Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

stoplooklisten

Billy86 wrote: »

You can't, and those ideas are good examples because they were not killed. Homophobia is still prevalent in society today, and slave ownership as well as indentured servitude still exist.

Surely you don't think homophobia and slavery no longer exist, and are no longer ideas?

Both are however more marginalised. So let me ask you this... was homophobia being the norm overcome by hacking and torturing every homophobe in the world to pieces? And was slavery being the norm overcome by butchering all the slave owners in the world, and their families as well?

condemnation by their immediate community, public outcry and shown the error of their ways has changed attitudes. Where's the condemnation from the community?

JPNelsforearm

Billy86 wrote: »

You can't, and those ideas are good examples because they were not killed. Homophobia is still prevalent in society today, and slave ownership as well as indentured servitude still exist.

Surely you don't think homophobia and slavery no longer exist, and are no longer ideas?

Both are however more marginalised. So let me ask you this... was homophobia being the norm overcome by hacking and torturing every homophobe in the world to pieces? And was slavery being the norm overcome by butchering all the slave owners in the world, and their families as well?

I'd say the 400k odd dead in the US civil war, the dead in the Barbary wars would say, yes, to some degree.

Nodin

Hitchens wrote: »

there are areas of European cities which have become poisonous breeding grounds for radicalized Islamic terror.

the enemy is within, born and bred, ...........but alien to our mores

Not at all worrying.

Billy86

stoplooklisten wrote: »

condemnation by their immediate community, public outcry and shown the error of their ways has changed attitudes. Where's the condemnation from the community?

What, homophobes condemned other homophobes into no longer being homophobic? Or did slave owners condemn other slave owners about their slavery until they decided to free their slaves?

And once again, are you claiming homophobia and slavery no longer exist?

stoplooklisten

Billy86 wrote: »

What, homophobes condemned other homophobes into no longer being homophobic? Or did slave owners condemn other slave owners about their slavery until they decided to free their slaves?

And once again, are you claiming homophobia and slavery no longer exist?

Are you telling me you can openly and proudly be homophobic or a slave owner in Ireland and not be shunned by society?

Billy86

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

I'd say the 400k odd dead in the US civil war, the dead in the Barbary wars would say, yes, to some degree.

I would say the fact that slavery exists still today, and did after the civil war would say, no, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Homophobia and slavery are about as dead as you and I.

Billy86

stoplooklisten wrote: »

Are you telling me you can openly and proudly be homophobic or a slave owner in Ireland and not be shunned by society?

I'm telling you the ideas and practices of homophobia and slavery are very much alive today. They were not killed, and claims they were are proven incorrect by... the very existence of homophobia and slavery.

stoplooklisten

Billy86 wrote: »

I'm telling you the ideas and practices of homophobia and slavery are very much alive today. They were not killed, and claims they were are proven incorrect by... the very existence of homophobia and slavery.

How many slaves do you own?

Billy86

stoplooklisten wrote: »

How many slaves do you own?

How many terrorist attacks have you committed? I'd imagine they're a similar number.

Can we celebrate the killing of terrorism now?

fed up sick and tired

Billy86 wrote: »

I would say the fact that slavery exists still today, and did after the civil war would say, no, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Homophobia and slavery are about as dead as you and I.

Depends on how you define 'idea'.

I say that the idea of slavery is dead.

In other words, the belief in it and acceptance of it as a legitimate aspiration, or social structure, or economic transaction is overwhelmingly rejected.

The fact that the phenomenon is experienced by misfortunate people, doesn't change that.

The revulsion that accompanies its exposition proves that as an idea it is dead.

Ally Dick

Do Ireland still allow US military flights to stopover at Shannon ?

JCX BXC

Ally Dick wrote: »

Do Ireland still allow US military flights to stopover at Shannon ?

Considering you're actually asking, I'd say your preparing for a rant.

Troops stop over in Shannon, unarmed. I can see ISIS having better targets than a relatively small airport in the sparsely populated West Of Ireland, which has an extremely lacking muslim population in comparison to the rest of europe.

If you wish to call conspiracy, go ahead, won't help anyone though.

Billy86

fed up sick and tired wrote: »

Depends on how you define 'idea'.

I say that the idea of slavery is dead.

In other words, the belief in it and acceptance of it as a legitimate aspiration, or social structure, or economic transaction is overwhelmingly rejected.

The fact that the phenomenon is experienced by misfortunate people, doesn't change that.

The revulsion that accompanies its exposition proves that as an idea it is dead.

It still occurs more regularly than people would expect though, and thus it is not dead.

Someone posted a while back (abusestoilets I think) particular forms of military action are needed - and I filly agree - but you have to win over the hearts and minds of the everyday people in that area or any harsh actions (or even not so harsh ones) will be spun by IS to radicalise young Muslims.

The talk of torturing families and bombing the area to rubble, or even strong and dignified/fairer (EG not torture) military action on its own is exactly what IS want and plays directly into their hands on this front. Even if IS were to be eradicated, someone else would take their spot straight away, and if anything would be even more radical and closed off to talks.

Yeah_Right

^^^^
Talks!! You actually think talking to them will resolve this? I think that's deluded.

kupus

maybe we can have a circle of trust and talk about our feelings with them.

useful idiots indeed. Talking only plays into their hands. Because while your talking they are doing. Doing what is another question.

Billy86

Yeah_Right wrote: »

^^^^
Talks!! You actually think talking to them will resolve this? I think that's deluded.

Hence why I said "even more".

JackieBauer

**** Syria and Iraq. Put armed forces in certain neighbourhoods in Paris, Brussels, Berlin, London, Birmingham, Bradford etc. etc for the foreseeable future. If the locals are innocent they might actually appreciate the added security. Time to get tough. Enough is enough! Unfortunately, I'm afraid we'll need another few of these attacks in the west before people get real.

BoatMad

JackieBauer wrote: »

**** Syria and Iraq. Put armed forces in certain neighbourhoods in Paris, Brussels, Berlin, London, Birmingham, Bradford etc. etc for the foreseeable future. If the locals are innocent they might actually appreciate the added security. Time to get tough. Enough is enough! Unfortunately, I'm afraid we'll need another few of these attacks in the west before people get real.

I personally think that if this continues or gets markedly worse, then Europe will see internment as an option. You simply cant deal with this stuff through conventional civil justice

fr336

BoatMad wrote: »

I personally think that if this continues or gets markedly worse, then Europe will see internment as an option. You simply cant deal with this stuff through conventional civil justice

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

KingBrian2

More deadly explosions this week in Iraq and Pakistan. This time a football match as they were giving out a trophy to the winning soccer team. More devastating attacks against innocent Muslims in their own countries without us worrying about terrorism at home Muslim countries are have it hard themselves.

JPNelsforearm

BoatMad wrote: »

I personally think that if this continues or gets markedly worse, then Europe will see internment as an option. You simply cant deal with this stuff through conventional civil justice

No, we are far too gone as a people (in terms of press, education, politicians etc) down the path of political correctness for that to happen. The concept of borders are viewed as a violent and racist anathema by our EU overlords and many of our own politicians. More likely it will be the silent erosion of OUR rights, increased security for us, because god forbid the security services are seen as racist.

Physical solutions are the answer, rendition, land and maritime border enforcement, forced deportations, stripping citizenship etc. None of that will happen in the foreseeable future, we have gotten sated and lazy, we take our rights and way of life as a given, its only the Eastern Euro states who suffered under communism who will survive(until the CIA intervenes as they did in the Balkans)

ilkhanid

volchitsa wrote: »

The IRA always had some Protestant members, even during the Troubles - and there was no expectation that they would convert. How many non Muslims would you expect to find among Islamic terrorists?

You could say though that the common denominator was being Irish. And you would have a point.

To be precise:How many non-Sunni Muslims would you expect to find among Islamic terrorists? None and one can say that without qualification.

old_aussie wrote: »

If muslims don't know what the true version of islam is, then how can they say IS is NOT the true version.
Just because the majority say that IS is wrong doesn't make it true.
The majority of people once believed that the earth was flat and that didn't make the earth flat, NO they were ALL WRONG

Can we make one thing clear. This is religion. This is not geology or entomology. So there can be no ultimate truth, no one person or group can be the ultimare arbiters of an religion-or ideology or philosophy for that matter. There is no revealed truth or can ever be. In religion things change. In 1907 Pope Pius the Tenth attacked modernism. Now his views are derided, but then they were accepted by Catholics worldwide. But in the end, it doesn't matter;there is no final standard by which we can declare Pius wrong or Francis right. Those who control the institution make the rules. Those who control the interpretations set the standard. In the end, there is no special essence of Islam that we can grasp or that debate can reveal. In short Islam is what Muslims say and do.

Nodin wrote: »

Muslims can't agree the "true version", so I'm not going to think I can do one better. As the vast majority of muslims and muslim scholars think IS are wrong and don't do what they do I'll take their actions over others opnions.

As the vast majority of Muslim theologians are hair-splitting fools I doubt that their opinion on anything has a shred of credibility. "Venerable" institutions like the Al-Azhar in Cairo have wasted their time on nonsense like this....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rada_%28fiqh%29
Do I have to remind everybody that among those Islamic "thinkers" who condemned Is were the so-called Council of Senior Scholars of Saudi Arabia-highly influential in the Muslim world- whose other ideas are that women can't drive vehicles and that witches should be beheaded. The words and actions of fools and fanatics are so much worthless trash and I wouldn't take their actions or words over that of a junkie standing mumbling outside a methadone clinic.

Billy86 wrote: »

I would say the fact that slavery exists still today, and did after the civil war would say, no, beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Homophobia and slavery are about as dead as you and I.

That sounds like a ridiculously absolutist position. We're not dealing with smallpox here where it's not declared at an end until the last cell is safe in a phial in the CDC. So because the USA failed the destroy all slavery everywhere the Civil War was futile. That's nonsense. The American assault on the Barbary pirates, Lincoln's War and British campaign against slavers ended slavery in the western Hemisphere to all intents and purposes. That's a pretty good and useful result. The Second World War didn't end Nazism completely for that matter, but I still consider it worthwhile.

BoatMad

fr336 wrote: »

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

true, but open civil democracies have very little option as to what ti do when presented with situations of this type. If you retain the feature of an open EU , free movement of people, no internal borders, a relatively free society, then you rapidly end up with a funnel of options and at the end is internment ( or mass deportation , which is somewhat the same )

its no more then the US did to its Japanese citizens during ww2 and in fact its been used throughput history with some albeit temporary benefits

Im not saying it fixes everything, but ultimately you either remove all civil freedoms for all civilians and in effect bring martial law onto the streets, or you simply lock up based on profiling

of course the alternative is what we have now, a passive acceptance that people just get killed randomly

Christy42

BoatMad wrote: »

its no more then the US did to its Japanese citizens during ww2 and in fact its been used throughput history with some albeit temporary benefits

Not generally thought as have being a good idea these days.

Billy86

ilkhanid wrote: »

That sounds like a ridiculously absolutist position. We're not dealing with smallpox here where it's not declared at an end until the last cell is safe in a phial in the CDC. So because the USA failed the destroy all slavery everywhere the Civil War was futile. That's nonsense. The American assault on the Barbary pirates, Lincoln's War and British campaign against slavers ended slavery in the western Hemisphere to all intents and purposes. That's a pretty good and useful result. The Second World War didn't end Nazism completely for that matter, but I still consider it worthwhile.

Not at all - there are still parts of the world where slavery and homophobia are seen as the norm... but not in Ireland. No different to terrorism or extremism. The Nazi's didn't magically die off when Hitler pulled the trigger on himself, public opinion from within when they saw the extent of everything played a much further role. If the German people still wanted Nazism at that point, it would not have gone away. It's not like the moment the Nazi's surrendered, the German people all took a quick 180 and realised what had been happening was wrong after all.