Why no QBC on the South Link?

cgcsb

I ask this question as a Dubliner who spends some time in Cork. It just strikes me as odd because in Dublin when there is a wide radial road, there is universally going to be a bus lane there. One of the biggest issues facing Dublin Bus is the narrow pinch points in the City where buses must share space with cars. Cork is blessed with a 4 lane road from Blackpool all the way to the Airport.

In fact Cork could easily have a QBC/BRT/Luas with no space constraints running along the South Link-Merchants Quay-Leitrim Street. Why not do it? it's an easy win for reducing traffic, no tight spots or complicated design solutions required. Have Park and Ride in Blackpool and at the N40 and it's done. Thoughts?

jimgoose

Because here in Cork we do not see the necessity for poor people to get where they're going faster than regular, normal folk.

cgcsb

Any serious comments? Ye all spend so much time giving out about traffic and there's one very simple solution, the same thing could be done from Wilton to Town via UCC although with a bit more creativity, road widening and tweeking. Throw in some park and rides and start congestion charging, done. It's just a whole lot simpler than the transport issues affecting Dublin. Why not take the simple steps to improve the situation.

jimgoose

cgcsb wrote: »

Any serious comments? Ye all spend so much time giving out about traffic and there's one very simple solution, the same thing could be done from Wilton to Town via UCC although with a bit more creativity, road widening and tweeking. Throw in some park and rides and start congestion charging, done. It's just a whole lot simpler than the transport issues affecting Dublin. Why not take the simple steps to improve the situation.

Because Cork city-centre is, like Dublin city-centre only faster, dying. The reason it's dying is that between the bus-lanes we already have, huge pedestrianised areas and daft one-way systems, people do not conduct business in the city-centre because you can't get in or get out of the damn thing. Turning over even more road space to the sort of thing you describe would kill the city-centre stone cold dead within five years.

jimgoose

Burger joints and pound-shops. Gangs of feral boys pucking the heads off each other on Academy street at 3pm on a sunny Saturday afternoon. No business being transacted, aside from tourists and half-wits arsing around on bicycles supping coffee. Welcome to the brave new world of chic, urban transport. It's here, folks.

cgcsb

A comprehensive quality bus system would get more people into the commercial core than any number of cars, this has been demonstrated time and time again across the western world. It's a very small town attitude to think that the car is the only valid way to get around and small townism is, I suspect, the problem here. Does Cork want to be a town or a City?

By the way there would still be a parallel car lane if the measures I suggest were implemented along with P&R facilities to assist motorists. Infact more car users would be able to access the City Centre quicker.

As an aside, Dublin City Centre is certainly not 'dying' far from it in fact it's never been more thronged with footfall, despite (or rather because of) numerous anti car measures.

namloc1980

jimgoose wrote: »

Because Cork city-centre is, like Dublin city-centre only faster, dying. The reason it's dying is that between the bus-lanes we already have, huge pedestrianised areas and daft one-way systems, people do not conduct business in the city-centre because you can't get in or get out of the damn thing. Turning over even more road space to the sort of thing you describe would kill the city-centre stone cold dead within five years.

Some serious hyperbole there. You can't get in or out of town? Really? I can only suggest you're doing it wrong. The world over pedestrianisation encourages people in not the opposite. Yet many people in Ireland can't get over their carcentric obsession.

Do we really want to go back to the days of cars clogging up Oliver Plunkett St or hundreds of cars parked in the middle of Patk St or narrow footpaths to accommodate ever more cars? That isn't sustainable and unfortunately many people are obsessed with cars and can see no viable alternative. For me I love getting the train into town from East Cork everyday and breezing past all the cars with single occupants crawling along at Tivoli. Then hop onto a Cork Bike and cycle to work in 4 minutes. More please!

Fabio

cgcsb wrote: »

A comprehensive quality bus system would get more people into the commercial core than any number of cars, this has been demonstrated time and time again across the western world. It's a very small town attitude to think that the car is the only valid way to get around and small townism is, I suspect, the problem here. Does Cork want to be a town or a City?

By the way there would still be a parallel car lane if the measures I suggest were implemented along with P&R facilities to assist motorists. Infact more car users would be able to access the City Centre quicker.

As an aside, Dublin City Centre is certainly not 'dying' far from it in fact it's never been more thronged with footfall, despite (or rather because of) numerous anti car measures.

I'm always surprised by the lack of bus lanes we have in Cork.

namloc1980

jimgoose wrote: »

Burger joints and pound-shops. Gangs of feral boys pucking the heads off each other on Academy street at 3pm on a sunny Saturday afternoon. No business being transacted, aside from tourists and half-wits arsing around on bicycles supping coffee. Welcome to the brave new world of chic, urban transport. It's here, folks.

Where is it that you see this happening? Certainly not in Cork anyway.

"No business being transacted". Really? None at all? And according to you the city is populated by boys having fist fights, tourists and people on bikes. Quite the imagination you got there as it certainly doesn't reflect reality.

TheChizler

A four lane road from Blackpool to the airport?

cgcsb

Fabio wrote: »

I'm always surprised by the lack of bus lanes we have in Cork.

I know, even on very wide roads, there doesn't seem to be many.

cgcsb

TheChizler wrote: »

A four lane road from Blackpool to the airport?

Well I suppose it's 3 lanes on Merchant's Anderson's quay which can easily be solved, but basically from the South Link-Albert St-Quays-Leitrim Street-Blackpool, you have more than sufficient space for a high quality BRT-Luas route.

the beer revolu

jimgoose wrote: »

Because Cork city-centre is, like Dublin city-centre only faster, dying. The reason it's dying is that between the bus-lanes we already have, huge pedestrianised areas and daft one-way systems, people do not conduct business in the city-centre because you can't get in or get out of the damn thing. Turning over even more road space to the sort of thing you describe would kill the city-centre stone cold dead within five years.

jimgoose wrote: »

Burger joints and pound-shops. Gangs of feral boys pucking the heads off each other on Academy street at 3pm on a sunny Saturday afternoon. No business being transacted, aside from tourists and half-wits arsing around on bicycles supping coffee. Welcome to the brave new world of chic, urban transport. It's here, folks.

What a complete load of retrograde bollix.
Cork city is in the middle of a remarkable revival - it's on the up.
Obviously, large multinational companies like Superdry, Nandos and Starbucks set up for the first time in a dying city centre.

Have you ever been to Dublin? (apart from a match?)

Your notions on modern transport are laughable.

I'm a car driver, a pedestrian, and a cyclist and I live in Cork City Centre without any problems. I can't wait for more cycle lanes, more bus lanes and more park and rides - it will make it even easier for me to get about my vibrant city.

mikeym

More cycle lanes to inconvenience all the motorists.

No wonder I stay clear of the City Centre.

I have no choice but to use my car and Public Transport has gone from average to poor.

cgcsb

mikeym wrote: »

More cycle lanes to inconvenience all the motorists.

No wonder I stay clear of the City Centre.

I have no choice but to use my car and Public Transport has gone from average to poor.

How parochial of you. Surely a few high quality brt routes would dramatically improve public transport and therefore solve your fear of cyclists?

lisasimpson

The city is slowly but surely improving..albert quay coming on stream in a few month, a few new shops opened in town, if they could get the hold up on the old cinema sorted its well on the way, coffee shops all be it starbucks opening later in the evening. a few more park and rides would be v good for the city but cant see them happening soon

Spanish Eyes

Ah come on, once Dublin gets its act together with the car free zones and the cycle/pedestrian ways, everyone else will follow!

Including the Rebel County/city.

Cars are just making life so awful for everyone. And I am a car driver myself, but I cannot remember the last time I drove and parked in Dublin City over the last two years. Too clogged and too expensive altogether.

But I know some need cars for their type of work, they are not on the target list. Everyone else is, according to the new Dublin City Manager anyway lol.

Cork is a great city, I love it. But it is impossible to get around either in a bus or a car. (Cobh and Midleton rail lines excepted, they are good).

jimgoose

the beer revolu wrote: »

What a complete load of retrograde bollix.
Cork city is in the middle of a remarkable revival - it's on the up.
Obviously, large multinational companies like Superdry, Nandos and Starbucks set up for the first time in a dying city centre.

Have you ever been to Dublin? (apart from a match?)

Your notions on modern transport are laughable.

I'm a car driver, a pedestrian, and a cyclist and I live in Cork City Centre without any problems. I can't wait for more cycle lanes, more bus lanes and more park and rides - it will make it even easier for me to get about my vibrant city.

I'm delighted to hear it, and more power to you. I find the city centre awkward and difficult, and for comparatively little return. My personal view is that it, like Dublin, would do rather better if the motorist weren't treated like Satan. I think pedestrianisation is way overdone, with vast swathes of street closed to vehicular traffic. This doesn't exactly facilitate buses either. I don't think even more dedicated bus lane space is a fantastic idea, I'd be more for the approach of improving traffic flow for all vehicles, including buses.

I don't really do the "match" thing, the last time I was in Dublin was a few months ago. I came in the M3 and down to Smithfield via Phibsborough, adroitly dodging the electric trains.

kub

cgcsb wrote:

In fact Cork could easily have a QBC/BRT/Luas with no space constraints running along the South Link-Merchants Quay-Leitrim Street. Why not do it? it's an easy win for reducing traffic, no tight spots or complicated design solutions required. Have Park and Ride in Blackpool and at the N40 and it's done. Thoughts?

cgcsb wrote:

I ask this question as a Dubliner who spends some time in Cork. It just strikes me as odd because in Dublin when there is a wide radial road, there is universally going to be a bus lane there. One of the biggest issues facing Dublin Bus is the narrow pinch points in the City where buses must share space with cars. Cork is blessed with a 4 lane road from Blackpool all the way to the Airport.

You are aware as a Dubliner that there is a big hill going up to Cork airport, so unless your Luas trams are like those ones in San Francisco, then happy days.

You metioned a 4 laned road from Blackpool to the South Link, you might let me in on where that is please because I am on Cork streets and roads day in day out and I have no idea where this is.
What you are suggesting is great but it just is not practical.
There is a massive difference with the public transport infastructure between the two cities, also Dublin is relatively flat where as Cork is shaped like a bowl.

the beer revolu

I always find it very funny when people who are wedded to their cars complain about measures to reduce the amount of traffic in the city centre and declare that they will no longer go to the city in their cars.
Taa Daah!
It works!

Bacchus

jimgoose wrote: »

I'd be more for the approach of improving traffic flow for all vehicles, including buses.

So... you don't want more cycle lanes to make it easier to get around city, you don't want dedicated bus lanes to make it easier to get around the city and you don't want more pedestrianized areas to make it safer and more inviting for pedestrians to walk around the city (Pedestrians being the ones that walk into shops and spend money. When's the last time you drove your car into Pennies?).... BUT you want "improved traffic flow for vehicles" and this is what is better for the city center. How does this work? How do you achieve this very broad/vague goal? What's the objective here? Get more cars into the city? If that's the case, then any small improvement you make to traffic flow is going to be undone by all these extra cars you are drawing into the city center. Where does that leave us?

Objectively, looking at trying to improve the traffic flows means two things (that immediately spring to mind). Remove all on street parking so you can have more lanes in the city. That's not really practical though as a lot of street parking is there for residents. Second, seeing as you are bringing in all these new cars and removing street parking, new multi-story car parks will have to be built. They can't be built outside the city as this would mean relying on public transport to get into the city (which would defeat your whole point) so we need more multistories in the city center. Unfortunately, I've no idea where there is space for something like this. Graftan Street maybe? At the end of the day though all you are doing is clogging up the street with more and more cars and we'll be in an endless cycle of trying to accommodate cars getting into and out of the city quickly.

Personally, aside from rush hour morning and evening traffic, I've never had a problem with driving through the city or finding a parking space more than a 5-10 walk from the city center.

cgcsb

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Ah come on, once Dublin gets its act together with the car free zones and the cycle/pedestrian ways, everyone else will follow!

I do hope so the detailed plans for Dublin are to be published in the new year. I hope they aren't watered down and there's a full car and taxi ban on college green and a fullcar ban on City Quay and Bachelor's Walk.

cgcsb

kub wrote: »

You are aware as a Dubliner that there is a big hill going up to Cork airport, so unless your Luas trams are like those ones in San Francisco, then happy days.

I am familliar with the gentle slope up to the airport it's certainly nothing Dublin's luas can't handle, see stephen's lane in Dublin for an exampe

kub wrote: »

You metioned a 4 laned road from Blackpool to the South Link, you might let me in on where that is please because I am on Cork streets and roads day in day out and I have no idea where this is.

There is a 3 lane section on the quays but it is 4 lanes most of the way.

kub wrote: »

What you are suggesting is great but it just is not practical.
There is a massive difference with the public transport infastructure between the two cities

Not sure what you mean, what I propose would greatly improve the public transport infrastructure of Cork, and help bridge this gap.

cgcsb

jimgoose wrote: »

I think pedestrianisation is way overdone, with vast swathes of street closed to vehicular traffic.

I can assure you pedestrianisation in Dublin, and I believe Cork also, is very much underdone, try to walk between Dublin's main shopping areas Henry-Grafton Street, you'll feel like a battery hen in a coup wedged up against dual carriageways for most of it.

jimgoose wrote: »

I don't think even more dedicated bus lane space is a fantastic idea, I'd be more for the approach of improving traffic flow for all vehicles, including buses.

That doesn't work, tried it in the 1970s across the western world, an abject failure in 100% of cases that resulted in the destruction of numerous urban communities in order to plow motorways through them. See Belfast as an example, they annihilated thriving areas to build the westlink, same all over the UK. Dublin City Council even encouraged dereliction around Clanbrassil st/Christchurch so it could clear buildings and build a dual carriageway.

Anyone with any sort of background in planning/engineering will tell you that more cars in old cities = disaster which is why Dublin City Council is now going about reducing car access. Indeed car free cities will be commonplace around the EU by the middle of the century.

kub

cgcsb wrote: »

I am familliar with the gentle slope up to the airport it's certainly nothing Dublin's luas can't handle, see stephen's lane in Dublin for an exampe




There is a 3 lane section on the quays but it is 4 lanes most of the way.



Not sure what you mean, what I propose would greatly improve the public transport infrastructure of Cork, and help bridge this gap.

I would not describe the road up to Cork airport as a gentle slope, i also cannot see something like Luas being needed going up to Cork airport for a long long time, if ever.
The 3 lane section on 'The Quays' is Merchants Quay, the 3 lanes are going from East to West. When they get to the junction with Patricks Street, the left lane is for Patricks St, The middle for straight on and the right for straight on or right over the bridge.
The other lane which is contraflow is a Bus Lane, so what would you propose there?
All of the other 4 laned roads you mentioned are all dual roads going in opposite directions, the vast amount of outer lanes are for right turns.

Now you refer to public transport infrastructure, it is only in the recent past that Bus Eireann/ NTA have allocated double deck buses to various city routes in Cork. They were on all routes between the 1950's and up until 1992 when the last of the green bombardier double deckers were withdrawn from service.
All of these double deck buses were replaced by single deck ones and passenger figures fell away, so people chose to use their cars and it is very hard to get them back out of them.
Cork is not actually hard to get around in a car, you just need to know your way and i don't mean with sat nav's.

cgcsb

kub wrote: »

I would not describe the road up to Cork airport as a gentle slope, i also cannot see something like Luas being needed going up to Cork airport for a long long time, if ever.
The 3 lane section on 'The Quays' is Merchants Quay, the 3 lanes are going from East to West. When they get to the junction with Patricks Street, the left lane is for Patricks St, The middle for straight on and the right for straight on or right over the bridge.
The other lane which is contraflow is a Bus Lane, so what would you propose there?
All of the other 4 laned roads you mentioned are all dual roads going in opposite directions, the vast amount of outer lanes are for right turns.

Obviously it means changing the lanes and road layout.

kub wrote: »

Now you refer to public transport infrastructure, it is only in the recent past that Bus Eireann/ NTA have allocated double deck buses to various city routes in Cork. They were on all routes between the 1950's and up until 1992 when the last of the green bombardier double deckers were withdrawn from service.
All of these double deck buses were replaced by single deck ones and passenger figures fell away, so people chose to use their cars and it is very hard to get them back out of them.
Cork is not actually hard to get around in a car, you just need to know your way and i don't mean with sat nav's.

I'm still not sure what your point is. Public transport is poor, what I suggest would be an improvement.

AugustusMinimus

Cork could probably support 1 or maybe 2 Luas lines.

The most feasibly would be Ballincollig - City Centre - Mahon Point.

Development is heavy along this corridor and a line would take in a lot of key stops such as CIT, UCC, CUH, the new Science Park, Pairc Hi Chaoimh, Mahon Point Business Park and Shopping Centre.

The only other one that's current feasible would be a spur off this to go to Douglas and then possibly the airport.

If Cork gets BRT it needs to be built in a way that it's easily upgradeable to light rail IMO.

Balmed Out

Is the bus system used a lot now ? I only use it the odd time but back when I did rely on it I found it painful. At times a scheduled bus would never come and at other times it could be very late or even very early. At one stage I lived by the first stop and could see it from my house. It could depart any where from ten minutes early to five late. As soon as I could afford to I got a car. If that kind of thing is still the norm then no point investing before it's sorted

cgcsb

Balmed Out wrote: »

Is the bus system used a lot now ? I only use it the odd time but back when I did rely on it I found it painful. At times a scheduled bus would never come and at other times it could be very late or even very early. At one stage I lived by the first stop and could see it from my house. It could depart any where from ten minutes early to five late. As soon as I could afford to I got a car. If that kind of thing is still the norm then no point investing before it's sorted

Delays are largely due to having buses compete with cars for road space. Providing more dedicated road space to buses means a more reliable service.