Garda hits man with baton NAMA

Clive Bisquette

Galway K9 wrote: »

1 ) Serious Threat = No
2) ISOLATED = errmmmm No

Look Sham...Surrounded by a baying angry mob = Threat.

Small number of gardai / large number of large folks who look like they lay into a good few brekkie rolls...yeah sham...that's isolated in this posters book.

Somebody had to get a pop of a baton to quieten them.....

cython

johann johannson wrote: »

Well, am I wrong to suggest that someone who was released without charge is not subject to charges? I'm not a legal expert or a garda, can you enlighten me on the situation?

Look, you've already agreed that it is possible that there is a file being prepared for the DPP and that he may still be charged. You can't have it every way by conceding that, while also suggesting this is definitive proof of innocence.

The point I am making, however, is that the individual's innocence regarding any assault is utterly irrelevant in the context of the arrest, and thus the release and its circumstances are also irrelevant in that context. He was arrested as a direct result of failing to answer the Gardai's questions regarding his name and address, and we can't say whether or not he would have been arrested in connection with an assault had he copped on and answered the lawfully posed questions.

johann johannson wrote: »

My point in this was that people were looking to attribute blame to the person who was arrested as the main instigator in my father being struck with a baton. If this person has no blame, who do they blame next? It was clear and intended sarcasm. Where to they stop blaming people for what happened?

It really wasn't that clear, to be blunt.

johann johannson wrote: »

If the arrested person was released because he didn't do anything, do we blame the sheriff for crying wolf?
If the sheriff didn't cry wolf, do we blame the hotel for hosting the auction?
If the hotel accepted a fee for the auction, do we blame the auctioneers?
If the auctioneers are paid by NAMA, do we blame them?

See above. The arrest was not for assault, but for refusing to provide a name and address to the Gardai when requested in relation to an alleged assault. The "blame" for the arrest rests with the arrested party, and the would-be-legal counsel around him when he refused to provide his name and address. Simple as.

johann johannson wrote: »

It goes on and on and on.

People are trying to blame the wrong person here, that's my point.


Plus, I've had no dispute on the facts the garda appears in all major incidents of that video.

You mean in a video that follows him around the room as the point of focus, the Gardai is involved in most of what happens? Funny that...... Nah, not really.

johann johannson wrote: »

From what I've heard, from people that were actually there, that garda walked into the room, done a little jig, bowed and waved to the crowd and blew a few kisses, is that cause for instigation?

You finally managed clear sarcasm, congratulations!

johann johannson wrote: »

It appears that he could have actually gone there looking to 'crack a few skulls' and 'teach these protesters a thing or two'? But then, that's my opinion, I'm sure we all know someone that gets riled up before an event, not necessarily a garda.



The arrest was already made. Is my father now a time traveller somehow that he can manipulate events in the past? :rolleyes:




Gorey?

johann johannson

johann johannson wrote: »

Well, am I wrong to suggest that someone who was released without charge is not subject to charges? I'm not a legal expert or a garda, can you enlighten me on the situation?

Isn't it normal procedure to release suspects without charge, pending direction of the DPP. Wasn't this the case with the Jobstown protesters?

@ Cyton, was there not an assault before the cameras started rolling?

cython

Deleted User wrote: »

Isn't it normal procedure to release suspects without charge, pending direction of the DPP. Wasn't this the case with the Jobstown protesters?

@ Cyton, was there not an assault before the cameras started rolling?

There were certainly allegations of an assault. Obviously I'm not in a position to comment on the veracity of the allegations, but once those allegations were made, and the Gardai requested the arrestee's name and address in connection with same, he was legally obliged to provide them. The failure to do so (as opposed to suspicion of assault) was ultimately the cause for the arrest.

The Sun King

Still not sure why the poster needs to consult the video to get the story straight. Being related to the injured party would make it very easy to find out exactly what happened. Unless his father told him a series of events that the video doesn't back up.

Gatling

The Sun King wrote: »

Still not sure why the poster needs to consult the video to get the story straight. Being related to the injured party would make it very easy to find out exactly what happened. Unless his father told him a series of events that the video doesn't back up.

Or isn't related to any of the involved at all

Little CuChulainn

johann johannson wrote: »

The man was away from the crowd and actually outside when the garda took out the baton. If the arrested person was the concern, then why didn't my dad just push by the garda to get to the arrested man?

That looked like exactly what your father was trying to do.

TheDoc wrote: »

But that is kinda the point I'm making. There is a clear trend of Guardaí being that bit more aggressive and resorting to physical aggression to deal with situations. There was a good stretch in my area where you kinda knew the local Guards, they were pretty well respected and dealt with situations a lot more "old school". You know the type, the stereotypical white haired sergeant who'd give the old "ah here whats this messin lads". Even the new Guards that would come onto the scene would be well equipped socially in dealing with teenagers in a non confrontational way and they'd actively try build some rapport.

The problem is that there is a flip side to that. You no longer have teenagers that will listen to that old grey haired sergeant. Instead they put him in hospital. That's why we have 1000 Garda injuries per year. Maybe you are right and those Gardaí were unnecessarily aggressive. It happens. Or maybe they had just found the lad who violently attacked someone around the corner. These days you just can't guess which it is.

johann johannson wrote: »

Well, am I wrong to suggest that someone who was released without charge is not subject to charges? I'm not a legal expert or a garda, can you enlighten me on the situation?

Yes you are wrong.

gctest50

Originally Posted by johann johannson
.......then why didn't my dad just push by the garda to get to the arrested man?

it looks like he was trying sneakily to push the garda to provoke a reaction

then all the crowd would see is the garda sorting it out


just before the garda draws his baton, he seems to be pushing away for all he is worth :


http://s22.postimg.org/nvrq4uuu9/image.jpg

http://s22.postimg.org/ag4pfemch/image.jpg

http://s22.postimg.org/6l1bcu36p/image.jpg

Busted Flat.

gctest50 wrote: »

it looks like he was trying sneakily to push the garda to provoke a reaction

then all the crowd would see is the garda sorting it out


just before the garda draws his baton, he seems to be pushing away for all he is worth :


http://s22.postimg.org/nvrq4uuu9/image.jpg

http://s22.postimg.org/ag4pfemch/image.jpg

http://s22.postimg.org/6l1bcu36p/image.jpg

Great imagination why did you not post the one picture.

gctest50

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Great imagination why did you not post the one picture.

because the three pictures are different

tis one of them new fangled moving picture things

Muahahaha

Can't belive this thread is nearing 50 pages and people are still trying to make out that there's nothing to see here. The Garda lost the plot momentarily in a fit of rage. He was under a lot of pressure and he snapped.

Whats worse is all this is that in 2014 it was revealed that more than half of Gardai are not adequately trained in the use of a baton. Judging by the video evidence posted on this case I'd say it is an odds on bet that this Garda was not trained to use it and what we're seeing is the consequences, namely out of control policing. I'd ascribe more blame on Garda management in the Park as I would on that individual Garda. It's senior Garda managements job to ensure that Gardai on the street are adequately trained to do their job. Clearly this hasn't been the case.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/gardai-open-to-civil-action-over-lack-of-baton-training-265666.html

Gardaí face the risk of a raft of civil actions as members are not properly trained to use batons and pepper sprays.
The Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors said that about 6,000 gardaí are not certified to use either their asp batons or their pepper spray.
It opened gardaí to a corporate risk of being sued, said AGSI president Tim Galvin.

So going by the above if it is found that the Garda in question wasn't adequately trained in the use of his baton then the man hit by it has a legitimate civil action against the State.

Clive Bisquette

Can't belive this thread is nearing 50 pages and people are still trying to make out that there's nothing to see here. The Garda lost the plot momentarily in a fit of rage. He was under a lot of pressure and he snapped.

Not at all my friend ..it's pretty plain to me ...the auld lad was making a nuisance of himself..and got a carefully aimed blow to the shoulder..text book training stuff.

Look at the video again ?

Little CuChulainn

Muahahaha wrote: »

Whats worse is all this is that in 2014 it was revealed that more than half of Gardai are not adequately trained in the use of a baton.

That's not what it actually says. You need to do the training to get the baton. What the article you linked says is that many Gardaí weren't given refresher courses in the use of the baton. They are still trained and the rules are still the same. The re-certification is an internal organisation goal.

_davidsmith_

And the cycle starts again lol

Faugheen

It's plain as day to me that if the first bloke had just given his details and stopped talking ****e about having to 'quote the section' (which, as far as I know, they don't have to do until they get to the station if an arrest is made) then none of this happens.

Did the Garda lose his cool? I think he did, but the aul' fella isn't innocent either.

And another thing, can someone remind these people who harp on about their right to protest that the state can limit their rights, and if they don't believe me then they can ask any solicitor.

Clive Bisquette

Faugheen wrote: »

It's plain as day to me that if the first bloke had just given his details and stopped talking ****e about having to 'quote the section' (which, as far as I know, they don't have to do until they get to the station if an arrest is made) then none of this happens.

Did the Garda lose his cool? I think he did, but the aul' fella isn't innocent either.

And another thing, can someone remind these people who harp on about their right to protest that the state can limit their rights, and if they don't believe me then they can ask any solicitor.

Too right my friend ...if the aul' lad didn't want to be hit because he was an aul' lad then he should not have been in the forefront of the mob right in the Garda's face !

The fact that the Guard landed a precision blow to the aul' lads shoulder proves that he was in control.

An out of control blow would have split the aul' fellas skull ....

Dyr

Clive Bisquette wrote: »

Too right my friend ...if the aul' lad didn't want to be hit because he was an aul' lad then he should not have been in the forefront of the mob right in the Garda's face !

The fact that the Guard landed a precision blow to the aul' lads shoulder proves that he was in control.

An out of control blow would have split the aul' fellas skull ....

I'll tell ye now anyone who thinks that lad was landing a precision blow has never fought with a stick

I'll bet it contravened his own ASP training too

Muahahaha

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

That's not what it actually says. You need to do the training to get the baton. What the article you linked says is that many Gardaí weren't given refresher courses in the use of the baton. They are still trained and the rules are still the same. The re-certification is an internal organisation goal.

Which is why I said that Gardai are not adequately trained rather than saying not trained at all.

You might be able to tell us about the training in the use of a baton- are Gardai trained to draw and strike without warning or is best practice to draw it, warn the person and then react only if completely necessary? In the video the Garda just whips it out with no warning at all. As batons can be lethal weapons i would have thought that a warning before actually using it would be appropriate- anytime I've seen them used in crowd control situations in the UK the police have them drawn ready for use rather than just drawing them and going battering in. I'm doubting that Gardai are trained the way the Garda in the video used it which perhaps suggests that he is one of the 6,000 odd Gardai who need a refresher course in how to use their baton.

pablo128

Muahahaha wrote: »

Which is why I said that Gardai are not adequately trained rather than saying not trained at all.

You might be able to tell us about the training in the use of a baton- are Gardai trained to draw and strike without warning or is best practice to draw it, warn the person and then react only if completely necessary? In the video the Garda just whips it out with no warning at all. As batons can be lethal weapons i would have thought that a warning before actually using it would be appropriate- anytime I've seen them used in crowd control situations in the UK the police have them drawn ready for use rather than just drawing them and going battering in. I'm doubting that Gardai are trained the way the Garda in the video used it which perhaps suggests that he is one of the 6,000 odd Gardai who need a refresher course in how to use their baton.

You probably won't get an answer from that poster. I've asked him why the garda in the video didn't have a crack at the large gentleman shoving him back, just after he lays into the older guy. I'm still waiting on an answer days later.

BorneTobyWilde

In all fairness if you extend one index finger and push a Garda on the shoulder with it
you will be don't for assault.
But a garda can swing a bat to the back of an old mans head and all is fine in the world.

jimboblep

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Well, I wasn't sure myself about that actually and so that's why I didn't refer to him as such. However, at 3m15s (right after he appears to step up from dealing with the man that was being arrested on the ground) he can be seemingly be seen having a go at those recording, and also, if he wasn't a Garda, surely he would have been arrested himself for daring to interfere and push the Garda away. Not saying he is or isn't, but a lot points to him being one than doesn't.



I didn't think I needed to. As quite clearly, his right hand is constantly in the air while he is behind the Garda.

I know that guy personally he is one of the protestors, not going to name him her but he is not a guard

dmc17

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

In all fairness if you extend one index finger and push a Garda on the shoulder with it
you will be don't for assault.
But a garda can swing a bat to the back of an old mans head and all is fine in the world.

Correct. And based on this logic, I personally have made a decision not to go around extending my index fingers upon the shoulders of the Gardaí. It has yet to fail me as I have yet to have a bat swung at the back of my head by a Garda.

Little CuChulainn

Bambi wrote: »

I'll tell ye now anyone who thinks that lad was landing a precision blow has never fought with a stick

I'll bet it contravened his own ASP training too

Spine, neck and head are to be avoided. Arms and legs are the target. Of course, the rules of self defence always apply so if it was a dangerous enough situation you'd still be legally covered no matter where you hit.

pablo128 wrote: »

You probably won't get an answer from that poster. I've asked him why the garda in the video didn't have a crack at the large gentleman shoving him back, just after he lays into the older guy. I'm still waiting on an answer days later.

I didn't see your post. No need to take it personally. I can only guess at which guy you are referring to but I'd imagine it was because there wasn't room to get a proper strike because after he hit the older man there was a push. Personally I think he was stupid to whip out the baton in such a situation because it worked up the crowd and it was very confined but otherwise I have no issue with what he did and if the older fella was wearing a tracksuit and hoodie most people would probably be saying the same thing.

Muahahaha wrote: »

Which is why I said that Gardai are not adequately trained rather than saying not trained at all.

But that is not correct either. The training hasn't changed and change in policy is always communicated to members as it happens.

Muahahaha wrote: »

You might be able to tell us about the training in the use of a baton- are Gardai trained to draw and strike without warning or is best practice to draw it, warn the person and then react only if completely necessary? In the video the Garda just whips it out with no warning at all. As batons can be lethal weapons i would have thought that a warning before actually using it would be appropriate- anytime I've seen them used in crowd control situations in the UK the police have them drawn ready for use rather than just drawing them and going battering in. I'm doubting that Gardai are trained the way the Garda in the video used it which perhaps suggests that he is one of the 6,000 odd Gardai who need a refresher course in how to use their baton.

It's all situational and depends on the Gardas assessment of what's happening. I wouldn't have drawn it because of what I mentioned above but I wasn't there. I can't see what was happening outside of the cameras eye and I don't know all of what was said or done leading up to the incident because it's been edited. Your comparing apples with oranges. This was more like a melee that a crowd control situation so the same procedure can't be followed.

Green Peter

A strike on the shoulder in a crowded room under pressure, on the correct target, well done Garda. Hope the ombudsman have the balls to call it how it is and not drag him through the mud! Scumbags need someone to stand up to them not for them!

NachoBusiness

jimboblep wrote: »

I know that guy personally he is one of the protestors, not going to name him her but he is not a guard

No bother, as I said though, it begs the question as to why he himself wasn't arrested for assaulting a Garda and interfering with them going about their duties then. The Garda's expression when tackled was not one you might expect a member of a Police force to have if and when another member of the public jumps in front of them and stops them from using their baton. It was the expression of someone who knows that what they were doing was wrong.

Clive Bisquette

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Spine, neck and head are to be avoided. Arms and legs are the target. Of course, the rules of self defence always apply so if it was a dangerous enough situation you'd still be legally covered no matter where you hit.



I didn't see your post. No need to take it personally. I can only guess at which guy you are referring to but I'd imagine it was because there wasn't room to get a proper strike because after he hit the older man there was a push. Personally I think he was stupid to whip out the baton in such a situation because it worked up the crowd and it was very confined but otherwise I have no issue with what he did and if the older fella was wearing a tracksuit and hoodie most people would probably be saying the same thing.


But that is not correct either. The training hasn't changed and change in policy is always communicated to members as it happens.



It's all situational and depends on the Gardas assessment of what's happening. I wouldn't have drawn it because of what I mentioned above but I wasn't there. I can't see what was happening outside of the cameras eye and I don't know all of what was said or done leading up to the incident because it's been edited. Your comparing apples with oranges. This was more like a melee that a crowd control situation so the same procedure can't be followed.

Excellent post Cu....you are right on the money...spliff smokers, dozy liberals and dole heads who post here probably will not agree !

kurtainsider

Bumping an old thread here:

What was the outcome of the GSOC investigation into this incident?

suicide_circus

Thanks for bumping, got a good laugh from watching that gif

Potential-Monke

kurtainsider wrote: »

Bumping an old thread here:

What was the outcome of the GSOC investigation into this incident?

Couldn't find anything mentioning an outcome, which to me means one of two things. 1: No proceedings were brought against the Garda, or 2: It's still under investigation (GSOC not known for their timely files...)

Jawgap

kurtainsider wrote: »

Bumping an old thread here:

What was the outcome of the GSOC investigation into this incident?

As of the date of publication of their Annual Report (18/7/16) it was still under investigation.

Probably waiting the outcome of the public disorder prosecution.

222233

would restraining the person not be the most humane first option as opposed to whacking someone with a baton

gctest50

222233 wrote: »

would restraining the person not be the most humane first option as opposed to whacking someone with a baton

Lol try poking police in the ribs abroad n see what happens:

Little CuChulainn

222233 wrote: »

would restraining the person not be the most humane first option as opposed to whacking someone with a baton

If you weren't surrounded it would be.

Laika123

Only saw that video now for first time, there's no way a smack like that was justified, no garda were being assaulted or anything like it, the protesters were protesting an auction where NAMA were going to sell off peoples homes, because the banks repossessed them, because the country went to sh1te because of the banks and people lost their jobs.

And people justifying a copper smacking an elderly man across the head with that force, arseholes.

Gatling

Laika123 wrote: »

And people justifying a copper smacking an elderly man across the head with that force, arseholes.

Except where the man wasn't hit in the head

Laika123

Gatling wrote: »

Except where the man wasn't hit in the head

Where was he hit?, and how do you know he wasn't?

Jawgap

Laika123 wrote: »

Where was he hit?, and how do you know he wasn't?

Gorey

Laika123

Jawgap wrote: »

Gorey

Haha ye sap, I mean what part of the body.

Jawgap

Laika123 wrote: »

Haha ye sap, I mean what part of the body.

Not the head that's for sure - a belt like that would've killed him. Guards usually go for the legs or arse.

Of course the easiest ways to avoid getting a clip are to allow people go about their lawful business, and/or do what a Guard tells you instead of crowding him

arybvtcw0eolkf

Gatling wrote: »

Except where the man wasn't hit in the head

So what, neck, shoulder, arm.. I couldn't give a rats arse, that was a scum thing to do to an unarmed man.

I can only hope karma comes visiting that fat fook.

Laika123

Jawgap wrote: »

Not the head that's for sure - a belt like that would've killed him. Guards usually go for the legs or arse.

Of course the easiest ways to avoid getting a clip are to allow people go about their lawful business, and/or do what a Guard tells you instead of crowding him

Well nobody can tell exactly where he was hit, the video is 25fps, and going frame by frame it doesn't where he was or wasn't struck, the best I can make out it was just below the ear, top of neck.

And lawful isn't always right.

Jawgap

Laika123 wrote: »

Well nobody can tell exactly where he was hit, the video is 25fps, and going frame by frame it doesn't where he was or wasn't struck, the best I can make out it was just below the ear, top of neck.

And lawful isn't always right.

If he got a belt in the head he'd have been hospitalised if not dead. Plus, if the Guards wanted to or intended to get physical they'd have gone in heavy in full public order gear. As far as I can see the Guard found himself surrounded in a confined space by a pressing crowd - you get a warning to get back, and if you don't, it can't come as a surprise when you get clipped.

They were on private property, disrupting the hotel and the staff trying to earn an honest day's wage - hotel work isn't the best paid so you don't need to be dealing with that sh1te.

No reason why they couldn't have made their protest from the public road.

Ted111

Faye Powerful Rob wrote: »

So what, neck, shoulder, arm.. I couldn't give a rats arse, that was a scum thing to do to an unarmed man.

I can only hope karma comes visiting that fat fook.

Technically you're right. Absolutely a scumbag.
But it's good the guy was hit. A real pity he wasn't seriously injured. He needs to be injured and to die in pain. As do a whole bunch of the others there.

Little CuChulainn

Faye Powerful Rob wrote: »

So what, neck, shoulder, arm.. I couldn't give a rats arse, that was a scum thing to do to an unarmed man.

I can only hope karma comes visiting that fat fook.

Bit extreme. It was a shoulder strike. The garda was surrounded by a mob and needed to create space. Never pushed back a crowd of people in your career?

Laika123

Ted111 wrote: »

Technically you're right. Absolutely a scumbag.
But it's good the guy was hit. A real pity he wasn't seriously injured. He needs to be injured and to die in pain. As do a whole bunch of the others there.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Not worth getting banned over some hardman idiot.

Laika123

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Bit extreme. It was a shoulder strike. The garda was surrounded by a mob and needed to create space. Never pushed back a crowd of people in your career?

He said he didn't care, neck, shoulder, arm, it was a scummy thing to do.

Surrounded by a mob?, are you for real, do you really think he thought he was in danger, he was inches away from cracking an old age pensioners skull because of people talking loud at worse.

That's not pushing back a crowd.

Ted111

Laika123 wrote: »

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Not worth getting banned over some hardman idiot.

roll eyes always has been the way to spot a twat.

I was speaking in the abstact - it is good he was hurt. I didn't say I would hurt him. Read again slowly a few times. I'm not a hard man. I'm a five year old girl.

Laika123

Ted111 wrote: »

roll eyes always has been the way to spot a twat.

I was speaking in the abstact - it is good he was hurt. I didn't say I would hurt him. Read again slowly a few times. I'm not a hard man. I'm a five year old girl.

No your a coward and a fool.

Ted111

Laika123 wrote: »

No your a coward and a fool.

All you have is roll eyes and ad hominem.

Like your laughable fifty posts in the 'gaeltacht man leaves job' thread' talking about linguistics from what you just read on wikipedia.

222233

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

If you weren't surrounded it would be.

Didn't look like any of those people were trying to attack the garda, looked like one guy was helping restrain the guy who got hit.