The great diesel vs petrol vs ev vs everything debate

vectra

Hachiko wrote: »

not nearly as delighted as I am when I hear a nice v6 growl though with no nasty emissions.

So now petrol emmisions are not nasty?

cadaliac

Hachiko wrote: »

correct, February and a more recent one also.

I will pull up another article in February 2016 if you want and see what the trend is, UK people are slowly getting weaned back to petrols. It might be hard for Irish people to accept it but hey.

lots of people are already switching back to petrol - especially in the second hand market

JohnBoy26

vectra wrote: »

So now petrol emmisions are not nasty?

They're not half as nasty as the soot particles from diesel tbh

vectra

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

They're not half as nasty as the soot particles from diesel tbh

Two wrong's do not make a right.

cml387

Did early man argue over the virtues of the flint axehead over the bronze axehead? I suspect they did.

mickdw

If this scandal does something to erode the myth the petrol is bad, it will have done great service to motoring in general.
If it highlights the stupidity of the current supposedly environmental based tax system, even better.
Diesel of course has its place but that place is not in grannies runaround doing 3k miles per year.

Seth Brundle

cml387 wrote: »

Did early man argue over the virtues of the flint axehead over the bronze axehead? I suspect they did.

Seemingly cave drawings found recently indicate that the bronze axe metallurgists misled the tribe about the smoke from the fire when making bronze!

Brian Scan

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Ah now, it has been repeatedly made out here that those of us that favour cleaner better sounding transport are completely anti diesel.

We're not, but the whole system/culture of diesel incentivisation has completely skewed things.
Those on long commutes, hauling cargo etc will still be better off on diesel in any version of ireland over the next 10years, nobody is gonna be hauled from their bed and made denounce diesel and hand over their keys.
They may not be as better off, but if the sums work for diesel why should you need all the extra incentives on top.

The Green party levy on petrol to punish it for having lower nox and particulate emissions is just plain bizarre.
Why should diesel be the only choice for people who need to claim vat back?
Why should diesel be subject to only token emissions checks at NCT time? (Although it does sound like they will now be checking that you have at least a dummy inoperative DPF filter fitted)

Not by me.

oppenheimer1

mickdw wrote: »

If this scandal does something to erode the myth the petrol is bad, it will have done great service to motoring in general.
If it highlights the stupidity of the current supposedly environmental based tax system, even better.
Diesel of course has its place but that place is not in grannies runaround doing 3k miles per year.

Why not? Granted a diesel should be driven for long distances in orderto get the dpf up to temperature buy why shouldn't a granny drive a car with a higher fuel economy and lower tax?

Hachiko

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Why not? Granted a diesel should be driven for long distances in orderto get the dpf up to temperature buy why shouldn't a granny drive a car with a higher fuel economy and lower tax?

do you understand how diesels work? people doing low miles and buying diesels is the stupidest thing and mostly due to people being oblivious as to the real ownership cost of diesels.

Petrols are far more reliable and low maintenance than petrol, either over 10k miles a year or 40k miles a year. Diesels come into the equation when driven on high miles which in most peoples mind is above ~10k miles p/a.

Far too many people buy diesel to save a few hundred euro a year on tax which is downright sad.

I calculated that the payback for the extra cost of a 1.6 Diesel I30 V 1.4 Petrol I30 doing 25,000 Kms a year is just over 4 years.

@ 50,000 Kms a year just over 2 years, after this the difference is only about 400 Euro's the difference in tax isn't big either.

This is what dealers should be sitting down with people and calculating for them because to most people here Diesel = saving money and nothing else will do better.

colm_mcm

What about a 1.4 diesel i30 vs 1.4 petrol? Would that not be more fair? Trim levels the same too.

The 1.6 diesel is €1700 more than the 1.4 diesel and has more spec.

The 1.4 diesel is €2k more than the petrol, spec-for-spec.

mickdw

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Why not? Granted a diesel should be driven for long distances in orderto get the dpf up to temperature buy why shouldn't a granny drive a car with a higher fuel economy and lower tax?

Because granny will save a few hundred in fuel costs per year given the low mileage. That is the only upside. The downsides are very strong likelihood of egr and dpf problems that could easily cost 1 to 2k. In addition, the diesel is at its most polluting and least efficient when cold so lots of short journeys are the worst thing for it so realistically it will be more cost efficient and trouble free for granny to buy a petrol. Typically, a granny who will like a small car so it will probably do 40 mpg anyway in petrol form and will have equally cheap tax as any diesel.
granny is free to buy any car but listening to salesmen and opting for the diesel that he has in stock is the worst option.

Diesels are crap in town and city driving, my brother's A4 TDI hardly manages 35 mpg. Even with all it's stupid driving modes that ruin the driving experience and that horrid start stop. Jesus I'm glad I'm in an EV, even with it's limited range, just get in and drive no fiddling with stupid settings "oh better put it in this mode to save a few mpg" or "I want to drive a bit faster and want better throttle response" bla bla.

JohnBoy26

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Why not? Granted a diesel should be driven for long distances in orderto get the dpf up to temperature buy why shouldn't a granny drive a car with a higher fuel economy and lower tax?

Because granny won't drive long distances to enable the dpf to regen. Granny is also likely to go through clutches which will probably mean dmf's too on the diesel. The tax around the same between petrol and diesel these days, especially on small cars like granny will be driving. Fuel economy won't be much different either on the small journeys.

colm_mcm

colm_mcm wrote: »

What about a 1.4 diesel i30 vs 1.4 petrol? Would that not be more fair? Trim levels the same too.

The 1.6 diesel is €1700 more than the 1.4 diesel and has more spec.

The 1.4 diesel is €2k more than the petrol, spec-for-spec.

Yeah I did my calculation based on the 1.4 V 1.4 . I posted the 1.6 in error.

mickdw

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah I did my calculation based on the 1.4 V 1.4 . I posted the 1.6 in error.

Do you allow for the diesel car being worth at trade in again?

mickdw

mickdw wrote: »

Do you allow for the diesel car being worth at trade in again?

Checking on carzone would indicate not much of a difference for a 131 reg but here are only 7 petrols to compare.

vectra

Lads.
Ye are way off the ball with all this nonsense of granny driving (or put-putting as ye call it) around town just for cheaper tax.

I am not a granny ans I certainly do not drive like a granny.

But here are some experiences of my past few cars.



2010 Octavia vRS diesel - after 2 years ownership = 26k kms.

2012 Octavia vRS diesel - after 9 months of ownership = 6.5k kms

2013 Octavia vRS Diesel combi - After 2 years of ownership = 17k kms.

Now a lot of you will sit back and have a grin from ear to ear saying. ( Bloody twat buying a diesel for that amount of mileage.

OK
Take car number one,
Bought it on October 5th 2010
Was approached in a local store May 2011 by a guy asking if I owned the white vRS outside as he thought he had sen me driving about in it. I said yes,
Next question from him was "Is she diesel or petrol" to which I replied Diesel.
Next question was "Are you selling it"?
I said not right now but will be in October 5th 2012.
He said that would suit me perfectly, "Keep me in mind for it please.

Well time passed and I won't bore yet with the details but he called the following March to my house and asked for a drive in it.
Asked a price which he was happy with. Paid me a deposit and collected it on 5th October.
Thrilled he was and still is,

Had this been a petrol I can assure it would not have sold so easily

Car number 2

Octavia vRS 2012 Diesel
Well
We all know the story with this one,
But
I had 3 people lined up to buy this car from me when I was selling it.
And again specifically as it was the diesel model and not the petrol.


Car number 3

2013 Octavia vRS Combi diesel.

Bought this on 8th August 2013.

Somewhere around September 2014 I got a phone call from a guy he got my phone number from a friend of mine.

First apologizing if I would be offended by him getting my number and ringing me.
He asked if I had time to have a chat about the vRS "Estate" as he called it. I said "Sure"
He reslly only wanted to know was there anything to look out for id he was going to look at some of them.
I told him not in my experience but when they get older and the mileage clocks up the certainly some parts may need replacing.

He said "God no, I would want something pretty fresh, similar to you'r own one as I saw it passing in and out of the rugby club".
I asked him when was he thinking of changing to which he replied "Around next March or April"

I asked him would August suit him as I would be changing my car then,,
Again he asked was mine diesel.
Then asked for a price. I said I would have to check that out first but gave him a ball park figure.
He said "Spot on, put me down for it."

Came to me the following March to drive it.
Did so and was really impressed compared to his old car (BMW 320d)

Got back to my house, Asked me did I get a solid price.
I told him the figure, He shook my hand and said " It is a fair price for a magnificent car"
Put his hand in his pocket and handed me a wad of cash as a deposit.

Now I can't say much more than had any of those been petrols I seriously doubt I would have sold them so easily.

So lets look back on those for a minute

Purchase prices of all cars
Diesels were on all 3 cheaper to buy .

Not certain on differences but from memory the petrols were close on 2k more
Plus petrols were dearer to tax
Plus heavier on fuel.

So could someone tell me where I would have been better off with petrol cars?

Again this year I went for a diesel

Why?
Better resale
Much better fuel economy
Cheaper tax ( By a whole €10 ( )
and
Purchase price ?
the 1.4 tsi was almost €400 dearer than the 2.0 diesel.

Again I will bet the diesel will sell much better than the petrol one.

Toyotafanboi

So long story short, you sold your diesel cars so diesel is better?

jimgoose

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Remember...
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/08/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKCN0SX0CM20151108

"...mixed diesel with their motor oil to make them use less fuel..." - Jeepers headbanging Cripes on an NSU Quickly, why not just use 0W-20?? :pac:

vectra

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

So long story short, you sold your diesel cars so diesel is better?

wouldn't expect any different reply from you so won't waste my time trying to simplify it for you
At least it makes more sense than a silly post suggesting your car will not cheat on you. :rolleyes:

dr.fuzzenstein

jimgoose wrote: »

"...mixed diesel with their motor oil to make them use less fuel..." - Jeepers headbanging Cripes on an NSU Quickly, why not just use 0W-20?? :pac:

They could have just installed a Kolbenrückholfeder.

Toyotafanboi

vectra wrote: »

wouldn't expect any different reply from you so won't waste my time trying to simplify it for you
At least it makes more sense than a silly post suggesting your car will not cheat on you. :rolleyes:

My post was an intentional joke. Yourson the other hand.

I literally cant draw any other conclusion from it?

gctest50

jimgoose wrote: »

"...mixed diesel with their motor oil to make them use less fuel..." - Jeepers headbanging Cripes on an NSU Quickly, why not just use 0W-20?? :pac:

easy - caught with 0W-20 - it has no business in there

caught with diesel in the sump - blame it on the diesl pump seal / apprentice

jimgoose

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

They could have just installed a Kolbenrückholfeder.

Was zum Teufel!?! :pac:

vectra

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

My post was an intentional joke. Yourson the other hand.

I literally cant draw any other conclusion from it?

you must be on the wrong thread then,

Or are you just trolling my posts as per usual.

Toyotafanboi

vectra wrote: »

you must be on the wrong thread then,

Or are you just trolling my posts as per usual.

Definitely in the right thread.

You just wrote an essay in people buying your cars. I don't really appreciate what that gives to a pro diesel arguement, genuinely? People have bought me and approached me to buy some of my petrol cars too, does that make your arguement void?

Again, completely genuinely, if you could consolidate your point and post it in a parragraph or so, i'd love to try and understand your point of view on the matter.

listermint

vectra wrote: »

wouldn't expect any different reply from you so won't waste my time trying to simplify it for you
At least it makes more sense than a silly post suggesting your car will not cheat on you. :rolleyes:

Look you are basing the fact that you sold 3 cars quickly as the basis that Diesels are better.

However the facts remain that the 'right model' right spec and if it is looked after it will sell quickly.

I sold my 3.2 Petrol in about 2 weeks from date of advertise with 2 bidders on sale day.

colm_mcm

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah I did my calculation based on the 1.4 V 1.4 . I posted the 1.6 in error.

Would be great if you cold post the calculations in more detail.

mickdw

Vectra, there is no doubt that the resale on the diesels make them hard to avoid. I would say it is more of an issue even on your current car as a petrol vrs would have some following whereas a petrol passat would be worth alot less than diesel used.
That said, you had new cars. I imagine once those cars get up around 100k miles, anybody doing the tiny mileage you do well have their heart broken with egr and dpf etc. You then factor in flywheel etc that is likely to go on any diesel and you again have to say that maybe that person was better buying a petrol.
I agree with you. My parents always buy new passats in diesel and they swap them after 3 years or so with only 50k km. They do short journeys and drive very slowly and don't have issues but I know as miles build, they would start having issues.
They trade every 3 years for a reasonable sum. I believe a petrol would cost them more to change and more to fuel.
Would I recommend a diesel to them if buying used - No chance.
Having bought a turbo petrol myself back in 08, I'm more than happy with it from engine performance and reliability point of view. I find the small diesels terrible - 1.6 passat for example. The vibration through the clutch even when new is scandalous from the 4 cylinder when you are used to a petrol car.

dr.fuzzenstein

jimgoose wrote: »

Was zum Teufel!?! :pac:

http://etel-tuning.eu/leistungstuning/57-tuning-kolbenruckholfeder.html

It's a very useful tuning accessory that snaps back your piston and thereby increases engine efficiency by 29%!

This crowd also do gearbox sand, turbo hole covers, exhaust colorant and different flavour engine oil. :cool:

jimgoose

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

http://etel-tuning.eu/leistungstuning/57-tuning-kolbenruckholfeder.html

It's a very useful tuning accessory that snaps back your piston and thereby increases engine efficiency by 29%!

This crowd also do gearbox sand, turbo hole covers, exhaust colorant and different flavour engine oil. :cool:

I'm so there. I shall treasure it with my Petersen Shifter Kit. :cool:

vectra

Ah Lads.
If you would like to take the time to read a few posts above mine where members were saying the offset of the cost of a diesel car compared to petrol ones blah blah.
I was pointing out that in my personal experience
A) The Diesel cars were cheaper to buy
The Diesel cars were cheaper to tax
C) The Diesel cars were cheaper to run on fuel
D) The Cars sold like hot cakes >>> Not sure how they would have sold had they been petrol models.

How can anyone go and say that I or any buyer of a new Diesel car would be better off buying a petrol counterpart?

( Though I will admit there are peole that should not be driving at all never mind drive around in a diesel )

I just dot get ye guys at times.

Toyotafanboi

Have you done the maths yourself? What are your predicted savings vs a petrol passat in real world figures? I'l bet you never even done the maths.

colm_mcm

colm_mcm wrote: »

Would be great if you cold post the calculations in more detail.

I'll have to re do them just not now after 4 night shifts, 4.30 am to me now ! :eek:

MuppetCheck

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Have you done the maths yourself? What are your predicted savings vs a petrol passat in real world figures? I'l bet you never even done the maths.

To be fair, and as mickdw has also said, a petrol Passat class car isn't going to be as desirable as the diesel one to the majority of buyers. If your plan is to sell privately every two years like vectras appears to be you don't need to run the maths. It's going to be more cost effective getting the diesel version as even excluding the small fuel savings for that mileage the residual value will be much higher.

vintagevrs

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Have you done the maths yourself? What are your predicted savings vs a petrol passat in real world figures? I'l bet you never even done the maths.

If the car is cheaper to buy, tax, and is easier on fuel of course it makes sense for Vectra. He is buying new, and changes when the car is still under warranty so no worry over engine issues caused by low millage so to me, it sounds like he is buying the right car for him.

As mentioned, when the cars get on a bit and it is still doing short journeys, cold engine, low millage then the potential for repair bills can erode any savings at the pumps/motor tax office. This isn't an issue for Vectra.

The 2nd and 3rd buyer of his motor, if they continue to do short journeys may not see the benefit when they are left stranded on the hard shoulder on a wet evening.

dr.fuzzenstein

vectra wrote: »

Ah Lads.
If you would like to take the time to read a few posts above mine where members were saying the offset of the cost of a diesel car compared to petrol ones blah blah.
I was pointing out that in my personal experience
A) The Diesel cars were cheaper to buy
The Diesel cars were cheaper to tax
C) The Diesel cars were cheaper to run on fuel
D) The Cars sold like hot cakes >>> Not sure how they would have sold had they been petrol models.

How can anyone go and say that I or any buyer of a new Diesel car would be better off buying a petrol counterpart?

( Though I will admit there are peole that should not be driving at all never mind drive around in a diesel )

I just dot get ye guys at times.

It's a general Motors rule. Diesel is ALWAYS wrong, no matter what the circumstances, so for example a 1.0 petrol Yaris is ALWAYS better than ANY diesel.
If you are a granny driving 5 miles to the shops once a fortnight, the Yaris wins. But if you are a rep and drive 1000 km a week, the Yaris wins. If you have a large family with dogs and need a large runaround that also has to be a motorway long distance cruiser, the Yaris wins. If you need a diesel powered car to traverse this and neighbouring countries and the company issues you with a diesel only fuel card, the Yaris still wins.
So, petrol Yaris, better than ANY diesel car under ANY circumstances.
Wahey, the internet wins! This is why I drive my CMax and if it actually annoys people to the tune that they whinge and moan about that fact I drive a diesel on the internet, in the pub, to their mates, colleagues and family, it gives me a little warm, fuzzy feeling deep down inside. Thank you for caring enough to personally hate me, excuse me while I add some paraffin for extra smoke.

MuppetCheck

MuppetCheck wrote: »

To be fair, and as mickdw has also said, a petrol Passat class car isn't going to be as desirable as the diesel one to the majority of buyers. If your plan is to sell privately every two years like vectras appears to be you don't need to run the maths. It's going to be more cost effective getting the diesel version as even excluding the small fuel savings for that mileage the residual value will be much higher.

I happen to agree that the resale value in a Passat would be higher in a TDI and probably the A4, sized cars also.

It's just the perception that these cars have to be diesel.

Have to say I haven't seen a newer Gen A4 or Passat in a long time without that poxy TDI badge !

dr.fuzzenstein

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

This is why I drive my CMax and if it actually annoys people to the tune that they whinge and moan about that fact I drive a diesel on the internet, in the pub, to their mates, colleagues and family, it gives me a little warm, fuzzy feeling deep down inside. Thank you for caring enough to personally hate me, excuse me while I add some paraffin for extra smoke.

You'll choke on that smoke in Hell !

MuppetCheck

Deleted User wrote: »

I happen to agree that the resale value in a Passat would be higher in a TDI and probably the A4, sized cars also.

It's just the perception that these cars have to be diesel.

Have to say I haven't seen a newer Gen A4 or Passat in a long time without that poxy TDI badge !

It's the class of car they are, the majority are workhorses.

Although if half the people complaining about the badge on the back put their money where their mouth is and bought a new petrol version of one of them rather than telling other people how to spend their own it would solve some of the problem:pac:

vectra

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Have you done the maths yourself? What are your predicted savings vs a petrol passat in real world figures? I'l bet you never even done the maths.

Yes
A 1.4 petrol is dearer
Heavier on fuel
Would be pretty gutless in comparison
And in no way would be ad valuable come resale time.
That my dear man is simple logic.
You are so adamant to prove me wrong then you sit and don't he math.

MuppetCheck

MuppetCheck wrote: »

if half the people complaining about the badge on the back put their money where their mouth is and bought a new petrol version of one of them rather than telling other people how to spend their own it would solve some of the problem:pac:

Me buy petrol or Diesel ?

Hachiko

Deleted User wrote: »

If 2nd hand petrols are cheaper then wouldn't it make a lot more sense for people to buy them rather than the diesel ?

No because people want to save a few hundred euro on cheaper diesel tax over a petrol.

vectra

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If 2nd hand petrols are cheaper then wouldn't it make a lot more sense for people to buy them rather than the diesel ?

There could be a problem there as the diesel bashers on here won't buy new petrol cars.
So round and round we go.

MuppetCheck

Hachiko wrote: »

No because people want to save a few hundred euro on cheaper diesel tax over a petrol.

I think that line is spun a lot but does it really ring true when most equivalent petrols are in the same or similar band. It may have been true in 2008 but its the diesel resale is pushing this thing now. And even that's changing a bit.

MetzgerMeister

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

Anyone see the article on the EPA's website about how electric vehicles account for 80% of yearly worldwide pollution due to the manufacturing stages?

No, and I find that hard to believe considering batteries in consumer devices around much more than electric cars.

And the rest of EV production is pretty much equal to ICE.

pablo128

I went onto a site there for the specs of my car, and its petrol equivalent. My car according to it, does 48 mpg and 280nm of torque. The 2.0 vvti engined car does 36 mpg and has 196nm of torque.

More pull and cheaper to run. It's a no brainer.

Hachiko

diesels have good torque but down low in the rev band, they run out of grunt and petrols will rev much higher and provide a far more exciting drive, with less harmful emissions, and less maintenance. No stupid particle filters, deleting this that and the other thing, remapping to blow more black soot into the atmosphere, I seen many a 520/530d drivers booting it and destroying the place in the process with crap -- the drivers think its cool i suppose. The very neat thing about my Lexus is the auto recirculate, it will switch to recirculate mode when it detects this smog from the sensor in the front, thus keeping your cabin fresh. The accuracy is uncanny.

bit of a no brainer to me.