Opening a cafe - help + advice needed

scwazrh

Fitting out coffee shops and restaurants make up a large portion of our business.The single best piece of advice I have heard being offered is to take over a premises that someone else has fitted out and operated from.Majority of food industry business that we see closing are due to enormous start out costs for premises and equipment .Trying to meet the red tape of fire, DAC and other planning restraints and requirements when making a planning change of use a for a unit is a time consuming and expensive process.
Being in the Gaeltacht area may well reduce the need for cutting edge fashionable fitouts and menus but the requirement for quality and value for money will be every bit as important as being in a city centre .

antoinolachtnai

It is not in a prime location if it is in the Gaeltacht, unfortunately. It might be more prime than the rest of the Gaeltacht but that doesn't make it prime. I don't know of any spot in the Gaeltacht where the passing traffic would be enough to sustain a food outlet when you consider that less than 1 person in 100 who passes by will go into your premises.

You really need to work out from first principles how much money you need to bring in in sales in order to not go wallop. (This is what in polite circles is called 'breakeven').

Then you work out the minimum amount of capital you can put in to set up a business that can do the required turnover with the required margin.

A big problem is that it is generally not enough to do coffee anymore. It may never have been enough to do in an area like what you describe. You need some sort of decent food offer.

It is going to be really tough to launch this business. It is possible, but you need a lot of support (in terms of finance and skills but also from the community generally).

Fran1985

There is a difference between tough love and being a jerk and, unfortunately, the tone of some replies here fall into the latter category which is really unnessesasry.
OP i cant help ya with prices but do keep an eye on the liquidation auctions. Theres Usually some top quality used items at these. I hope it works out for you.

Fran1985

Fran1985 wrote: »

There is a difference between tough love and being a jerk and, unfortunately, the tone of some replies here fall into the latter category which is really unnessesasry.
OP i cant help ya with prices but do keep an eye on the liquidation auctions. Theres Usually some top quality used items at these. I hope it works out for you.

I think pretty much everyone agrees that its a very hard business with a big failure rate. Estimating all the startup costs is the easiest part! We may not know the exact circumstances of the business but my philosophy is if your going to start a business give yourself the best chance of success. Business is hard enough in the first place without going into something blinkered thats already very very hard to make a success of. Even the nicest posters would probably agree with that I think.

pedronomix

Fran1985 wrote: »

There is a difference between tough love and being a jerk and, unfortunately, the tone of some replies here fall into the latter category which is really unnessesasry.
OP i cant help ya with prices but do keep an eye on the liquidation auctions. Theres Usually some top quality used items at these. I hope it works out for you.

This is a classic about the tone of posts and as usual ignores the most important element, content (rather light in that department too).

It is blindingly obvious that the OP has little or no relevant experience in the nuts and bolts of the catering business, the vast majority are shouting stop, dont do it. Go work in it, learn it and then you at least get to understand how the business works and then you might have a chance to identify a real business opportunity, but only if there is a sustainable market opportunity to support it.

Entrepreneurship has been grossly overhyped as a nirvana for all in recent years.The realty is that only a very small minority have the skills, talents, experience and access to cash to make a real go of it and with all these in place it is still very tough from a startup. Mindless encouragement is all very nice but actually only serves to give false hope. Harsh words are water off a duck's back to real entrepreneurs, what they mean is what matters.


PS That 3 people like your post probably sums up the level of expectation on this forum! Well done on winning the likes.

Fran1985

pedronomix wrote: »

This is a classic about the tone of posts and as usual ignores the most important element, content (rather light in that department too).

It is blindingly obvious that the OP has little or no relevant experience in the nuts and bolts of the catering business, the vast majority are shouting stop, dont do it. Go work in it, learn it and then you at least get to understand how the business works and then you might have a chance to identify a real business opportunity, but only if there is a sustainable market opportunity to support it.

Entrepreneurship has been grossly overhyped as a nirvana for all in recent years.The realty is that only a very small minority have the skills, talents, experience and access to cash to make a real go of it and with all these in place it is still very tough from a startup. Mindless encouragement is all very nice but actually only serves to give false hope. Harsh words are water off a duck's back to real entrepreneurs, what they mean is what matters.


PS That 3 people like your post probably sums up the level of expectation on this forum! Well done on winning the likes.

I wasnt going for likes to be honest and hadnt even checked. Youre obviously concerned about them. Im not.

The Op asked for advice on a number of things. I admitted i didnt know the answers but that they might find liquidation auctions would help bring down said costs. Advice.

If the op wants to set up a business, what's it to you? They werent asking for you to loan them the money. They havent even decided if its feesible yet. The op is merely looking into the idea, and im sure will make an informed decision on wether the plan is viable or not. I hope it is viable and works out well for them.

makeandcreate

Fran1985 wrote: »

I wasnt going for likes to be honest and hadnt even checked. Youre obviously concerned about them. Im not.

The Op asked for advice on a number of things. I admitted i didnt know the answers but that they might find liquidation auctions would help bring down said costs. Advice.

If the op wants to set up a business, what's it to you? They werent asking for you to loan them the money. They havent even decided if its feesible yet. The op is merely looking into the idea, and im sure will make an informed decision on wether the plan is viable or not. I hope it is viable and works out well for them.

I hope it works out for him, I hope it is viable.

Liquidation auctions are great - but what if that Gaggia is a dud, the Merry Chef not so merry and the fryer - fried? Catering equipment is expensive but generally comes with some sort of maintenance contract or guarantee in place. Unless you have a someone in your family or a friend that can turn their hand to fixing these sort of things, buying second hand can bite you in the bum. A coffee shop with no coffee is up the creek without a paddle.
Back to OP -
When I think of cafes in the Gaeltacht, I invariably think of this place - http://builinblasta.ie/
First few times I thought it was wonderful, then I thought it was pretentious (maybe when it won the GC award?) and the last couple of times it has been just ok. Perhaps the fatigue of being "on top of the game" for so long has started to set in?
Not knowing your basic cafe style, offering or brand(USP) it's not possible to comment on how to structure your costings.

_Brian

Fran1985 wrote: »

I wasnt going for likes to be honest and hadnt even checked. Youre obviously concerned about them. Im not.

The Op asked for advice on a number of things. I admitted i didnt know the answers but that they might find liquidation auctions would help bring down said costs. Advice.

If the op wants to set up a business, what's it to you? They werent asking for you to loan them the money. They havent even decided if its feesible yet. The op is merely looking into the idea, and im sure will make an informed decision on wether the plan is viable or not. I hope it is viable and works out well for them.

indeed they seem not to have decided if its feasible yet, but as per OP in the first post they are close to singing a lease in a prime location, I'd presume that will be costly and if they jump in without proper planning then its going to be very hard to make a go of things.. Its a pattern repeated in every town/city across the country - poor up front planning and costings mean many new businesses are doomed before they turn on the lights on the first day of business !!

pedroeibar1

makeandcreate wrote: »

.......When I think of cafes in the Gaeltacht, I invariably think of this place - http://builinblasta.ie/
..... the last couple of times it has been just ok. ......

Fair comments in your post on dud equipment. I looked at that blasta site and would seriously doubt the culinary abilities of those who would serve orange juice with a Goats cheese Filo Tart, lemon juice with a hot bacon sandwich, a cup of coffee with “High Tea” and red wine with seafood chowder!:eek:

As to another poster’s suggestion to take over a premises that is fitted out, yes, but if the place has closed down as a food outlet, does that not say something (important)?

Leaving aside the skills of the OP, the big issue is ROCE and a nice place in the Gaeltacht will work for a few months in the summer. OK if he owns a shop premises and wants to do a bit in the summer, not a hope if he has to lease, fit-out and staff.

pedroeibar1

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Fair comments in your post on dud equipment. I looked at that blasta site and would seriously doubt the culinary abilities of those who would serve orange juice with a Goats cheese Filo Tart, lemon juice with a hot bacon sandwich, a cup of coffee with “High Tea” and red wine with seafood chowder!:eek:

In fairness Pedro if a place can make those kind of combinations and stay in business, it could be a cake walk for the OP!

dbran

Many years ago I worked with a restaurant that was based in a rural area.

It basically was all go from 12 July to the UK bank holiday on 15 August. After that it was just tumble weed with basically nothing to do. If they did not make their money in that period they were goosed for the rest of the year.

I remember they were just terrified of their staff robbing from them. If any one of them got a good scheme going it they would be long gone before anyone noticed what was happening.

Ahh the memories....long hours working out weekly margins...explaing to the MD where the variances were...up one week down the next...stressed out big time after it all. But gosh I learned a lot about managers and staff apportioning blame shooting the messenger:rolleyes:.

dbran

pedroeibar1

Deleted User wrote: »

In fairness Pedro if a place can make those kind of combinations and stay in business, it could be a cake walk for the OP!

Well that takes the biscuit!:p:) Like anything successful, its attention to detail that counts. Take dress sense – anyone can buy expensive clothes, it takes flair to coordinate / put them together and look stylish. Same for food, anyone can dig up a recipe for a dish but it takes care and flair to get a combination and the presentation right. That restau has a wine licence, why not get the food/drink pairings correct? (And possibly prompt the sale of a higher margin product, wine?)

dbran is quite right above about the off-season and the robbery/blame, I also mentioned wastage & shrinkage somewhere. I know the SW quite well and most of the better tourist area hotels there open only on weekends (often for weddings) and almost all the best restaurants close for the off-season (as I said here on page one

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

......Has anyone ever been in any Gaeltacht area in winter? High footfall location ? even the local pubs close down except for weekends! The profit on the take from a few good summer months would not even cover the depreciation sum on a half decent secondhand coffee machine…..

makeandcreate

dbran wrote: »

Many years ago I worked with a restaurant that was based in a rural area.

It basically was all go from 12 July to the UK bank holiday on 15 August. After that it was just tumble weed with basically nothing to do. If they did not make their money in that period they were goosed for the rest of the year.

I remember they were just terrified of their staff robbing from them. If any one of them got a good scheme going it they would be long gone before anyone noticed what was happening.

Ahh the memories....long hours working out weekly margins...explaing to the MD where the variances were...up one week down the next...stressed out big time after it all. But gosh I learned a lot about managers and staff apportioning blame shooting the messenger:rolleyes:.

dbran

Way back. I remember one place that had for a long time sacked staff and paid bar watchers etc convinced the till was down - after about 6 months of being there, a till jammed and when I took the back of the till out (not just the drawer) - there was over £600 stuffed in the back space in 20's - but the main issue was staff were over changing constantly - easy to spot if someone breaks their flow.

dbran

..... And then there was the episode where the manager was giving away free meals and drink to all of his friends.

Couldnt work out why the margins were down but when I eventually twigged it he just shrugged his shoulders and said ..."Ah sure how is the restaurant going to get a good reputation if you dont get the locals to come in and try the food.":rolleyes:

dbran