB or after I think it is polite to offer a reason. Maybe not so much for the Principal granting the day, but moreso for the colleagues who are going to be covering.

Yes that's what I meant, completely agree, I'd always explain to colleagues.

Katydid I'm on mobile so can't multi quote I know arranging cover with colleagues wouldn't fall under s&s. The poster said they didn't have personal days but they can arrange cover with colleagues. I'm in a voluntary secondary school, so we have official personal days, but we still have to get them covered by favours from colleagues (no issue with this).

fall

They aren't called anything in our school because they really are just favours. It wouldn't make any difference to me what is was for because the people that would ask me would generally be friends. I can also completely understand someone wanting to go a day earlier if it meant the difference between them being able to afford to go or not. An hour out of my time that would mean someone else could do something nice would be no big deal to me and that's the vibe in our staff room. People also don't abuse it.

acequion

My advice and I'll be lynched for it, is to take your day,go on holidays and get your day covered by a doctor's cert. That way, all your classes get covered by the same sub, who get's a day's work and experience and you get to properly organise with this sub what your want done in your classes. To me, that is far more efficient than going around begging for favours and it isn't as if you can further hog the favour with a list of instructions about what you want done in the class in question.

I also think you are perfectly entitled to try to get a cheaper flight. Teachers are poorly paid and granted we do have generous holidays,but zero flexibility.

I posted about a similar issue some weeks back and got such a hostile reaction that I haven't posted since. Everyone is fully entitled to their opinion but I have no time for the holier than thou attitude. Sometimes you have to bend the rules and if you're one of the majority hard working,dedicated teachers, I wouldn't beat myself up over one day.

Also,not all schools are so amenable to covering the personal days. Teachers are run off their feet nowadays and really value their free slots. Personally, I would be extremely slow to ask anyone to cover for me,however that said,I would never refuse anyone either as I just might need the favour returned some time. But it's usually not done in our place.

Hope you get something sorted. Good luck!

OP, I don't agree with acequion's advice above.

I don't think you should be deceitful to your colleagues and principal. I don't think you should try to defraud money out of your employer and the taxpayer. I also don't think you should lie to a medical professional, or try to involve a medical professional in dishonest behaviour. It's dishonourable and unprofessional - though I reckon you know that without needing to read it on a message board.

Others may disagree of course, but that's a matter for them.

fall

I also think if caught it's grounds for dismissal.

solerina

It depends on the school, personal days are personal, it is your choice how you decide to use them. We have had personal days for all kinds of reasons, including flights and as long as your colleagues cover for you there is no problem. Then again usually no one takes more than 2 personal days in an academic year do the system isn't being abused by anyone in my school.

mtoutlemonde

acequion wrote: »

My advice and I'll be lynched for it, is to take your day,go on holidays and get your day covered by a doctor's cert. That way, all your classes get covered by the same sub, who get's a day's work and experience and you get to properly organise with this sub what your want done in your classes. To me, that is far more efficient than going around begging for favours and it isn't as if you can further hog the favour with a list of instructions about what you want done in the class in question.

I also think you are perfectly entitled to try to get a cheaper flight. Teachers are poorly paid and granted we do have generous holidays,but zero flexibility.

I posted about a similar issue some weeks back and got such a hostile reaction that I haven't posted since. Everyone is fully entitled to their opinion but I have no time for the holier than thou attitude. Sometimes you have to bend the rules and if you're one of the majority hard working,dedicated teachers, I wouldn't beat myself up over one day.

Also,not all schools are so amenable to covering the personal days. Teachers are run off their feet nowadays and really value their free slots. Personally, I would be extremely slow to ask anyone to cover for me,however that said,I would never refuse anyone either as I just might need the favour returned some time. But it's usually not done in our place.

Hope you get something sorted. Good luck!

Wouldn't the OP be marked absent for the duration of the mid-term then? That leave is precious with changes to sick leave and who knows when the OP might need them.

deiseindublin

No, would only be marked absent for the duration of midterm if they didn't present for work on the first day back to school. You never know when you would be genuienly ill though so I'd be slow to take the Friday before any holiday.

Friend of mine took the Fri of the summer holidays one year for a wedding and then had a small accident at the end of August which meant she missed the first day back at start of term. She had to follow a long line of paperwork to stop her summer pay being taken from her.

acequion

Some utterly ridiculous remarks above re getting a cert for a day off,totally over the top such as "grounds for dismissal if caught","defrauding the employer", "dishonourable and unprofessional", "deceitful to principal"! For heaven's sake guys,climb down off the high moral pedestals!!

Firstly, claiming illness to take a day or days off has been and always will be used by employees everywhere. I'm not saying it's right,I'm just stating a fact.In teaching, if it's covered by a cert a teacher's classes get properly looked after. That is another fact. If not covered by a cert classes are merely supervised at best. That is also a fact. Personally,I prefer to ensure that my classes are taught and that work is being done. In other jobs employees have more flexibility when needing time off, in teaching there is none.

Secondly I would not be losing sleep over "defrauding the employer." The employer has treated teachers with nothing but contempt these past years and despite that is still getting excellent value for money.

Thirdly and relatedly, it is disgraceful that the employer has forced teachers into unpaid S&S and that this unpaid labour cannot be used to cover the personal day. Also,I feel that teachers should not have to give a reason for taking this day but they do and I know of one teacher who had the same request as the OP and who was refused. In any case the dedicated teacher rarely takes a day off, not because he's a goody two shoes but because he enjoys his work and is responsible about covering the curriculum. So the rare personal day should not be such a hassle.I would be for giving less of those days,but making them more amenable.

Fourthly, the principal will not care how the teacher is out as long as there is no disruption.The collegues will not give not give a flying fcuk because it doesn't concern them and is none of their business and the parents [the taxpayers,along with tax paying teacher] will not be put out because the teacher is replaced by a proper substitute and their kids are being taught, not sitting doing nothing in free classes.

Teachers getting medically certified time off happens and it happens efficiently,regardless of the moral preaching some posters like to indulge in. Don't forget also,that the teacher is knowingly using up scarce sick days when they do that,so I don't see it being abused in the future.

Now ok maybe getting a sick cert to fly off on holidays is a bit dodgy and maybe not a good idea for the OP especially if not yet established in the job.But let's not deny that it happens and let's cut out the moral outrage as if it were some dreadful crime.

seavill

I agree with you to a certain extent, but I think the argument "sure everyone else does it" doesn't really hold much water with me personally. Plenty people rob banks, speed, etc. etc. that doesn't mean everyone should go around doing it. I know the examples are an exaggeration but they are just as silly as the "sure everyone else does it".

I personally don't agree with getting a cert, it's not being on the "moral high ground" I just think its wrong, and I am entitled to that opinion as much as you are to yours.
I would not personally try to take an extra day to extend school holidays particularly with 18 days off already but others would so that is just personal opinion really.

OP you obviously are unsure about the rights of doing it or not or you wouldn't be asking the question.

I would apply for my personal day, and be honest if asked. I wouldn't go around signing about why I wanted it but if asked I would tell. In reality someone is going to see a photo, or see you or whatever so why bother lying.

fall

So after a big rant you acknowledge in your last paragraph that it is not a good idea to go on holiday on sick leave. Bit contradictory don't you think.
There was no moral outrage or judgement from me, in fact I said that a personal day should be just that, personal. I stand by the fact however that someone caught on holidays under the guise of being on sick leave is open to disciplinary action. That is not a judgement , that is a fact. Your opinion and your judgement of everyone else's opinion does not change that. All the other things you mention are irrelevant to the Ops question. Oh and an already very anti teacher public would very much care and would delight in publicly flogging a teacher who did this.

acequion

fall wrote: »

So after a big rant you acknowledge in your last paragraph that it is not a good idea to go on holiday on sick leave. Bit contradictory don't you think.
There was no moral outrage or judgement from me, in fact I said that a personal day should be just that, personal. I stand by the fact however that someone caught on holidays under the guise of being on sick leave is open to disciplinary action. That is not a judgement , that is a fact. Your opinion and your judgement of everyone else's opinion does not change that. All the other things you mention are irrelevant to the Ops question. Oh and an already very anti teacher public would very much care and would delight in publicly flogging a teacher who did this.

A pity that you care to dismiss the many valid points I make as a "rant" and as I have posted on numerous occasions, I am not the least concerned about the "anti teacher" public. Do you not think that even the words "anti teacher"are somewhat ridiculous? Because they are. Have we an "anti doctor" public or "anti nurse" or "anti Gardai" public,of any consequence? No because it's a nonsense. Therefore the "anti teacher"brigade are Sindo reading ignoramuses whose opinion don't count.And it's a bit pathetic to find teachers pandering to their prejudice. Yes I do care about the public because I am a public servant. But in my "rant" I explained how a teacher, absent with a medical cert, enables more efficient substitution of the duties.An anomaly perhaps,but nonetheless,true. I also said that a more amenable personal day system might solve the problem.

And no there is nothing hypocritical about my last paragraph. Yes I acknowledge in hindsight that advising the OP to get a cert is probably not a good idea. The OP seems concerned about it, so is better off going through official channels.So I was wrong in giving that specific advice. As for whether I think going on holidays on a cert is a good idea in general,personally,I have never done it, but if others have,I'm certainly not going to judge them. I am simply acknowledging that this does happen,that it happens efficiently and that in the grand scheme of things,it's hardly a crime. Maybe theoretically such an action is indeed open to disciplinary action but I've never heard of it happening,have you?

And as for your point about relevance. The OP posted about getting the day off. Everything in my post pertains to such. Surely all topics can be broadened raising important questions? Such as the inflexibility of our personal day system despite our good holidays.

fall

Calling other people's posts " utterly ridiculous " and using statements like " for heaven sake" and "climb down off the moral high pedestals" when the previous posts weren't emotive but answered the ops question does appear as a rant.
I also feel your discussion about s and s, unpaid or otherwise has nothing to do with the ops question, so yes irrelevant material. I have encountered many people who are profoundly envious of our holidays, security and pensions ( old scale of course). Again that is my experience that there are many people negative towards our profession.
Finally, you acknowledge that your advice was flawed so therefore as a response to the ops question it was not a helpful opinion, what was the point of the post in that case. You also say also say using a cert fraudulently is not a crime, really?

Spread the love

I never had an issue taking days off here and there if I really really needed to. One day out of the whole year will not do anyone any harm but better to have it certified than not. There are plenty of subs out there calling out for work, I wouldn't feel one bit guilty.

acequion

fall wrote: »

Calling other people's posts " utterly ridiculous " and using statements like " for heaven sake" and "climb down off the moral high pedestals" when the previous posts weren't emotive but answered the ops question does appear as a rant.
I also feel your discussion about s and s, unpaid or otherwise has nothing to do with the ops question, so yes irrelevant material. I have encountered many people who are profoundly envious of our holidays, security and pensions ( old scale of course). Again that is my experience that there are many people negative towards our profession.
Finally, you acknowledge that your advice was flawed so therefore as a response to the ops question it was not a helpful opinion, what was the point of the post in that case. You also say also say using a cert fraudulently is not a crime, really?

The emboldened bit is an example of the high moral ground,over the top attitudes that I find tiresome. If "using a cert fraudulently" is a crime then there are loads of "criminals" walking around. But I don't happen to share this tunnel visioned view of life. I don't see life as so black and white.

If people are "profoundly envious" of us then they need to get over themselves and it's their problem,not ours. I could also be envious of people I perceive to have it better than me. But that would be my problem.

I also feel that considering a discussion on S&S irrelevant to the OP's problem is also tunnel visioned. All threads branch out,and in my opinion,are more interesting as a result.

Yes I wanted to acknowledge that my previous advice to the OP was not sound advice. So? Is it not a good thing to be able to acknowledge when wrong? But I still stand over all my other points. The point of my post was to point that out to the OP but also to rebut the, in my opinion,judgemental and over the top attacks on my point of view.

You and I quite obviously don't see eye to eye on this which is fine. So,can we please agree to disagree and leave it there?

fall

We can absolutely agree to disagree.
To the op I am aware of someone who got caught out pretending to be sick when they weren't.. I was part of our union team at the time and it was a horrendously stressful situation for them. So I personally would not relax if I thought this could happen and it would dampen my holiday mood. At least a personal day means you don't have this worry. Just my opinion and personal experience.

fall

fall wrote: »

So after a big rant you acknowledge in your last paragraph that it is not a good idea to go on holiday on sick leave. Bit contradictory don't you think.
There was no moral outrage or judgement from me, in fact I said that a personal day should be just that, personal. I stand by the fact however that someone caught on holidays under the guise of being on sick leave is open to disciplinary action. That is not a judgement , that is a fact. Your opinion and your judgement of everyone else's opinion does not change that. All the other things you mention are irrelevant to the Ops question. Oh and an already very anti teacher public would very much care and would delight in publicly flogging a teacher who did this.

People simply can't say things like "I believe in being dishonest", or "it's OK to defraud your employer", whether they think like that or not. Other people - especially honest colleagues in the workplace - don't like to hear sentiments like that, because it pisses them off. I know that if I spoke like that and then skived off and pulled sickies, my colleagues would form a very low opinion of me, and rightly so.

So instead, what they do is convince themselves that what they are doing or advocating is OK. They tell themselves that everyone else is doing it, or that it's OK because their company or employer is doing them wrong so it's OK to "get them back". In order to make it OK to be deceitful or fraudulent, you have to persuade yourself that in some way you're doing an OK thing. You couldn't have an attitude like that without deluding yourself to some extent.

No outrage. Not even any disagreement. Just calling it like it is.

Anyway, the OP has some reasonable advice on the thread, so at least that's probably been worth it.

acequion

Deleted User wrote: »

No outrage. Not even any disagreement. Just calling it like it is.

And I too,am calling it like it is.And I have no problem with disagreement.What I do have a problem with is casting judgement on other people's beliefs and behaviour. I find it incredibly self righteous, as is the tone of your post and your analysis of the [in your view] wrongdoer's reasoning.

evolving_doors

acequion wrote: »

And I too,am calling it like it is.And I have no problem with disagreement.What I do have a problem with is casting judgement on other people's beliefs and behaviour. I find it incredibly self righteous, as is the tone of your post and your analysis of the [in your view] wrongdoer's reasoning.

Ahhh tis fraud Ted. Nothing to judge there, tis fraud.

acequion

acequion wrote: »

What I do have a problem with is casting judgement on other people's beliefs and behaviour....

If I was in favour of getting off work with the aid of a fraudulent medical cert, I'd probably have that concern as well. But I don't.

It's a matter of freedom of expression. As long as some people can express views in favour of getting off work with the aid of a fraudulent medical cert, and others can express views against getting off work with the aid of a fraudulent medical cert, we're all OK.

acequion

Deleted User wrote: »

If I was in favour of getting off work with the aid of a fraudulent medical cert, I'd probably have that concern as well. But I don't.

It's a matter of freedom of expression. As long as some people can express views in favour of getting off work with the aid of a fraudulent medical cert, and others can express views against getting off work with the aid of a fraudulent medical cert, we're all OK.

Freedom of expression is fine. Diversity of opinion is also fine. What is not fine is judging other people. What gives one person the right to judge another? Nothing in my view,except if that person is a judge in a court of law where it is his occupation to judge.

But the amount of ordinary joes who love to judge and criticise other ordinary joes really is amazing. Let's analyse this behaviour:

1. The person who judges others suffers from a perceived sense of moral superiority.
2. This person sees everything in black and white and doesn't recognise nuances, nor the complexity that is life.
3. Pointing out all the faux pas among his friends,collegues and neighbours and pointing the "thou shalt not" finger makes him feel oh so virtuous.
4. Feeling oh so virtuous might take his mind off his own,human [god forbid!] failings and problems.
5. And worst of all, these people are often hypocrites. Because who can honestly reach their death bed without ever having done something out of the way? Or who can say with absolute certainty that they will go to their grave without ever having sinned themselves?

So that's why I despise judging others. Let's all mind our own business,live and let live!

acequion

acequion wrote: »

What gives one person the right to judge another? Nothing in my view,except if that person is a judge in a court of law where it is his occupation to judge.

I take it from the above that you don't teach English. People form and express judgements all the time, and people are judged all the time. He's good looking. She's a kind person. Yer man is bone idle. That lot are a dirty team. And so on.

If I was in favour of getting off work with the aid of a false medical cert, I'd probably want others not to make judgements about my beliefs and behaviour. Why? Because I'd be somewhat embarrassed about it, that's why.

But my wishes wouldn't stop people making their judgements, because that's what people do. And if I attempted to wish away their judgement and my sense of embarrassment with emotive bluster and poorly-analysed semantics, it wouldn't really help. Maybe for a few minutes, but not for any decent length of time. I'd still know it was wrong, and the embarrassment would still creep back.

acequion wrote: »

So that's why I despise judging others.

I have a feeling you don't at all mind judging others. You just don't like others judging you. That's a common enough view of things.

Anyway, we have different views about the merits of getting time off on the basis of fake medical certs, and we aren't convincing each other. So let's stop wasting bandwidth. Cheers.