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Why do americans love veterans?
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Some of the "patriotism" you see on TV is bought and paid for.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25181085/nfl-teams-received-54-million-from-defense-department-in-last-4-years0 -
I agree that it is odd and can be very tiresome, especially if you don't agree with the excessive foreign interventionism and disproportionate spending of the taxpayer's dollars on the military.
My conclusion is that it's a lack of a cohesive culture to rally around as an alternative source of patriotism that leaves the American people together with nothing left to worship but the military. War has been a defining feature of the USA since it's foundation, every generation since the colonial wars has endured some protracted conflict. It's one of the few aspects of their culture that isn't regional.
That and the PR.0 -
For the record I wasn't disrespecting any veteran or current service man. My wife's Father fought in Vietnam and her grandfather is a medal of valor winner for his service in WW2. I agree that since Korea many of the wars the US has been in have not been very lawful. I started this thread to expand my understanding of why the American's act the way they do towards them, not to knock anyone. Its good to see it from Irish expats who have been here longer than me. I do stand up at salute the flag at Citi field or where ever im required to do so out of respect and I think America is a great country and Ireland wouldn't have been able to stand out from under the UK's skirt without it or the EU.
I was shocked to see the US Government was paying the MLB, NHL etc for patriotism to be shown on TV. One of the world series games at Citi Field this year was one of them events that they paid for, I dont think that money should have being paid it should have went were its needed to help veterans and their family's.
To me I guess what I think is what I believe a lot of what America always does when it comes to everything "we do it better in America". So they over do the worship of Veterans, just like they over do most things. Its still a great county just the yanks love to go overboard on everything.0 -
I agree that it is odd and can be very tiresome, especially if you don't agree with the excessive foreign interventionism and disproportionate spending of the taxpayer's dollars on the military.
My conclusion is that it's a lack of a cohesive culture to rally around as an alternative source of patriotism that leaves the American people together with nothing left to worship but the military. War has been a defining feature of the USA since it's foundation, every generation since the colonial wars has endured some protracted conflict. It's one of the few aspects of their culture that isn't regional.
That and the PR.
As someone Irish born who grew up in the States I feel this is quite accurate.
I don't agree with most of the recent military action or any wars really but their accomplishments in the 2 WWs are amazing. People there get brainwashed into it to a certain degree, but they also feel that their high quality of life is indebted to the strength of the military, and perhaps that is true in part. Also for many young lads from lower socioeconomic backgrounds it is the only way they can afford college without massive debt.
People in Ireland love to rag on the yanks. Part of it is most of the ones that can afford to visit here are the corny tourist types, so that's understandable, I find them funnyntoo. But part of it is just jealousy. Most of the music, films, fashion, pop culture etc consumed here is from the US. I've even heard people say the Yanks don't have a sense of humor when pretty much every comedy film they quote is American.
A lot of veterans, especially from Nam, end up with mental issues and addictions. The US should be doing more to help those men for sure. And the war on terror was ugly, and still is. But most other countries, if they had that amount of military might, would likely abuse it even worse.0 -
As someone Irish born who grew up in the States I feel this is quite accurate.
I don't agree with most of the recent military action or any wars really but their accomplishments in the 2 WWs are amazing. People there get brainwashed into it to a certain degree, but they also feel that their high quality of life is indebted to the strength of the military, and perhaps that is true in part. Also for many young lads from lower socioeconomic backgrounds it is the only way they can afford college without massive debt.
People in Ireland love to rag on the yanks. Part of it is most of the ones that can afford to visit here are the corny tourist types, so that's understandable, I find them funnyntoo. But part of it is just jealousy. Most of the music, films, fashion, pop culture etc consumed here is from the US. I've even heard people say the Yanks don't have a sense of humor when pretty much every comedy film they quote is American.
A lot of veterans, especially from Nam, end up with mental issues and addictions. The US should be doing more to help those men for sure. And the war on terror was ugly, and still is. But most other countries, if they had that amount of military might, would likely abuse it even worse.
Actually i find the tourists that come here very pleasant and friendly-it's my experience from being over there that you see the "real" americans,the people that are essentially what this thread is about.
You might have been born here,but your statement about it being jealousy shows you have the same "self-inflated" ego as a lot of americans do,. You will find also that most American comedys shown here are actually a pi*s take on americans, e.g family guy, etc,etc0 -
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As someone Irish born who grew up in the States I feel this is quite accurate.
I don't agree with most of the recent military action or any wars really but their accomplishments in the 2 WWs are amazing. People there get brainwashed into it to a certain degree, but they also feel that their high quality of life is indebted to the strength of the military, and perhaps that is true in part. Also for many young lads from lower socioeconomic backgrounds it is the only way they can afford college without massive debt.
People in Ireland love to rag on the yanks. Part of it is most of the ones that can afford to visit here are the corny tourist types, so that's understandable, I find them funnyntoo. But part of it is just jealousy. Most of the music, films, fashion, pop culture etc consumed here is from the US. I've even heard people say the Yanks don't have a sense of humor when pretty much every comedy film they quote is American.
A lot of veterans, especially from Nam, end up with mental issues and addictions. The US should be doing more to help those men for sure. And the war on terror was ugly, and still is. But most other countries, if they had that amount of military might, would likely abuse it even worse.
American born , lived in Ireland for 26 years and been living in America for the last 4 years. While I'm sure some Irish people may be jealous...I don't think that's too true any more. America is no longer seen as some mystical land with the best of everything. America = Pop culture for sure...but how many people with a brain in their head that would voice an opinion are enamored with pop culture these days?
American music right now in most part is recycled Pop garbage, American TV was terrible for years until AMC and Netflix kicked things back into gear, American movies have been awful for a long time...in fact, it's all irrelevant because Irish people can get all of that the very next day now. In fact most big budget American movies are being released there first now....I think it's just so they can focus their time promoting more heavily in the US on the tail end of the media tours.
The reason that I can see for the Veteran love is due to propaganda. I think the powers that be have done a great job since the end of the Vietnam war to start spinning things round. It's amazing that this country went from a time of such social unrest and sense of people power to what it is today. You'll still hear people speaking about how returning soldiers were spit on. It was made very clear that even if you don't support the war in Iraq, you must support the Troops.
It's actually pretty brilliant. It prevents any real dialog about things. It ensures the US Government can continue to swing it's d1ck and the American public will still raw-raw all the way home. I live in Phoenix. A gentleman died while on a waiting list at a VA...before that happened, every story would end up in a "what about the veteran?" question...even unrelated sh1t...like funding for education. Well what about taking care of our veterans? Since that guy died, it's cranked up 10 fold. It's so ridiculous.
This country is now in a situation in which there's no draft but there's something possibly more evil. You want a private pension?...no private employers will give them. You need a state job or to join the forces. You want an affordable education? Get a scholarship or join the forces...I could go on but I've voice my opinion about this topic enough on here.
P.S. The NFL was charging the Army for highlighting soldiers at the games....it's clearly propaganda. They aren't even good at hiding it any more0 -
One of the odder aspects of this affection for the troops is the baskets in supermarkets where you are invited to contribute sweets, not sure how this works in reality!0
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One of the odder aspects of this affection for the troops is the baskets in supermarkets where you are invited to contribute sweets, not sure how this works in reality!
Most of the airports have them. At one point, I bought into all of this crap in a round about way. I didn't get the raw-raw-raw crap but I just thought. Well those guys are a victim of circumstances. They are stuck in this country where an education costs a fortune...a lot of them don't even want to be in the forces they just feel they have to. In the airport in Charlotte, I told the lady I'd buy the most expensive thing in the basket.
Which was a set of over ear headphones which would be sent to a soldier...
A few years later. I think that kind of support is just hurting the country in the long run. I don't hate the troops. Many are just victims of circumstance but I won't actively go out of my way to show support.0 -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zqOYBabXmA - worth a look. I think the media have much to answer for.0
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zqOYBabXmA - worth a look. I think the media have much to answer for.
Local radio here talking about that clip as controversial about 3 months before the show aired....granted, that was probably what HBO thought would happen and why they used it as the teaser.
It was going great until he got all choked up and it turned all cheesy0 -
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We probably should be pretty thankful for the US veterans too to be honest. I mean we always complain about US military presence in countries of conflict. What we conveniently forget is their continued presence in Europe. Germany, for example, are not exactly protesting on the streets for the 40,000 US troops stationed there to get out.
This not only has obvious security benefits, but economical ones too. So keep in mind that there are insignificant German troops stationed in America. Now, Germany are the poster boys of economical success. These poster boys spend 1.2% of their GDP on military. Awesome. That's still billions of dollars.
If the US military decided "OK, Europe, time to care care of yourselves. In fact, it's your turn to bolster our security as we did for you post Cold War, so we can pump some money into our social security programs", what do you think the general consensus would be?
I'm not saying anything either way, and I know that everything is infinitely more complicated, but while Europe tries to cut military budgets... who picks up the security bill? There's not less security to be done magically. I'm not a fan of military, but these people deserve respect and to be taken care of at the very least... They certainly don't deserve the derision they are subjected to constantly. Top brass, definitely... your average serviceman? Certainly not.0 -
El Burro Juicioso wrote: »
If the US military decided "OK, Europe, time to care care of yourselves. In fact, it's your turn to bolster our security as we did for you post Cold War, so we can pump some money into our social security programs", what do you think the general consensus would be?
I'm not saying anything either way, and I know that everything is infinitely more complicated, but while Europe tries to cut military budgets... who picks up the security bill? There's not less security to be done magically. I'm not a fan of military, but these people deserve respect and to be taken care of at the very least... They certainly don't deserve the derision they are subjected to constantly. Top brass, definitely... your average serviceman? Certainly not.
They aren't exactly doing too much at the moment to "bolster security". If there were US soldiers on the streets during terrorist issues, then that would be one thing - but the bases in germany are mostly self serving to US interests - it lets them flex their big boy muscles to the Russians without actually doing anything.but these people deserve respect and to be taken care of at the very least... They certainly don't deserve the derision they are subjected to constantly. Top brass, definitely... your average serviceman? Certainly not
No one "deserves" respect. These men and women are being paid to do a job, and when they leave the military have substantial benefits (GI bill etc) to help them transfer into civilian life.0 -
True i guess. I just dont get the yanks at times. Was in a bar at the weekend and there was two navy dudes from the local navy base someone came up to them to buy them a drink to thank them for their service.
I grew up in Mullingar and nobody there would ever buy a solider a drink for being in the army.
The American army is a bit different to the Mullingar army barracks!!!!!!!!! They have been to war etc I know some of the older soldiers from the Irish army who were on peace keeping tours and they all get a lot of respect from younger people and the people of the town.0 -
iusedtoknow wrote: »They aren't exactly doing too much at the moment to "bolster security". If there were US soldiers on the streets during terrorist issues, then that would be one thing - but the bases in germany are mostly self serving to US interests - it lets them flex their big boy muscles to the Russians without actually doing anything.
No one "deserves" respect. These men and women are being paid to do a job, and when they leave the military have substantial benefits (GI bill etc) to help them transfer into civilian life.
Of course they are self serving to US interests. However, if they weren't aligned with European interests either, why aren't people on the streets protesting? They do serve a purpose and flexing their muscles, as you like to put it, does help Europeans. Ukraine was not straight up invaded by Russia. It had to hold a proxy invasion, cloak and dagger. They can't just march in there with a red star. What if there were zero US servicemen in Europe?
Ok, no one "deserves" respect. That's fine. You don't deserve respect at your job. Housewives don't deserve respect. Mothers don't deserve respect. Nobody deserve respect. You are arguing semantics. I'm saying they should no be derided as it is fashionable to do.0 -
Ah you gotta love the US War Machine (tm) - "Defending your right to defend people's rights in order to secure yourself basic rights"0
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El Burro Juicioso wrote: »Of course they are self serving to US interests. However, if they weren't aligned with European interests either, why aren't people on the streets protesting? They do serve a purpose and flexing their muscles, as you like to put it, does help Europeans. Ukraine was not straight up invaded by Russia. It had to hold a proxy invasion, cloak and dagger. They can't just march in there with a red star. What if there were zero US servicemen in Europe?
Ok, no one "deserves" respect. That's fine. You don't deserve respect at your job. Housewives don't deserve respect. Mothers don't deserve respect. Nobody deserve respect. You are arguing semantics. I'm saying they should no be derided as it is fashionable to do.
I think the almost fanatical admiration the US citizens hold for their military is unnerving to be honest,but what can you expect when their media/governments are constantly bombarding them with nonsensical propaganda about how their military protects their "freedoms" etc.
What if there were none in Europe? I really don't think we would notice to be honest0 -
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I think the almost fanatical admiration the US citizens hold for their military is unnerving to be honest,but what can you expect when their media/governments are constantly bombarding them with nonsensical propaganda about how their military protects their "freedoms" etc.
I mean, there are certainly "fanatics" for the US military in certain spheres, and it does breed a certain culture, sure. However, I don't see it really infringing on the majority day to day thinking too much. OK, they celebrate their military a couple of days a year, but that's hardly surprising given their history.
Now, the government is another issue. But, really I'm just commenting on the derision of Americans being proud of something which every European nation benefits from, but are more than happy to disparage.0 -
What if there were none in Europe? I really don't think we would notice to be honest
I'm pretty sure we would. Just personally speaking, I feel they contribute a stabilising effect. Not to mention money generated in local economies, whether you agree with the morality of such activity or no.
But let's say they have zero positive effect... why are they still there? Is Europe such a decrepit region that we can't say "Ok thanks for everything but you gotta go since you are just costing us money, using resources, taking up space, attracting negative attention, not contributing etc etc ".0 -
El Burro Juicioso wrote: »I mean, there are certainly "fanatics" for the US military in certain spheres, and it does breed a certain culture, sure. However, I don't see it really infringing on the majority day to day thinking too much. OK, they celebrate their military a couple of days a year, but that's hardly surprising given their history.
Now, the government is another issue. But, really I'm just commenting on the derision of Americans being proud of something which every European nation benefits from, but are more than happy to disparage.
How does Europe benefit from the American military? And in response to my first highlight,I've been in American a number of times,I'll tell you where you see it infringing,in the smaller country type towns,the towns you won't see on your tourist destinations-you won't see much in New York,Chicago,Boston,but when you go to "real "American towns,you will see American flags lining the streets,slogans calling for people to join the military,pictures of "uncle sam" (the one we all know) pointing the finger with the headline"your country needs you". You'll see small tin cans beside the cash registers saying"support the military". This is how the American public are brainwashed into the pro-military thinking and ,yes it does infringe on everyday life0 -
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El Burro Juicioso wrote: »I'm pretty sure we would. Just personally speaking, I feel they contribute a stabilising effect. Not to mention money generated in local economies, whether you agree with the morality of such activity or no.
But let's say they have zero positive effect... why are they still there? Is Europe such a decrepit region that we can't say "Ok thanks for everything but you gotta go since you are just costing us money, using resources, taking up space, attracting negative attention, not contributing etc etc ".
Well,you really need to explain this one.
They are there for their own gains only,the Americans have hundreds of military bases worldwide,full of military personal-do you think they are there to help out the local economies in the countries they haves bases in?0 -
El Burro Juicioso wrote: »
Ok, no one "deserves" respect. That's fine. You don't deserve respect at your job. Housewives don't deserve respect. Mothers don't deserve respect. Nobody deserve respect. You are arguing semantics. I'm saying they should no be derided as it is fashionable to do.
I'm not arguing semantics. Living in the US (though thank FSM not here in SF) there is an awful glorifying of the military. They board flights first, every sports event has some military person being "saluted" (even though it's paid propaganda by the various arms of the military). The general atmosphere is that these paid killers for some reason deserve public respect because of their "service". It really grinds my gears.0 -
El Burro Juicioso wrote: »Not to mention money generated in local economies, whether you agree with the morality of such activity or no.
.
US military bases are towns unto themselves. They have restaurants, bars, gyms and shops for people that live on base. There are schools that service members kids attend. Not to mention...these bases are basically in the middle of nowhere.
I know someone that lived there while her husband was on duty. She was bored out of her mind - the only employment for people on base were in call centers for US based services (ie when you call a US embassy, the odds are you are actually talking to the wife of a service man in one of the german bases.0 -
How does Europe benefit from the American military? And in response to my first highlight,I've been in American a number of times,I'll tell you where you see it infringing,in the smaller country type towns,the towns you won't see on your tourist destinations-you won't see much in New York,Chicago,Boston,but when you go to "real "American towns,you will see American flags lining the streets,slogans calling for people to join the military,pictures of "uncle sam" (the one we all know) pointing the finger with the headline"your country needs you". You'll see small tin cans beside the cash registers saying"support the military". This is how the American public are brainwashed into the pro-military thinking and ,yes it does infringe on everyday life
"Real America"... So you are saying that large cities don't matter? That the unfortunate brainwashed of nowhere towns are, in fact, more important and indeed have more clout. So, for instance a small town in Ireland represents Ireland more than Dubliners? And in a country where the town i the same size but the city we are talking about is 10 times bigger? Right.
I also live in the South. Just so you aren't confused.
As for contributing to local economies, I'm talking local-local and also national-local really ... where do you think any base gets its supplies from? They aren't flying over cornflakes. Sure they import things, that's also taxed. 40,000 people isn't an insignificant number of people to feed and water. Do they spend 24 hours a day on base? Or do they possibly spend money in their localities.
But even so, why are Germans so amazingly spineless that they can't say no.iusedtoknow wrote: »US military bases are towns unto themselves. They have restaurants, bars, gyms and shops for people that live on base. There are schools that service members kids attend. Not to mention...these bases are basically in the middle of nowhere.
I know someone that lived there while her husband was on duty. She was bored out of her mind - the only employment for people on base were in call centers for US based services (ie when you call a US embassy, the odds are you are actually talking to the wife of a service man in one of the german bases.
Anecdotal I'm afraid. Is every base in the middle of nowhere? There are bases in cities too.
So guys tell me, if the US didn't have bases in Europe, do you think Ukraine would have gone worse?
How about South Korea? Would that situation descend into a disaster.. And before you say whataboutery.. even though it's not important to Europeans it is relevant to Americans.
And further back on topic, they did kind of help win a couple of important wars. England won the World Cup once, and people still bang on about that.0 -
El Burro Juicioso wrote: »
Anecdotal I'm afraid. Is every base in the middle of nowhere? There are bases in cities too.
The majority are attached to air bases and their surrounds. Air bases, by design are outside of populated areas. There are some minor barracks in Stuttgart but the majority are attached to air bases.El Burro Juicioso wrote: »So guys tell me, if the US didn't have bases in Europe, do you think Ukraine would have gone worse?
What did the US actually do? Crimea is now russia, Donestk is basically russia.El Burro Juicioso wrote: »And further back on topic, they did kind of help win a couple of important wars.
So what? That was 70 years ago. The world has changed dramatically. So should US military policy. Within 10 years there will be very few people around that were even alive during the war.
Does this mean that Europe has to eternally be grateful to the US for a war that was fought generations ago?0 -
iusedtoknow wrote: »I'm not arguing semantics. Living in the US (though thank FSM not here in SF) there is an awful glorifying of the military. They board flights first, every sports event has some military person being "saluted" (even though it's paid propaganda by the various arms of the military). The general atmosphere is that these paid killers for some reason deserve public respect because of their "service". It really grinds my gears.
I'm just saying that they aren't necessarily to be derided at every turn either, given that we'd be pretty worse off without them. And these "paid killers" are a huge reason why a lot of the things we know and love continue to exist. do you think without them things would just be a-ok? I'm not saying they are the best thing in the world but seriously?
Fine, they get on the plane before you do... You know you can upgrade right? That'll show the guy who joined the military so he can go to college and get out of his trailer park. It's not free.0 -
El Burro Juicioso wrote: »given that we'd be pretty worse off without them.
How exactly?
US war in iraq gave rise to IS and the various affiliates that are causing chaos around the world. The army do little or no good except breed further hatred agains the west
I see the need for army's a la Switzerland where they are there for defensive wars. However the US has not fought a defensive war since WW2.
The Iraq/Afghanistan justification was fabricated
Korea and Vietnam were proxy war's against China/Russia0 -
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the US is a massive deterrent to North Koreas stupidity for want of a better term, however in the coming years their bases in Okinawa and Korea will be needed to keep the Chinese in check.
There a lot of territorial disputes bubbling under the surface due to the reclamation of what are basically sand bars that the Chinese have turned into island with landing strips and other smaller island chains.
The presence of the US will likely keep China from blowing the **** out of one of its neighbours0 -
iusedtoknow wrote: »The majority are attached to air bases and their surrounds. Air bases, by design are outside of populated areas. There are some minor barracks in Stuttgart but the majority are attached to air bases.
OK, but would you say they are a net deficit or surplus on the economy?iusedtoknow wrote: »What did the US actually do? Crimea is now russia, Donestk is basically russia.
Ukraine is not Russia.... Russia did not invade as an army. What did Europe actually do?iusedtoknow wrote: »So what? That was 70 years ago. The world has changed dramatically. So should US military policy. Within 10 years there will be very few people around that were even alive during the war.
Does this mean that Europe has to eternally be grateful to the US for a war that was fought generations ago?
Should we forget everyone, ever, after a set period of time then? Sure the Irish revolution happened way before it. No need to bother about them. The military means quite a lot to people in the States which they like to express, and it means quite a lot to Europeans, even though they like to criticise it.
So riddle me this, if the US pulled out of NATO right now (which would be pulling out of Europe), and out of the UN do you think that would be a positive thing?0 -
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El Burro Juicioso wrote: »OK, but would you say they are a net deficit or surplus on the economy?
Neither...I'm pretty sure Germany would tick a long nicely without it, but I would need to look at figuresEl Burro Juicioso wrote: »Ukraine is not Russia.... Russia did not invade as an army. What did Europe actually do?
Europe did nothing, they should have - but they did not...hence losing CrimeaEl Burro Juicioso wrote: »Should we forget everyone, ever, after a set period of time then? Sure the Irish revolution happened way before it. No need to bother about them. The military means quite a lot to people in the States which they like to express, and it means quite a lot to Europeans, even though they like to criticise it.
I agree, I am dreading the 2016 commemoration BS. Nothing like a country to pull out some "commemoration" to stir up some patriotism.El Burro Juicioso wrote: »So riddle me this, if the US pulled out of NATO right now (which would be pulling out of Europe), and out of the UN do you think that would be a positive thing?
Yes. Both are basically talk shops with little or no good coming out them except for UNHCR. We need new alliances or at lease a rethink of organizations that were created out of WW2 and the cold war.
The world has changed, old enemies are no longer enemies. Old friends are no longer friends.0
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