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Why do americans love veterans?

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    #62
    El Burro Juicioso
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭El Burro Juicioso


    iusedtoknow wrote: »
    How exactly?

    US war in iraq gave rise to IS and the various affiliates that are causing chaos around the world. The army do little or no good except breed further hatred agains the west

    I see the need for army's a la Switzerland where they are there for defensive wars. However the US has not fought a defensive war since WW2.

    The Iraq/Afghanistan justification was fabricated
    Korea and Vietnam were proxy war's against China/Russia

    The entire world as you know it would be completely different. As in unrecogniseable.

    You can't blame just the US for everything, as much as you would like to.

    You are also mixing political decision with your average military personal. Why do Americans love veterans is the question? They serve America is the answer. Political whim is not on their radar. Americans appreciate veterans - people. They don't appreciate the war in Iraq.

    I'm sorry but are you saying armies should not exist? (Your reference to Switzerland)


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    #63
    El Burro Juicioso
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭El Burro Juicioso


    iusedtoknow wrote: »
    Neither...I'm pretty sure Germany would tick a long nicely without it, but I would need to look at figures
    I mean it's either a surplus or deficit? Of course they will tick along, but do you not think it may be a little bit of a coincidence that Germany can hold Europe's lowest military spend on GDP and the largest number of US personnel?
    iusedtoknow wrote: »
    Europe did nothing, they should have - but they did not...hence losing Crimea
    So, worse than the US, if anything. Nobody is talking about that though.
    iusedtoknow wrote: »
    I agree, I am dreading the 2016 commemoration BS. Nothing like a country to pull out some "commemoration" to stir up some patriotism.
    It's nice we can agree about one thing!!
    iusedtoknow wrote: »
    Yes. Both are basically talk shops with little or no good coming out them except for UNHCR. We need new alliances or at lease a rethink of organizations that were created out of WW2 and the cold war.

    The world has changed, old enemies are no longer enemies. Old friends are no longer friends.
    Sure, break dialogue. That always goes well.

    Old enemies....
    Russia, China ... still enemies as far as needing a military is concerned...
    New enemies... well they are new so more military if anything because they sure as don't want to engage in dialogue or make a truce.


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    #64
    mulbot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭mulbot


    El Burro Juicioso wrote: »
    The entire world as you know it would be completely different. As in unrecogniseable.

    You can't blame just the US for everything, as much as you would like to.

    You are also mixing political decision with your average military personal. Why do Americans love veterans is the question? They serve America is the answer. Political whim is not on their radar. Americans appreciate veterans - people. They don't appreciate the war in Iraq.

    I'm sorry but are you saying armies should not exist? (Your reference to Switzerland)

    Yet they glorify their soldiers who served in Iraq!! Do they deserve that respect for being part of an empire that illegally invaded another country,


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    #65
    mulbot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭mulbot


    El Burro Juicioso wrote: »
    "Real America"... So you are saying that large cities don't matter? That the unfortunate brainwashed of nowhere towns are, in fact, more important and indeed have more clout. So, for instance a small town in Ireland represents Ireland more than Dubliners? And in a country where the town i the same size but the city we are talking about is 10 times bigger? Right.

    I also live in the South. Just so you aren't confused.

    As for contributing to local economies, I'm talking local-local and also national-local really ... where do you think any base gets its supplies from? They aren't flying over cornflakes. Sure they import things, that's also taxed. 40,000 people isn't an insignificant number of people to feed and water. Do they spend 24 hours a day on base? Or do they possibly spend money in their localities.

    But even so, why are Germans so amazingly spineless that they can't say no.



    Anecdotal I'm afraid. Is every base in the middle of nowhere? There are bases in cities too.

    So guys tell me, if the US didn't have bases in Europe, do you think Ukraine would have gone worse?

    How about South Korea? Would that situation descend into a disaster.. And before you say whataboutery.. even though it's not important to Europeans it is relevant to Americans.

    And further back on topic, they did kind of help win a couple of important wars. England won the World Cup once, and people still bang on about that.

    My grandfather used to say that the US piggybacked their way into WW2 on the backs of the people who actually put in all the effort-


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    #66
    El Burro Juicioso
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭El Burro Juicioso


    mulbot wrote: »
    Yet they glorify their soldiers who served in Iraq!! Do they deserve that respect for being part of an empire that illegally invaded another country,

    I thin glorify is a bit of an exaggeration. They are proud, but I don't know a single American who thinks Iraq was a good idea. And I know Republicans, Democrats, Southerners, Northerners, young'uns, oldies... I think it's pretty much a given. Take Bush and his advisory council to task for that.

    The people at the time thought they were doing the right thing. This guys were getting paid to do it, yes, but also brave to do it. It's not their fault they got deceived. You think that every single serviceman is implicit in every single war decision? So, yes I think they do deserve a modicum of respect for doing something extremely dangerous. As easy as it is to say, "ah shur they just wanted to go to college", it's a whole different thing actually doing it.

    And don't get me wrong. I don't agree with a lot of US foreign policy. I'm just saying it's easy to say "these guys don't deserve respect, these killers and murderers" but it's not that simple.

    As much as we like to think we can understand the culture here, it really is a different mindset. They really just happen to share our language and we cherry-pick what we like from across the sea.


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    #67
    Wompa1
    Registered Users Posts: 8,172 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    mulbot wrote: »
    My grandfather used to say that the US piggybacked their way into WW2 on the backs of the people who actually put in all the effort-

    I'm pretty disturbed by the US Military Industrial complex but your grandfather was talking out of his arse. The US made significant human sacrifice in WW2.

    In regards to owing to the veterans. We do owe a debt of gratitude to the veterans of WW1 (all dead now) and the veterans of WW2. I'd even extend some gratitude to those in Korea and Vietnam. Though, I would agree with the wars, those people were drafted and were put in a horrible position. They deserve to be compensated.

    But those involved in recent wars? Nah....


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    #68
    El Burro Juicioso
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭El Burro Juicioso


    mulbot wrote: »
    My grandfather used to say that the US piggybacked their way into WW2 on the backs of the people who actually put in all the effort-

    With all due respect to your grandfather.... Did he know that more Americans died in the war than British? That's some piggybacking.

    I'm talking military deaths obviously, sorry.


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    #69
    mulbot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭mulbot


    Wompa1 wrote: »
    I'm pretty disturbed by the US Military Industrial complex but your grandfather was talking out of his arse. The US made significant human sacrifice in WW2.

    In regards to owing to the veterans. We do owe a debt of gratitude to the veterans of WW1 (all dead now) and the veterans of WW2. I'd even extend some gratitude to those in Korea and Vietnam. Though, I would agree with the wars, those people were drafted and were put in a horrible position. They deserve to be compensated.

    But those involved in recent wars? Nah....

    You are talking about a man who served with Britain in WW2,was captured by the Japanese in the Philippines,held for a year in a P.O.W camp before being released under negotiations by Lord Mountbatten-I think his view deserves respect


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    #70
    El Burro Juicioso
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭El Burro Juicioso


    Wompa1 wrote: »
    I'm pretty disturbed by the US Military Industrial complex but your grandfather was talking out of his arse. The US made significant human sacrifice in WW2.

    In regards to owing to the veterans. We do owe a debt of gratitude to the veterans of WW1 (all dead now) and the veterans of WW2. I'd even extend some gratitude to those in Korea and Vietnam. Though, I would agree with the wars, those people were drafted and were put in a horrible position. They deserve to be compensated.

    But those involved in recent wars? Nah....

    I completely agree they deserve respect, but look at it from this angle:

    WW1 was the biggest sh!t show of a war. Incredible death tolls and intense glorification of the effort, which turned out to be huge lies, all for some land grabs. Those land grabs don't happen so often anymore. Mainly because the US, Russia and China can't do it directly. Some minor land grabs, but nothing like that. Now, how is that different to American soldiers getting lied to and sent to Afghanistan/Iraq, in terms of morality?

    WW2 was basically a direct result of WW1 and Versaillles. So, everyone was protecting their country. USA didn't really have to do anything in Europe. I'm pretty sure Germany wouldn't have been able to do anything about the USA. They could have dropped a bomb in Japan and ignored Germany if they so chose. So it was pretty handy they got gung ho about it.

    So you have respect for Vietnam, where people were protesting and refused to go to war, but don't have respect for those that went to Afghanistan and Iraq because they thought they were legit, whatever the actual politics of it, don't deserve respect? And, people like to blame the average serviceman for ISIS too. Which is nice. (Not you in particular)


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    #71
    El Burro Juicioso
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭El Burro Juicioso


    mulbot wrote: »
    You are talking about a man who served with Britain in WW2,was captured by the Japanese in the Philippines,held for a year in a P.O.W camp before being released under negotiations by Lord Mountbatten-I think his view deserves respect

    He deserves respect, without a doubt, but does a view deserve respect, from whatever the source, if it is demonstrably wrong?

    I mean some people have done some great things in life, and then said some pretty crazy stuff.


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    #72
    Wompa1
    Registered Users Posts: 8,172 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    El Burro Juicioso wrote: »
    I completely agree they deserve respect, but look at it from this angle:

    WW1 was the biggest sh!t show of a war. Incredible death tolls and intense glorification of the effort, which turned out to be huge lies, all for some land grabs. Those land grabs don't happen so often anymore. Mainly because the US, Russia and China can't do it directly. Some minor land grabs, but nothing like that. Now, how is that different to American soldiers getting lied to and sent to Afghanistan/Iraq, in terms of morality?

    WW2 was basically a direct result of WW1 and Versaillles. So, everyone was protecting their country. USA didn't really have to do anything in Europe. I'm pretty sure Germany wouldn't have been able to do anything about the USA. They could have dropped a bomb in Japan and ignored Germany if they so chose. So it was pretty handy they got gung ho about it.

    So you have respect for Vietnam, where people were protesting and refused to go to war, but don't have respect for those that went to Afghanistan and Iraq because they thought they were legit, whatever the actual politics of it, don't deserve respect? And, people like to blame the average serviceman for ISIS too. Which is nice. (Not you in particular)

    I have respect for the Vietnam war veterans because you can't make an assumption that they wanted to go to war. The alternative at that time was prison and being treated as a second class citizen when you got out for being a traitor...It must have been terrifying for those young men who didn't know a thing about Vietnam or what the war was for. That's why I respect them.

    WW1 was a war fought in the Trenches. The body count in WW1 and WW2 were massive. Obviously US citizens back in the US were not in harms way due to proximity. Also, the US were slow to get involved in WW2 with the President promising to not get involved with a nation that was tired of war and suffering economic problems. Even with that, they still made a massive sacrifice. They carried out some of the battles that were key to seizing back territories from the Axis.

    Nobody in this country blames the servicemen for anything. I've been here for 4 years. The attitude is that even if you disagree with the wars, you have to support the Troops. I feel as though, I could never actually say this to Americans, particularly in a workplace. My fiance has even warned me about not posting on comment sections of sites or Facebook. If you say anything against the troops, you could pay the price.

    My brother in law is a member of the forces right now. I get a pretty good insight into how it is for them. If you think they get dogs abuse or any negativity. Don't worry about it. It's the opposite. He gets his hole licked so much by people that it's become embarrassing to him.


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    #73
    mulbot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭mulbot


    El Burro Juicioso wrote: »
    He deserves respect, without a doubt, but does a view deserve respect, from whatever the source, if it is demonstrably wrong?

    I mean some people have done some great things in life, and then said some pretty crazy stuff.

    Of course it does(actually that was a common line of thinking according to him,not just one man's thoughts),however,our family does not publicly celebrate the fact,at every opportunity that he was a veteran( in fact,a lot of my friends don't even know that fact),which is quite the opposite to how a lot of US citizens seem to act,which is what the thread is about-


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    #74
    mulbot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭mulbot


    Wompa1 wrote: »
    I have respect for the Vietnam war veterans because you can't make an assumption that they wanted to go to war. The alternative at that time was prison and being treated as a second class citizen when you got out for being a traitor...It must have been terrifying for those young men who didn't know a thing about Vietnam or what the war was for. That's why I respect them.

    WW1 was a war fought in the Trenches. The body count in WW1 and WW2 were massive. Obviously US citizens back in the US were not in harms way due to proximity. Also, the US were slow to get involved in WW2 with the President promising to not get involved with a nation that was tired of war and suffering economic problems. Even with that, they still made a massive sacrifice. They carried out some of the battles that were key to seizing back territories from the Axis.

    Nobody in this country blames the servicemen for anything. I've been here for 4 years. The attitude is that even if you disagree with the wars, you have to support the Troops. I feel as though, I could never actually say this to Americans, particularly in a workplace. My fiance has even warned me about not posting on comment sections of sites or Facebook. If you say anything against the troops, you could pay the price.

    My brother in law is a member of the forces right now. I get a pretty good insight into how it is for them. If you think they get dogs abuse or any negativity. Don't worry about it. It's the opposite. He gets his hole licked so much by people that it's become embarrassing to him.

    That's very true of the Vietnam soldiers,and probably why there was such a high count of returning veterans having such post war psychiatric problems, they were forced into it.I do think now though that there a lot more people serving because they want to simply go to war-and the American media and government through false reporting and mass propaganda has contributed massively to this


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    #75
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,553 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    How the USA treat their soldiers is actually very scary. It's insane how brainwashed people can get and refuse to see it! It's entirely propaganda.

    I was seeing an American marine for a short while and the amount of respect he demanded was shocking. The amount of respect he got was even more shocking. You could not disagree with him or you'd be attacked. I disagreed (strongly, which completely ended any contact) with him on an unrelated subject that had nothing to do with military or remotely related. It just happened to be on a post on Facebook. I then got attacked by his other friends with comments along the lines of "how dare you! Don't you know he's a marine! Have a bit of respect!" etc. I should point out that the guy was a chef and had never actually seen a war. Whatever about seeing the videos and posts about crazy military fanatics, to experience it first hand was something else. These people are genuinely clueless about how ridiculous they are being.


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    #76
    Wompa1
    Registered Users Posts: 8,172 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    mulbot wrote: »
    That's very true of the Vietnam soldiers,and probably why there was such a high count of returning veterans having such post war psychiatric problems, they were forced into it.I do think now though that there a lot more people serving because they want to simply go to war-and the American media and government through false reporting and mass propaganda has contributed massively to this

    Nope. Dirty little secret is that they are forcing people into in a less transparent and possibly even more evil way. You want a good retirement? You won't get that with a job in the private sector? They don't offer a private pension any more. Just 401K and many employees only contribute 3%-6%. If you are in the forces, you get a retirement.

    Want an education? In state tuition costs tens of thousands? Want to go to an Ivy league school or just a school out of state. Potentially 100k+ If you are in the forces, they will pay Education benefits.

    Want healthcare? Even with the evil socialist Healthcare (Obamacare)...people still have to buy insurance, they still pay for healthcare. All they did was fine people who don't have cover. One good thing is that companies must insure you if you have pre-existing conditions...though United Healthcare only made 8 billion profit this year, down 500 million from last year and now they claim they may stop accepting the cheaper brand of insurance....anywho point being, if you're a private citizen, particularly when older you can have mounting medical costs. If you served, you can go to the VA Hospital.

    If you end up unemployed here. You get unemployment for a year then all you get is food stamps. If you served, you can go to the VA for assistance.

    If you're a private citizen walking through an airport in your suit. People will ignore you. If you're a veteran, you'll get your hand shaked and thanked for your service.

    Labor day is about the only day to celebrate regular citizens and even then, it's all geared towards how great this country is and the brave young men and women blah blah blah. Forget about Veterans Day and Memorial Day...

    Go to the airport...if you are old or have a baby you get to go on first..next up? People serving in the forces.

    Go to a Hockey, Baseball, Basketball or Football game and they'll have the guest of honor from the Army, Navy, Marines or whatever.

    Anyways...propaganda is strong over here! Many people don't stand a chance...


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    #77
    whitey1
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭whitey1


    mulbot wrote: »
    My grandfather used to say that the US piggybacked their way into WW2 on the backs of the people who actually put in all the effort-


    Im sure the 407,000 Americans who were killed would respectfully disagree with your grandfather


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    #78
    mulbot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭mulbot


    whitey1 wrote: »
    Im sure the 407,000 Americans who were killed would respectfully disagree with your grandfather

    I'd say so too,however,the number doesn't mean they didn't "piggyback". Look at Iraq,thousands of soldiers have died there too,the US definitely piggybacked themselves into that war


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    #79
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    mulbot wrote: »
    I'd say so too,however,the number doesn't mean they didn't "piggyback". Look at Iraq,thousands of soldiers have died there too,the US definitely piggybacked themselves into that war

    The ignorant anti- American nonsense on Boards actually even extends to the America section.
    You obviously know zero about WW2. Try matching your opinion to some facts. It makes for a less laughable post.


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    #80
    yew_tree
    Registered Users Posts: 543 ✭✭✭yew_tree


    Sadly the anti American brigade have got much louder in recent years. Some people in in this country think they know it all. Hindsight is a great thing when it comes to war's....fact is there is always a human cost on both sides and nearly really and clear winners. Great for us Irish though to stick the boot in from the comfort of that fence we keep sitting on......


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    #81
    mulbot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭mulbot


    LorMal wrote: »
    The ignorant anti- American nonsense on Boards actually even extends to the America section.
    You obviously know zero about WW2. Try matching your opinion to some facts. It makes for a less laughable post.

    I don't think I mentioned that the piggyback thing(with ref. to WW2) was my opinion at all-


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    #82
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    How was pearl harbour piggybacking?

    It doesnt even make any sense.

    :confused:


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    #83
    mulbot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭mulbot


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    How was pearl harbour piggybacking?

    It doesnt even make any sense.

    :confused:


    I can't say,it wasn't my opinion. Were some certain people in power looking for a way into the war? Maybe our aspect of history has been changed from the actual happenings of that time,who knows?


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