Rent Increase thread

Jazzzman

handlemaster wrote: »

He hasnt increased it in 2015 already so it's not relevant even if legislation were in acted

If for arguments sake the legislation was introduced in November, then would we not have been covered by the new law of not being able to increase rent < 2 years?

Gumbo

Jazzzman wrote: »

If for arguments sake the legislation was introduced in November, then would we not have been covered by the new law of not being able to increase rent < 2 years?

No, just the law that stops more than one rent increase within 12 months.

Arbiter of Good Taste

Jazzzman wrote: »

If for arguments sake the legislation was introduced in November, then would we not have been covered by the new law of not being able to increase rent < 2 years?

No. The two years only applies if the rent had been raised in 2015.

Lux23

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

No. The two years only applies if the rent had been raised in 2015.

So my landlord can increase the rent in June 2016 as we only moved in during June 2015?

Paulw

Lux23 wrote: »

So my landlord can increase the rent in June 2016 as we only moved in during June 2015?

Yes, correct.

4ensic15

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

No. The two years only applies if the rent had been raised in 2015.

|t also applies if the rent was set in 2015. That is if it ever becomes law.

4ensic15

Paulw wrote: »

Yes, correct.

Wrong.

Arbiter of Good Taste

4ensic15 wrote: »

|t also applies if the rent was set in 2015. That is if it ever becomes law.

I was responding to the poster whose LL had raised their rent in Nov 2014

cerastes

So if the rent was set and signed in 2014 but the lease was to start in 2015, can an increase be made?
Even if the lease were signed on January 1st 2015 can (shouldn't) the landlord give their notification 28 days in advance of the the first day of the second year of lease? Using the 1st of January as an example, wouldn't that mean the landlord should give notice by the the 4th of December?

Selik

cerastes wrote: »

So if the rent was set and signed in 2014 but the lease was to start in 2015, can an increase be made?
Even if the lease were signed on January 1st 2015 can (shouldn't) the landlord give their notification 28 days in advance of the the first day of the second year of lease? Using the 1st of January as an example, wouldn't that mean the landlord should give notice by the the 4th of December?

I'm still waiting on a concrete answer myself to this question and for the last 3 weeks between here and the Property Pin there has yet to be definitive clarification.

The question really should be - Does a rent review in advance of a change of rent count as the last rent increase date or is it the actual month of the increase. It has to be one or the other and if it's the actual month then there needs to be further clarification if the actual debit date is to considered the increase date. That doesn't really make sense to me if that's the case as a rent review legally has to be 28 days minimum before the increase date.

Anybody???

April 73

The answer to that is very important for anyone who reviewed rent late in 2014 with the increase kicking in on Jan 1st 2015.

Wish someone knew the answer!

gizmo555

Giles wrote: »

I'm still waiting on a concrete answer myself to this question and for the last 3 weeks between here and the Property Pin there has yet to be definitive clarification . . .

Anybody???

April 73 wrote: »

The answer to that is very important for anyone who reviewed rent late in 2014 with the increase kicking in on Jan 1st 2015.

Wish someone knew the answer!

Nobody knows except Alan Kelly, and he's not telling. This uncertainty which he has personally created is a major factor in driving up rents. No landlord wants to be caught out when whatever brainwave he finally gets Michael Noonan to agree to comes into effect.

Selik

April 73 wrote: »

The answer to that is very important for anyone who reviewed rent late in 2014 with the increase kicking in on Jan 1st 2015.

Wish someone knew the answer!

Exactly, I'm in that exact situation with my tenants and neither of us know where we all stand. Will of course be fully complying with whatever the regulations are but we really need the detail here and there's simply none as of yet - just peoples opinions which all seem to differ, obviously.

4ensic15

April 73 wrote: »

The answer to that is very important for anyone who reviewed rent late in 2014 with the increase kicking in on Jan 1st 2015.

Wish someone knew the answer!

Notification can be given now of an increase to take place on 1st Jan 2016. the legislation has not been enacted and there is a presumption against retrospectivity. That would be the legal position but no doubt the PRTB will be asked to rule on this afterwards. The trouble is that a landlord refused an increase would have to go to the High Court in order to overturn any adverse finding by the PRTB. Unless one of the bigger multiple landlords decide its worth it, there will never be complete legal certainty about this.

tharmor

Paulw wrote:

Yes, correct.

Thats not true....if its anew lease..rents will not increase for 2 years afaik !

Selik

Well.... the Residential Tenancies Bill is being signed into law today, does anybody know where I can read the actual bill itself?

April 73

It looks like the Dáil deputies had difficulty understanding what was going on themselves yesterday!
Seems to me from a very quick skim of those proceedings that any rent notification already given & valid under the old law (12 months since last review, valid notice period, market rate) will stand. Open to correction of course.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2015-12-01a.466

cerastes

April 73 wrote: »

It looks like the Dáil deputies had difficulty understanding what was going on themselves yesterday!
Seems to me from a very quick skim of those proceedings that any rent notification already given & valid under the old law (12 months since last review, valid notice period, market rate) will stand. Open to correction of course.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2015-12-01a.466

From a very quick skim myself, I interpreted that the 12 months notice period does not stand? Also open to correction. I think it would be very good if the annual review remained as this has put a serious concern into the minds of landlords.
It would have been much better if any legislation changes improved the ability to deal with bad landlords and bad tenants promptly.

April 73

It looks like the 12 months doesn't stand post-amendments to the bill but anyone who notified a rent increase before the amendments under the old 12 months review period does stand.
So from now on its 24 months but prior to the amendments being signed into law 12 months stood.
Again - only my interpretation.

4ensic15

Giles wrote: »

Well.... the Residential Tenancies Bill is being signed into law today, does anybody know where I can read the actual bill itself?

It won't be a Bill after it is signed.

cerastes

4ensic15 wrote: »

It won't be a Bill after it is signed.

So is it signed into law yet as an Act or SI? and when did this occur? or has it occurred yet?
I'm trying to determine when it will or has become effective.

Selik

April 73 wrote: »

It looks like the 12 months doesn't stand post-amendments to the bill but anyone who notified a rent increase before the amendments under the old 12 months review period does stand.
So from now on its 24 months but prior to the amendments being signed into law 12 months stood.
Again - only my interpretation.

Here is the official document and while it gives scenarios as examples, it STILL doesn't clear up the issue of whether a notice to increase before the act came in is valid even if the increase doesn't kick in until 2016 - unless I'm missing something?

http://www.prtb.ie/docs/default-source/press-releases/stabilising-rents-boosting-supply.pdf?sfvrsn=0

I might just call the PRTB tomorrow and see if they can give me straight answer!

JaMarcusHustle

Finding it hard to get a definitive answer on this but just wondering - lease signed in January 2015. Coming up to the end of that lease now, we want to stay on in the apartment but can the landlord increase our rent? Not sure how (or if at all) the 2 year rent freeze that came into law last week is applicable. We haven't received any notification, just wondering so we can know what to expect thanks.

cerastes

Anyone know if its been enacted?

Selik

cerastes wrote: »

Anyone know if its been enacted?

I spoke to somebody in the PRTB yesterday and she said that the legislation still hasn't been signed into law yet.... and she didn't know when. Go figure!

ash xxx

cerastes wrote: »

Anyone know if its been enacted?

It was apparently enacted on Friday night, I know the President signed it into law on Friday. I had been anxiously emailing Alan Kelly's office trying to find out, as our lease is due for renewal in January.

See Indo article here

Selik

ash xxx wrote: »

It was apparently enacted on Friday night, I know the President signed it into law on Friday. I had been anxiously emailing Alan Kelly's office trying to find out, as our lease is due for renewal in January.

See Indo article here

So the PRTB are talking complete rubbish then? She woman I spoke to was genuinely very insistent that the bill hadn't yet been signed despite reports to the contrary, like that Times article.

slayerking

Giles wrote: »

So the PRTB are talking complete rubbish then? She woman I spoke to was genuinely very insistent that the bill hadn't yet been signed despite reports to the contrary, like that Times article.

There's also an update on citizens information website stating the new legislation was signed into law on the 4th, but they haven't updated the website yet.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/rent_increases.html

4ensic15

slayerking wrote: »

There's also an update on citizens information website stating the new legislation was signed into law on the 4th, but they haven't updated the website yet.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/rent_increases.html

Page 1902.
http://www.irisoifigiuil.ie/currentissues/IR081215.pdf

joxer1988

http://www.prtb.ie/media-research/news-centre/latest-news/2015/12/04/new-amendments-to-the-legislation-on-rent-increases-and-notices-of-termination

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/new-rules-on-restricting-rent-increases.html

Selik

Well finally some clarity:

(From The Residential Tenancies (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 2012)

a) The duration allowed between rent reviews has been extended from 12 months to 24 months. This change will be put in place for 4 years, after which the duration between reviews will go back to 12 months.
A Landlord can only increase the rent once in any 24 month period, and cannot increase it within 12 months of the commencement of the tenancy.
Note – A landlord who has legitimately commenced a rent review prior to the enactment of the new legislation (Dec 4th) is entitled to complete that statutory review process.

joxer1988

Giles wrote: »

Well finally some clarity:

(From The Residential Tenancies (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 2012)

a) The duration allowed between rent reviews has been extended from 12 months to 24 months. This change will be put in place for 4 years, after which the duration between reviews will go back to 12 months.
A Landlord can only increase the rent once in any 24 month period, and cannot increase it within 12 months of the commencement of the tenancy.
Note – A landlord who has legitimately commenced a rent review prior to the enactment of the new legislation (Dec 4th) is entitled to complete that statutory review process.

I think this ^bolded part may be incorrect as section 20 of the RTA now should be:

20.—(1) Subject to subsection (3), a review of the rent under the tenancy of a dwelling may not occur—

(a) more frequently than once in each period of 12 months, nor

(b) in the period of 12 months beginning on the commencement of the tenancy.

(2) Subsection (1) has effect notwithstanding any provision to the contrary in the lease or tenancy agreement concerned.

(3) Subsection (1) does not apply despite the fact that a period of less than 12 months has elapsed from—

(a) the last review of the rent under the tenancy, or

(b) the commencement of the tenancy,

if, in that period—

(i) a substantial change in the nature of the accommodation provided under the tenancy occurs, and

(ii) the rent under the tenancy, were it to be set immediately after that change, would, by virtue of that change, be different to what was the market rent for the tenancy at the time of that last review or the commencement of the tenancy, as the case may be.

plus the Section 20 amendment:

(1) Section 20 of the Principal Act is amended by inserting the following subsections
after subsection (3):
“(4) The references to ‘12 months’ in—
(a) paragraphs (a) and (b) of subsection (1), and
(b) subsection (3),
shall, for the duration of the relevant period, be construed as
references to ‘24 months’.

So basically, where it said "12 months", it now says "24 months" - for the next 4 years.

Can anyone verify for me?

Jaketherake

JaMarcusHustle wrote: »

Finding it hard to get a definitive answer on this but just wondering - lease signed in January 2015. Coming up to the end of that lease now, we want to stay on in the apartment but can the landlord increase our rent? Not sure how (or if at all) the 2 year rent freeze that came into law last week is applicable. We haven't received any notification, just wondering so we can know what to expect thanks.

According to the examples the text the LL cant raise your rent in Jan 2016

Read example 2.

http://www.prtb.ie/docs/default-source/press-releases/stabilising-rents-boosting-supply.pdf?sfvrsn=0

Jaketherake

So now it looks like if a LL has to give 3 months notice he has to guess what the market rate will be then.

unless it works like this
lets say he is increasing the rent on 1st April.
On 1st Jan he gives notice that the rent will be increasing on 1st April in line with market rates.
So he waits until closer to April to say how much the rent will actually be as he cant possibly know what it should be, nor provide proof of what it will be when he gives the notice.

Or does he just see what the rate of change has been and use that to predict what the rent will be in 3 months time and stick that in the samples he is sending the PRTB.

This whole thing is very poorly thought out.

Selik

Ok so my tenants have been onto Threshold and this is what they have said:


Thank you for contacting Threshold.

New legislation came into effect on December 4th 2015 stating that rent can now only be reviewed once ever 24 months and there must be written notice with a period of 90 days. Therefore as your rent was increased in January 2015 your rent CANNOT now be increased again until January 2017 you are covered by new legislation to avoid a rent increase in the coming year. This is not negotiable, this is the law. As your rent review is not due until January and the legislation was passed in December your landlord must now wait until January 2017.

I had a feeling things would go down this road! They are referring to the rent review being in January but the review has never been in January - always November/December with the increase kicking in the following January.

I might give them a call tomorrow as this directly contradicts what the PRTB have said to me and also the general consensus on the legislation.

Jaketherake

Giles wrote: »

Ok so my tenants have been onto Threshold and this is what they have said:


Thank you for contacting Threshold.

New legislation came into effect on December 4th 2015 stating that rent can now only be reviewed once ever 24 months and there must be written notice with a period of 90 days. Therefore as your rent was increased in January 2015 your rent CANNOT now be increased again until January 2017 you are covered by new legislation to avoid a rent increase in the coming year. This is not negotiable, this is the law. As your rent review is not due until January and the legislation was passed in December your landlord must now wait until January 2017.

I had a feeling things would go down this road! They are referring to the rent review being in January but the review has never been in January - always November/December with the increase kicking in the following January.

I might give them a call tomorrow as this directly contradicts what the PRTB have said to me and also the general consensus on the legislation.

There was a program on RTE where threshold advised someone who was being evicted to overhold. I wouldnt believe a word out of threshold. They just make it up as they go along.

Selik

Yeah I'm aware that Threshold are known for being a bit fast and loose with their advice alright.

I'd rather not go down the PRTB route if at all possible (never had to before) but if I'm left with no other option then so be it.

Is there anybody here who can specifically quote the new legislation where it states that a legitimate rent review before the act came in still stands? I've searched the actual bill itself (using keywords) and found some vague references but hard to really make sense of them.

Sarn

I would agree with the PRTB's advice. I can't see how a legitimate rent review that was initiated before the amendment to the legislation came in to force can be ignored. Threshold's interpretation does not seem to be correct. If you can demonstrate that you have always given the same notice period for the rent review then there should be no issue. That's speaking as a tenant.

4ensic15

Sarn wrote: »

I would agree with the PRTB's advice. I can't see how a legitimate rent review that was initiated before the amendment to the legislation came in to force can be ignored. Threshold's interpretation does not seem to be correct. If you can demonstrate that you have always given the same notice period for the rent review then there should be no issue. That's speaking as a tenant.

It all turns on the meaning of review. Review means (in this context) an increase. It does not mean consider or notify.

Selik

4ensic15 wrote: »

It all turns on the meaning of review. Review means (in this context) an increase. It does not mean consider or notify.

Exactly, however there doesn't seem to a definitive answer on this anywhere. Can anybody answer with direct reference to the bill itself?

April 73

Giles wrote: »

Well finally some clarity:

(From The Residential Tenancies (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 2012)

a) The duration allowed between rent reviews has been extended from 12 months to 24 months. This change will be put in place for 4 years, after which the duration between reviews will go back to 12 months.
A Landlord can only increase the rent once in any 24 month period, and cannot increase it within 12 months of the commencement of the tenancy.
Note – A landlord who has legitimately commenced a rent review prior to the enactment of the new legislation (Dec 4th) is entitled to complete that statutory review process.

This sounds to me as though in cases where notice of a rent change has been given prior to Dec 4th that it is valid to proceed.
But it's not completely clear. What exactly is a rent review? The actual date the rent will change or notice of the intention to change?
I think it must be notice of intention to change as that gives time for the tenant to dispute the rise with the PRTB as part of the "statutory review process".

AnthonyOD1987

Quick question that may have been asked in another thread, I currently rent a house where the lease is a 12 month term. I understand that the rent can only be increased once every 24 months, seen as the lease is only 12 months could the landlord come back when the lease expired next December, set a new lease then with increased rent . technically could this be classified as a new lease?

tharmor

Folks I am in process of signing a new lease......the lease agreement document is some template dated 2005.....hope its fine or do I need to get a latest template ?

Can anyone shade light please ? TIA !

madfcuker

Hi All,
So the moment has come that I have be dreading for the last year. I got notice of rent increase. My rent is increasing from 700 to 820 a month from January. Letter was dated 15/12/2015 and rent is due on the 10th of the month.

Just looking for some clarification on 2 things, how much notice period should be given of rent increase, been living here for over 6 years and how much notice period should be given to state I am moving out.

Gumbo

madfcuker wrote: »

Hi All,
So the moment has come that I have be dreading for the last year. I got notice of rent increase. My rent is increasing from 700 to 820 a month from January. Letter was dated 15/12/2015 and rent is due on the 10th of the month.

Just looking for some clarification on 2 things, how much notice period should be given of rent increase, been living here for over 6 years and how much notice period should be given to state I am moving out.

90 days notice of rent increase.
Sounds like you have Part IV tenancy and over 4 years occupancy so if 4 or more years: 112 days notice.

Worth pointing out that you should not rush decisions. Make sure you can get a similar place for lower rent before moving out and the. Realizing you had a good deal.

otwb1

it's 90 days now (new legislation from the 5th December). check out prtb.ie

star_spotter

otwb1 wrote: »

it's 90 days now (new legislation from the 5th December). check out prtb.ie

this is correct , its now ninety days

star_spotter

madfcuker wrote: »

Hi All,
So the moment has come that I have be dreading for the last year. I got notice of rent increase. My rent is increasing from 700 to 820 a month from January. Letter was dated 15/12/2015 and rent is due on the 10th of the month.

Just looking for some clarification on 2 things, how much notice period should be given of rent increase, been living here for over 6 years and how much notice period should be given to state I am moving out.

what part of the country is that and what kind of property roughly ? ( if you dont mind me asking )

Tar.Aldarion

otwb1 wrote: »

it's 90 days now (new legislation from the 5th December). check out prtb.ie

What if somebody got notice in november?

Nevermind I see here that is teh old perod of notice.

http://www.prtb.ie/search-results/news/article/2015/12/04/new-amendments-to-the-legislation-on-rent-increases-and-notices-of-termination-effective-from-4th-december-2015

madfcuker

Thanks for clarifying this for me. The rent increase was coming. I've been paying under market value for a couple of years now. The rent increase is in line for similar properties in the area.

Will try and negotiate with LL. I will make sure all communications will be recorded.