WADA/IAAF corruption report ... mod post #2 and again #1283

_Tombstone_

Kenyan athletics bosses looking for bribes to reduce suspensions of drugie athletes.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/dfdc30f20f924f418871016aa2d628e5/two-kenyan-athletes-serving-four-year-doping-bans-come

Kenya to possibly be banned from Olympics cuz they cant get druggies under control, 1 unnamed athlete says he has no choice but to cheat as everyone is.

http://m.bbc.com/sport/athletics/35551486


They may give up on these Olympics. Theirs no bottom for this. Cancel them for 8 years or just give up and let the "athletes" take what they want.

Chivito550

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

Kenyan athletics bosses looking for bribes to reduce suspensions of drugie athletes.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/dfdc30f20f924f418871016aa2d628e5/two-kenyan-athletes-serving-four-year-doping-bans-come

Kenya to possibly be banned from Olympics cuz they cant get druggies under control, 1 unnamed athlete says he has no choice but to cheat as everyone is.

http://m.bbc.com/sport/athletics/35551486


They may give up on these Olympics. Theirs no bottom for this. Cancel them for 8 years or just give up and let the "athletes" take what they want.

Ah yeh, good man. Because the Olympics is just one sport. Not 28. Cancel the whole thing because of certain countries not complying with WADA.

Should the Super Bowl be cancelled? The NFL is non compliant with WADA, and this year's Super Bowl MVP Von Miller has been banned more than once, and if he was an athlete would be banned for life right now, instead of being hailed as a hero.

average_runner

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

Kenyan athletics bosses looking for bribes to reduce suspensions of drugie athletes.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/dfdc30f20f924f418871016aa2d628e5/two-kenyan-athletes-serving-four-year-doping-bans-come

Kenya to possibly be banned from Olympics cuz they cant get druggies under control, 1 unnamed athlete says he has no choice but to cheat as everyone is.

http://m.bbc.com/sport/athletics/35551486


They may give up on these Olympics. Theirs no bottom for this. Cancel them for 8 years or just give up and let the "athletes" take what they want.

So you want to punish the not guilty people also?

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

Ah yeh, good man. Because the Olympics is just one sport. Not 28. Cancel the whole thing because of certain countries not complying with WADA.

Should the Super Bowl be cancelled? The NFL is non compliant with WADA, and this year's Super Bowl MVP Von Miller has been banned more than once, and if he was an athlete would be banned for life right now, instead of being hailed as a hero.

The difference with NFL and athletics is that NFL and the fans knows there is an issue with drugs and kinda accept it as part of their sport, but Athletics thinks its a sport that doesn't have a major problem and alot of people on this forum think that also and instead point fingers at other sports which is very sad

But NFL as an issue with WADA:

"Any investigation by WADA should begin with an independent one into their own practices, including the scientific basis for their tests and governance," George Atallah, the NFLPA's assistant executive director of external affairs, told Reuters.
"We rejected WADA participation into our drug policies precisely because they failed to be transparent with us over these very issues. Our union is working closely with UNI Global Union to develop strong and fair standards for drug testing."

Chivito550

average_runner wrote: »

The difference with NFL and athletics is that NFL and the fans knows there is an issue with drugs and kinda accept it as part of their sport, but Athletics thinks its a sport that doesn't have a major problem and alot of people on this forum think that also and instead point fingers at other sports which is very sad

Right, too much wrong with the above.

Firstly, you seem to thing that different rules for different sports is ok. Athletics must have the highest standards of ethics, but it's fine for NFL to be as dirty as it wants because the fans don't care. Lets ignore the fact that this free for all attitude is going to cost people their lives, and youngsters have no choice but to dope themselves to the eyeballs to dangerous levels in order to try make it in high school, college and finally NFL football. Also I wonder how much the fans are aware of doping in that sport. They might care but just aren't aware of it as it is not widely reported all that much. Many people don't know of Von Miller's murky past, and the same with regards Peyton Manning's HGH scandal of late. That's two integral parts of this year's "World Champions".

I'm not sure who on this forum you are talking about, but as somebody who keeps bringing up other sports I'm going to (rightly or wrongly) assume you are talking about me, among others.

Firstly, just because somebody highlights doping in other sports, doesn't mean that person thinks his/her own sport is clean. What a ridiculous comment. I happen to be passionate about a wide range of sports, and believe in clean sport, not just clean athletics. Now when I see one sport being punished (and deservedly so) for appalling acts, yet other sports aren't touched by the media for identical crimes, that is an injustice. Clean athletes are getting their names dragged through the mud, while dirty tennis players and footballers aren't even being questioned. Where is the fairness in that. Athletics is an umbrella term for many different disciplines, and sport is an umbrella term for many more disciplines and games. I believe in it all being clean, and I will not stop posting about other sports on this forum as I believe it to be relevant to athletics, and to what clean athletes have to go through unfairly.

In addition, I'm well aware that doping is rife in athletics. I'm no fool. I'm not running around with my head buried in the sand. I've been to considerably more major championships than you have, have contacts from around the world in the media, and have heard dodgy stories about athletes who most people assume are clean, so I am well aware of the scale of the doping problem in this sport.

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

Right, too much wrong with the above.

Firstly, you seem to thing that different rules for different sports is ok. Athletics must have the highest standards of ethics, but it's fine for NFL to be as dirty as it wants because the fans don't care. Lets ignore the fact that this free for all attitude is going to cost people their lives, and youngsters have no choice but to dope themselves to the eyeballs to dangerous levels in order to try make it in high school, college and finally NFL football. Also I wonder how much the fans are aware of doping in that sport. They might care but just aren't aware of it as it is not widely reported all that much. Many people don't know of Von Miller's murky past, and the same with regards Peyton Manning's HGH scandal of late. That's two integral parts of this year's "World Champions".

I'm not sure who on this forum you are talking about, but as somebody who keeps bringing up other sports I'm going to (rightly or wrongly) assume you are talking about me, among others.

Firstly, just because somebody highlights doping in other sports, doesn't mean that person thinks his/her own sport is clean. What a ridiculous comment. I happen to be passionate about a wide range of sports, and believe in clean sport, not just clean athletics. Now when I see one sport being punished (and deservedly so) for appalling acts, yet other sports aren't touched by the media for identical crimes, that is an injustice. Clean athletes are getting their names dragged through the mud, while dirty tennis players and footballers aren't even being questioned. Where is the fairness in that. Athletics is an umbrella term for many different disciplines, and sport is an umbrella term for many more disciplines and games. I believe in it all being clean, and I will not stop posting about other sports on this forum as I believe it to be relevant to athletics, and to what clean athletes have to go through unfairly.

In addition, I'm well aware that doping is rife in athletics. I'm no fool. I'm not running around with my head buried in the sand. I've been to considerably more major championships than you have, have contacts from around the world in the media, and have heard dodgy stories about athletes who most people assume are clean, so I am well aware of the scale of the doping problem in this sport.

I think anyone that follows and cares about NFL will know whats going on, its no hidden secret. People will also know that NFL give out small bans for drug offences but they don't go around preaching we are this and that.

Athletics preaches about a clean sport but then they are hiding drug results left, right and centre. Lewis of the USA is a perfect example of this, along with Russia, Spain, Kenya etc


As i said before, i agree there is issues in tennis, but I wouldn't be looking too far from off our shores for an example of it!!!!!

Chivito550

average_runner wrote: »

I think anyone that follows and cares about NFL will know whats going on, its no hidden secret. People will also know that NFL give out small bans for drug offences but they don't go around preaching we are this and that.

Athletics preaches about a clean sport but then they are hiding drug results left, right and centre. Lewis of the USA is a perfect example of this, along with Russia, Spain, Kenya etc


As i said before, i agree there is issues in tennis, but I wouldn't be looking too far from off our shores for an example of it!!!!!

Again, you either believe in clean sport or you don't. You seem to have an à la carte approach to this. You think it is ok for some sports to tolerate doping quite leniently, while it is not ok for others. This is a fundamental weakness in your viewpoint, and makes it next to impossible to take anything you say on the matter seriously.

All sports will try to portray that they are clean. The smarter ones will do enough testing to make the general public think the sport is clean, while not do nearly enough to actually catch anybody. Win win. Tennis and football falls into this category.

I have never ever in all my years of watching athletics heard the IAAF actually state that athletics is a clean sport. I have on the otherhand heard people in tennis, football, rugby and ice-hockey use those very words.

Birdie Num Num

average_runner wrote: »

The difference with NFL and athletics is that NFL and the fans knows there is an issue with drugs and kinda accept it as part of their sport, but Athletics thinks its a sport that doesn't have a major problem and alot of people on this forum think that also and instead point fingers at other sports which is very sad

But NFL as an issue with WADA:

"Any investigation by WADA should begin with an independent one into their own practices, including the scientific basis for their tests and governance," George Atallah, the NFLPA's assistant executive director of external affairs, told Reuters.
"We rejected WADA participation into our drug policies precisely because they failed to be transparent with us over these very issues. Our union is working closely with UNI Global Union to develop strong and fair standards for drug testing."

Of course Athletics has a problem with drugs and has accepted it and testing, at least in some countries such as our own, is vigorous. Are you implying that the acceptance of drugs in a sport like NFL makes it okay? It sounds like, in your post, the NFL are trying to dance around WADA to suit themselves. Weight Lifting has probably the worst record for drugs in any sport but few, on this forum or elsewhere, are pointing the finger. I don't think there are many sports out there that don't have a problem with drugs but it doesn't mean we should accept it as ok. I would guess that Athletics in Ireland is cleaner than some other sports in Ireland but that would not be shared with public opinion.

ThisRegard

Well Kenya had until last night to provide proof that they're making moves to become compliant, which it didn't look like they were going to meet. Then they'll put on warning for 2 weeks, and after that they'll be deemed non compliant and follow the same road Russia went.

I can' t find the article I skimmed through yesterday at lunch to make sure the details I have above are correct, but I'll continue looking.

Edit: Not the one I read but it has all the details, http://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/35551486 It's an additional 2 months they're given while they're on a watch list, and after that they'll be automatically deemed non compliant.

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

Again, you either believe in clean sport or you don't. You seem to have an à la carte approach to this. You think it is ok for some sports to tolerate doping quite leniently, while it is not ok for others. This is a fundamental weakness in your viewpoint, and makes it next to impossible to take anything you say on the matter seriously.

All sports will try to portray that they are clean. The smarter ones will do enough testing to make the general public think the sport is clean, while not do nearly enough to actually catch anybody. Win win. Tennis and football falls into this category.

I have never ever in all my years of watching athletics heard the IAAF actually state that athletics is a clean sport. I have on the otherhand heard people in tennis, football, rugby and ice-hockey use those very words.

What I have a problem with is when a sport said its doing one thing and then its obvious to the world they aren't doing it. Thats what I have a problem with.
IAAF knows certain countries are not meeting the necessary standards for a drug testing but yet are allowed to compete. If they are serious about it, stop the talk and take the action!!

Athletics Ireland said it was totally clean only a month ago!!!

average_runner

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

Of course Athletics has a problem with drugs and has accepted it and testing, at least in some countries such as our own, is vigorous. Are you implying that the acceptance of drugs in a sport like NFL makes it okay? It sounds like, in your post, the NFL are trying to dance around WADA to suit themselves. Weight Lifting has probably the worst record for drugs in any sport but few, on this forum or elsewhere, are pointing the finger. I don't think there are many sports out there that don't have a problem with drugs but it doesn't mean we should accept it as ok. I would guess that Athletics in Ireland is cleaner than some other sports in Ireland but that would not be shared with public opinion.

NFL are already down that road and majority of fans are accepting it, going by the viewing and attendance figures.

wrstan

ThisRegard wrote: »

It's an additional 2 months they're given while they're on a watch list, and after that they'll be automatically deemed non compliant.

Do you know if they are deemed non compliant after the 2 months does that lead to automatic suspension, or is there another step in between?

ThisRegard

Not sure exactly, I imagine that the IAAF may have to make the decision, didn't they have to do that with Russia? But as there's precedent with Russia, they can't really avoid suspending them.

adrian522

Chivito550 wrote: »

Ah yeh, good man. Because the Olympics is just one sport. Not 28. Cancel the whole thing because of certain countries not complying with WADA.

Should the Super Bowl be cancelled? The NFL is non compliant with WADA, and this year's Super Bowl MVP Von Miller has been banned more than once, and if he was an athlete would be banned for life right now, instead of being hailed as a hero.

He wouldn't be banned for life if he was an athlete. I would say he is an athlete but anyway, he received a 6 game ban for failing a test (4 Games) and attempting to dilute the sample (2 Games). In any case this was for recreational drug use not PED's. There are far worse things going on in the NFL than a linebacker who likes to smoke weed.

I'm not aware of any other ban Miller received, he's been fined for illegal hits and what not but no other bans that I'm aware of.

What athlete's have received life bans for similar offenses?

Chivito550

adrian522 wrote: »

He wouldn't be banned for life if he was an athlete. I would say he is an athlete but anyway, he received a 6 game ban for failing a test (4 Games) and attempting to dilute the sample (2 Games). In any case this was for recreational drug use not PED's. There are far worse things going on in the NFL than a linebacker who likes to smoke weed.

I'm not aware of any other ban Miller received, he's been fined for illegal hits and what not but no other bans that I'm aware of.

What athlete's have received life bans for similar offenses?

http://www.stlamerican.com/sports/sports_columnists/in_the_clutch/article_026731c0-263f-11e3-a992-001a4bcf887a.html

Two offences from two different tests, albeit in the same time frame. Two offences in athletics is a life ban strictly speaking. He tried to defraud the system too, so it's not just a case of failing a drug test. Remember Michelle Smith got banned for tampering and the ban was 4 years (twice the length of the ban for failing a test at the time). Here the NFL give him a token extra 2 game ban.

According to this link it is more than just weed this guy was on:

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/7/22/4545942/von-miller-suspension-marijuana-amphetamines-denver-broncos

adrian522

Chivito550 wrote: »

http://www.stlamerican.com/sports/sports_columnists/in_the_clutch/article_026731c0-263f-11e3-a992-001a4bcf887a.html

Two offences from two different tests, albeit in the same time frame. Two offences in athletics is a life ban strictly speaking. He tried to defraud the system too, so it's not just a case of failing a drug test. Remember Michelle Smith got banned for tampering and the ban was 4 years (twice the length of the ban for failing a test at the time). Here the NFL give him a token extra 2 game ban.

According to this link it is more than just weed this guy was on:

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/7/22/4545942/von-miller-suspension-marijuana-amphetamines-denver-broncos

I don't know of any athletes that got a life ban. Justin Gatlin certainly didn't and he's been caught several times.

Yeah, he got done for tampering with a sample too, but also for colluding with the guy who was taking the sample, who was subsequently fired.

The NFL don't care about PED's, a lot of substances that are banned in Athletics are administered by NFL doctors every week to get players back on the field.

The NFL test for HGH will only return a positive test if HGH was administered in the hour prior to the test.

Chivito550

adrian522 wrote: »

I don't know of any athletes that got a life ban. Justin Gatlin certainly didn't and he's been caught several times.

Yeah, he got done for tampering with a sample too, but also for colluding with the guy who was taking the sample, who was subsequently fired.

The NFL don't care about PED's, a lot of substances that are banned in Athletics are administered by NFL doctors every week to get players back on the field.

The NFL test for HGH will only return a positive test if HGH was administered in the hour prior to the test.

You must not follow athletics closely enough. Some high profile names banned for second offences include:

Süreyya Ayhan (Turkey) - European 1500m Champ 2002, World Silver in 2003, and a 3:55 runner
Randy Barnes (USA) - Olympic Shot Putt Champ 1996
Lyudmyla Blonska (Ukraine) - Won silver at the heptathlon at 2008 Olympics, stripped soon after
Ben Johnson - needs no introduction
Steve Mullings (Jamaica) - sub 9.8 for the 100m
Jerome Young (USA) - Medalist from 2004 World Champs 400m

There's many more names in here. Life bans in bold.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_athletics

And yes you're just reiterating my point that the NFL don't care about doping. People seem to have double standards when it comes to doping. average runner certainly does.

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

You must not follow athletics closely enough. Some high profile names banned for second offences include:

Süreyya Ayhan (Turkey) - European 1500m Champ 2002, World Silver in 2003, and a 3:55 runner
Randy Barnes (USA) - Olympic Shot Putt Champ 1996
Lyudmyla Blonska (Ukraine) - Won silver at the heptathlon at 2008 Olympics, stripped soon after
Ben Johnson - needs no introduction
Steve Mullings (Jamaica) - sub 9.8 for the 100m
Jerome Young (USA) - Medalist from 2004 World Champs 400m

There's many more names in here. Life bans in bold.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_athletics

And yes you're just reiterating my point that the NFL don't care about doping. People seem to have double standards when it comes to doping. average runner certainly does.

I don't have double standards but I do not have any time for organisations that pretend to be doing something they aren't.

My quote from above

"What I have a problem with is when a sport said its doing one thing and then its obvious to the world they aren't doing it. Thats what I have a problem with.
IAAF knows certain countries are not meeting the necessary standards for a drug testing but yet are allowed to compete. If they are serious about it, stop the talk and take the action!!"

adrian522

But Miller was just banned once, I don't agree that an Athlete in his position would have received a life ban. I agree with your overall point but what he has been caught for is not something that would involve a life ban in Athletics I don't think.

He may have got a 2 year ban instead of a quarter season ban but he wouldn't have gotten a life ban I don't think.

Chivito550

adrian522 wrote: »

But Miller was just banned once, I don't agree that an Athlete in his position would have received a life ban. I agree with your overall point but what he has been caught for is not something that would involve a life ban in Athletics I don't think.

He may have got a 2 year ban instead of a quarter season ban but he wouldn't have gotten a life ban I don't think.

He committed 2 different offences from 2 different tests. At the very least he would have got a significantly longer ban than a regular doping ban, because he tried to defraud the system.

wrstan

Disgraced ex head of RUSADA dies suddenly

Could this be for real? It all just gets more and more bizarre!

rom

wrstan wrote: »

Disgraced ex head of RUSADA dies suddenly

Could this be for real? It all just gets more and more bizarre!

Like something from a James Bond movie.

Itziger

Watching the Glasgow indoors now. 'I Run Clean' every athlete has on their bib.

Doping problem solved!

Whoever came up with the idea should get a knighthood.

Chivito550

Itziger wrote: »

Watching the Glasgow indoors now. 'I Run Clean' every athlete has on their bib.

Doping problem solved!

Whoever came up with the idea should get a knighthood.

Haha, first person I saw wearing it was Michael Rodgers. Too funny!

Beasty

Itziger wrote: »

Watching the Glasgow indoors now. 'I Run Clean' every athlete has on their bib.

Doping problem solved!

Whoever came up with the idea should get a knighthood.

Is anyone claiming it's going to make a big difference?

The commentators mentioned it before racing commenced. No-one if kidding themselves, it's simply one very small thing they have done that perhaps gets a few more people aware of and thinking about the issue (including those watching either live or on TV). It's part of an attempt to recognise there is an issue, and I don't see any reason to be cynical about it.

Oh and only the runners had that on their bib. The jumpers had "I jump clean"

shels4ever

Beasty wrote: »

Is anyone claiming it's going to make a big difference?

The commentators mentioned it before racing commenced. No-one if kidding themselves, it's simply one very small thing they have done that perhaps gets a few more people aware of and thinking about the issue (including those watching either live or on TV). It's part of an attempt to recognise there is an issue, and I don't see any reason to be cynical about it.

Oh and only the runners had that on their bib. The jumpers had "I jump clean"

It's a pure pr stunt to make it look like things are been done, know dirty athletes with these on is a farce and makes the sport look stupid. I'd rather nobody wore them.

dna_leri

wrstan wrote: »

Disgraced ex head of RUSADA dies suddenly

Could this be for real? It all just gets more and more bizarre!

According to David Walsh:

Wrote about late Nikita Kamaev for S Times this week. 2 months ago the former Rusada boss and I were talking about book he was writing.
He wanted me to co-author book. He's been a scientist at Russia's secret lab long before he went to Rusada. Claimed he would tell all.
He indicated what he knew would be more controversial than German TV documentary. Was found dead last week, reports said heart attack.

https://twitter.com/DavidWalshST

Dubgal72

Interesting observations from Hartmann

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/other-sports/gerard-hartmann-interview-have-we-lost-the-very-essence-of-sport-383062.html

ThisRegard

Some of what he says is contradictory, he believe Coe is the right man in the IAAF as he says

In the IAAF, there was no accountability, no traceability and at the top, at the governance level, there was corruption.

But Hartmann excuses Coe by saying he was part of the executive rather than at a lower level, that's no excuse. But he then says that Coe should be there because there's no one else. Hardly a reason for Coe being the right man for the job.

shels4ever

ThisRegard wrote: »

Some of what he says is contradictory, he believe Coe is the right man in the IAAF as he says

But Hartmann excuses Coe by saying he was part of the executive rather than at a lower level, that's no excuse. But he then says that Coe should be there because there's no one else. Hardly a reason for Coe being the right man for the job.

i wouldn't take anything Hartmann says about drugs in sport on board after his comments on Armstrong.

Enduro

shels4ever wrote: »

i wouldn't take anything Hartmann says about drugs in sport on board after his comments on Armstrong.

Would you have a link to those please?

shels4ever

Enduro wrote: »

Would you have a link to those please?

http://www.limerickpost.ie/2012/08/30/hartmann-stands-by-armstrong/

Enduro

shels4ever wrote: »

http://www.limerickpost.ie/2012/08/30/hartmann-stands-by-armstrong/

Yup, that's classic cancer-jesus excuses right there

ThisRegard

I deplore athletes who take drugs

.....

Lance stuck to his guns when the accusations were flying around about him…the fact is, he never tested positive.

Jesus.

average_runner

ThisRegard wrote: »

.....


Jesus.

I take it he doesn't stand by that statement now since Lance admitted he took drugs

Notwork Error

ThisRegard wrote: »

.....


Jesus.

Hindsight is 20/20 and can make a complete fool out of the best of us lads.

Itziger

average_runner wrote: »

I take it he doesn't stand by that statement now since Lance admitted he took drugs

It's still a fact though

ThisRegard

Notwork Error wrote: »

Hindsight is 20/20 and can make a complete fool out of the best of us lads.

At the time of that interview, 2012, and you believed in Armstrong, it wasn't hindsight making you a fool, you were doing a pretty good job of it all by yourself.

Itziger

Notwork Error wrote: »

Hindsight is 20/20 and can make a complete fool out of the best of us lads.

The article is from after Lance admitted!!

Notwork Error

Itziger wrote: »

The article is from after Lance admitted!!

No, it's not. It's like the day that the USADA report came out and about 4 months before he admitted it.

Itziger

When asked if he had second thoughts about continuing to display the Armstrong gifts now that the cyclist’s reputation lies in tatters, he replied:
“No, I have not even considered it. Lance is something of an enigma.
“I have no doubt but that he crossed the line and was part of a systematic and very scientific system of performance enhancing drug use.

Two sentences later, "Nonetheless,......"

Hehe. "Nonetheless, ......"

Notwork Error

ThisRegard wrote: »

At the time of that interview, 2012, and you believed in Armstrong, it wasn't hindsight making you a fool, you were doing a pretty good job of it all by yourself.

I love this obsession with Lance on the athletics forum and the pointing and laughing at someone like Hartmann's judgement been off and laughing at it in hindsight when 95% of the poster's probably haven't even ever seen Lance ride a stage of the tdf nevermind a a classic or stage of an non-grand tour event. The amount of bandwagoning on the Lance subject was like no other and most hadn't even heard of David Walsh or Paul Kimmage until Lance admitted it but hopped on the wagon and started pointing fingers only then when they knew it was fact. Easy then of course to look back and laugh at people who backed Lance before it all came out without a shred of doubt. It's the same as concept as the 250,000 people who claimed to be in thomond park in 1979 for Munster v The all blacks.

I'm not a Lance fan, far from it but every single thread devolves into a discussion on him to try prove a point. Why not Merckx? Anquetil? Roche? Because most people here don't know their ar*e from their elbow when it comes to cycling but are somehow an expert when it comes to Lance Armstrong even though they never watched a grand tour or saw how he won to raise suspicion. Have never read a book by David Walsh, Kimmage, Pierre Ballester or Tyler Hamilton to know how the case and evidence was built but somehow "knew it all before it fully came out" and knew that Lance was guilty and anyone that said otherwise was a fool.

Yes, what Hartmann said now looks like a foolish judgement call at the time but where's the context? Hartmann was a friend of Armstrong's and even if he thought Armstrong was doping, why would he rat him out to the media of all people and without facts to back it up? But let's all look back at and laugh at Hartmann in hindsight. I swear, these threads are becoming a more sensationalist clusterfook than the doping threads on letsrun. Over and out!

ThisRegard

That's a fine tantrum right there.

To simplify it for you, all that happened here is that a poster linked to a story about his view on the current drug situation in athletics, I pointed it out that it's somewhere contradictory and another mentioned his previous views on drugs in cycling so it's not to be taking serous.

Then you got upset and think that nobody before Lance came clean had a problem with him, which is bizarre.

You genuinely believe that there was no context in 2012?! A former team mate of Armstrong had stood in front of a court as part of a US Justice investigation and said he saw him dope before that interview. "Rat him out", how old are you? Many people of much more significance than this lad had already spoken out on what Armstrong did, seems like Hartmann was the only person who knew Armstrong claiming he was innocent at that point in time.

Chivito550

Notwork Error wrote: »

I love this obsession with Lance on the athletics forum and the pointing and laughing at someone like Hartmann's judgement been off and laughing at it in hindsight when 95% of the poster's probably haven't even ever seen Lance ride a stage of the tdf nevermind a a classic or stage of an non-grand tour event. The amount of bandwagoning on the Lance subject was like no other and most hadn't even heard of David Walsh or Paul Kimmage until Lance admitted it but hopped on the wagon and started pointing fingers only then when they knew it was fact. Easy then of course to look back and laugh at people who backed Lance before it all came out without a shred of doubt. It's the same as concept as the 250,000 people who claimed to be in thomond park in 1979 for Munster v The all blacks.

I'm not a Lance fan, far from it but every single thread devolves into a discussion on him to try prove a point. Why not Merckx? Anquetil? Roche? Because most people here don't know their ar*e from their elbow when it comes to cycling but are somehow an expert when it comes to Lance Armstrong even though they never watched a grand tour or saw how he won to raise suspicion. Have never read a book by David Walsh, Kimmage, Pierre Ballester or Tyler Hamilton to know how the case and evidence was built but somehow "knew it all before it fully came out" and knew that Lance was guilty and anyone that said otherwise was a fool.

Yes, what Hartmann said now looks like a foolish judgement call at the time but where's the context? Hartmann was a friend of Armstrong's and even if he thought Armstrong was doping, why would he rat him out to the media of all people and without facts to back it up? But let's all look back at and laugh at Hartmann in hindsight. I swear, these threads are becoming a more sensationalist clusterfook than the doping threads on letsrun. Over and out!

Lol at the Comment about people not watching Lance ride the classics and non Tour de France races. Bit hard to watch him race those, when he almost never did (post cancer). He built his entire year around the Tour and hardly raced anything else. This helped destroy cycling as much as doping IMO. The status of other races aren't what they used to be and Lance played a big part in that. If Merkx adopted the Lance approach he'd have won about 10 tours!

Off topic. I just found that part of your post funny.

Notwork Error

Chivito550 wrote: »

Lol at the Comment about people not watching Lance ride the classics and non Tour de France races. Bit hard to watch him race those, when he almost never did (post cancer). He built his entire year around the Tour and hardly raced anything else. This helped destroy cycling as much as doping IMO. The status of other races aren't what they used to be and Lance played a big part in that. If Merkx adopted the Lance approach he'd have won about 10 tours!

Off topic. I just found that part of your post funny.

Bend my words all you want. I said most people haven't seen him ride a stage of the tdf nevermind a classic or stage race. I thought a journalist would have some sort of a grip on the English language but I guess that's not your prerogative behind posting that. 2/10 just because I wasted my time replying.

Itziger

Chivito550 wrote: »

Lol at the Comment about people not watching Lance ride the classics and non Tour de France races. Bit hard to watch him race those, when he almost never did (post cancer). He built his entire year around the Tour and hardly raced anything else. This helped destroy cycling as much as doping IMO. The status of other races aren't what they used to be and Lance played a big part in that. If Merkx adopted the Lance approach he'd have won about 10 tours!

Off topic. I just found that part of your post funny.

Now to be fair to Lance (and Notwork) I kinda blame Indurain for that Tour obsession, though he did do the Giro as well to be fair.

But back to the 'bandwagon' bit. Followed my first Tour in 77 when I visited France for 4 or 5 weeks on me Confirmation money!! Luckily I was a God-fearing Catholic back then. Became hooked on it and then Pro cycling in general. I was 12 that first year so I hope I can be forgiven my ignorance of the drug culture. That ignorance didn't last too long though as I started reading up on some of the famous names. One hilarious story concerned our own S Kelly. Don't know when the book was written, but I think it was about mid or late 80's. The story goes that Kelly needed a topper upper and so before the drug test he asked a mechanic/driver for a bag of piss that he could hide under the armpit and squeeze through a tube when the time came (as you do, like). Results come back. POSITIVE! Da heck, thinks Kelly, that driver! Your man was quizzed and said that he'd had to drive across Europe through the night from some minor race and popped a couple of pills to keep him awake. You'd have to laugh. The culture was different though back in the day, nowhere near as scientific and studied. When the Italian and Spanish doctors started to get seriously involved that all changed. That clip where Indurain speeds past a pre cancer Lance in a Time Trial in the Tour. Never mind his climbing mountains better than climbers who weighed 15 kilos less. AND YET, I still watch the Tour and some of the classics most years. Still awed by the exploits, but I'd say your 'clean' riders are a small minority. Very small most years. Sad, isn't it.

Chivito550

Notwork Error wrote: »

Bend my words all you want. I said most people haven't seen him ride a stage of the tdf nevermind a classic or stage race. I thought a journalist would have some sort of a grip on the English language but I guess that's not your prerogative behind posting that. 2/10 just because I wasted my time replying.

There really was no need for personal remarks like that. Seems like you've closed your account anyway. Juvenile carry on.

davedanon

Incoherent nonsense from Hartmann. Maybe he's on drugs.

Enduro

Notwork Error wrote: »

Because most people here don't know their ar*e from their elbow when it comes to cycling but are somehow an expert when it comes to Lance Armstrong even though they never watched a grand tour or saw how he won to raise suspicion. Have never read a book by David Walsh, Kimmage, Pierre Ballester or Tyler Hamilton to know how the case and evidence was built but somehow "knew it all before it fully came out" and knew that Lance was guilty and anyone that said otherwise was a fool.

Now there's an supremely arrogant and lazy assumption right there... that you know so much more about cycling than the rest of us know-nothings.

Myles Splitz

Lads I think you can give up the argument, you have already rail-roaded him off the forum.