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M20 Limerick to Cork

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    #32
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,523 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    marno21 wrote: »
    There is no immediate plans to improve public transport bar the Luas Cross City works, which aren't going to be of much use for someone commuting Maynooth - Sandyford.

    You probably picked a bad example there. the new luas line will make Maynooth-Sandyford commutes possible by public transport with just one change at Broombridge.


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    #33
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    cgcsb wrote: »
    You probably picked a bad example there. the new luas line will make Maynooth-Sandyford commutes possible by public transport with just one change at Broombridge.

    So your saying that fixing Dublins transport issues is far more important than this motorway?


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    #34
    highlydebased
    Registered Users Posts: 7,468 ✭✭✭highlydebased


    Shannon will get its time again, but only if people locally support the services already there (not having a go at anybody here). Some are too quick to hop on the bus to Dublin and fly from there because they assume they can't get a service from Shannon without bothering to check. All too often I hear of people driving to Dublin to fly to London, very annoying esp. when there's 6 flights to London a day from Shannon...!


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    #35
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,523 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Mr.H wrote: »
    So your saying that fixing Dublins transport issues is far more important than this motorway?

    Well no I didn't say that :confused: but I would agree somewhat with the above statement.


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    #36
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    highlydebased wrote: »
    Shannon will get its time again, but only if people locally support the services already there (not having a go at anybody here). Some are too quick to hop on the bus to Dublin and fly from there because they assume they can't get a service from Shannon without bothering to check. All too often I hear of people driving to Dublin to fly to London, very annoying esp. when there's 6 flights to London a day from Shannon...!

    Yea I will fly from Shannon any chance I can but that is, as someone mentioned before, because getting friends or family to drop you out is a lot better than paying for petrol to Dublin then parking.
    cgcsb wrote: »
    Well no I didn't say that :confused: but I would agree somewhat with the above statement.

    Why you so confused when you agree with what I accuse you of thinking??

    To so you are translucent would be an understatement. Typical Dublin attitude of "the rest of the country doesnt matter"


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    #37
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Lets say you were a tourist thinking about travelling to Ireland. Which would sound better?

    Dublin having the underground built or a motorway from Cork to Galway??

    Its obvious to those who can be objective which would better the country


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    #38
    power101
    Registered Users Posts: 300 ✭✭power101


    The impact of that 850million spent between Cork & Limerick would have a far greater impact than the same amount spent in Dublin. It would open up the whole south and west to development and massively encourage use of Shannon Airport.


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    #39
    1huge1
    Registered Users Posts: 6,173 ✭✭✭1huge1


    Mr.H wrote: »
    :eek: wow. So Dublin got "shafted"??
    • €2.4 billion, 16.5km Metro link from Dublin city to the airport and on to Swords
    • The Dart line will be extended to Balbriggan
    • Planning will begin on extending the Dart to Maynooth and to Hazelhatch
    • Phoenix Park tunnel will be reopened
    • M7 Naas to Newbridge Bypass Widening

    I recommend you actually look into those,

    *The Metro North was announced over 10 years ago, all the did was announce a scaled down version and then delayed it. The project wont even see a shovel until 2021, it is beyond a joke.

    The Dart Line being extended to Balbriggan, also, this wont happen until 2021, yet it is only 4 stops past where the current dart ends.[*]

    *As for planning on the Dart to Maynooth/Hazelhatch, we all know how that goes in this country. (see the above 2 points)

    *The only thing happening in the foreseeable future here is the "reopening" of the Phoenix Park Tunnel which was built 140 years ago and is costing a mere €8m.

    *As for the Naas road widening, I would prefer to see the money spent on Dart Underground so people coming from the Naas side would have proper access to the city by train. This would greatly facilitate people getting out of the cars and freeing up the N7

    Anyway, getting off topic, the fact is Dublin as a proportion of the population of the country does quite badly in terms of capital spending.

    Now, I am from Limerick, I know the necessity of the M20, I'm not denying that at all, but making this an "us" vs "them" argument will get you nowhere.


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    #40
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,523 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Why you so confused when you agree with what I accuse you of thinking??

    I didn't say what you supposed I said. However if you are asking me how I would rank large infrastructure projects in Ireland, in terms of importance, I'd say:
    1) Dart underground
    2) Metro north
    3) M20
    4) BRT in Cork


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    #41
    Irish_rat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭Irish_rat


    Don't think we should be fighting for which one, in reality all 3 should all be built right now. Each one of them has been put on the backburner by the current government. The longer they leave them the worse it'll get, country is picking up big time and population is increasing rapidly each year.

    To see our motorway network now as good as any other EU country, its phenomenol and something we can be proud of getting done during the boom. But get these 3 done and you really are future proofing the county's infrastructure for a decade or 2 at least.

    The M50 is reaching capacity far too quick though. Also the rail service from Ennis to Galway needs to be culled, a real waste of money upgrading an ancient train alignment when the bus is 20/30 min faster. And to think the rail lobbyists wanted this to go all the way to Sligo, deluded. Anyway that's for another thread but it's an area where costs can be saved.


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    #42
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    cgcsb wrote: »
    I didn't say what you supposed I said. However if you are asking me how I would rank large infrastructure projects in Ireland, in terms of importance, I'd say:
    1) Dart underground
    2) Metro north
    3) M20
    4) BRT in Cork

    So..................... now you've said it

    Improving transport in Dublin sheds minutes off a journey but improving the roads here would shed hours for some.

    There is about the same population living in Munster than there is in the greater Dublin area.

    For what its worth I would be more in favour of an M24 than an M20 to be honest. The M24 would pass through and could link with the M8. This would open the potential linking of Cork Waterford and Limerick instead of just Limerick and Cork.

    Linking Cork and Limerick would link up Shannon with Cork Airport as well as bringing the journey down to about an hour. It is currently about an hour and a half but this is not the actual case as there is gridlock in a couple of towns most notably Buttevant.

    If you currently want to travel from Cork to Donegal it will take 5 and a half hours to travel almost 400KM. If there was a motorway it would take just 3 and a half. Thats 2 hours saved.

    I am not being single minded or thinking (like most) about only what affects me. I am saying that building motorways and linking cities is far more important than saving a commuter about 10 mins in Dublin at similar costs.

    The west of this Country has been ignored for far too long. But I am sure you only care about Dublin and Dublins needs. I mean who cares about the other 3 million right?


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    #43
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Irish_rat wrote: »
    Don't think we should be fighting for which one, in reality all 3 should all be built right now. Each one of them has been put on the backburner by the current government. The longer they leave them the worse it'll get, country is picking up big time and population is increasing rapidly each year.

    To see our motorway network now as good as any other EU country, its phenomenol and something we can be proud of getting done during the boom. But get these 3 done and you really are future proofing the county's infrastructure for a decade or 2 at least.

    The M50 is reaching capacity far too quick though. Also the rail service from Ennis to Galway needs to be culled, a real waste of money upgrading an ancient train alignment when the bus is 20/30 min faster. And to think the rail lobbyists wanted this to go all the way to Sligo, deluded. Anyway that's for another thread but it's an area where costs can be saved.

    What?

    Ok so fair enough we should want it all done but thats not how reality works. It is usually one or the other.

    As for "our motorway network now as good as any other EU country" what a load of codswollop.

    Name 2 Cities (That dont include Dublin) that are connected by a motorway!!

    We make a point about Dublins 1.2 million pop. yet we ignore the fact that Munster also contains about 1.2 million pop.

    Dublin had brilliant infrastructure and it should since its the capital. My gripe is that we ignored the rest of the country for that.

    The western rail corridor is a failed project not because the bus is quicker, it is failed because they didnt upgrade the tracks to allow the train to be quicker and that didnt connect Shannon Airport (not that they would be against that :rolleyes:)

    IMO connecting the M9 to the N81 at around Dunlavin would ease a lot of the pressure on the Nass approach to Dublin. That may not be the best solution but the point is that there are ways of doing this that can be achieved very easily.

    I was reading (dont know if it is still happening) that they want to go ahead with a motorway from Foynes to Limerick......................... Surely using that money to build as much of a motorway on the M20 as possible would be better use of finances?

    Back to the main point Limerick and Galway are the only Cities (not including Dublin) that are ALMOST connected by a motorway.

    Most of Europe have motorways connecting their cities, not just connecting them to and from the capital. So how do we have a motorway network as good as any other EU country??

    Our rail system and our motorway system, in fact our whole transportation network feeds to and from Dublin. If you dont travel to or from Dublin then you might as well be living in Donegal. It is embarrassing not something to be "proud" of.


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    #44
    1huge1
    Registered Users Posts: 6,173 ✭✭✭1huge1


    Name 2 Cities (That dont include Dublin) that are connected by a motorway!!
    Limerick to Galway soon will and already has a significant amount of the way, again I'm not trying to take away from the importance of the M20 being built
    We make a point about Dublins 1.2 million pop. yet we ignore the fact that Munster also contains about 1.2 million pop.

    You cannot seriously think that just because they have the same population that they are a fair comparison?

    Sure, the population of County Dublin (not even taking the commuter belt into account) and Munster have around 1.25million

    But Munster has an area of 24,675 km2

    County Dublin is = 922 km2

    Dublin had brilliant infrastructure and it should since its the capital. My gripe is that we ignored the rest of the country for that.

    On what basis does Dublin have brilliant infrastructure? We seen one crash on the M50 last week literally brought the city to a standstill, hardly up their with the top European capitals (or any for that matter).

    Dublin for its size and percentage of the population is underfunded in terms of capital infrastructure (transport infrastructure in particular).

    Again, that doesn't have to take away from important infrastructure projects outside the capital, (the M20 in particular), but to come up with a nonsense argument that Dublin and Munster are comparable is a bit ridiculous to be honest.


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    #45
    Irish_rat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭Irish_rat


    Mr. H,

    I really don't know what to make of your post. We are about 90km(M20) away from completing our motorway network. There is no need for any more offline builds, the AADT determines this, refer to previous NRA manuals for information. Therefore we have an excellent motorway network. However our national primary roads are poor in contrast. Recognize the difference!

    Dublin has good infrastructure? Have you ever been to the city? First time I've read that. I would say our public transport is one of the worst in the EU. We don't have a railway to the airport which really is an embarrassment at this stage. Rail-lines that don't connect. The M50 got gridlocked for hours last week due to one accident.

    N69 Limerick - Foynes has nothing to do with the M20 now. It is an EU requirement and partly funded to have a high standard road to our main ports. The N28 Cork to Ringaskiddy is the same.

    On your last point, once the M20 is complete we have a continuous motorway to all our cities that require one. Limerick/Cork to Waterford will only ever get Type 2 Dual Carriageway at best as the AADT figures are very low along most of those routes.


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    #46
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,523 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Improving transport in Dublin sheds minutes off a journey but improving the roads here would shed hours for some.

    The M20 is not going to shed hours off anything, it'll reduce the journey time from Cork to Limerick and beyond by about 30 minutes. Metro North, for example would reduce a 45+minute journey to a 20 minute journey, so a 25 minute, or more on a bad day, saving. But you are still not comparing like with like because Swords-Stephen's green area and everywhere in between will serve nearly 100,000 daily commuters. Few people travel the entire length of the N20 every single day and even if they did, there's still less than 40,000 users daily.

    Mr.H wrote: »
    If you currently want to travel from Cork to Donegal it will take 5 and a half hours to travel almost 400KM. If there was a motorway it would take just 3 and a half. Thats 2 hours saved.

    A journey one would rarely, if ever, undertake though.
    Mr.H wrote: »
    I am saying that building motorways and linking cities is far more important than saving a commuter about 10 mins in Dublin at similar costs.

    No it's not when you are talking about saving 10 minutes for 100,000 commuters daily in Dublin as opposed to saving 2 hours on a Cork-Donegal Journey which would hardly ever be taken by anyone.
    Mr.H wrote: »
    The west of this Country has been ignored for far too long. But I am sure you only care about Dublin and Dublins needs. I mean who cares about the other 3 million right?
    3 million people do not live in the west. Again I am in favour of building the M20. In terms of importance, DART Underground is the most important transport project in the state, it'll dramatically improve rail services across Ireland and is needed urgently.


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    #47
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,968 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Folks,

    This is a REGIONAL forum focusing on Limerick, this isn't a Dublin forum, a Cork forum, a Motors forum, a Public Transport forum or an Infrastructure forum, if you want to discuss any of those topics in detail please find the right forum, if you want to discuss all things Limerick please feel free to stay here.


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    #48
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    cgcsb wrote: »
    The M20 is not going to shed hours off anything, it'll reduce the journey time from Cork to Limerick and beyond by about 30 minutes. Metro North, for example would reduce a 45+minute journey to a 20 minute journey, so a 25 minute, or more on a bad day, saving. But you are still not comparing like with like because Swords-Stephen's green area and everywhere in between will serve nearly 100,000 daily commuters. Few people travel the entire length of the N20 every single day and even if they did, there's still less than 40,000 users daily.

    The M20 doesnt just affect Cork to Limerick. It affects Cork to Galway potentially. That is the point. It connects two Airports also.

    cgcsb wrote: »
    No it's not when you are talking about saving 10 minutes for 100,000 commuters daily in Dublin as opposed to saving 2 hours on a Cork-Donegal Journey which would hardly ever be taken by anyone.

    Not just commuters but other roads users such as logistics and transportation would be affected by a major road improvement along the west

    cgcsb wrote: »
    3 million people do not live in the west. Again I am in favour of building the M20. In terms of importance, DART Underground is the most important transport project in the state, it'll dramatically improve rail services across Ireland and is needed urgently.

    The Dart underground improves the rail services across Ireland????????????

    You cant get a train from Limerick to Waterford on a sunday unless you bypass Kildare.

    The Dart Underground will improve rail services in Dublin and Dublin alone.

    Not against works n Dublin I just think the rest of the country and Limerick need upgrading in infrastructure such as the M20.

    The M20 would be beneficial to Limerick. But I cant see it happening anytime soon


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    #49
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,523 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Mr.H wrote: »
    The M20 doesnt just affect Cork to Limerick. It affects Cork to Galway potentially. That is the point. It connects two Airports also.

    Yes as I said, it takes about 30 mins of a journey between Cork and Limerick, and beyond.
    Mr.H wrote: »
    The Dart underground improves the rail services across Ireland????????????

    Yes the capacity freed up by DART underground will free up buckets of capacity on the InterCity network. Dublin-Cork trains could double their frequency for example which means far more frequent Cork-Limerick and Cork-Tralee connections

    It also opens up the possibility, pending electrification, of direct services from Belfast to Cork or cork to Dublin Airport.
    Mr.H wrote: »
    You cant get a train from Limerick to Waterford on a sunday unless you bypass Kildare.

    much of our railways are deliberately neglected, this should of course be tackled with proper investment.


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    #50
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,523 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Clareman wrote: »
    Folks,

    This is a REGIONAL forum focusing on Limerick, this isn't a Dublin forum, a Cork forum, a Motors forum, a Public Transport forum or an Infrastructure forum, if you want to discuss any of those topics in detail please find the right forum, if you want to discuss all things Limerick please feel free to stay here.

    The topic in question, the M20, is not a Limerick only subject though, as a project it is of national importance, is it not? Perhaps it's in the wrong forum and should instead be in the infrastructure forum? Just a suggestion.


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    #51
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,968 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    cgcsb wrote: »
    The topic in question, the M20, is not a Limerick only subject though, as a project it is of national importance, is it not? Perhaps it's in the wrong forum and should instead be in the infrastructure forum? Just a suggestion.

    I can't say I'm a fan of debating mod decisions/warnings on thread, but there is some merit for a local discussion on this so there's no need to move the entire thread (once people stick to the regional aspect), if people want to discuss the larger impact they are more than welcome to find the correct forum.


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    #52
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    If there were good infrastructure links between the cities then the it's very likely that Galway, Limerick and Cork would not be small regional cities with populations a long way off those of the capital.

    The unfortunate reality is that our thinking when it comes to national planning has been all wrong however. You don't build infrastructure such as motorways to simply serve existing populations. You build it to direct the development of the country in the most sensible and beneficial way for everybody. We have not been doing that.

    I have no doubt that Galway, Limerick and Cork would be radically different cities with much larger economies and populations than they currently have if the infrastructure has been developed with that in mind. This, of course, would be as good for Dublin as it would be for the other cities. The current situation where the small cities stagnate or don't reach their potential and the single big city overheats isn't really good for anybody.


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    #53
    power101
    Registered Users Posts: 300 ✭✭power101


    cgcsb wrote: »
    The M20 is not going to shed hours off anything, it'll reduce the journey time from Cork to Limerick and beyond by about 30 minutes. Metro North, for example would reduce a 45+minute journey to a 20 minute journey, so a 25 minute, or more on a bad day, saving. But you are still not comparing like with like because Swords-Stephen's green area and everywhere in between will serve nearly 100,000 daily commuters. Few people travel the entire length of the N20 every single day and even if they did, there's still less than 40,000 users daily.

    30 minutes saving?! The current travel time takes 1 hour 45 to 2 hours generally with longer times when you're stuck behind a tractor or any other slow moving vehicle. If its a motorway between Limerick and Cork it will take between 50-55min at 120kmph. The distance is 100km at the moment or a straight 86km. That's 50min if the motorway is 100km or 43min if straight. 50-55min covers that. That's a saving of a solid hour in traveling or roughly 50% in travel time between two major regions in Ireland.


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    #54
    Mc Love
    Registered Users Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    This seems sort of like the right thread for this but does anyone know why access to the M20 from the M7/N18 is closed this weekend?


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    #55
    bazz26
    Registered Users Posts: 51,243 ✭✭✭✭bazz26


    They have traffic cones up on the lane that goes under the overpass all week. Could be doing some maintenance work to the overpass?


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    #56
    One_More_Mile
    Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭One_More_Mile


    Limerick to clonakilty today, 3 pm set off. 6 35 set down.
    That road is nothing short of a disgrace (rain & friday evening traffic permitting).
    Typical dragging their arse irish attitude in buttevant- must be doing that 200 meter stretch of road for 7 or 8 months now.


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    #57
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,409 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    One_More_Mile wrote: »
    Limerick to clonakilty today, 3 pm set off. 6 35 set down.
    That road is nothing short of a disgrace (rain & friday evening traffic permitting).
    Typical dragging their arse irish attitude in buttevant- must be doing that 200 meter stretch of road for 7 or 8 months now.

    I have done Limerick to Rosscarbery recently in Friday rush hour traffic in 2hr 40. Instead of using the N20 from Cork you can use the N24, R513 & M8. This will also bring you directly onto the South Ring so you can get off at the Bandon Road Roundabout and head down the N71.


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    #58
    bazz26
    Registered Users Posts: 51,243 ✭✭✭✭bazz26


    I just don't use the N20 anymore either - bottleneck at Charleville and Buttervant, no thanks. I go via Mitchelstown and M8 toll. I know the R513 isn't a great road either but at least you are always moving and once you hit the M8 after Mitchelstown your laughing. If you don't fancy the R513 then there is always the N24 to Cahir and then join the M8, takes a bit longer though and getting stuck in Tipp town is no fun either.


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    #59
    Mc Love
    Registered Users Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    bazz26 wrote: »
    I just don't use the N20 anymore either - bottleneck at Charleville and Buttervant, no thanks. I go via Mitchelstown and M8 toll. I know the R513 isn't a great road either but at least you are always moving and once you hit the M8 after Mitchelstown your laughing. If you don't fancy the R513 then there is always the N24 to Cahir and then join the M8, takes a bit longer though and getting stuck in Tipp town is no fun either.

    With the amount of traffic on the R513 - its nearly a national road


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    #60
    jaxxx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,230 ✭✭✭jaxxx


    Well I dunno about you guys and gals.... but I certainly have NOT heard any arguments here whatsoever that warrants at least a duel carriageway to Cork for the west/mid of the country.....

    *WARNING - sarcasm detected*


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    #61
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,317 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Driving home from Cork yesterday, thinking that it was off peak I decided to try Buttevant again, it was a huge mistake. I passed Newtwopothouse ar 17:07. I was still queuing at the traffic lights in Buttevant 30 mins later. It took 40 mins in total to drive between my usual entry & exit diversion points on the N20. The diversion usually takes no more than 18mins


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