2015-16 Champions Cup thread

Zzippy

Stheno wrote: »

Are they the guys nicknamed the chiefs with the Indian mascot?

Yep. Great fans too

vienne86

Scarlets

Zzippy wrote: »

Yep. Great fans too

We had them in the RDS a few years ago - great fnas and great craic.

pickarooney

awec wrote: »

Anyone but Saracens please. Anyone.

Even Toulon again?

molloyjh

pickarooney wrote: »

Even Toulon again?

I actually kind of want Toulon to win it again. The only way we're going to see someone step in and make changes to how rugby is being run at the moment is if/when competitions like the Champions Cup turn into such a farce that people start to lose interest in. If Toulon win it again and then go out and buy a load of internationals again next season people will be turned off the whole thing. Who wants to watch the same team win the trophy year after year?

bilston

pickarooney wrote: »

Even Toulon again?

When they click Toulon are great to watch, which isn't a surprise, Saracens are easier on the eye than they used to be but I just can't warm to them. Racing are buying their way to success as well but they have everyone's favourite son in Dan Carter on their team which makes them a bit more likeable.

awec

pickarooney wrote: »

Even Toulon again?

Yes. Absolutely yes.

A team of 15 John Laceys would be preferable to Saracens.

Would like Exeter to lift it if Ulster can't get there...

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

Would like Exeter to lift it if Ulster can't get there...

If Ulster can't get there?

I'll have a dose of whatever delusion juice you're drinking emmet. :pac:

bilston

awec wrote: »

Yes. Absolutely yes.

A team of 15 John Laceys would be preferable to Saracens.

Saracens are summed up by the fact that Chris Ashton isn't even in their three most dislikeable players.

In saying that I swear I have rarely had more anger in a match than seeing him do his fecking swan dive when scoring against us while sadly he has done a few times...

Del.Monte

Leicester

Racing 92 Dan Carter all the way.

awec

awec wrote: »

If Ulster can't get there?

I'll have a dose of whatever delusion juice you're drinking emmet. :pac:

You are becoming an absolute parody of negativity these days.

Would you ever cheer up!

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

You are becoming an absolute parody of negativity these days.

Would you ever cheer up!

You honestly think Ulster are good enough to win the Champions Cup?!

awec

awec wrote: »

You honestly think Ulster are good enough to win the Champions Cup?!

Deleted User wrote: »

Would like Exeter to lift it if Ulster can't get there...

.

vienne86

Scarlets

molloyjh wrote: »

I actually kind of want Toulon to win it again. The only way we're going to see someone step in and make changes to how rugby is being run at the moment is if/when competitions like the Champions Cup turn into such a farce that people start to lose interest in. If Toulon win it again and then go out and buy a load of internationals again next season people will be turned off the whole thing. Who wants to watch the same team win the trophy year after year?

Well that is an interesting idea and it might be a good one too! I had been posting that I hoped Wasps and Bath would keep Toulon out, but hadn't thought of this!

I actually don't think Toulon will do it this year. See that one vote up there in the poll for Racing? If I could vote again today, I would still vote for Racing. Time will tell.

bilston

awec wrote: »

You honestly think Ulster are good enough to win the Champions Cup?!

Course we aren't but I genuinely think we can get out of the pool. Win on Sunday and I'd expect us to get out of the pool!

swiwi_

molloyjh wrote: »

I actually kind of want Toulon to win it again. The only way we're going to see someone step in and make changes to how rugby is being run at the moment is if/when competitions like the Champions Cup turn into such a farce that people start to lose interest in. If Toulon win it again and then go out and buy a load of internationals again next season people will be turned off the whole thing. Who wants to watch the same team win the trophy year after year?

Zero chance of a Toulon victory sparking that IMO Molloy. Excellent chance it would spur other English & French clubs to spend even more money on imports further weakening the position of the Pro 12 clubs. The way of the world in all things sadly.

NB: to amuse myself, I have compiled my ex-NZ XV from my weekend's viewing (4 games watched). Too many inside backs to choose from, but anyway

No LH
Flynn
Tameifuna
Fitzgerald
Paterson
Masoe
O'Connor
Williams
Boss
Carter
Nonu
Laulala
Rococoko
Nacewa
Taylor

McAlister was absolutely crap for Toulouse so I refused to consider him for selection, and that means poor Francis is the other to miss out. Oh well, maybe he can play LH at a stretch.

swiwi_

Wasps

swiwi_ wrote: »

Zero chance of a Toulon victory sparking that IMO Molloy. Excellent chance it would spur other English & French clubs to spend even more money on imports further weakening the position of the Pro 12 clubs. The way of the world in all things sadly.

I don't know if that rings true. All the six nations teams bar France prioritise their national teams when regulating how their clubs operate. If the national game suffers because of club imports I think it will go the other way (although France imo has sold their soul at this stage).

swiwi_

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't know if that rings true. All the six nations teams bar France prioritise their national teams when regulating how their clubs operate. If the national game suffers because of club imports I think it will go the other way (although France imo has sold their soul at this stage).

No chance imo. The English clubs already broke their salary cap etc. Also, I don't know why people consider Toulon different to other French clubs. Probably because of their success. I don't imagine the owners of Racing etc have any different interests at heart to yer man from Toulon.

I think it's absolutely pointless for Irish clubs to try and outbid the French/UK clubs, you'll have to find other ways to attract players. Aside from the chance to play for Ireland 3 years down the line, it's hard to think of too many sweeteners on offer that can replace cold hard cash.

I said it last year, but some of the treatment meted out to imports will filter back to the SANZAR countries too. I doubt Jimmy Gopperth will be selling Leinster to his rugby contacts back home, likewise will Rob Penney be encouraging young lads from Canterbury territory to head to Munster?

On the other hand, we see how Pat Lam has been well received in Connacht, and he seems to have a ready supply of Kiwis willing to head out Wesht.

The NH has just become one big slush fund for SANZAR rugby players, very few who have any genuine alliance to a particular region or club in Europe. I can't be certain, but I imagine when the Kiwi lads feel they have reached their limit in NZ, or they've had enough playing in black, the ask their agent to put out feelers with $ figuring right up the top of the list.

And then for the Irish clubs it's a vicious circle. You can be the only (or one of few) Kiwis at the club, or you can join up with all your old mates in France, probably don't even have to learn French, enjoy the sun and the surf, earn megabucks, and because Fance is so populous and soccer is the main sport, you can remain relatively anonymous.

I'm completely pessimistic, and I remain amazed the NZRFU keep so many Kiwis back home for so long. But that's because there are intangibles, including of course the AB jersey. In the long-run SANZAR will probably need Japanese and American money to have any chance of retaining their players, hence the SXV expansion.

Just on economics alone, I find it hard not see European rugby go the way of the English Premier league.

Sorry to be so dark!

CatFromHue

Wasps

Irish clubs have never really bought in the big big SANZAR players. Yeah there were Jean de Villiers, Rocky, Howlett and Pienaar but JdV and Rocky were 1 year guys.

The biggest impacting SANZAR guys have been the ones under the radar like Langford, Spooner, Holwell, Wright, Payne, Halstead, Strauss and even Nacewa was a big unknown when he came up here. Cameron Jowitt was just back packing up here and turned out to be able to do a job for Leinster!

So I'm not doom and gloom just yet. Who knows Tyler B, for example, could turn out to join that list above.

aimee1

CatFromHue wrote: »

Irish clubs have never really bought in the big big SANZAR players. Yeah there were Jean de Villiers, Rocky, Howlett and Pienaar but JdV and Rocky were 1 year guys.

The biggest impacting SANZAR guys have been the ones under the radar like Langford, Spooner, Holwell, Wright, Payne, Halstead, Strauss and even Nacewa was a big unknown when he came up here. Cameron Jowitt was just back packing up here and turned out to be able to do a job for Leinster!

So I'm not doom and gloom just yet. Who knows Tyler B, for example, could turn out to join that list above.

Think Tyler B is going to be another Christian Cullen

Stheno

I have another of my stupid questions if you guys don't mind.

So take Tyler B and POC, join new clubs, get severely injured and don't play for quite a time after they join the club.

1. Do they get paid regardless?
2. Do the clubs have insurance to cover their pay/medical bills?
3. In the instance of POC, is it the IRFU who cover wages/bills as he was injured playing for Ireland?

TIA

awec

They do get paid regardless, but I think Ferris mentioned in his book that long term injuries can see a bit of a reduction in your salary.

They are insured.

I am pretty sure it is Toulon who pay him.

case885

swiwi_ wrote:

No LH Flynn Tameifuna Fitzgerald Paterson Masoe O'Connor Williams Boss Carter Nonu Laulala Rococoko Nacewa Taylor

swiwi_ wrote:

McAlister was absolutely crap for Toulouse so I refused to consider him for selection, and that means poor Francis is the other to miss out. Oh well, maybe he can play LH at a stretch.

Saili will be heartbroken he didn't make your 15

CatFromHue

Wasps

Don't know how true it is but it used to be that a player out injured for 6 months or so then went on half salary, don't know if that's still true though.

awec

CatFromHue wrote: »

Don't know how true it is but it used to be that a player out injured for 6 months or so then went on half salary, don't know if that's still true though.

I think that's what Ferris said in his book. But it was the IRFU and POCs contract is with Toulon who might have a different policy.

Yeah_Right

CatFromHue wrote: »

Irish clubs have never really bought in the big big SANZAR players. Yeah there were Jean de Villiers, Rocky, Howlett and Pienaar but JdV and Rocky were 1 year guys.

The biggest impacting SANZAR guys have been the ones under the radar like Langford, Spooner, Holwell, Wright, Payne, Halstead, Strauss and even Nacewa was a big unknown when he came up here. Cameron Jowitt was just back packing up here and turned out to be able to do a job for Leinster!

So I'm not doom and gloom just yet. Who knows Tyler B, for example, could turn out to join that list above.

You forgot Thorn, Afoa, Maafi, Tipoki, Williams, Cullen, Mils, Aki, Herring and Ah You. Just for a few kiwis. What about the Aussies and Saffers?

Dave_The_Sheep

molloyjh wrote: »

1Who wants to watch the same team win the trophy year after year?

No one, but money is the ultimate arbiter. The English clubs didn't even get a slap on the wrist for breaking the salary cap. With the English and French clubs surging ahead in financial terms, the only hope we (the rest of Europe) have is that the one side gets sick of the other.

The Celtic and Italian clubs/provinces blew it when the European Cup was re-negotiated (thanks Wales!) and now we're quite simply beholden to England or France to get sick of each other winning to make changes. Right now, that's Toulon. (And, yeah, it's sick that we have to rely on the English clubs, but that's where we are unfortunately).

Part of me wants the English to never win again, even if that means Toulon winning 10 in a row just so maybe they might realise that money isn't the best way to go, but I don't think Wray et al are capable of learning that lesson.

The other part of me almost hopes that Leinster beat Toulon next week - then give up 5 points to both Wasps and Bath so that Toulon get knocked out at the group stages.

awec

Yeah_Right wrote: »

You forgot Thorn, Afoa, Maafi, Tipoki, Williams, Cullen, Mils, Aki, Herring and Ah You. Just for a few kiwis. What about the Aussies and Saffers?

Muller.

molloyjh

swiwi_ wrote: »

No chance imo. The English clubs already broke their salary cap etc. Also, I don't know why people consider Toulon different to other French clubs. Probably because of their success. I don't imagine the owners of Racing etc have any different interests at heart to yer man from Toulon.

The English are trying to compete with the French but there simply isn't the same money there as in France. I don't consider Toulon any different to the likes of Stade or Clermont really, but they are the poster boys for the big money clubs. No English club is close to competing with them financially. And they (the French clubs) are already so far out in front of everyone including the English that they won't be caught any time soon.

Rugby, unlike soccer, is still a pretty small market and it simply can't afford to lose spectators to something like this. Imagine being a Quins fan or a Bath fan. Decent sides who will continue to struggle to make it past the QFs, let alone win the competition. Why would their fans be that bothered with Europe next season or the season after if it's just a vehicle for the French money men? Now imagine being from a Pro12 country? Almost never in the running.

If Toulon win again people will start getting disillusioned with the whole thing. And if it's an all French final again (which is quite possible) for the 3rd time in 4 years more and more will lose interest.

Soccer got away with that carry on because it got so big that it could get away with it. Rugby isn't there yet.

former total

Ospreys

CatFromHue wrote: »

Irish clubs have never really bought in the big big SANZAR players. Yeah there were Jean de Villiers, Rocky, Howlett and Pienaar but JdV and Rocky were 1 year guys.

The biggest impacting SANZAR guys have been the ones under the radar like Langford, Spooner, Holwell, Wright, Payne, Halstead, Strauss and even Nacewa was a big unknown when he came up here. Cameron Jowitt was just back packing up here and turned out to be able to do a job for Leinster!

So I'm not doom and gloom just yet. Who knows Tyler B, for example, could turn out to join that list above.

It's a gamble though. For every John Langford there's a Steven Sykes. For every Richardt Strauss there's a Harry Vermaas.

The provinces simply cannot compete as things stand. Unfortunately it seems like IRFU are happy enough with that.

CatFromHue

Wasps

That's true but then big names like Cj van der Linde and Kane Douglas didn't work out either so there's a gamble in every signing.

Yeah_Right

aimee1 wrote: »

Think Tyler B is going to be another Christian Cullen

Bleyendaal is good but he's no Christian Cullen

former total

Ospreys

CatFromHue wrote: »

That's true but then big names like Cj van der Linde and Kane Douglas didn't work out either so there's a gamble in every signing.

Yes of course - but they didn't work out mainly for reasons of injury, they were proven performers when they arrived and went on to prove their quality after they left.

With the bargain basement guys we're currently signing, you have the same risks as with CJ and Douglas, but you also have the risk that they'll be fundamentally crap.

CatFromHue

Wasps

Yeah_Right wrote: »

You forgot Thorn, Afoa, Maafi, Tipoki, Williams, Cullen, Mils, Aki, Herring and Ah You. Just for a few kiwis. What about the Aussies and Saffers?

Were these guys the big big players?

Afoa probably was, Thorn was only a short term though so I'm not counting him.

All the others had their career in NZ pretty much finished when they came over or weren't AB's at the time, nor for a bit before they came over. Actually alot of these guys are the ones I was trying to make the point about. Not the big names but good under the radar guys.

Just looking on wikipedia and guys like Mafi and Ah You never player Super rugby, Tipoki seemed to have been a journyman with less than 40 Super rugby caps over 8 years and a few different Super teams, Williams seemed to have a good Super rugby background though, Cullen rightly or wrongly didn't go to the 03RWC and looked like his AB career was over before he came here, and Muliania last played for the AB's a few years before he moved over too

CatFromHue

Wasps

former total wrote: »

Yes of course - but they didn't work out mainly for reasons of injury, they were proven performers when they arrived and went on to prove their quality after they left.

With the bargain basement guys we're currently signing, you have the same risks as with CJ and Douglas, but you also have the risk that they'll be fundamentally crap.

We've bought in very few proven big name players over the years, we usually shop in that basement you talk about.

swiwi_

former total wrote: »

Yes of course - but they didn't work out mainly for reasons of injury, they were proven performers when they arrived and went on to prove their quality after they left.

With the bargain basement guys we're currently signing, you have the same risks as with CJ and Douglas, but you also have the risk that they'll be fundamentally crap.

TBH, I'm not quite sure of the appeal of singing ITM cup/lower level SXV guys unless they come cheap. No point paying extra money for the label "made-in-nz" if there is no chance of bringing in silverware. Saili for example was very much a "last cab off the rank" AB, during a time of injury/unavailbility to better players. He's not bad, but I doubt worth his contract.

Aki and Piutau are far and away the best Kiwi signings in recent times, Piutau's signing has now inflated the price for Irish clubs for top level NZ players to around the million mark though.

molloyjh

swiwi_ wrote: »

TBH, I'm not quite sure of the appeal of singing ITM cup/lower level SXV guys unless they come cheap. No point paying extra money for the label "made-in-nz" if there is no chance of bringing in silverware. Saili for example was very much a "last cab off the rank" AB, during a time of injury/unavailbility to better players. He's not bad, but I doubt worth his contract.

Aki and Piutau are far and away the best Kiwi signings in recent times, Piutau's signing has now inflated the price for Irish clubs for top level NZ players to around the million mark though.

I keep going back to Andrew Goodman here. That type of guy is ideal. Not on huge money, solid player, only used to to fill a gap and not take up game time from someone else. I'd take someone like him over a Kane Douglas any day.

sydthebeat

Munster

molloyjh wrote: »

I keep going back to Andrew Goodman here. That type of guy is ideal. Not on huge money, solid player, only used to to fill a gap and not take up game time from someone else. I'd take someone like him over a Kane Douglas any day.

Triggs is probably falling into that band, if he doesnt go back in February...

i suppose this depends on Mick Kearneys situation.

Yeah_Right

CatFromHue wrote: »

Were these guys the big big players?

Afoa probably was, Thorn was only a short term though so I'm not counting him.

All the others had their career in NZ pretty much finished when they came over or weren't AB's at the time, nor for a bit before they came over. Actually alot of these guys are the ones I was trying to make the point about. Not the big names but good under the radar guys.

Just looking on wikipedia and guys like Mafi and Ah You never player Super rugby, Tipoki seemed to have been a journyman with less than 40 Super rugby caps over 8 years and a few different Super teams, Williams seemed to have a good Super rugby background though, Cullen rightly or wrongly didn't go to the 03RWC and looked like his AB career was over before he came here, and Muliania last played for the AB's a few years before he moved over too

Afoa left in his prime. Definitely would have got more AB caps. Yeah Thorn and Mils were done at test level. Still big names.

Mafi was in the NZ 7s team. Thought he had played Super rugby but I'll take your word for it. Both him and Aki were potential ABs but chose to leave. I mentioned Ah You and Heenan as to me they are similar to Bleyendaal. U20 stars who headed overseas at a young age when they were very much part of the NZ plan.

Williams and Tipoki are 2 that never reached their potential in NZ despite an abundance of talent. Williams it is generally thought to be laziness and a slack attitude that stood in his way. He has progressed brilliantly at Ulster. Tipoki it was discipline. His suspension record would have rivalled Hartley's. If not for that he would have been an All Black.

I suppose my argument is that in NZ, Irish clubs are viewed the same as English and French (and Welsh) clubs. Big money that are poaching kiwi talent. To NZers a lot of these players are big names even though your average rugby fan in the NH might not have heard of them. It would be like if Madigan, Jackson, Furlong were signed a Super rugby team in NZ it wouldn't be as big a deal to kiwi fans as it would be to Irish.

CatFromHue

Wasps

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I suppose my argument is that in NZ, Irish clubs are viewed the same as English and French (and Welsh) clubs. Big money that are poaching kiwi talent. To NZers a lot of these players are big names even though your average rugby fan in the NH might not have heard of them. It would be like if Madigan, Jackson, Furlong were signed a Super rugby team in NZ it wouldn't be as big a deal to kiwi fans as it would be to Irish.

I suppose we are to them but I wouldn't put us in the same league as the English and French. Say after the 07 RWC and alot of AB's left only 1 came to Ireland, the same in 11. The others went to England and France.

Whereas we get the guys, as you say yourself, didn't reach their potential in NZ or are a rung or two (or three) down the ladder from AB level.

The English and French can go for the more established players and stars in NZ, but we can't/don't.

Yeah_Right

CatFromHue wrote: »

I suppose we are to them but I wouldn't put us in the same league as the English and French. Say after the 07 RWC and alot of AB's left only 1 came to Ireland, the same in 11. The others went to England and France.

Whereas we get the guys, as you say yourself, didn't reach their potential in NZ or are a rung or two (or three) down the ladder from AB level.

The English and French can go for the more established players and stars in NZ, but we can't/don't.

You're right. And I certainly wouldn't put the Irish clubs in the same league as the English and French clubs.

pickarooney

It might be worth pointing out that Toulon don't actually pay their players that much. Trinh-Duc is taking a pay cut to move from Montpellier and Nonu had higher offers from elsewhere but chose Toulon because of its stature.

I doubt anyone would listen though...

And the social security and insurance pays injured players. I'm paying POC's wages at the minute.

vienne86

Scarlets

So Racing just 3-6 up at Franklins Gardens at half time. Saints managing to stay in touch this week.

matthew8

Wasps

Northampton controlling territory and possession but not doing much with it. They've got a few forwards to come back who would really improve their side so a win here and they could be sitting pretty despite last week's result.

vienne86

Scarlets

matthew8 wrote: »

Northampton controlling territory and possession but not doing much with it. They've got a few forwards to come back who would really improve their side so a win here and they could be sitting pretty despite last week's result.

They'd need a win. Racing have a game in hand.

matthew8

Wasps

vienne86 wrote: »

They'd need a win. Racing have a game in hand.

They'll be favourites in their last 2 games so even with a LBP could go through as a second place side.

former total

Ospreys

I know RTE would be just as bad, but the pro-Englishness of the BT commentary would drive you demented.

matthew8

Wasps

Absolutely brutal game. A charged down kick that didn't lead to a try the highlight so far.

matthew8

Wasps

Game over, mercifully. 9-9 draw, Racing on 12 points with 3 games to come look very very likely to go through, Northampton should also get one of the runner up spots though on 10 points with 2 winnable games to come.

vienne86

Scarlets

matthew8 wrote: »

Absolutely brutal game. A charged down kick that didn't lead to a try the highlight so far.

Turgid affair. Racing will be relieved that Saints didn't make hay and will take the draw.