M20 Limerick to Cork

cgcsb

Mr.H wrote: »

I am not talking about the rest of the country having bad public transport during a match. I am talking about EVERY day.

And every day there are serious delays on DART and commuter Rail services owing to signal faults on a 40 year old signal system. Everyday Dublin Bus experiences extensive delays due to pinch points, it's a problem that affects us too. Your notion of Dublin having a 'world class transport system' while the rest of the state has diddly squat is simply untrue.

Mr.H wrote: »

Compared to what the rest of the country got??

Yes compared to the rest of country, why upgrade a lightly trafficked road in Wexford to a full motorway standard including an expensive new bridge when much busier transport corridors are operating above safe capacity e.g. The N20 or Maynooth Cummuter services.

Mr.H wrote: »

Im sorry if I sound naive but I didnt see anything on that list nationally that will have any real change.

exactly the money is being spent on non critical projects just for the sake of geographic spread. It's an election strategy.

Mr.H wrote: »

You sound like you have never been to Waterford my friend. You would be lucky to get a bus anywhere.

Waterford is not comparable to Dublin though which was the point I was making. Dublin has the worst public transport system of any SIMILAR SIZED European City. Waterford is large port town.

Mr.H wrote: »

Austria have twice our pop but marginally bigger land. Vienna, Graz, Linz, Salzburg, Innsbruck and Klagenfurt.

Denmark is closer to our pop size but has half our land size. Copenhagen, Aarhus, Odense, Aalborg and Frederiksberg (technically considered part of Copenhagen but it is the Kildare of Denmark).

And Ireland has Cork, Limerick and Galway. My point being that these are small states with just one large City and some smaller urban areas, Graz for example is Cork sized. There's nothing wrong with that. Having one large City gives Ireland a market of scale that wouldn't otherwise exist.

The reason why Cork, Galway and Limerick are small is because of bad planning within your own councils, more people live in rural Galway than Galway City. This is cultural and ultimately it's because we are a backward rural people. More than 40% of our population live in rural areas compared to 90%+ Urban in most western European States, Only the likes of Portugal has a similar rural/urban divide.

Mr.H wrote: »

I really dont want this to be Dublin vs the rest of the country.

Well then stop coming out with silly, blatantly untrue, statements about Dublin getting all the investment. Dublin receives well below it's fair share of investment relative to tax take, GDP produced and spend per head of population.

Mr.H wrote: »

It is not in anyway good policy for EVERY transport change in the country to impact Dublin. I.e; if we upgrade the track from Dublin to Cork it will help Limerick also.......................... why not upgrade the track from Limerick to the Junction

because it would be of benefit to less people and would have a smaller return on investment.

Mr.H wrote: »

Or how about upgrading tracks from Waterford to Limerick Junc?

Lack of demand

Mr.H wrote: »

How about lay some tracks for direct trains from Limerick to cork??

The tracks are already in place in fact IÉ used to run direct Cork-Limerick trains but stopped, not sure why. Trains coming from the Cork direction can turn left onto the limerick branch.

Mr.H wrote: »

Have you ever driven that road?

You would be lucky to make it within 3 hours to be honest and thats at non peak times.

They started road works in a village called Buttevent about 3 or so years ago (at least thats when i first noticed it) and it has been an ongoing nightmare ever since.

AA and google give it about 90 mins.

davo2001

Question for cgcsb..

Have you actually ever driven the road in question or has it ever affected you?

cgcsb

no

davo2001

cgcsb wrote: »

no

Yeah, I thought as much based on your comments, thanks for clarifying.

zulutango

cgcsb wrote: »

The reason why Cork, Galway and Limerick are small is because of bad planning within your own councils, more people live in rural Galway than Galway City. This is cultural and ultimately it's because we are a backward rural people. More than 40% of our population live in rural areas compared to 90%+ Urban in most western European States, Only the likes of Portugal has a similar rural/urban divide.

It's bad national planning, to be fair.

Mr.H

cgcsb wrote: »

And every day there are serious delays on DART and commuter Rail services owing to signal faults on a 40 year old signal system. Everyday Dublin Bus experiences extensive delays due to pinch points, it's a problem that affects us too. Your notion of Dublin having a 'world class transport system' while the rest of the state has diddly squat is simply untrue.

extensive delays are minor in Dublin. I have spent time in Dublin among Limerick and Waterford, unlike you who has by the sounds of it spent very little time outside the Capital

cgcsb wrote: »

Yes compared to the rest of country, why upgrade a lightly trafficked road in Wexford to a full motorway standard including an expensive new bridge when much busier transport corridors are operating above safe capacity e.g. The N20 or Maynooth Cummuter services.

Let me ask you. Where is the motorway in Wexford going to lead to??

DUBLIN

I agree that it is not important but I think it is about linking the port in Rosslare more than Wexford itself and if I am not mistaken its an EU thing rather than Irish.

cgcsb wrote: »

exactly the money is being spent on non critical projects just for the sake of geographic spread. It's an election strategy.

Yes I agree. Facilitating Dublin gets more votes than the rest of the country

cgcsb wrote: »

Waterford is not comparable to Dublin though which was the point I was making. Dublin has the worst public transport system of any SIMILAR SIZED European City. Waterford is large port town.

Waterford is a city as is Kilkenny

Been to a lot of Cities throughout Europe and Australia and I have to say The transport in Dublin is not as bad as you are making out. It could very well be upgraded but it is already very comparable with the likes of Amsterdam and Brussels. Let alone Sydney and Brisbane.

cgcsb wrote: »

And Ireland has Cork, Limerick and Galway. My point being that these are small states with just one large City and some smaller urban areas, Graz for example is Cork sized. There's nothing wrong with that. Having one large City gives Ireland a market of scale that wouldn't otherwise exist.

The reason why Cork, Galway and Limerick are small is because of bad planning within your own councils, more people live in rural Galway than Galway City. This is cultural and ultimately it's because we are a backward rural people. More than 40% of our population live in rural areas compared to 90%+ Urban in most western European States, Only the likes of Portugal has a similar rural/urban divide.

The reason why Cork Limerick and Galway are small is due to limited control over their own planning.

I am not talking about small urban areas I am saying that comparable sized countries have wider population spread and dont just focus on the capital.

Spain, America, England, Scotland, Germany, Italy, France and Australia to name very few countries who have a policy of building up non capital cities.

Comparing our size you have the likes of Belgium, Holland and Iceland who have built their very reputations on expanding non capital cities.

cgcsb wrote: »

Well then stop coming out with silly, blatantly untrue, statements about Dublin getting all the investment. Dublin receives well below it's fair share of investment relative to tax take, GDP produced and spend per head of population.

Untrue

Again look at the needless motorway in Wexford for example. It benefits Dublin. Look at the track improvements on the Dublin to Cork route............... again benefits Dublin.

cgcsb wrote: »

because it would be of benefit to less people and would have a smaller return on investment.

Lack of demand

Supply and demand swings both ways

Without supply the demand will not be there. People will always go to where the resources lie.

For example open a factory with 1000 jobs in Mayo and you will get a lot of people moving to Mayo. They wont not go just because its Mayo.

cgcsb wrote: »

The tracks are already in place in fact IÉ used to run direct Cork-Limerick trains but stopped, not sure why. Trains coming from the Cork direction can turn left onto the limerick branch.

The tracks are old and dangerous. They needed to be replaced but decided to upgrade the tracks to Dublin instead.

cgcsb wrote: »

AA and google give it about 90 mins.

They are both wrong

Insect Overlord

cgcsb wrote: »

AA and google give it about 90 mins.

Best case scenario, in good weather, driving early in the morning or late at night when there's no other traffic on the road, not getting held up at the roadworks in Buttevant, not getting stuck behind a campervan/tractor/haulage vehicle or some eejit doing 60 km/h in the 80/100 zones, and hitting every green light on the way into the city centre.

Mr.H

An File wrote: »

Best case scenario, in good weather, driving early in the morning or late at night when there's no other traffic on the road, not getting held up at the roadworks in Buttevant, not getting stuck behind a campervan/tractor/haulage vehicle or some eejit doing 60 km/h in the 80/100 zones, and hitting every green light on the way into the city centre.

We cant accuse Google of not being optimistic

cgcsb

davo2001 wrote: »

Yeah, I thought as much based on your comments, thanks for clarifying.

I am in support of building the M20 as planned, so you probably thought wrong.

Mr.H

cgcsb wrote: »

I am in support of building the M20 as planned, so you probably thought wrong.

The politician stance..................... "I am in favour of this of course"*



*but its very low on the list of priorities


For what its worth I would sell the naming rights of the road to major corporations in return for funding the road. For example call it the Sony M20?

Same could be done for works nationwide including Dublin

cgcsb

Mr.H wrote: »

extensive delays are minor in Dublin. I have spent time in Dublin among Limerick and Waterford, unlike you who has by the sounds of it spent very little time outside the Capital

I disagree, try any bus routes to the south west of the city or the Blanchardstown routes, completely unreliable with journey times exceeding an hour.

Mr.H wrote: »

Let me ask you. Where is the motorway in Wexford going to lead to??

DUBLIN

Well no not really, it's mostly an east west route connecting Waterford City and Enniscorthy both of which already have good road links to Dublin. The project it's self does nothing for transport in Dublin, it might bring the residence of New Ross slightly closer to the capital though but that's about it.

It's certainly not a priority project right now considering that DART underground's planning will now have to be done allover again due to bumbling inaction.

Mr.H wrote: »

Yes I agree. Facilitating Dublin gets more votes than the rest of the country

In theory that might be true, but FG is a rural party they are investing in their own constituencies with public money.

Mr.H wrote: »

Been to a lot of Cities throughout Europe and Australia and I have to say The transport in Dublin is not as bad as you are making out. It could very well be upgraded but it is already very comparable with the likes of Amsterdam and Brussels. Let alone Sydney and Brisbane.

Amsterdam and Brussels are about Dublin's size and have a complete network of metro and tram lines along all major radial routes and orbital routes complimented by massive electrified suburban rail systems and unrivaled quality cycling facilities. Dublin is 40 years behind them at least. In Dublin unreliable, low capacity, double decker buses are the only option on the majority of radial routes in Dublin, this is because of a lack of investment in high capacity rail based solutions.

Sydney and Brisbane are Australian cities, there is no value in using them as a comparison, they are low density and built in the 20th century, on the basis of limitless oil and limitless road capacity.

Mr.H wrote: »

The reason why Cork Limerick and Galway are small is due to limited control over their own planning.

They have EXACTLY the same authority over their own planning as Dublin City Council.

Mr.H wrote: »

I am not talking about small urban areas I am saying that comparable sized countries have wider population spread and dont just focus on the capital.

Eh you'd be wrong then because clearly the likes of Austria and Denmark have exactly the same situation, one large City and a smattering of smaller ones less than half the size of the capital. Ireland dos not focus on it's capital either, case and point being the recent capital spending plan which will see more money going into rural broadband schemes than any DART or Metro based projects.

Mr.H wrote: »

Spain, America, England, Scotland, Germany, Italy, France and Australia to name very few countries who have a policy of building up non capital cities.

non of those countries have such a policy they just allocate structural funds where they are needed most.

Mr.H wrote: »

Comparing our size you have the likes of Belgium, Holland and Iceland who have built their very reputations on expanding non capital cities.

Iceland only has one City.

Mr.H wrote: »

Again look at the needless motorway in Wexford for example. It benefits Dublin. Look at the track improvements on the Dublin to Cork route............... again benefits Dublin.

You're obsessed, Cork and Dublin are by far and away the most important Cities economically to this state, having higher speed rail connection between them benefits EVERYONE in this state. It's a bonus that Limerick and Kerry get faster services to BOTH Cork and Dublin as a result. Everybody wins. Arguing that the money would be better spent improving connections between Waterford and Limerick is a nonsense, the return on investment is just not there.

Mr.H wrote: »

The tracks are old and dangerous. They needed to be replaced but decided to upgrade the tracks to Dublin instead.

Investment in railways in Ireland has been a firefighting exercise since the foundation of the State, most of the investment thus far has been to simply to maintain the same service we had in 1985. As a result investment must be targeted at the most heavily used sections, it's triage rather than expansionism.

cgcsb

Mr.H wrote: »

The politician stance..................... "I am in favour of this of course"*



*but its very low on the list of priorities

I would but the M20 third nationally in a list of major infrastructure projects long overdue. 3rd is pretty high.

zulutango

cgcsb wrote: »

You're obsessed, Cork and Dublin are by far and away the most important Cities economically to this state, having higher speed rail connection between them benefits EVERYONE in this state. It's a bonus that Limerick and Kerry get faster services to BOTH Cork and Dublin as a result. Everybody wins. Arguing that the money would be better spent improving connections between Waterford and Limerick is a nonsense, the return on investment is just not there.

Major capital infrastructure should not be built to cater for an existing need. That is very short sighted and frankly backward thinking. One eye should be kept on the potential long term benefits. It's arguable that the Cork-Limerick economic axis could start to match that of the Dublin metro region over the next few decades if the right infrastructure was put in place. This, by the way, would be good for Dublin too.

Mr.H

cgcsb wrote: »

I would but the M20 third nationally in a list of major infrastructure projects long overdue. 3rd is pretty high.

How can you make such a claim without any real knowledge or experience of how the road is actually operating currently?

Im guessing you dont know the figures of road users per day and the actual driving time. (Im asking if you know figures as you said you have never driven the road but maybe you have seen figures?)

So your claim would be on a guess that other projects would affect more people.

For example would more people be affected daily by Dublin underground than the M20?

cgcsb

zulutango wrote: »

Major capital infrastructure should not be built to cater for an existing need. That is very short sighted and frankly backward thinking. One eye should be kept on the potential long term benefits. It's arguable that the Cork-Limerick economic axis could start to match that of the Dublin metro region over the next few decades if the right infrastructure was put in place. This, by the way, would be good for Dublin too.

That's great but the point about improving rail connections would ALSO benefit people travelling Limerick-Cork.

I take your point about building things that may be needed in the future but frankly in Ireland building infrastructure is a firefighting exercise. We build things that were needed 40 years ago. It'd be nice to catch up to 2015 but skipping ahead and splashing out on non essentials at this point is reckless. Even if we elected a pro infrastructure government in 2016 and kept them in, it'd be decades before we're caught up with the rest of the western world.

We're still depositing raw sewage into the environment and freeze drying children in prefab hedge schools, not to mention that the required new roads and rail were drawn up as long as 40 years ago.

cgcsb

Mr.H wrote: »

How can you make such a claim without any real knowledge or experience of how the road is actually operating currently?

Im guessing you dont know the figures of road users per day and the actual driving time. (Im asking if you know figures as you said you have never driven the road but maybe you have seen figures?)

So your claim would be on a guess that other projects would affect more people.

For example would more people be affected daily by Dublin underground than the M20?

The AADT for the N20 north of Buttevant is 9905. No doubt people are using alternative routes to travel between Cork and Limerick so lets assume the M20 would provide service for 15,000 AADT.

DART undergound for example would facilitate 108,000 daily liffey crossings.

Metro North is projected to carry 180,000 passengers per day.

So these 2 projects are clearly more of a priority and are in a different league of urgency.

Mr.H

cgcsb wrote: »

The AADT for the N20 north of Buttevant is 9905. No doubt people are using alternative routes to travel between Cork and Limerick so lets assume the M20 would provide service for 15,000 AADT.

DART undergound for example would facilitate 108,000 daily liffey crossings.

Metro North is projected to carry 180,000 passengers per day.

So these 2 projects are clearly more of a priority and are in a different league of urgency.

Are those numbers accurate? I thought I read somewhere (its been awhile since I was looking at the figures as part of a project) that the numbers where closer to 30,000 in some parts of the N21 and that was figures based on number of vehicle's meaning an average of 5 people per vehicle (based on higher capacity vehicles such as buses and single person cars). That is 150,000 users per day on average on some parts of that road.

Then of course you have the scope for increased usage that comes with building such a road. Businesses setting up along the motorway and such.

Thats why people say that this road is not just a minor issue.

For instance in the city all the Dart underground was doing was linking Heuston with st stephens green............. ffs you can get a luas to o'connell and walk across the bridge it takes 5 mins. It then goes onto spencer dock.................. which again is already connected to Heuston via the red line. This was to cost at least 4 billion (VS 800 million for the M20) for something that is already connected. There is no way that saving people from a 5 min walk across a bridge is more important than a motorway connecting 2 cities


Here is a really good article actually talking about the merits of the Dart Underground and Metro north, and why they are NOT needed http://www.herald.ie/opinion/columnists/dan-white/dan-white-its-time-to-bury-the-dart-underground-plan-permanently-31432860.html

cgcsb

Mr H, I'll respond to the above points but first what are you trying to argue exactly? You are hardly arguing that the M20 is more important than the 2 big Dublin rail projects in terms of numbers? seriously? don't embarrass yourself. The M20 is a great project, I'd argue it's the third most important transport project in the state. But let's not exaggerate things when it's merits are clear anyway.

Mr.H wrote: »

Are those numbers accurate?

According to the NRA yes they are.

Mr.H wrote: »

I thought I read somewhere (its been awhile since I was looking at the figures as part of a project) that the numbers where closer to 30,000 in some parts of the N21 and that was figures based on number of vehicle's meaning an average of 5 people per vehicle (based on higher capacity vehicles such as buses and single person cars). That is 150,000 users per day on average on some parts of that road.

You don't have the correct figures. The busiest section of the road is the Cork City end which has about 22,00 AADT. And the average vehicle occupancy is not 5 persons or anything like :rolleyes:

Mr.H wrote: »

Then of course you have the scope for increased usage that comes with building such a road. Businesses setting up along the motorway and such.

Such ribbon development is prohibited alongside motorways for a very good reason and such development is the number 1 symptom of Ireland's bad planning.

Mr.H wrote: »

For instance in the city all the Dart underground was doing was linking Heuston with st stephens green............. ffs you can get a luas to o'connell and walk across the bridge it takes 5 mins. It then goes onto spencer dock.................. which again is already connected to Heuston via the red line. This was to cost at least 4 billion (VS 800 million for the M20) for something that is already connected. There is no way that saving people from a 5 min walk across a bridge is more important than a motorway connecting 2 cities

This is almost too stupid to be taken seriously. If you don't understand the DART underground project why would you post about it pretending you understand it? It's purpose is not simply to deliver passengers to Stephen's Green. :rolleyes: look it up honestly information is free these days.

DART Underground is head and shoulders the most important transport project in the state. Others are important but this delivers the most benefits to the most people, there ain't any disputing that.

Mr.H wrote: »

Here is a really good article actually talking about the merits of the Dart Underground and Metro north, and why they are NOT needed http://www.herald.ie/opinion/columnists/dan-white/dan-white-its-time-to-bury-the-dart-underground-plan-permanently-31432860.html

A stupid tabloid article by a stupid man who opposed luas on the basis that he predicted it'd be empty most days is just stupid and it's not a 'good article' about anything bar the dangers of the public paying too much heed to a bar stool rant from an uneducated halfwit.

Special Circumstances

Meee owwww

Yikes.


Ain't no party like an infrastructure enthusiasts party wha?

Mr.H

4 Billion buddy to connect two train stations that are already connected. That's the Dart underground.

But yea that's way more vital than a silly motorways

cgcsb

Mr.H wrote: »

4 Billion buddy to connect two train stations that are already connected. That's the Dart underground.

What two train stations does it connect?

cgcsb

Limerick and Cork are already connected by road and rail, no need for the M20 so :-)

Mr.H

cgcsb wrote: »

What two train stations does it connect?

Connelly and Hueston?

If that's the whole point of the underground I would actually be firmly against it.

Apparently some top engineer (they are talking about him on the irishrail forum) says it would cost at least double that 4 billion to excavate that length of tunnel in Dublin city center.

Mr.H

cgcsb wrote: »

Limerick and Cork are already connected by road and rail, no need for the M20 so :-)

Yea 4/8 billion compared to 800 million.........

Mr.H

So truce on the Dublin vs Rest of the country rubbish?

Its boring pointless and taking up a lot of this thread.


Back to The M20

How do people feel about motorways in general and bypassing small towns such as lets say Buttevent?

Lets say there is a motorway and we never have to travel through Buttevent. Some of us who might stop at some shop for a hot chicken roll might not stop now if we have the option to bypass altogether.

Remember pre M7? Borris was the stop of choice. I wonder how much business Borris lost due to the motorway?

johnnyryan89

Mr.H wrote: »

So truce on the Dublin vs Rest of the country rubbish?

Its boring pointless and taking up a lot of this thread.


Back to The M20

How do people feel about motorways in general and bypassing small towns such as lets say Buttevent?

Lets say there is a motorway and we never have to travel through Buttevent. Some of us who might stop at some shop for a hot chicken roll might not stop now if we have the option to bypass altogether.

Remember pre M7? Borris was the stop of choice. I wonder how much business Borris lost due to the motorway?

I think if the grub is decent then some people would stop off still. Anytime I go to Dublin I still stop off at Mountrath for something to eat.

Mr.H

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

I think if the grub is decent then some people would stop off still. Anytime I go to Dublin I still stop off at Mountrath for something to eat.

I say this stuff and I am completely guilty of it myself. I stop at Kildare village for a walk about.

I will never know what the food is like in Borris anymore for good or bad (they have a great petrol station there as well as far as i remember.

So while a motorway would be amazing for the city economies it may damage small business along the way. Maybe the likes of Charlvile will become ghost towns as a result??

zulutango

Mr.H wrote: »

How do people feel about motorways in general and bypassing small towns such as lets say Buttevent?

Lets say there is a motorway and we never have to travel through Buttevent. Some of us who might stop at some shop for a hot chicken roll might not stop now if we have the option to bypass altogether.

I think Ireland must urbanise if it is to thrive as a nation and motorways are about connecting urban populations. That's why the M20 is so important.

I'm not sure we should really be too concerned about these small towns and villages. We certainly shouldn't be forcing people into them anyway. If they have something to offer, then great, let them take advantage of that. Otherwise, let's plough on and develop well managed, sustainable population centres.

Silentcorner

Actually towns like Charleville and Mallow should thrive, they will be 15mins and 30mins from Limerick and 35mins and 15mins from Cork, people will choose to live in these towns and commute, the smaller towns will suffer to a degree....but the country needs to move away from the parochial viewpoint from a planning point of view, and quickly!

Cookiemunster

Mr.H wrote: »

I say this stuff and I am completely guilty of it myself. I stop at Kildare village for a walk about.

I will never know what the food is like in Borris anymore for good or bad (they have a great petrol station there as well as far as i remember.

So while a motorway would be amazing for the city economies it may damage small business along the way. Maybe the likes of Charlvile will become ghost towns as a result??

Without huge amounts of traffic clogging the main street, these towns and villages will be a much safer and nicer place to live place for the residents. Most already bypassed towns and villages are better off since the traffic left.