M20 Limerick to Cork

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Without huge amounts of traffic clogging the main street, these towns and villages will be a much safer and nicer place to live place for the residents. Most already bypassed towns and villages are better off since the traffic left.

Every town is different, of course, but there are plenty of studies showing that bypassing gridlocked towns has a net economic benefit for them. It's the very same with pedestrianising streets. They lead to increased footfall (if done right) as they become more attractive spaces to spend time in.

grenache

Mr.H wrote: »

Back to The M20

How do people feel about motorways in general and bypassing small towns such as lets say Buttevent?

Lets say there is a motorway and we never have to travel through Buttevent. Some of us who might stop at some shop for a hot chicken roll might not stop now if we have the option to bypass

Don't be silly, NOBODY of sound mind stops in Buttevant for chicken rolls

It is bad enough having to just go through the most depressingly awful village in the first place, without stopping for chicken rolls. The sooner these roadworks are completed the better.

The sign on the way in says "Welcome to Medieval Buttevant" - and its fcuking medieval in more ways than one.

Special Circumstances

grenache wrote: »

Don't be silly, NOBODY of sound mind stops in Buttevant for chicken rolls

It is bad enough having to just go through the most depressingly awful village in the first place, without stopping for chicken rolls. The sooner these roadworks are completed the better.

The sign on the way in says "Welcome to Medieval Buttevant" - and its fcuking medieval in more ways than one.

I play banjo music loudly in an attempt to blend in with the natives.

I alternate between "You can NEVER go back home"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-znw35eCkg

and
"I've been here 10000 years, and I'll be here 10000 more"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8bCFJ22l1o

jgbyr

And all this village bashing is relevant how?

Mc Love

I never stop in the villages unless i had to which to date has been never on the way to Dublin. Might stop in J14 on the way down though.

cgcsb

Mr.H wrote: »

Connelly and Hueston?

Incorrect, here's a map:



As you can see DART Underground's primary purpose is to provide a bypass for Connolly which is over capacity at the moment and provide a bypass for Heuston's terminal platforms. The result being a far more frequent service on all most of the rail routes in Ireland.

Mr.H wrote: »

Apparently some top engineer (they are talking about him on the irishrail forum) says it would cost at least double that 4 billion to excavate that length of tunnel in Dublin city center.

No, the tunnel will cost about €2bn, The €4bn price tag comes from the tunnel + electrification to Maynooth and Hazelhatch, Buying a lot more DART trains, construction of a new depot, station construction, park and ride facilities and a generous contingency.

cgcsb

Mr.H wrote: »

Yea 4/8 billion compared to 800 million.........

DARTu delivers more benefits to more people than the M20 which is why it's more important.

cgcsb

Mr.H wrote: »

So truce on the Dublin vs Rest of the country rubbish?

Its boring pointless and taking up a lot of this thread.

Agreed, I never took issue with the M20, I took issue with the ridiculous notion that it isn't being built because of Dublin centrism and I took issue with the notion that it is the most important transport project in the state. That's all. But I gather you are willing to accept defeat on those points.

zulutango

cgcsb wrote: »

DARTu delivers more benefits to more people than the M20 which is why it's more important.

Very flawed reasoning when investing in major capital projects.

power101

Comment by the transport minister on the M20 saying it's too expensive. It was needed 10 years ago and is cheaper to build now than it was then! If FG stay in power we won't have it for decades.

The poll at the bottom of the article is telling

Does Limerick to Cork need a motorway?

Yes 94% 12602
No 6% 761

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cork-limerick-motorway-plan-too-expensive-says-transport-minister-paschal-donohoe-374111.html

Todd Toddington III

Well there is an election coming up, time to petition those canvassing for reelection to finance the road. I'm not expecting it to be built in one foul swoop but a 20 to 30km section to start with would be nice. 3 sections at 300million each over a few years, even ppp one of the sections to save some cash as most motorways have 1 or 2 tolled portions would do me.

Mr.H

cgcsb wrote: »

Agreed, I never took issue with the M20, I took issue with the ridiculous notion that it isn't being built because of Dublin centrism and I took issue with the notion that it is the most important transport project in the state. That's all. But I gather you are willing to accept defeat on those points.

Not accepting defeat at all. I am merely pointing out that all the points for and against this debate - "M20 vs the unneeded and already connected lines in Dublin" and that neither side of the debate seem willing to go "yea your right my views have been changed"......................

Therefore there is little point in continuing the debate. Not enough hours in the day to work and repeat ourselves (I am sure you agree).

At the moment if I want to fly to Sydney I fly Shannon to London to Singapore to Sydney............... Sure they could invest in an aircraft that could fly Shannon to Sydney direct but is it really needed when the connection already exists? It doesnt matter where point A and point C are. We are talking about connecting them both and bypassing point B. We just disagree on whether we should look at national infrastructure or local (which Dublin is. Its nothing to do with the national rail line. How is this going to make the rail in Munster any more efficient?)

But alas dont get sucked back into this debate as its dried up I think we all agree. Let my little snippet as a mere thinking out loud. I know you dont agree and that fine. Its cool in fact. Hopefully one day we both get what we want.

rebs23

cgcsb wrote: »

DARTu delivers more benefits to more people than the M20 which is why it's more important.

Depends on what you mean by more benefit to more people. Is it economic benefit to the whole of the country or is it simply convenience?
It could be argued that creating a counterpole to the congested Dublin region provides more competitive and economic benefits to the whole of the country than simply centralising all infrastructural spending in one region.
When you also consider our export lead recovery you would probably find that Cork and the Mid West and industries located there have played a very significant part in that recovery.
In relation to more people benefiting from Dart underground there are 520,000 people living in Cork and 190,000 living in Limerick.
At the moment there is simply no properly functioning transport links between two regions with a considerable population base and economies.
No direct rail link and a road that is simply dangerous and inefficient. A journey that should take 50 minutes takes 1.5 hours and it simply unacceptable that this will remain the case for the next 10 years?
Many companies in Cork have bases in Limerick and Galway and vice a versa. Some include Dell, Boston Scientific, Johnson & Johnson, Pfizer, Apple (soon) all of them are consistently complaining about the connectivity between their operations in Ireland due to the state of the current N20.
If Government is serious about providing the infrastructure for the whole of the country and if we are serious about balanced regional development then the M20 should be a priority. Much more than a huge mega rail project in Dublin which would not provide the same economic return to the country.

cgcsb

Mr.H wrote: »

At the moment if I want to fly to Sydney I fly Shannon to London to Singapore to Sydney............... Sure they could invest in an aircraft that could fly Shannon to Sydney direct but is it really needed when the connection already exists? It doesnt matter where point A and point C are. We are talking about connecting them both and bypassing point B. We just disagree on whether we should look at national infrastructure or local (which Dublin is. Its nothing to do with the national rail line. How is this going to make the rail in Munster any more efficient?)

The point of DART U isn't adding more areas to the network it's adding capacity in order to serve the existing connections which we don't have.

Regarding Munster, the net effect is that Dublin Commuter trains will be then separated from the rest meaning that all intercity services(with the exception of Belfast) can operate on a higher frequency and deliver faster journey times. The project would also provide some of the required electrification works for future high speed rail services between Dublin and Cork.

Mr.H wrote: »

But alas dont get sucked back into this debate as its dried up I think we all agree.

you are the one who dragged it up months later :rolleyes:

cgcsb

rebs23 wrote: »

Depends on what you mean by more benefit to more people. Is it economic benefit to the whole of the country or is it simply convenience?

Convenience, in terms of reduced commuting times is an economic benefit and is the primary economic benefit of transport projects.

rebs23 wrote: »

It could be argued that creating a counterpole to the congested Dublin region provides more competitive and economic benefits to the whole of the country than simply centralising all infrastructural spending in one region.

Yes, but building the M20 won't 'create a counterpole' it'll save a half hour off a road journey and make the road more attractive than existing train connections. Also when you say centralising infrastructure spending in one region, that has not happened here, Dublin got nothing transport wise from the capital investment plan of late for example, Wexford is probably seeing the biggest spend on transport infrastructure despite the Dublin and Cork both being crippled with congestion.

rebs23 wrote: »

When you also consider our export lead recovery you would probably find that Cork and the Mid West and industries located there have played a very significant part in that recovery.
In relation to more people benefiting from Dart underground there are 520,000 people living in Cork and 190,000 living in Limerick.
At the moment there is simply no properly functioning transport links between two regions with a considerable population base and economies.
No direct rail link and a road that is simply dangerous and inefficient. A journey that should take 50 minutes takes 1.5 hours and it simply unacceptable that this will remain the case for the next 10 years?
Many companies in Cork have bases in Limerick and Galway and vice a versa. Some include Dell, Boston Scientific, Johnson & Johnson, Pfizer, Apple (soon) all of them are consistently complaining about the connectivity between their operations in Ireland due to the state of the current N20.
If Government is serious about providing the infrastructure for the whole of the country and if we are serious about balanced regional development then the M20 should be a priority.

All good points that I agree with, which is why I'd consider the M20 to be high priority and number 3 in the country on a list of big transport projects that were needed yesterday. You probably consider it number 1 because you're a local and an N20 user who will benefit directly.

rebs23 wrote: »

Much more than a huge mega rail project in Dublin which would not provide the same economic return to the country.

Well that's just not correct, DARTu produces a lot more time savings for a lot more people. You're talking daily usage greater than Limerick's entire population, the current N20 only serves circa 30,000 AADT, so we're clearly talking about 2 projects that are in completely different leagues in terms of commuters served and man hours saved.

yop

*Mod Note: Keep it to post and not the poster. Any attacking of posters or side snipes will be dealt with.
Thanks

Jofspring

Would turn the trip from Cork to Galway from approx 3 hours to 1hour 45. It would service three of Ireland other major cities.

The trains are no substitute at all so would be great for both public and business traffic. Not to mention it would connect NUI Galway, University Limerick and UCC.

The train at the moment is a write off. The only decent train service is the ones to Dublin. For example, to get the train from Cork to Galway a guy I was talking to it about on the train had to do the following:

Get a train from Cork to Limerick junction, get a train from Limerick junction to Limerick Colbert, get a bus from Limerick Colbert to Ennis, then get a train from Ennis to Galway. He left cork at around 7 in the morning and arrived on Galway at 12.

I got the train home to Limerick and due to delays it took nearly 2hrs 30mins to get down the road.

zulutango

cgcsb wrote: »

Convenience, in terms of reduced commuting times is an economic benefit and is the primary economic benefit of transport projects.

There's the future planning aspect too.

The M20 would have a profound effect on the economic and demographic dispersal of the country.

Mr.H

cgcsb wrote: »

The point of DART U isn't adding more areas to the network it's adding capacity in order to serve the existing connections which we don't have.

Regarding Munster, the net effect is that Dublin Commuter trains will be then separated from the rest meaning that all intercity services(with the exception of Belfast) can operate on a higher frequency and deliver faster journey times. The project would also provide some of the required electrification works for future high speed rail services between Dublin and Cork.

See this is not the case.

As a former regular user and now rare user of the Waterford to Limerick train and someone who has frequented the Limerick Galway service I can tell you that a lack of trains is nothing to do with the poor service. The lines are old and have slow speed limits at long stretches.

Having an upgrade in Dublin will do nothing but take away much needed "upgrade money" from these other lines.

As for "required electrification works for future high speed rail services between Dublin and Cork." absolutely no benefit to that line apart from seeing an eventual possible cork to Belfast line.

The M20 saves up to 40 mins on the trip from Limerick to Cork without traffic concerns. With traffic the benefit is more like over an hour. Saving an hour between Cork and Limerick and if done right linking the motorway to the Limerick tunnel and saving a huge chuck of time between Galway and Cork.

I find it mind boggling that you cant see how linking three other cities outside Dublin together would not benefit the country as a whole more than making an already possible commute in Dublin just a tad easier.

Or maybe everyone in the country should move to Dublin?

As for saying Dublin is not benefiting from the new Capital investment plan???????????? You keep saying this and you are WRONG

A lot of Projects announced affect Dublin indirectly (moreso than Dart U affecting Munster)

• New Ross bypass means Wexford port is to connect the port to Dublin allowing transportation between the ports. It may not affect you but it does affect businesses who provide hundreds of millions and thousands of jobs (to put it lightly) top this country.
  
• The largest single project IS the Metro link from Dublin City to the Airport (it may have been announced prior to the plan but most of these projects where) - side note: this is the reason Shannon wasnt linked to Limerick when the Limerick Galway track was reopened. New tracks where laid and stations opened but they couldnt link an airport to a city before Dublin.
  
• Dart line extended to Balbriggan
  
• Dart to Maynooth and to Hazelhatch
  
• Phoenix Park tunnel will be reopened
  
• M7 Naas to Newbridge Bypass Widening
  
• Not to mention the new Garda HQ in Dublin, 4,500 new housing rental units to be open this year, New hospital infrastructures in Dublin and so on

You keep saying poor Dublin has been left out but its obviously not the case

cgcsb wrote: »

you are the one who dragged it up months later :rolleyes:

It had been a busy few weeks working around christmas so didnt have time to reply until I did

Mr.H

cgcsb wrote: »

Well that's just not correct, DARTu produces a lot more time savings for a lot more people. You're talking daily usage greater than Limerick's entire population, the current N20 only serves circa 30,000 AADT, so we're clearly talking about 2 projects that are in completely different leagues in terms of commuters served and man hours saved.

Dart Underground would cost at least €4bn while some speculate that that is even a very very very low figure for the amount of work that needs to be done. In fact the machinery alone could cost more than that not to mention the amount of tunnel that needs excavating and the congestion it would cause due to some parts of the above road needing to be closed for access and such. Some speculators suggest it a more accurate figure could be €12bn

The M20 would cost €720m......................... even if that figure was also exaggerated by those wanting the project green lit, surely it wouldnt run into multiple billions??

So if The M20 cost so little and could benefit so many why isnt it been green lit? Do the tinfoil hat brigade have a point when they think that it would harm Dublin as an attractive destination to big companies by having Limerick Galway and Cork connected? Maybe more "Apple"s would fall out of the capital if the M20 existed?

M20 linking Galway and Cork via Limerick for up to €1bn or the Dart Underground which would provide convenience and "bypass Connelly" for €12bn???

By the time the M20 comes around I will probably not need it to be honest but I can see the national benefit of this project over the Bertie bowl that is Dublin Underground. Its a vanity project that could fund a lot of other better national projects.

if €1bn could easily finance Cork to Limerick then how much would it cost to build a motorway up to Donegal and actually bring them back into the country? How about one from Galway to Waterford or update the rail network nationwide and provide modern rail transport for everyone even if they dont have to go to Dublin?

€12bn could go a long way and do a lot better than the underground.

xband

Actually I think creating a counterpole to Dublin would involve putting proper public transportation infrastructure into Cork and solving its growing congestion issues.

The current N40 setup with continuing growth of Carrigaline / Douglas etc will just get more and more clogged.

That's the bit of Munster that's making life miserable for 10s of thousands of people every day

Limerick probably has issues pending too!

zulutango

The problem with making Cork a counter-pole to Dublin is that it's so peripheral to the rest of the country. For this reason, it would be better if the counter pole was Limerick.

xband

zulutango wrote: »

The problem with making Cork a counter-pole to Dublin is that it's so peripheral to the rest of the country. For this reason, it would be better if the counter pole was Limerick.

You can't have it every way tho. Cork is already a substantial population centre with a ton of facilities, major retail, major hospitals, major employment hub and sits on a massive natural harbour ... One of the best ranking and largest universities in Ireland etc etc

Do you suggest demolishing it and moving its population to Athlone perhaps?

This is what drives me bonkers about all Irish discussions about planning. Hundreds of thousands of people already live somewhere and it's naturally a regional hub and the immediate thing is to try and turn somewhere else into the hub because it all turns parochial county vs county politics.

Our spatial planning is strategies are absolutely insane in that regard.

What creates a hub is scale. You need a pool of services, employment opportunities, 3rd level institutions producing graduates who can take jobs in that city and stay and develop businesses and be economically active, vibrant and diverse cultural life, transport infrastructure, retail infrastructure etc etc

Attempting to deflate Cork to grow somewhere else would be totally insane planning and would just lead to yet more of a focus on having Dublin sprawling out to the extent that it can't cope too.

Limerick and Galway are two decent regional hubs in their own rights too and Waterford is potentially becoming one with a bit of focus.

We need to see our cities as essential hubs for making the economy and cultural life happen.

zulutango

xband wrote: »

You can't have it every way tho. Cork is already a substantial population centre with a ton of facilities, major retail, major hospitals, major employment hub and sits on a massive natural harbour ... One of the best ranking and largest universities in Ireland etc etc

Do you suggest demolishing it and moving its population to Athlone perhaps?

This is what drives me bonkers about all Irish discussions about planning. Hundreds of thousands of people already live somewhere and it's naturally a regional hub and the immediate thing is to try and turn somewhere else into the hub because it all turns parochial county vs county politics.

Our spatial planning is strategies are absolutely insane in that regard.

What creates a hub is scale. You need a pool of services, employment opportunities, 3rd level institutions producing graduates who can take jobs in that city and stay and develop businesses and be economically active, vibrant and diverse cultural life, transport infrastructure, retail infrastructure etc etc

Attempting to deflate Cork to grow somewhere else would be totally insane planning and would just lead to yet more of a focus on having Dublin sprawling out to the extent that it can't cope too.

Limerick and Galway are two decent regional hubs in their own rights too and Waterford is potentially becoming one with a bit of focus.

We need to see our cities as essential hubs for making the economy and cultural life happen.

Nobody is calling for Cork to be deflated (whatever that means!) or for it to be moved to Athlone. Cork is a fine city and will continue to be that. But if we're truly talking about developing a counter pole then geography is a huge consideration. Otherwise, the benefit is limited. The obvious place to develop the counter pole is Limerick. There's nothing parochial in that. It just makes most sense.

xband

To pursue that logic, really all future development should be in either Athlone or Portlaoise.

On an all island level, Dundalk is actually far more logical as its in reach of about 2.5m people.

Markcheese

I've often thought our motorway system being hubbed off dublin reinforced its position as main business centre ... all distribution and the main airport centre is always going to be easier from dublin to the regions because all roads hub off dublin ...
Cork limerick and waterford mways should have met in somewhere in tipp then met up with a galway dublin motorway and possibly linked to a drogheda/belfast route too.
A bit late now though ---

xband

Markcheese wrote: »

I've often thought our motorway system being hubbed off dublin reinforced its position as main business centre ... all distribution and the main airport centre is always going to be easier from dublin to the regions because all roads hub off dublin ...
Cork limerick and waterford mways should have met in somewhere in tipp then met up with a galway dublin motorway and possibly linked to a drogheda/belfast route too.
A bit late now though ---

The M7 M8 junction being further south south would have created a Munster Y shaped cross system.

No thought for anything beyond radial out of Dublin.

You can't even change from the M7 to M8 northbound at all. There's no interchange. It assumes all traffic is Dublin to/from Cork or Limerick as the junction is setup that way. If you even miss the exit onto the M8 looping back involves driving about 60km as you've to go way down the M7 then back to before the tolls at Portlaoise to turn back to access to M8

They didn't even put in a flyover to allow interchange between the two routes in both directions!

Mr.H

Ladies/Gents it makes no sense to try to "counter-pole Dublin"

Dublin is the capital city and should be seen as such.

What needs to be done is to eventually create a "provincial" (non capital city) system where Galway Limerick Cork and Waterford are linked to each other in their own right independent of Dublin.

We need a Motorway running from Limerick to Waterford and Limerick to Cork. That linked with Galway would provide quick travel between the 4 non Capital cities and would encourage growth in both business and population surrounding all 4 cities.

With University/IT's in all 4 cities the future graduates would provide a strong workforce for these Cities and bring companies to these areas creating high level jobs. With a strong transport option between the Cities companies would have no reason not to look at these as viable options.

The biggest companies in the world do have hubs in capital cities and there is no reason we cant encourage that here by getting firms to open HQ in Dublin. But the workforce could very easily be moved to Cork Limerick Waterford or Galway with the right infrastructure.

My vision for the non capital cities would be a proper rail link between all four as well as a fully functional motorway.

Munster should be full of rail and have a regular commute service throughout Kerry, Limerick, Cork and Waterford. A rail link from Limerick and Galway to Shannon shouldnt even be a second tought. It would cost next to nothing compared to these other projects. 14km of track would encourage more use of the airport for both passengers and cargo.

If instead of focusing on counter poles to Dublin, we focused on what would grow our cities it would take all the local politics and the self interests out of the argument

zulutango

xband wrote: »

To pursue that logic, really all future development should be in either Athlone or Portlaoise.

On an all island level, Dundalk is actually far more logical as its in reach of about 2.5m people.

No, a counter pole is about creating a new (and more beneficial) population dispersal. The existing dispersal is irrelevant.

cgcsb

Jofspring wrote: »

Would turn the trip from Cork to Galway from approx 3 hours to 1hour 45. It would service three of Ireland other major cities.

The trains are no substitute at all so would be great for both public and business traffic. Not to mention it would connect NUI Galway, University Limerick and UCC.

The train at the moment is a write off. The only decent train service is the ones to Dublin. For example, to get the train from Cork to Galway a guy I was talking to it about on the train had to do the following:

Get a train from Cork to Limerick junction, get a train from Limerick junction to Limerick Colbert, get a bus from Limerick Colbert to Ennis, then get a train from Ennis to Galway. He left cork at around 7 in the morning and arrived on Galway at 12.

I got the train home to Limerick and due to delays it took nearly 2hrs 30mins to get down the road.

They're both exceptional examples. There is one direct train from Limerick jnct to Galway afaik. However the journey time is unacceptable. The long journey time is down to the previous govt trying to rebuild the western rail corridor on it's Victorian Era(cheap) single track alignment it only cost just over €100m you get what you pay for. A modern railway connecting Galway to Limerick could have been done for a few extra euro but it's Ireland.