M20 Limerick to Cork

cgcsb

zulutango wrote: »

There's the future planning aspect too.

The M20 would have a profound effect on the economic and demographic dispersal of the country.

There is no future planning, infrastructure construction in Ireland is a fire fighting exercise and since we're now building less of it in a time of unprecedented growth the backlog of projects is only going to get longer.

I don't think the M20 will have as big an impact as you think it's not a silver bullet. The reality is people don't make daily intercity journeys, what'll make the other Cities a counterpole is making them liveable. Cork's bus system for example is like something you'd see in Turkish towns. Then of course the cities must be stopped from sprawling.

cgcsb

zulutango wrote: »

The problem with making Cork a counter-pole to Dublin is that it's so peripheral to the rest of the country. For this reason, it would be better if the counter pole was Limerick.

That's Irish planning in a nutshell everyone wants a piece of the pie every town was a national gateway in the national spatial strategy which is why Dublin dominates.

xband

What's actually needed ahead of that to benefit Cork and Limerick is improving their infrastructure.

Cork's whole southern ring is starting to reach capacity. That's going to get worse and there seems to be no plan to improve public transport.

Rather than the M20 I would prefer to see a light rail connection to Carrigaline via Douglas and a light rail connection through the Western Suburbs to UCC, CIT and Ballincollig.

I'm sure similar issues need to be planned for in Limerick too.

As far as I can see linking Cork and Limerick by motorway wouldn't actually achieve all that much. Why would it suddenly make them massively more attractive places ?.

Reducing commute times, massively improving quality of life (an hour+ off your day each morning and evening), improving the evironment, reducing CO2 emissions nationally and opening up housing possibilities.


Yeah it would benefit some logistics companies a bit, but it's certainly not what the cities are crying out for in terms of urgent investment

Most likely or would just cause the towns connected to the M20 near Cork to become dormitory towns and same at Limerick side. Basically, just opening up yet more housing sprawl out of town.

Improving infrastructure in those cities would massively improve life for hundreds of thousands of people, not just the relatively small stream of traffic between the two.

I'm a little puzzled as to how motorway linking them would be some kind of magic economic activity booster.

What exactly would be the purpose of all these driving trips? I've been living in Cork for years and I've had reason to visit Limerick maybe twice ever. It's not that I've anything against Limeick, but why would I need to go there ?

Id rather see modest investment in making the Cork Limerick road a good, safe, N Road

cgcsb

Mr.H wrote: »

See this is not the case.

As a former regular user and now rare user of the Waterford to Limerick train and someone who has frequented the Limerick Galway service I can tell you that a lack of trains is nothing to do with the poor service. The lines are old and have slow speed limits at long stretches.

Having an upgrade in Dublin will do nothing but take away much needed "upgrade money" from these other lines.

That's not the point I was making, my point was that the main lines would have much more room for more frequency because they won't be competing with commuter services in Heuston, e.g. half hourly trains on Dublin-Cork.

Mr.H wrote: »

As for "required electrification works for future high speed rail services between Dublin and Cork." absolutely no benefit to that line apart from seeing an eventual possible cork to Belfast line.

What? there's no benefits to improving the Dublin-Cork line? it's the busiest intercity line in Ireland and it's Irish Rail's cash cow.

Mr.H wrote: »

I find it mind boggling that you cant see how linking three other cities outside Dublin together would not benefit the country as a whole more than making an already possible commute in Dublin just a tad easier.

That's because you don't understand the DART underground project and know nothing about it. You were claiming it went from Heuston to Connolly a few posts back. The fact is, it's not making commuting a tad easier, it'll be many times easier for hundreds of thousands of daily users, not to mention the knock on relief provided to the N7 and M50.

Mr.H wrote: »

A lot of Projects announced affect Dublin indirectly (moreso than Dart U affecting Munster)

• New Ross bypass means Wexford port is to connect the port to Dublin allowing transportation between the ports. It may not affect you but it does affect businesses who provide hundreds of millions and thousands of jobs (to put it lightly) top this country.
  
• The largest single project IS the Metro link from Dublin City to the Airport (it may have been announced prior to the plan but most of these projects where) - side note: this is the reason Shannon wasnt linked to Limerick when the Limerick Galway track was reopened. New tracks where laid and stations opened but they couldnt link an airport to a city before Dublin.
  
• Dart line extended to Balbriggan
  
• Dart to Maynooth and to Hazelhatch
  
• Phoenix Park tunnel will be reopened
  
• M7 Naas to Newbridge Bypass Widening
  
• Not to mention the new Garda HQ in Dublin, 4,500 new housing rental units to be open this year, New hospital infrastructures in Dublin and so on

1)New Ross is not in Dublin
2)Metro North is not happening
3)DART to Maynooth and Hazelhatch is not happening and cannot happen without the tunnel anyway
4)Balbriggan DART extension and Phoenix Park tunnel combined cost less than €30m
5)Garda HQ etc. is not transport

cgcsb

Mr.H wrote: »

Dart Underground would cost at least €4bn while some speculate that that is even a very very very low figure for the amount of work that needs to be done. In fact the machinery alone could cost more than that not to mention the amount of tunnel that needs excavating and the congestion it would cause due to some parts of the above road needing to be closed for access and such. Some speculators suggest it a more accurate figure could be €12bn

The M20 would cost €720m......................... even if that figure was also exaggerated by those wanting the project green lit, surely it wouldnt run into multiple billions??

So if The M20 cost so little and could benefit so many why isnt it been green lit? Do the tinfoil hat brigade have a point when they think that it would harm Dublin as an attractive destination to big companies by having Limerick Galway and Cork connected? Maybe more "Apple"s would fall out of the capital if the M20 existed?

M20 linking Galway and Cork via Limerick for up to €1bn or the Dart Underground which would provide convenience and "bypass Connelly" for €12bn???

By the time the M20 comes around I will probably not need it to be honest but I can see the national benefit of this project over the Bertie bowl that is Dublin Underground. Its a vanity project that could fund a lot of other better national projects.

if €1bn could easily finance Cork to Limerick then how much would it cost to build a motorway up to Donegal and actually bring them back into the country? How about one from Galway to Waterford or update the rail network nationwide and provide modern rail transport for everyone even if they dont have to go to Dublin?

€12bn could go a long way and do a lot better than the underground.

€12bn is a rubbish figure you just made up off the top of your head so you don't have a point I'm afraid. €4bn is a well costed estimate in 2011 euros and includes all associated costs.

cgcsb

xband wrote: »

What's actually needed ahead of that to benefit Cork and Limerick is improving their infrastructure.

Cork's whole southern ring is starting to reach capacity. That's going to get worse and there seems to be no plan to improve public transport.

Rather than the M20 I would prefer to see a light rail connection to Carrigaline via Douglas and a light rail connection through the Western Suburbs to UCC, CIT and Ballincollig.

I'm sure similar issues need to be planned for in Limerick too.

As far as I can see linking Cork and Limerick by motorway wouldn't actually achieve all that much. Why would it suddenly make them massively more attractive places ?.

Reducing commute times, massively improving quality of life (an hour+ off your day each morning and evening), improving the evironment, reducing CO2 emissions nationally and opening up housing possibilities.


Yeah it would benefit some logistics companies a bit, but it's certainly not what the cities are crying out for in terms of urgent investment

Most likely or would just cause the towns connected to the M20 near Cork to become dormitory towns and same at Limerick side. Basically, just opening up yet more housing sprawl out of town.

Improving infrastructure in those cities would massively improve life for hundreds of thousands of people, not just the relatively small stream of traffic between the two.

I'm a little puzzled as to how motorway linking them would be some kind of magic economic activity booster.

What exactly would be the purpose of all these driving trips? I've been living in Cork for years and I've had reason to visit Limerick maybe twice ever. It's not that I've anything against Limeick, but why would I need to go there ?

Id rather see modest investment in making the Cork Limerick road a good, safe, N Road

You are spot on. The M20, a worthwhile project it may be, is no silver bullet in balanced regional development. The Cities themselves need investment. Few people make intercity journeys regularly but people commute short distances every day. In Cork there is a 4 lane road the whole way between the airport and blackpool via the south link, quays and Leitrim St, yet the opportunity to build a quality bus corridor or BRT system along this route has not been seized. Instead people are worried about the occasional trip they may take on the M20. Our priorities are mixed up and we're obsessed with cars like other western states were 40 years ago.

zulutango

cgcsb wrote: »

You are spot on. The M20, a worthwhile project it may be, is no silver bullet in balanced regional development. The Cities themselves need investment. Few people make intercity journeys regularly but people commute short distances every day.

Your thinking is both back to front and incredibly myopic. Infrastructure brings investment. It's not simply about shorter commuting times or facilitating 'the few' who do intercity travel. Transport infrastructure such as the M20 has the potential to radically change the relationship between two small cities, such that they may grow from being small cities to big ones over time. We're seeing that in Limerick already with the M7. Some of the biggest projects in the city are happening because the M7 was built. They wouldn't be happening otherwise. Similarly, big investments would happen if the M20 was built. There's no doubting that. I heard through the grapevine that Regeneron are making a big play for the M20 to be built as they want to link up with the Cork pharma scene. They have already invested €250 million in their facility in Limerick and they want to do more but the lack of a decent connection to Cork is hindering them.

cgcsb

zulutango wrote: »

Your thinking is both back to front and incredibly myopic. Infrastructure brings investment. It's not simply about shorter commuting times or facilitating 'the few' who do intercity travel. Transport infrastructure such as the M20 has the potential to radically change the relationship between two small cities, such that they may grow from being small cities to big ones over time. We're seeing that in Limerick already with the M7. Some of the biggest projects in the city are happening because the M7 was built. They wouldn't be happening otherwise. Similarly, big investments would happen if the M20 was built. There's no doubting that. I heard through the grapevine that Regeneron are making a big play for the M20 to be built as they want to link up with the Cork pharma scene. They have already invested €250 million in their facility in Limerick and they want to do more but the lack of a decent connection to Cork is hindering them.

I think it's more important for those companies that their workers can get in and out of work every day in reasonable time rather than having motorway between the Cities.

cgcsb

In order for the M20 to get the go ahead, surely Cork would need to have a northern ring road in place first otherwise the motorway will bring more cars into Cork City Centre which would be detrimental for Cork and completely against government policy which seeks to reduce cars in central areas.

zulutango

cgcsb wrote: »

I think it's more important for those companies that their workers can get in and out of work every day in reasonable time rather than having motorway between the Cities.

Well, obviously, the people in charge of those companies have a different view. But you tell 'em!!

Clareman

Folks,

This is the Limerick Regional forum, there is a Cork forum and an Infrastructure forum if you want to discuss topics relevent to those, please keep the discussion here local.

Thanks

Mr.H

cgcsb wrote: »

That's not the point I was making, my point was that the main lines would have much more room for more frequency because they won't be competing with commuter services in Heuston, e.g. half hourly trains on Dublin-Cork.

So having more trains between Dublin and Cork is of benefit to someone working in Galway Limerick Waterford or Cork?? and I am not even talking the Cities....................

This is the linear mentality that I am referring to. Improving the already possible commute in Dublin by a few minutes does sweet pineapple for the rest of the country

cgcsb wrote: »

What? there's no benefits to improving the Dublin-Cork line? it's the busiest intercity line in Ireland and it's Irish Rail's cash cow.

Its Irish Rails cash cow because its the only actual service it has. The rest are barely commuter standard. Hell the Dart is of higher quality than the Limerick Junc. to Waterford or Limerick to Galway.

Dublin Cork does not need improving!! The rest of the country DOES need investing in. You said it yourself that the Limerick Galway line could have been properly done for not a whole lot extra. They never wanted it to be a success because it means taking investment away from Dublin Cork and Dublin Belfast.

cgcsb wrote: »

That's because you don't understand the DART underground project and know nothing about it. You were claiming it went from Heuston to Connolly a few posts back. The fact is, it's not making commuting a tad easier, it'll be many times easier for hundreds of thousands of daily users, not to mention the knock on relief provided to the N7 and M50.

Dont understand it??? Yea I think I am not the only one who doesnt understand it. At least the need for it.

As for saying it went from Hueston to Connolly I never meant to make that suggestion. My suggestion was that there was already a link between the two stations making the new tunnel unnecessary.

I will also suggest that if DartU was build it would make no difference to the M7 by any slight way. Who on earth and where would they be if they decided "I wont use the M7 today instead I'll use the DartU".................. Not to mention that the exact trip will be possible anyway with Pheonix tunnel.

cgcsb wrote: »

1)New Ross is not in Dublin
2)Metro North is not happening
3)DART to Maynooth and Hazelhatch is not happening and cannot happen without the tunnel anyway
4)Balbriggan DART extension and Phoenix Park tunnel combined cost less than €30m
5)Garda HQ etc. is not transport

1) New Ross bypass is to allow a direct connection between Roselare and Dublin Port................................

2) Airport link via Metro IS happening at least as likely as the rest of the projects

3) If Dart to Maynooth isnt possible then why is it part of the national strategy you keep blabbing about?

You keep saying that Dublin is ignored yet I have shown most of the projects announced affect Dublin directly or indirectly

cgcsb wrote: »

€12bn is a rubbish figure you just made up off the top of your head so you don't have a point I'm afraid. €4bn is a well costed estimate in 2011 euros and includes all associated costs.

€4bn is well costed by who?? Same men who costed Irish water?

They originally said €2bn and then €3bn came about and now its assumed €4bn would have done it.

For 8km of tunnel track and making the thing work would not cost anything close to as little as 4bn. Your talking digging 25km (as far as i remember) down and about 8km give or take, of tunnel which then needs to be secured electrified and tracked. Take the cost of the initial dig plus rental of specialised equipment then labour costs do you really think it is even close to €4bn???

Consider this present government and their constant lower figures to get us to sign up before hitting us with the actual number.

So yes €12bn is a random figure but it is probably a lot closer to the real number than €4bn

But on point the less than €1bn figure is a real number. €700m was touted as the real number and if that was also massaged as I suggest the DartU was then its still a huge difference from the DartU cost.

Therefore if you work out cost of project compared to the amount of people it could actually benefit and compare the M20 to the DartU it would make for interesting reading.

Specially when you consider that The DartU will Benefit people who travel on that line and NOONE else as I have suggested it helps noone to have more trains between cork and dublin.

The M20 on the other hand helps businesses existing and potential. It helps users now and potential. It helps two cities build and develop while taking pressure off growth all being piled on Dublin...........

But something makes me think you disagree

Mr.H

I wonder what the cost or likely hood of building an M24 from Limerick to Waterford would be instead?

It would pass through Cahir meaning a connection with the M8 would automatically link Waterford Limerick Cork and Galway by Motorway. But then again common sense............

It takes about 30/35 mins from Cahir to Cork on the M8 (Last I did it but correct me if I am wrong as it was awhile back). Its about 60km from Limerick to Cahir meaning a possible 30 min drive also. Maybe a few improvements or road alignments could get that trip from Limerick to Cork under an hour via M24 and M8?

I dont know about everyone else but I figure the issue with the current N20 is the traffic (lost time) rather than the distance (time without traffic)

The motorway situation wouldnt be so bad if the motorways where connected to each other at a few points away from dublin

marno21

Mr.H wrote: »

1) New Ross bypass is to allow a direct connection between Roselare and Dublin Port................................

No it doesn't. Traffic from New Ross -> Dublin uses the N25 to Wexford (which is bypassed) then the N11 and M11 to Dublin.

Mr.H

marno21 wrote: »

No it doesn't. Traffic from New Ross -> Dublin uses the N25 to Wexford (which is bypassed) then the N11 and M11 to Dublin.

I thought the point was that they couldnt get permission to extend the M11 so they where connecting Rosslare to the M9 via New Ross?

That was the impression I was given anyway.

Unless its a much scaled back version of the original full motorway bypass I cant see any reason for building such a high capacity road network that off grid. If it is just a simple matter of fixing the massive congestion issue a new bridge or ring road would be way more sufficient.

Clareman

Last warning folks, lets stick to Limerick stuff, if you want to discuss other regions feel free to visit their forum.

cgcsb

I prefix this by saying I appreciate that this is the Limerick forum and that I fully support the M20 and think it would be very beneficial for Limerick and would place Limerick as a central hub for trade. I'm issuing the below response to Mr H, a poster who insists that I am wrong in the importance I assign the M20 project. I'm only responding to it to dispel false information issued by said poster, e.g. €12bn this and 25km that. and so on.

Mr.H wrote: »

So having more trains between Dublin and Cork is of benefit to someone working in Galway Limerick Waterford or Cork?? and I am not even talking the Cities....................

Galway, Limerick Waterford and Kerry would have more trains as a result.

Mr.H wrote: »

Dublin Cork does not need improving!! The rest of the country DOES need investing in. You said it yourself that the Limerick Galway line could have been properly done for not a whole lot extra. They never wanted it to be a success because it means taking investment away from Dublin Cork and Dublin Belfast.

Not really FF done it to get some votes in the west at fractional costs, it wasn't taking money from anywhere else.

Mr.H wrote: »

Dont understand it??? Yea I think I am not the only one who doesnt understand it. At least the need for it.

As for saying it went from Hueston to Connolly I never meant to make that suggestion. My suggestion was that there was already a link between the two stations making the new tunnel unnecessary.

I will also suggest that if DartU was build it would make no difference to the M7 by any slight way. Who on earth and where would they be if they decided "I wont use the M7 today instead I'll use the DartU".................. Not to mention that the exact trip will be possible anyway with Pheonix tunnel.

Again, this is because you don't seem to understand the capacity issue. Limerick is connected to Cork by road, the reason we are considering a replacement with motorway is because of capacity, the same reason why DARTu was designed. The difference is that Dublin's commuter rail network is facing a much larger capacity crisis than the N20 road is.

Mr.H wrote: »

1) New Ross bypass is to allow a direct connection between Roselare and Dublin Port................................

Nothing to do with Roslare-Dublin, that is handled by the N11, New Ross is way off to west.

Mr.H wrote: »

2) Airport link via Metro IS happening at least as likely as the rest of the projects

3) If Dart to Maynooth isnt possible then why is it part of the national strategy you keep blabbing about?

It's on the never never

Mr.H wrote: »

€4bn is well costed by who?? Same men who costed Irish water?

They originally said €2bn and then €3bn came about and now its assumed €4bn would have done it.

AECOM consultants have detailed costing available on irishrail.ie. €2bn is approximately the cost of the tunneling project + new track and stations. €3.8-€4bn is approximately the cost of tunneling+new track and stations+electrification to Maynooth and Hazelhatch, removal of over a dozen level crossings, additional new trains, a new depot ect.

Mr.H wrote: »

For 8km of tunnel track and making the thing work would not cost anything close to as little as 4bn. Your talking digging 25km (as far as i remember) down and about 8km give or take, of tunnel which then needs to be secured electrified and tracked. Take the cost of the initial dig plus rental of specialised equipment then labour costs do you really think it is even close to €4bn???

What's 25km? Yes €4bn would be accurate.

Mr.H wrote: »

Consider this present government and their constant lower figures to get us to sign up before hitting us with the actual number.

So yes €12bn is a random figure but it is probably a lot closer to the real number than €4bn

No it's not, it's just a number you made up without any knowledge on the topic.

Mr.H wrote: »

But on point the less than €1bn figure is a real number. €700m was touted as the real number and if that was also massaged as I suggest the DartU was then its still a huge difference from the DartU cost.

Therefore if you work out cost of project compared to the amount of people it could actually benefit and compare the M20 to the DartU it would make for interesting reading.

There isn't a contest the N20 only handles 30,000 AADT at it's busiest point just north of Cork City with only 22,000 further north.

Mr.H wrote: »

As I have suggested it helps noone to have more trains between Cork and Dublin.

A better rail service between the 2 largest cities helps nobody? You're barking.

power101

The proposed Cork-Limerick M20 motorway would not only recoup the State’s investment but double it if the project was given the green light, the Government’s original research shows.

Richard Bowen, senior engineer with the Transport Infrastructure Ireland, formerly the National Road Authority, said the analysis showed that, even in the “worst case scenario”, the benefits of the scheme were significant.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/proposed-cork-limerick-m20-motorwaywould-pay-off-for-state-376560.html

knockon29

I propose that the M20 should link with the dublin cork motorway at mitchelstown. this is only a couple kilometers longer that via mallow. it would save hundreds of millions of euro and thus make the project more economically viable.
This motorway could continue on from mitchelstown to waterford connection up waterford and cork, limerick and waterford, cork and limerick for about the same cost as just connecting limerick and cork.
yes the dunkettle roundabout will need to be upgraded to a proper flyover system to avoid it being a bottle neck.

kilburn

Best of luck with that proposal the cheapest option is not always the best

bazz26

Slightly off topic but the second section of the M18 opened today 2 month ahead of schedule and within budget. Limerick and Galway cities are now linked by proper dual carriageway/motorway infrastructure. Journey time between both should take about 55 mins to an hour. The sooner they can get their **** together with the route of the M20 the better.

Paddico

knockon29 wrote: »

I propose that the M20 should link with the dublin cork motorway at mitchelstown. this is only a couple kilometers longer that via mallow. it would save hundreds of millions of euro and thus make the project more economically viable.
This motorway could continue on from mitchelstown to waterford connection up waterford and cork, limerick and waterford, cork and limerick for about the same cost as just connecting limerick and cork.
yes the dunkettle roundabout will need to be upgraded to a proper flyover system to avoid it being a bottle neck.

Dont think that this hasnt been considered before. It has and its not feesable

marno21

bazz26 wrote: »

Slightly off topic but the second section of the M18 opened today 2 month ahead of schedule and within budget. Limerick and Galway cities are now linked by proper dual carriageway/motorway infrastructure. Journey time between both should take about 55 mins to an hour. The sooner they can get their **** together with the route of the M20 the better.

5 months ahead of schedule would you believe. Drove it yesterday, fantastic stretch of road. Absolutely unreal for anyone going to Galway or even better for heading north. Limerick-Tuam has been absolutely transformed since 2002, Hurlers Cross, Newmarket, Clarecastle, Ennis, Barefield, Crusheen, Gort, Labane, Ardrahan, Kilcolgan, Clarinbridge, Oranmore, Claregalway, Tuam all now fully bypassed by motorway or high quality dual carriageway. The west is a much smaller place now.

We still need to push on and get the most important link in Ireland done, especially given the M20 is being extended along the N21 to Rathkeale, the Cork road is highly important now.

Go back to the time of the Saw Doctors song and the thought of getting from north of Tuam to Patrickswell in a little over an hour would see you confined to an asylum

Irish_rat

knockon29 wrote: »

I propose that the M20 should link with the dublin cork motorway at mitchelstown. this is only a couple kilometers longer that via mallow. it would save hundreds of millions of euro and thus make the project more economically viable.
This motorway could continue on from mitchelstown to waterford connection up waterford and cork, limerick and waterford, cork and limerick for about the same cost as just connecting limerick and cork.
yes the dunkettle roundabout will need to be upgraded to a proper flyover system to avoid it being a bottle neck.

Go onto the roads forum this has been mentioned countless times at this stage.

wherearewe45

Paddico wrote:

Dont think that this hasnt been considered before. It has and its not feesable

Why not? On the face of it it seems like a great idea to connect Munster

Cookiemunster

wherearewe45 wrote: »

Why not? On the face of it it seems like a great idea to connect Munster

Have a read of the M20 thread on the roads forum. There's plenty of explanation there as to why the Limerick to Mitchelstown route is not viable. Plus Charleville, Buttevant and Mallow need bypasses. Mallow to Cork needs to be dualed. The M30 is the only show in town.

MrLaurel

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Have a read of the M20 thread on the roads forum. There's plenty of explanation there as to why the Limerick to Mitchelstown route is not viable. Plus Charleville, Buttevant and Mallow need bypasses. Mallow to Cork needs to be dualed. The M30 is the only show in town.

Personally I think the M20 is the only show in town but if you want to upgrade the N30 from Waterford to Enniscorthy to Motorway status, you're better off over in the Waterford Forum.

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote:

Plus Charleville, Buttevant and Mallow need bypasses. Mallow to Cork needs to be dualed. The M30 is the only show in town.

Why would these towns need bypasses if the large volume of inter-city traffic was no longer going through them?

marno21

zulutango wrote: »

Why would these towns need bypasses if the large volume of inter-city traffic was no longer going through them?

Because the route selection study for the last M20 project said that around 25% of traffic would use an M20 via Mitchelstown.

You also have 16-20k vehicles daily using Mallow-Cork which would require dualling if the new road routed via Mitchelstown.

Cookiemunster

So An Taoiseach Varadker has promised €20m to bring the M20 to planning, but has said that money for CPOs and build won't be part of the current capital plan, which runs until 2021. So probably 2024/25 before we see an open road, as long as the money can be found for those stages in 2021.