No road tax or tolls on electric cars *- FF plan

steelboots

Have a Leaf SVE with 6.6 charger order for Jan 2016, can't wait.

I not involved in politics and certainly not shouting for FF but if some of the promises could be delivered by the next government (who ever they will be) it would be great. i.e. Free road tax, free electric (or even a modest pay per use charge), free tolls and use bus lanes it would help boost the EV sales.

Its amazing the ignorance around EVs, when I told my mates I was buying one they would not believe me. Maybe there right but I think its an ideal car for commuting and as a second car.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/no-road-tax-or-tolls-on-electric-cars-ff-plan-34201659.html

Lets hope common sense prevails and we see some extra benefits Free tolls and road tax would save me a further €1,000+ per year.

steelboots

steelboots wrote: »

Have a Leaf SVE with 6.6 charger order for Jan 2016, can't wait.

I not involved in politics and certainly not shouting for FF but if some of the promises could be delivered by the next government (who ever they will be) it would be great. i.e. Free road tax, free electric (or even a modest pay per use charge), free tolls and use bus lanes it would help boost the EV sales.

Its amazing the ignorance around EVs, when I told my mates I was buying one they would not believe me. Maybe there right but I think its an ideal car for commuting and as a second car.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/no-road-tax-or-tolls-on-electric-cars-ff-plan-34201659.html

Lets hope common sense prevails and we see some extra benefits Free tolls and road tax would save me a further €1,000+ per year.

Did you order the 30 Kwh ? 6.6 Kw charger good choice ! press the ESB for the 32 amp home charge point, the more people who do this the more they might actually listen , you can install the 32 amp yourself later if you wish. It's handy for the normal street charge points.

Don't be banking on FF doing anything, all pre election promises, at the end of the day they might get 100 people to vote because of this, I certainly don't believe it.

A lot of people don't get electric cars, despite me getting an EV and driving 134 Kms daily the 2 neighbours got diesels despite never having Diesel before. All for the cheaper road tax, all I could say was "why ?" the answer , "we do loads of miles" and "Paul "not real name" wouldn't touch one of them electric yokes" lol mad but they're not alone in their thinking.

steelboots

I'm no hater of Electric Vehicles, but...

steelboots wrote: »

free tolls and use bus lanes

Neither of those should ever be given to EV owners. They are still a private vehicle on the road taking up space. Letting them use bus lanes is such a backward notion I could actually see it being considered!


That aside, I do think the general Joe Soap is a bit unsure of EV due to the whole charging thing. It's never been explained properly to anyone. As someone with a mild interest in them (on a busy day I'd do 500km+, and i'd do this for several days in a row, constantly against the clock, so an EV wouldn't work for me) i've no idea how you go about charging them.

If this was explained in the simplest joe soap terms to people, then more people might take interest.

But even at that, I'm seeing a few more EV's on the road these days. They were never gonna become the biggest seller overnight. Their sales seem to be slowly but surely increasing, and anyone buying into one knows that these 'freebies' are going to end at some point anyway. As soon as EVs become anyway popular they'll be taxed at a marginal rate anyway (and year on year this will increase, like everything else, until you're just back where you started).

The only people who'll really benefit are those that are driving them now (ie; the 'early birds', but a lot of people are happy to let ye guys try them out, so 'someone else can have the horror stories').

I don't think many people want to be the first ones to jump into what's still considered relatively unknown. Everyone understands how petrol and diesel work and until the workings of EVs becomes more 'common knowledge' and people can see more charge points, etc. (at the moment, there's still a fear of running out of power in the ass end of nowhere and being stuck) they'll start to look a bit more reliable, I reckon, and that's when they'll come into their own a bit more.



... But that's just my rambling viewpoint!

steelboots

MadLad, went for the SVE 24kw with 6.6Kw charger. Yes one could say would have been better going for the SV 30Kw with 6.6Kw charger but I really don't see myself needing the range, perfer the leather seats (have kids) and the bose sound system. I do 86km round trip to work per day and they are installing a charging point in work, so in the evening if I have to do a couple of trips to matches etc.. will be no problem. I make about 5 long trips per year and even the longer range would not get me one way so would simply take the wifes car.

KKV, you make a good point, the info around charging is difficult to understand and I'm not entirely sure I fully understand and that's after doing some research. But for me I won't be using the ESB charging points unless I'm completely stuck and it would probably be the fast chargers (Blue points on the ESB map).

Yes it sounds like an EV would not suit your needs, 500km is a whopping mileage to do in a day, but maybe down the road if ranges and charging times improve you never know....

Take your point on using bus lanes, but I thing we need to get more EVs into cities as the pollution today is dreadful. I hate walking the busy streets it makes me sick at times, and I don't have breathing difficulties.. and then there's the noise pollution.

steelboots

Deleted User wrote: »

Did you order the 30 Kwh ? 6.6 Kw charger good choice ! press the ESB for the 32 amp home charge point, the more people who do this the more they might actually listen , you can install the 32 amp yourself later if you wish. It's handy for the normal street charge points.

Regarding the 32amp charger, excuse my ignorance but what is the advantage ? and on what basis are the ESB refusing ? Would quality of wiring in the house be a factor ? are they running form the fuse box or from the meter box where the electric comes in ? Any advice or reasons I can push the ESB I'm be glad to hear them.

Villain

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm no hater of Electric Vehicles, but...



Neither of those should ever be given to EV owners. They are still a private vehicle on the road taking up space. Letting them use bus lanes is such a backward notion I could actually see it being considered!


That aside, I do think the general Joe Soap is a bit unsure of EV due to the whole charging thing. It's never been explained properly to anyone. As someone with a mild interest in them (on a busy day I'd do 500km+, and i'd do this for several days in a row, constantly against the clock, so an EV wouldn't work for me) i've no idea how you go about charging them.

If this was explained in the simplest joe soap terms to people, then more people might take interest.

But even at that, I'm seeing a few more EV's on the road these days. They were never gonna become the biggest seller overnight. Their sales seem to be slowly but surely increasing, and anyone buying into one knows that these 'freebies' are going to end at some point anyway. As soon as EVs become anyway popular they'll be taxed at a marginal rate anyway (and year on year this will increase, like everything else, until you're just back where you started).

The only people who'll really benefit are those that are driving them now (ie; the 'early birds', but a lot of people are happy to let ye guys try them out, so 'someone else can have the horror stories').

I don't think many people want to be the first ones to jump into what's still considered relatively unknown. Everyone understands how petrol and diesel work and until the workings of EVs becomes more 'common knowledge' and people can see more charge points, etc. (at the moment, there's still a fear of running out of power in the ass end of nowhere and being stuck) they'll start to look a bit more reliable, I reckon, and that's when they'll come into their own a bit more.



... But that's just my rambling viewpoint!

Look and Norway and then come back with an informed opinion.

steelboots

steelboots wrote: »

MadLad, went for the SVE 24kw with 6.6Kw charger. Yes one could say would have been better going for the SV 30Kw with 6.6Kw charger but I really don't see myself needing the range, perfer the leather seats (have kids) and the bose sound system. I do 86km round trip to work per day and they are installing a charging point in work, so in the evening if I have to do a couple of trips to matches etc.. will be no problem. I make about 5 long trips per year and even the longer range would not get me one way so would simply take the wifes car.

Yeah I have the work charger so 134 kms daily for me isn't a problem and 10 mins on the fast charger didn't bother me much but it's nice to have the work charge point. The 30 kwh would be of benefit on a long run with faster charging or same time for more range.

steelboots wrote: »

But for me I won't be using the ESB charging points unless I'm completely stuck and it would probably be the fast chargers (Blue points on the ESB map).

You'll be surprised how much you will use the Leaf and this is where the 6.6 Kw comes in , if you take a longer trip and find a standard street charger it will charge from 25-90% in about 2 hrs or close. On the fast charger charging to 80% can take 20-30 mins depending on battery temp. So the 6.6 Kw and normal street charge points can be quiet convenient.

When I travel to dublin roughly 160-170 Kms round trip I'll plug into the normal charge points go about my business and it's usually charged by the time I'm finished so I'll go and move it but then I come back to a charged car and don't have to sit and wait at a fast charger, really convenient. There are times though I need to use the fast chargers.

steelboots wrote: »

Take your point on using bus lanes, but I thing we need to get more EVs into cities as the pollution today is dreadful. I hate walking the busy streets it makes me sick at times, and I don't have breathing difficulties.. and then there's the noise pollution.

Old diesels and Buses are the worst, and Dublin Bus continuing to buy diesel buses, There are a lot of electric buses in China in big cities, no reason it can't work in a small place like dublin.

We also have a lot of private bus fleets in Ireland running ancient high polluting Diesels, school buses and the likes.

Villain

Villain wrote: »

Look and Norway and then come back with an informed opinion.

But the whole point was that my opinion is relatively uninformed? (ie; I'm the average joe soap that the dealers/govt need to sell the EV to).


But my belief (rightly or wrongly) is that the ESB have to install a permanent charge point in your home? So in my case (renting) that's that out the window immediately. So in order to benefit from an EV you also have to be a home owner.


5 years from now they'll be much more common (although I reckon hybrids will be the main seller). I'd also get concerned at things like carrying loads in them? I know that if I pack my car full of heavy gear and 4 passengers, I'll use more diesel on my journey, but how adversely does this kinda thing affect EVs? Is it substantial or negligible?


If I was working a 9-5 job in a fixed location and needed a car for work, I'd be feeling out EVs. Anyone with a bit of common sense should be. But people are image conscious. I reckon the first EV that's an SUV that looks like it can go off-road and such (think Rav4, Pajero, etc) will be a massive seller.

bk

A couple of interesting points in this thread.

I certainly wouldn't criticise people for being slow to take up new technologies. In particular when it comes to the second most expensive thing you ever buy and for most people is expected to last years.

And it really isn't certain that BEV's are suitable for most people at the moment.

I'm a super geek, I'm an early adopter of all sorts of interesting technologies, I've a wifi controlled thermostat, door lock, lights, etc. Just as an example. I'm a big fan of using technology to reduce our impact on our environment. Yet despite all that it took me weeks of research to figure out how the charging works, the time taken and the costs involved and in the end, I came to the conclusion that BEV's aren't ready for me use case yet * and I'm simply better off with a cheap "dirty" diesel or hybrid.

* Zero daily commute, mostly use car at weekend on relatively long distance trips to Cork, Wicklow, etc.

If it takes that much research for a highly motivated geek like me, then I'm really not surprised that average joe has so little interest in it.

And that is why I'm so angry with ESB eCars, overnight with their hamfisted pricing structure they have killed off BEV's for at least the next 3 years for the vast majority of people IMO. Incredibly stupid.

steelboots wrote: »

Take your point on using bus lanes, but I thing we need to get more EVs into cities as the pollution today is dreadful. I hate walking the busy streets it makes me sick at times, and I don't have breathing difficulties.. and then there's the noise pollution.

I don't think EV's should be allowed in bus lanes. While I'm a fan of EV's as part of reducing our impact on the environment, increasing public transport is even more important on reaching that goal.

We shouldn't be blocking up bus lanes with single occupant EV's, getting in the way of buses carrying 80+ people and having one of the smallest effects of CO2 per passenger km (only bicycles and pedestrians are better).

However I would agree with other suggestions, free tolls, free road tax, no subs for using the FCP's (but a fair per kwh charge), free parking, etc.

At least for a few years to help EV's take off.

Deleted User wrote: »

Old diesels and Buses are the worst, and Dublin Bus continuing to buy diesel buses, There are a lot of electric buses in China in big cities, no reason it can't work in a small place like dublin.

We also have a lot of private bus fleets in Ireland running ancient high polluting Diesels, school buses and the likes.

Well one thing to remember, that while buses may use dirty Diesel, they carry lots of passengers, so the amount of pollutants they expel per passenger km, is some of the lowest of any form of motorised transport.

Dublin Bus did previously trial Hybrid buses and natural gas buses, but they didn't work well at all. They simply weren't reliable.

Remember given how little impact buses have on CO2, it is more important they run a reliable service that attracts lots of new passengers, then having hybrid buses, which end up being unreliable (lots of breakdowns) and ends up having people return to their cars.

The good news is for next years tender for new buses, DB have tendered for 9 hybrid buses, 3 of 3 different models so they can try out the latest technology. Hopefully one of these models will prove to be reliable and affordable and we will see DB switch to more and more of them in time.

One of the difficulties we face is the fact that we are a let hand drive market. They can't simply buy such battery buses from China as the Chinese companies simply don't produce left hand drive vehicles. So instead they have to wait for the usual Irish and UK companies who produce left hand drive buses and who are fairly conservative, to start producing decent hybrids.

BTW it is also slightly unfair to attack the private bus industry like that. Yes, there are many small companies operating complete bangers. But there are also some top tier private companies who have fantastic fleets of brand new buses. For instance, I don't think Citylink has a single bus that is more then 5 years old, running a fleet of immaculate, super high spec Vanhool buses, massively better then anything any other company operates in Ireland. Then you have Aircoach who has bought 12 new coaches in the past 12 months.

bk

bk wrote: »

Well one thing to remember, that while buses may use dirty Diesel, they carry lots of passengers, so the amount of pollutants they expel per passenger km, is some of the lowest of any form of motorised transport.

Dublin Bus did previously trial Hybrid buses and natural gas buses, but they didn't work well at all. They simply weren't reliable.

Remember given how little impact buses have on CO2, it is more important they run a reliable service that attracts lots of new passengers, then having hybrid buses, which end up being unreliable (lots of breakdowns) and ends up having people return to their cars.

Co2 isn't even close to what makes Diesel buses, or Diesel vehicles dirty. Co2 is not a harmful gas. It's the Nox and other emissions that make exhaust nasty. So diesel fails miserably and commercial vehicles usually get away with higher emissions levels than passenger cars.

Some buses are quiet clean that use Ad Blue such as Mercedes.

Unfortunately the media love making sensational claims about Co2 which they either deliberately misinform the public or are just too bloody ignorant or those who control the media have other agendas either way misinforming the public as to the real dangers of exhaust emissions is just plain wrong if not immoral !

The media are just puppets today and relay whatever crap they find on the internet ! There are very few proper professional Journalists today !

The EPA didn't just pick on Volkswagen for nothing, Diesel is nasty stuff and European exhaust regulations are pathetic in comparison to the U.S !

bk

Sigh, Mad_Lad, I'm well aware of all of that.

In fact reducing NOX emissions is the primary reason I'm interested in EV's, being an asthmatic and living in Dublin City, CO2 is secondary.

But my point still stands, the amount of NOX released per passenger KM makes even dirty diesel buses one of the cleanest forms of motorised transport. Dublin Bus buses can carry up to 120 passengers per bus (the tri-axle models), can you imagine how much more NOX that would be if those 120 people decided to drive an individual Diesel car instead?!

So again reliability and attracting as many people to buses is more important then going with unreliable new bus technology.

BTW One point I forgot to make above. BEV buses do exist and are in use, but you will notice that all the current models available are single deckers. You will also notice that Dublin Buses fleet is 100% double decker, so those single deck BEV buses aren't of any use to DB.

Why no Double Decker BEV's? The issue is where do you put the batteries. On the single decker BEV buses, they put them on the rough, but obviously that won't work for a double decker. Put batteries on the roof and it is too tall and runs into bridges and is also top heavy and likely to topple over.

Excitingly, BYD, the major maker of BEV buses has announced they have solved the problem and are going to trial a BEV with London Bus. But they still haven't actually delivered one, so we are yet to see if they are real.

So you can't really blame DB for not having BEV buses. Where you can criticise them is that they don't have Hybrid buses. London Buses have been trialling them and now they are moving over to them on mass due to good results. Dublin Bus are usually a few years behind London as they are more conservative, but hopefully we will see them switch to Hybrids in the short term too and hopefully the BEV Double Deckers also work out and we see them move to those too in the longer term.

steelboots

There a cohort of people that won't use the bus or it just doesn't work.

If you are a regular bus user then no matter what incentives are put in place for EVs its unlightly they will stop using the bus and start driving EVs around the city. i.e. they probably can't afford a car, have no parking facilities etc...

However if you could get a reasonable percentage (e.g. 20%) of those driving ordinary cars switching to EVs it would be a massive improvement to the city environment, reduced noise etc..

I think initiatives to get more people to use the bus, cleaner buses and more EVs can work together and not against each other.

But there has to be more initiatives to get more EVs on the road such as free parking, free eletric points, free tolls and use of bus lanes (until the number of EVs start getting too large).

bk

I look at it as a higher level of EV's versus buses or anything like that. The goals in order of importance are:

1) Get more people walking and cycling (e.g. Amsterdam)
2) Get more people using public transport (and make it cleaner).
3) Move cars towards EVs

BTW even if 100% of cars were EV's and everyone could afford them, walking, cycling and public transport would still be the priority for inside the M50. Cars make up just 20% of people who enter the city (and dropping), there simply isn't enough space in our ancient, narrow, medieval streets of the city to cope with 20% of people using cars, never mind 100%.

I agree that there will always be a need for cars. But ideally those cars are EV's, but are left at home Monday to Friday and people commute to work by bike or public transport and only take the car out in the evening and weekends for trips that are hard to make by public transport.

Of course I'm largely talking about Dublin City here (along with Cork City, etc.), out in rural Ireland you have a different story.

BTW I forgot to mention earlier that our NOX levels in Dublin, Cork, etc. are actually pretty reasonable, under the allowed limit and far lower then the likes of London and Paris. However that isn't due to any great government initiative, it is due purely to our geography and weather patterns that tends to clear any local NOX very quickly.

Having said that, we should still be doing more to reduce it even further. Specially when you see Ireland has one of the highest rates of asthma in the world!

More roads are not the solution to Dublin's traffic problem, we need to start building an Underground, but no one in Government has vision or cares about the future for Dublin.

They will build another M50 before they build a proper public transport network in Ireland.

Buses just mean people have to continue to rely on slow mode of polluting transport, they need to link all the industrial areas too with a proper rail network, almost everything here can only be accessed by road.

Irish people will not give up their cars unless there is a decent transport network and sadly for us the next 50 years will continue to see higher traffic volumes.

The N7/M7 is due a massive upgrade next year but again, this is only a solution for the short term.

Bigger better roads will mean more people want to take the car.

Everything in Ireland is planned wrong, look at all the one off housing that has destroyed the countryside in Ireland, and all the road network that has to be maintained , all the little country roads. ridiculous !

Proper cycle lanes would be great and off road not a bus lane or on the foot path. There are plenty of tiny side streets in Dublin that could be closed to traffic. Such lack of political will to change in Ireland. All politicians are interested in in serving the minimum time and getting their big fat pensions, they don't care about anything else.

bk

Deleted User wrote: »

Irish people will not give up their cars unless there is a decent transport network and sadly for us the next 50 years will continue to see higher traffic volumes.

Simply not true, 80% of people who enter Dublin city center every day do so by walking, cycling or public transport. A mere 20% do so by car and that includes many many people who own cars but opt to leave them at home when they go to work every day.

We are already well beyond the point of getting people out of cars.

I'm a big fan of rail based transport, but the reality is Dublin Bus is actually the number 1 means of transport in Dublin, it carries twice as many people daily as DART and Luas. And while I certainly hope Metro North and DART Underground are built soon, DB will still be vitally important to moving people around Dublin in an environmentally friendly way.

While things are slow to change, they definitely are changing and the NTA and Dublin City Council have major plans for closing many of the city center streets to general cars.

They have major plans for College Green, Westmoreland Street, O'Connell Bridge and the quays to either side of it to ban cars from these streets and make them cycling and public transport only.

While there will be road building outside the M50, there are no plans at all for any new roads inside the M50, in fact quiet the opposite, all the plans are for reducing the amount of cars and road space for them, while increasing space for buses, cyclists and pedestrians.

BoatMad

I don't think EV's should be allowed in bus lanes. While I'm a fan of EV's as part of reducing our impact on the environment, increasing public transport is even more important on reaching that goal.

We shouldn't be blocking up bus lanes with single occupant EV's, getting in the way of buses carrying 80+ people and having one of the smallest effects of CO2 per passenger km (only bicycles and pedestrians are better).

However I would agree with other suggestions, free tolls, free road tax, no subs for using the FCP's (but a fair per kwh charge), free parking, etc.

At least for a few years to help EV's take off.

It makes complete sense to allow EVs to occupy bus lanes for a initial period of a few years, the numbers are minuscule and it would be a real incentive. There no more "blocking up" the lanes then there is a single passenger in an taxi, which is a concession that should be withdrawn as its arguably a single occupant vehicle

BoatMad

BTW even if 100% of cars were EV's and everyone could afford them, walking, cycling and public transport would still be the priority for inside the M50. Cars make up just 20% of people who enter the city (and dropping), there simply isn't enough space in our ancient, narrow, medieval streets of the city to cope with 20% of people using cars, never mind 100%.

could you point me to the statistic that support your argument, the 2011 census indicates otherwise

"Public transport was more prevalent in Dublin where it was used by 21% of commuters" ( dart, luas and bus)

bk

BoatMad wrote: »

could you point me to the statistic that support your argument, the 2011 census indicates otherwise

"Public transport was more prevalent in Dublin where it was used by 21% of commuters" ( dart, luas and bus)

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/new-survey-shows-importance-of-public-transport-passengers-to-dublin-city-centre-retailers/

Over half (56%) of all retail spend in City Centre comes from people arriving on public transport, a further 24% from walkers/cyclists

The problem with the census is that it includes the whole of Dublin, for instance people driving from one suburb to another, outside the m50. It doesn't really give you a realistic view of how people get into the city center (defined as inside the canals). The above survey gives a more realistic picture of what is happening inside the canals.

Clearly we won't be building any more roads inside the canals. My original point was even if all cars are EV's, you simply wouldn't have the road space inside the canals to accommodate those 80% of public transport users swapping to cars.

Realistically even the suburbs of Dublin and the M50 are pretty much at their maximum capacity and couldn't handle many of those public transporter users switching to EV's.

The one way all of this could change in the future is if we end up moving to a system of small one to two seat self driving EV's. They might free up enough road space to increase the number of people who "drive", instead of public transport. But that is still a long way off.

steelboots

I don't think any one is suggesting we get rid of public transport (i.e. buses, lusas etc..) and get them all driving EVs, but public transport does not work for everyone.

If we could replace a percentage of ICE with EVs then this would have a positive impact on cities. Given the current uptake of EVs this is moving at a very very slow pace. however if for a period of time EVs had free parking, free eletric, free tolls and use the bus lanes then this would make a big difference with the uptake.

Take Norway for example, first quarter of 2015, 20% of car sales were EVs.

Yes of course the more people use the public transport (even if our buses are ICE), walk, cycle the better. But you will never have a car free city in our lifetime, so best to try and improve the cars that drive our city roads.

bk

Oh, I absolutely agree that we will never have a car free society and that we would all greatly benefit from getting as many ICE cars to switch over to EV's as possible.

I was just suggesting that it is actually more important to get as many people as possible out of cars and into buses, trains, bikes and walking, even if those buses and trains happen to be Diesel, then it is to push EV's

And in fact that is exactly what is happening. Dublin City Council and the NTA have big plans to limit cars in the city. Many roads in the city center (College Green, the Quays near O'Connell Street, etc.) are all basically going to become public transport only, thus pushing more and more drivers out of the city and onto buses, bikes, etc.

This needs to happen regardless of EV's as their simply isn't the road space for vehicles in the city center with our quickly growing population and they badly need to push people out of cars and give higher priority to public transport.

So I'm fully in favour of giving incentives to EV's, zero road tax, free parking, no tolls, low and fair ESB eCars charging rates, more chargers, etc. I just draw the line at leaving them use bus lanes.

BTW there is also the issue on how you would police it. How would you know a car using the bus lane was an EV? Would you allow Hybrids like the Auris Hybrid, that looks exactly like it's non EV brother?

Even if you had some sort of sticker system, who would enforce it? Bus lane enforcement is already incredibly poor. And would it encourage other drivers seeing an Auris in the bus lane to chance their arm? I would expect it would.

At the moment bus lane usage is quiet clear and definitive. Only buses and taxis. Any other car in the lane currently sticks out like a sore thumb and their is almost a social pressure not to use them. But if you start mixing EV's in their that largely look no different then any other car, even if they have some small sticker, I think it would lead to lots of other drivers taking a chance and thus having a big knock impact on the 120 people standing on the Dublin Bus coming up behind. So no I'm very much against EV use of bus lanes.

stesaurus

Don't diplomatic plates also get to use bus lanes? If so maybe something on the reg like diploamatic CD plates with heavy fines for anyone trying to abuse

k123456

Hi Folks , can anyone answer this question from poster Steelboots please

Regarding the 32amp charger, excuse my ignorance but what is the advantage ? and on what basis are the ESB refusing ? Would quality of wiring in the house be a factor ? are they running form the fuse box or from the meter box where the electric comes in ? Any advice or reasons I can push the ESB I'm be glad to hear them.

k123456

k123456 wrote: »

Hi Folks , can anyone answer this question from poster Steelboots please

Regarding the 32amp charger, excuse my ignorance but what is the advantage ? and on what basis are the ESB refusing ? Would quality of wiring in the house be a factor ? are they running form the fuse box or from the meter box where the electric comes in ? Any advice or reasons I can push the ESB I'm be glad to hear them.

The advantage of 32 amp charging is quiet apparent when you have it. Most that dismiss it's usefulness are those who haven't got it.

I think one of the most important things of ev ownership is the ability to charge as quickly as possible when you need to , while 16 amps is fine for the majority of people most of the time including me, I really appreciate it when I need it from public charge points while on a longer trip and I plan to install the 32 amp charge point next year.

Charging in half the time is brilliant when you need to and it also means that on a lot of occasions you may not need to find fast chargers or queue, get back to the car and it has enough range to get you home.

Regarding the esb not installing 32 amp charge posts, this has absolutely nothing to do with house wiring and that's all I can say on this publicly.

Villain

Deleted User wrote: »

The advantage of 32 amp charging is quiet apparent when you have it. Most that dismiss it's usefulness are those who haven't got it.

Lovely sweeping statement, if you only intend on charging at home on night rate like many users then the 32amp charger isn't much use, if you plan on using public SCP a lot then it is.

Villain

Villain wrote: »

Lovely sweeping statement, if you only intend on charging at home on night rate like many users then the 32amp charger isn't much use, if you plan on using public SCP a lot then it is.

Whether it's used daily or not isn't what's important, it's the ability to charge as fast as possible when you need to.

There have been several occasions this year I wish I could avail of all 6 kw of power and the reason I intend installing the 32 amp EVSE at home. If I'm not heading the Carlow direction then the Carlow QC is of no use to me and I'd rather charge at home where possible.

Sure enough I don't need to charge at 6 kw while going to work because it's predictable usage. When I'm on my days off it would be highly useful and people that have the 6.6 Kw will find it a lot more useful when he ESB introduce the charges.

Those with the 30 kwh will probably find 32 amp charging even more useful due to the larger battery.

BoatMad

k123456 wrote: »

Hi Folks , can anyone answer this question from poster Steelboots please

Regarding the 32amp charger, excuse my ignorance but what is the advantage ? and on what basis are the ESB refusing ? Would quality of wiring in the house be a factor ? are they running form the fuse box or from the meter box where the electric comes in ? Any advice or reasons I can push the ESB I'm be glad to hear them.

I suspect the Esb are concerned at libability issues if the 32 A evse tripped the fuses or damaged ageing distribution boards.

Despite what mAd-lad says ( or rather doesn't say ) there can't be any other logical explanation. Since 32A evse are completely legal to buy and can be fitted by any RECI electrician. It fact it's not uncommon to have 6-7 kW power showers fitted. ( however two 7 kW devices requires priority switching , which the Esb probably don't want to touch )

At present with single phase charging , domestically , 6-7 kW chargers are about the practical limit while leaving enough power to supply the house , in fa t in certain cases with such loads the limit can be exceeded easily

As to the advantages , bigger chargers = shorter charge times.

Personally given I'm considering spending 25k on an EV and the EVSE is likely to be a long term piece of infrastructure , I'd forgo the free " cheapie" Esb evse and will install my own 30 A unit.

Villain

Deleted User wrote: »

Whether it's used daily or not isn't what's important, it's the ability to charge as fast as possible when you need to.

There have been several occasions this year I wish I could avail of all 6 kw of power and the reason I intend installing the 32 amp EVSE at home. If I'm not heading the Carlow direction then the Carlow QC is of no use to me and I'd rather charge at home where possible.

Sure enough I don't need to charge at 6 kw while going to work because it's predictable usage. When I'm on my days off it would be highly useful and people that have the 6.6 Kw will find it a lot more useful when he ESB introduce the charges.

Those with the 30 kwh will probably find 32 amp charging even more useful due to the larger battery.

Yes highly useful to you and some people doesn't mean it suits everyone and as opposed to what you said many people without the 6.6 charger made that decision based on their own use scenarios and the extra costs involved.

cros13

bk wrote: »

I don't think EV's should be allowed in bus lanes. While I'm a fan of EV's as part of reducing our impact on the environment, increasing public transport is even more important on reaching that goal.

Public Transport simply isn't efficient for a lot of journeys in Dublin. All the bus routes just go to the city center so for a lot of point to point journeys it's simply not practical. It's part of the answer, but the long term answer will be less public transport and 1-4 passenger autonomous vehicles with uber/hailo style hailing.

bk wrote: »

Dublin Bus did previously trial Hybrid buses and natural gas buses, but they didn't work well at all. They simply weren't reliable.

Hybrid buses are more complex than ICE. Electric is simpler and more reliable than ICE.

bk wrote: »

They can't simply buy such battery buses from China as the Chinese companies simply don't produce left hand drive vehicles.

BYD is producing double decker electric buses for Transport London. LHD buses are part of their standard product range (although a more limited selection of models than RHD). BYD's buses have ranges in the region of 400km and rapid charging. The issue is that vs Dublin buses current model the number of seat per bus would need to be reduced 10-20% depending on the model.

They actually have delivered the double deckers in LHD to singapore. Plenty of BYD's buses are in service around the world with no reliability issues that I'm aware of.

It's also worth pointing out BYD have several thousand BYD e6 cars in service as Taxis around the world, including over 100 in london.

bk

cros13 wrote: »

Public Transport simply isn't efficient for a lot of journeys in Dublin. All the bus routes just go to the city center so for a lot of point to point journeys it's simply not practical. It's part of the answer, but the long term answer will be less public transport and 1-4 passenger autonomous vehicles with uber/hailo style hailing.

I agree there are many journeys in the suburbs that can't be regularly taken by public transport [1], however here we are specifically talking about the bus routes into and out of the city and if EV's should be allowed use them or not.

Those bus lanes going into and out of the city carry the vast majority of people who enter the city center every day and there is no way those roads could handle large number of people transfering from bus to 4 seat EV's

I do agree that in the long term we are going to see the rise of 1 - 2 seat self driving EV's that you rent Uber style and that is gonig to have some massive impacts on public transport.

However that is relatively far in the future and we should be allowing 4 seater EV's in bus lanes.

I note that in Norway they found more EV's then buses are now actually using the bus lanes and from this year they are starting to ban the EV's from bus lanes again.

[1] Living in Dublin 15 years without a car and been all over the city, it is certainly possible to get around by public transport. Just not the fastest way for regular journeys. But I will say a lot of people like to make up excuses for their laziness.

cros13 wrote: »

BYD is producing double decker electric buses for Transport London. LHD buses are part of their standard product range (although a more limited selection of models than RHD). BYD's buses have ranges in the region of 400km and rapid charging. The issue is that vs Dublin buses current model the number of seat per bus would need to be reduced 10-20% depending on the model.

They actually have delivered the double deckers in LHD to singapore. Plenty of BYD's buses are in service around the world with no reliability issues that I'm aware of.

It's also worth pointing out BYD have several thousand BYD e6 cars in service as Taxis around the world, including over 100 in london.

Plenty of single decker electric buses are in operation around the world. I see no evidence of Double Deckers operating yet.

I can only find this article from just one month ago, saying that BYD has just delivered the first of 5 Double Deckers to London, to enter service by the end of the year.

Now that is great news, however it is clear that it is still very much early stages for electric Double Deckers, they are clearly just being trialled now and have yet to prove themselves. So you can't really blame DB for not having them yet.

Also as you point out this bus from BYD ends up having significantly less passenger then a DB diesel bus due to the space taken up by the batteries (roughly a quarter of the downstairs seating area). Again that would be a major trade off of passenger capacity. As it is DB is already having major passenger capacity issues due to passenger growth and is buying lots of new buses to try and deal with it.

If people are left behind at bus stops due to full buses, it tends to turn people away from public transport and back to nasty diesel cars. So again you have to balance wanting to go EV, with the potential negative overall impact it might cause.

cros13

bk wrote: »

I note that in Norway they found more EV's then buses are now actually using the bus lanes and from this year they are starting to ban the EV's from bus lanes again.

Yes... but:

1. the norwegians said bus lane access would only be in place until they had 50,000 EVs or 2017 whichever came first.
2. We only have 1,300 EVs for pretty much the same population.
3. Journey times on public transport in Oslo did not measurably increase (and they were tracked) until more than 30,000 EVs were on the road.

bk wrote: »

it is certainly possible to get around by public transport.

The problem is that most people don't work in the city center. The last time I was commuting to get from Dublin 15 where I was living to Kilmainham where I was working took 20-30 minutes by car and over 2 hours by public transport at a similar cost with lower reliability.

The problem is that dublin has a large number of these kind of point to point commutes that mostly can't be met by public transport. Heck, just look at citywest, parkwest et. al. They have the density to support buses but the stops are in awkward locations and the surrounding area could hardly be considered walkable.

bk wrote: »

it is still very much early stages for electric Double Deckers, they are clearly just being trialled now and have yet to prove themselves. So you can't really blame DB for not having them yet.

I don't blame them for not having them yet. I will be taking it up with my local councillors to find out why the tender currently excludes them.

bk wrote: »

Also as you point out this bus from BYD ends up having significantly less passenger then a DB diesel bus due to the space taken up by the batteries (roughly a quarter of the downstairs seating area). Again that would be a major trade off of passenger capacity.

Not denying it's a problem. However the DB fuel and maintenance bill is more of a problem. Medium term, introducing more EVs to the fleet would allow them to increase capacity by increasing fleet utilisation and giving financial savings that could pay for expanding the fleet.

Tabnabs

When you allow electric cars into bus lanes, all motorists win (and buses loose).

bk

cros13 wrote: »

Not denying it's a problem. However the DB fuel and maintenance bill is more of a problem. Medium term, introducing more EVs to the fleet would allow them to increase capacity by increasing fleet utilisation and giving financial savings that could pay for expanding the fleet.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here!

DB doesn't have a maintenance problem, they have an extremely young bus fleet, replacing them every 12 years, very early for buses.

This has massively reduced DB's maintenance costs and vastly improved reliability. You rarely see broken down DB buses any more, while it was a very common sight in the 80's

This has been an important policy by DB/NTA to help vastly improve reliability and increase customer satisfaction with the service.

I wouldn't see EV buses making much difference to this. Yes they certainly could benefit from reduced fuel costs, but then EV buses then to be much more expensive to buy in the first place.

I definitely don't see how replacing diesel buses with the same number of smaller capacity EV buses would increase fleet utilisation!!!!

EV buses won't make the journey any faster. And as I said DB really doesn't have many buses out for maintenance at any one time, so really no advantage there. Also DB's biggest cost is wages, so having to employ more drivers to drive more low capacity buses certainly isn't going to do anything positive for their finances. You are basically asking them to buy a higher number of EV buses, that cost far more to buy per bus and then higher more drivers to drive those buses. It just ain't going to happen.

A more realistic short term goal is to get them to switch over to hybrid buses or CNG buses.

In the long term we have to hope (and I assume it will) that battery tech will allow EV double deckers with the same capacity as existing diesel buses.

bk

BTW if you are interested in buses, there is a great blog here about all the various EV and Hybrid buses that have been trialled in London:

http://beno.org.uk/bus/hybrid/

Reading the blog it is quiet clear that many of the early Hybrids, including the ones trialled by DB were terrible, with massive reliability issues. Really it seems they have finally only started to become good from one manufacturer in 2012 and the other manufacturer just this year!

So you can't really blame DB for being slow to get on this band wagon and I expect the early Double Decker BEV's will have similar issues.

So I'd say Hybrids are now good enough for DB to start buying in large numbers and that they can look at BEV's again in 5 or 6 years time.

Bus Eireann on the other hand should definitely be looking at BEV's for their single decker city fleet, BEV's seem to work well for single deckers and are relatively mature.

BTW One major issue with all of this. Hybrids and BEV's tend to be more expensive to buy up front, while cheaper to run. This is likely to be a major issue in Ireland as it is actually the NTA who buys the buses out of their budget for DB and BE and loans them to DB/BE for their use. DB/BE then pay the operating cost.

So while I'm sure DB/BE would be delighted to reduce their operating costs, I'm not sure the NTA will be happy seeing a big increase in their capital budget. It will likely involve difficult conversations between the NTA and DB/BE about reducing the subsidy payments the NTA make when operating these buses, to balance things more fairly.

Knowing how the Irish government operates, these aren't going to be easy negotiations.

BoatMad

Over half (56%) of all retail spend in City Centre comes from people arriving on public transport, a further 24% from walkers/cyclists

This is a false statement, the survey mentioned , merely confined itself to a poll of 1600 shoppers using two retail streets, its not at all representative of anything but a select sample.

Those bus lanes going into and out of the city carry the vast majority of people who enter the city center every day and there is no way those roads could handle large number of people transfering from bus to 4 seat EV's

20% of commuters travel to work in dublin use the bus.

Bus lanes are a massive waste of road space, in essence reserving a whole lane for a bus , even if its packed that only passes every 10-15 minutes. ( leaving aside one or two very busy bus lanes )

Even more of a PC nonsense is 24 hour bus lanes, i.e. reserving road capacity when NOTHING is using it.

The fact is there are 25 thousand more taxis in Dublin then EVs in the whole of ireland, allowing EVs to access bus lanes for a initial period as the market builds is a useful and forward thinking measure and would help to spur EV take-up, god knows we need a few incentives. It would have a negligible effect in bus lane capacity . If necessary BEV could carry special markings to avoid identity confusion

bk

BoatMad wrote: »

This is a false statement, the survey mentioned , merely confined itself to a poll of 1600 shoppers using two retail streets, its not at all representative of anything but a select sample.

Statistically speaking 1600 people is a very large and perfectly valid sample size.

Most election polling uses similar sample size.

If that one is not good enough for you, then what about the NTA corridor count:

http://www.thebikecomesfirst.com/the-numbers-cycling-into-dublin-sees-a-significant-increase/

If people crossing the canals, 33% are cars, 29% bus, 67% by public transport, walking or cycling.

One thing to note about this report. It is people crossing the canals, it doesn't count the hundreds of thousands of people who live inside the canals. And given where they live I think it is safe to assume that most of those people walk or cycle (Dublin Bikes).

So in reality, the car share is somewhere between 33% and the 19%
of the first report. I'd personally be very surprised if it was more then 25%.

BoatMad wrote: »

Bus lanes are a massive waste of road space, in essence reserving a whole lane for a bus , even if its packed that only passes every 10-15 minutes. ( leaving aside one or two very busy bus lanes )

Actually from the numbers of the NTA corridor counts, we can clearly see that the bus lanes carry almost the same number of passengers into the city as the often two traffic lanes beside them. Or another way to put that the majority of bus lanes in Dublin carry the same to double the number of people as a car lane.

While they might look empty sometimes. People seem to forget that just one bus is carrying as many as 90+ people over two levels in the space of just two cars!

And I don't no where you are getting a bus every 15 minutes!

Right now at the bus stop outside my house, from RTPI I can see there are 18 dublin bus buses scheduled to pass in the next hour (off peak)! And that doesn't count all the BE, Aircoach, and other private operator buses that use it too. There is easily one bus every minute.

I know a lot of idiotic motorists think bus lanes are a waste, but that is simply because they are ignorant of the stats that very clearly back them up.

I know bus lanes can sometimes look a bit empty compared to the car lane you are stuck in, but that is absolutely necessary to ensuring bus based transport is attractive to people.

Think about. A Dublin Bus has to stop constantly in order to pick people up. This makes the journey time longer. But they can then make up for it by whizzing along the bus lane, overtaking cars. Thus Dublin Bus actually achieve faster journey times then car on 12 of their 16 core QBC's.

That is very important to make public transport attractive to people. If you were to get rid of the bus lanes, it would cause journey times to sky rocket, which would make it less attractive which would mean more people in cars, which would have a massive knock on effect on traffic and pollution!

There is no argument at all in transport infrastructure planning circles, all the reports and modelling has clearly shown that bus lanes are a massive net benefit. Which is why Dublin City Council and the NTA are busily expanding the bus lanes and planning to expand the bus gate in the city center.

BoatMad wrote: »

Even more of a PC nonsense is 24 hour bus lanes, i.e. reserving road capacity when NOTHING is using it.

Sigh, you do know that there are many bus services that operate 24 hours now?

All Aircoach services, DB 747, Citylink, GoBus, etc.

BoatMad wrote: »

The fact is there are 25 thousand more taxis in Dublin then EVs in the whole of ireland, allowing EVs to access bus lanes for a initial period as the market builds is a useful and forward thinking measure and would help to spur EV take-up, god knows we need a few incentives. It would have a negligible effect in bus lane capacity . If necessary BEV could carry special markings to avoid identity confusion

You will find that many people in the NTA, DB, etc. also think there are far too many taxis and that they shouldn't be left in bus lanes either. That is why they have banned taxis from contra flow bus lanes and are proposing banning taxis from the new planned bus gate around college green, westmoreland street, quays.

A little sticker wouldn't be good enough for EV's. I would only allow EV's into bus lanes if it was a large sign on the roof, similar to a taxi roof sign. Only ay to ensure people don't abuse bus lanes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% behind anything else you would like to propose to promote EVs:

- 0% VRT
- 0 motor tax
- free car parking
- free tolls
- fairly priced charging
- massive expansion of the charging network
- free home charger
- reduced rate at home electricity for EV owners.

Yup, all great, go for it. But stay out of our bus lanes.

bipedalhumanoid

I see no reason that EVs shouldn't be allowed into selected bus lanes. Bus lanes are already conditional. some allow cars at certain times and some are 24 hour. Not all bus lanes are at risk of congestion or shared by cyclists. The bus lane on the N4, for instance, is barely even used by buses.

The incentives in place right now are not working. What we need are for ICE motorists to visibly see the benefits of electric car driving. When they see charge points constantly ICEd, the (incorrect) message they get is that e-cars are not viable. A negative message. The current benefits, like massive savings on fuel and the convenience of home charging, are not at all visible. A few e-cars passing them in the bus lanes at rush hour would go a long way.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm no hater of Electric Vehicles, but...

Neither of those should ever be given to EV owners. They are still a private vehicle on the road taking up space. Letting them use bus lanes is such a backward notion I could actually see it being considered!

The electrification of transport is an inevitably , especially for Ireland with little heavy industry that can be cleaned up. to meet our commitments thats an inevitably, there is no alternative

Bus lanes access is merely an time limited incentive, it worked in Norway , no reason why it cant work here. Its something that can be turned on and off with the stroke of a pen. If you were serious about decarbonisation of our cities, then remove taxies and petrol bikes from bus lanes and allow EVs ( even two occupancy EVs if you wish )

Its a no-brainer time limited incentive

That aside, I do think the general Joe Soap is a bit unsure of EV due to the whole charging thing. It's never been explained properly to anyone. As someone with a mild interest in them (on a busy day I'd do 500km+, and i'd do this for several days in a row, constantly against the clock, so an EV wouldn't work for me) i've no idea how you go about charging them.

the answer to that is " yet", within two years it will be entirely possible ( and because I presume you sleep , you are not using your car 24/7, plenty of time too recharge both you and it )

If this was explained in the simplest joe soap terms to people, then more people might take interest.

they are taking an increased interest , not fast enough ,but t numbers are growing slowly

But even at that, I'm seeing a few more EV's on the road these days. They were never gonna become the biggest seller overnight. Their sales seem to be slowly but surely increasing, and anyone buying into one knows that these 'freebies' are going to end at some point anyway. As soon as EVs become anyway popular they'll be taxed at a marginal rate anyway (and year on year this will increase, like everything else, until you're just back where you started).

the big advantage of EVs is that electricity can be generated in many ways, and by amateurs to boot, Solar for example , and unless you believe the state can tax sunlight , costs of electricity generation to power cars will always be less and less outside the state control.

with hydrocarbon fuels, the state has a lock on the supply and hence the taxation.

with EVs, its more likely the state will recover costs in different ways , for example road pricing, which its arguably a fairer way anyway.
equally costs of ICE driving will rocket as the de-carbonisation agenda grows and grows and it inevitably has too for a country like Ireland, with little heavy industry to clean up.

The only people who'll really benefit are those that are driving them now (ie; the 'early birds', but a lot of people are happy to let ye guys try them out, so 'someone else can have the horror stories').

very few horror stories, mostly a very happy community that are smirking to themselves, that they discovered something the luddites have missed

I don't think many people want to be the first ones to jump into what's still considered relatively unknown. Everyone understands how petrol and diesel work and until the workings of EVs becomes more 'common knowledge' and people can see more charge points, etc. (at the moment, there's still a fear of running out of power in the ass end of nowhere and being stuck) they'll start to look a bit more reliable, I reckon, and that's when they'll come into their own a bit more.

1200 charge points excluding passing the cable out of your granny bedroom, 2000 EV vehicles, in reality charge points are only a " here and now " issue. with larger batteries , in the next two years, the reliance on public charging will decrease , Ireland is unique in Europe, that we can only drive a few short miles and we fall into the sea.

... But that's just my rambling viewpoint!

a rather narrow one though

This level aside the fact that electric cars performance wise blows the doors of ICE cars, if you are a " car nut" , then electric will be where its at.

josip

BoatMad wrote: »

very few horror stories, mostly a very happy community that are smirking to themselves, that they discovered something the luddites have missed

Some of that community have been discovering something else recently
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057660283

BoatMad wrote: »

1200 charge points excluding passing the cable out of your granny bedroom, 2000 EV vehicles, in reality charge points are only a " here and now " issue. with larger batteries , in the next two years, the reliance on public charging will decrease , Ireland is unique in Europe, that we can only drive a few short miles and we fall into the sea.

A significant percentage of those charge points are out of action and seems to be an ongoing complaint of many EVers?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057658019

BoatMad

josip wrote: »

Some of that community have been discovering something else recently
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057660283

have you seen the state of the nearly new ICE market , the dealers lots are groaning with unsold nearly new cars, cant give them away ( cause PCPs have killed them )
Dealers are sitting on a time bomb at the moment and sterling is devaluing their stock every day . The industry expects several dealer failures

A significant percentage of those charge points are out of action and seems to be an ongoing complaint of many EVers?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057658019

time and place, thing, was with the esb recently, massive internal attempts are being made to bring the reliability up, including a huge visit from the manufactures this week to vist all effaced chargers ( they had a fire in the factory that screwed over ESBs ability to get spares and support )

the CER review needs to finish and let the esb know where it stands, the ESB board, will not expand an asset it may not own in the future . That needs to be resolved and shouldn't have taken 12 months to do so.

about 8% of the fast chargers are non functional at present, with these efforts I expect that to be reduced in the coming weeks, on others minor changes like new lighter simpler Chademo connectors ( the blue ones ) will improve mechanical reliability , which has dogged some makes and installations

BoatMad

bk wrote: »

Simply not true, 80% of people who enter Dublin city center every day do so by walking, cycling or public transport. A mere 20% do so by car and that includes many many people who own cars but opt to leave them at home when they go to work every day.

We are already well beyond the point of getting people out of cars.

I'm a big fan of rail based transport, but the reality is Dublin Bus is actually the number 1 means of transport in Dublin, it carries twice as many people daily as DART and Luas. And while I certainly hope Metro North and DART Underground are built soon, DB will still be vitally important to moving people around Dublin in an environmentally friendly way.

While things are slow to change, they definitely are changing and the NTA and Dublin City Council have major plans for closing many of the city center streets to general cars.

They have major plans for College Green, Westmoreland Street, O'Connell Bridge and the quays to either side of it to ban cars from these streets and make them cycling and public transport only.

While there will be road building outside the M50, there are no plans at all for any new roads inside the M50, in fact quiet the opposite, all the plans are for reducing the amount of cars and road space for them, while increasing space for buses, cyclists and pedestrians.

Im not sure what you are using for statistics, but Im reading the 2015 Cordon Study


if we contain ourselves to comparing road based public transport in 2015


57K people by BUS
65K by CAR
18K by walking ( which to some extent cannot be compared to road vehicles, since walkers as a rule do not consume or compete with road vehicles for space and hence I have not included them in comparisons)
10K by cycling
2K by Taxis

so comparing road space , we have 67K in a a form of car based transport and 67K in buses and bikes.

That is 50% , not 20%.

We are already well beyond the point of getting people out of cars.

WRONG - at 50% that conclusion cannot be supported by any data

bus usage is up just 1% which suggest that in a rising economy its not seen as very attractive

and clearly taxis are irrelevant and should be removed from bus lanes.


Note that the cordon are based on 0700am to 10am ONLY, This tends to directly improve public transport numbers over cars as busses are often greatly under-utilised in off peak times

what would be interesting to see is what is the preferred mode of transport where people have leisure time , i.e. saturday , I suspect the car features far heavier in proportion

but the reality is Dublin Bus is actually the number 1 means of transport in Dublin, it carries twice as many people daily as DART and Luas

WRONG
in 2015 LUAS and DART/Urban Heavy Rail combined carried 12K and 29K people making 41K

BUS carried as I said 57K, not 2-1 more like 1.4 to 1, but a long way from 2-1

also if interest is that as the economy improved LUAS and Rail has increased by more percentage wise then DB, which only grew by 1%, which suggests its passengers are using it under sufferance and where the option exists , will use rail ( the logic here is that an improving economy would see all PT forms increase by approx the same if there was not preference amongst the user base , thats clearly not the case )

( DB rose from 54K in 2011, to 57K in 2015,( 10%) Rail ex-LUAS, rose 23K to 29 K(12.6%) in the same period , DB was flat in 2013 and 2014 at 56K, as was rail, LUAS has shown year on year increases )

interesting as the economy seriously improved in 2014-2015 , Bus increased by just 1%, while Heavy Rail ( approx 2%) and LUAS ( 1%), suggesting combined rail usage his more popular then bus

CAR USAGE GROWTH ( NB GROWTH ) in the same period was also 1% , which suggests that users are not getting out of their cars and using buses in particular
( car usage has declined over the previous years but 2015 showed a return to growth )
WALKING decreased by 5% suggesting those now employed have more money to spend and some bought cars !!!
CYCLING increased by 1% , suggesting that the boom in cycling is levelling off as the previous figures were increases from a low base and cycling is the 2nd LEAST used form of commuter transport after taxis. ( which are showing no increases and negligible numbers by comparison )


Arguably the extension of the LUAS and in time metro north will further cause DBs figures to get worse as an overall percentage.

Hence your conclusion

but the reality is Dublin Bus is actually the number 1 means of transport in Dublin.....DB will still be vitally important to moving people around Dublin in an environmentally friendly way.

is not a sustainable argument,

Clearly on the basis of statistics and not politics , all further PT investment should be in rail , especially electric Heavy commuter rail, as that is the users clear ( 2-1) preference based on usage , and cars remain a very important party of commuting life and must be accommodated . Busses cannot be in the medium term converted to zero emissions , at the point of use , , wheres today electric trains are zero emission at the point of use

terrible things , facts , arnt they , most inconvenient


source:http://www.cycledublin.ie/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/2015-Cordon-Count-Report.pdf

bk

BoatMad, the problem with the canal count, is that it only counts the people who cross the canal. It doesn't count more then a hundred thousand people who live inside the canals! People who for the most part are unlikely to have a car and are most likely to travel around inside the canals via walking, cycling and bus.

A more realistic view on how the roads inside the canals are being used is given by the surveys of shoppers in town and how they get there. Which finds that only about 20% get their by car. The other 80% get their by walking, cycling and public transport:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/public-transport-users-and-walkers-spend-most-in-dublin-shops-1.2107019

I base more numbers on this survey and I logically believe it to be a fundamentally more realistic view on the usage of space inside the canals.

Also BTW, even going just purely by the canal count, it shows that cars only make up 33% of the people crossing the canal. The other 77% cross the canal by walking, cycling, bus and train/luas.

And again, I repeat this completely ignores the people who live inside the canals!!!!!

Really BoatMad, please stop and really think about these figures. Just 64k people come into the city by car each day. That is nothing. The population of Dublin City between the canals is 116,000 alone. Then another 136,000 enter the city by walking, cycling, bus and train. So you are looking at 250,000 people who are getting around inside the canals by walking, cycling, bus and tram, versus just 65,000 by car. That is just 20%, which interestingly almost exactly matches the results of the shopper surveys.

WRONG
in 2015 LUAS and DART/Urban Heavy Rail combined carried 12K and 29K people making 41K

Err, 41k is still less then 54K, which means I'm totally correct and Dublin Bus is still the number 1 mode of public transport in Dublin.

Looking outside your myopic view on the canal counts, the overall, city wide carriage figures look like this:

- Dublin Bus: 334,246
- Luas: 94,794
- DART: 43,835

So in fact, Dublin Bus carries 2.4 times the number of passengers as DART and Luas combined. Fully supporting my argument that Dublin Bus is by far the number 1 mode of Public transport in Dublin and is the core of public transport in Dublin.

Yes, facts are inconvenient, aren't they BoatMad!

And this is all completely ignoring the large numbers of passengers that Bus Eireann, Aircoach, Swords Express and the many other private bus companies carry on these same bus lanes every day.

Busses cannot be in the medium term converted to zero emissions , at the point of use , , wheres today electric trains are zero emission at the point of use

Of course they can, what a weird thing for a supposed EV advocate to say! Thousands of fully Electric buses run all over the world every day! In London they already have 1,700 hybrid buses and over hundred fully electric or hydrogen buses with plans for hundreds more over the next 3 years alone. They even have fully electric Double Deckers from BYD on trial at the moment.

Don't get me wrong, I'm also a big fan of electric trains. But I'm also realistic about the frighteningly high cost of electrifying old train tracks (see HS2 in the UK) and the massive cost of underground rail in core city centers and the importance of having buses, bikes and good walking infrastructure that bridge the last mile that rail usually fails to cover.

You could replace the entire Dublin Bus fleet with fully electric buses for roughly the cost of a single new Luas line, never mind the cost of Metro North and DART underground.

You also fail to mention the very real reality that Dublin City center simply can't cope with the current volume of cars and the growing population of the city. Many people who walk, cycle, take the bus and train to work in the city, do so while leaving their car at home. Could you imagine the chaos if all of them decided to switch back to their cars! The reality is Dublin City center is a medieval city, with medieval streets and there simply is no road space to fit lots of cars and their simply isn't any space to deal with the growing population.

That is why there isn't a single plan for more roads inside the M50 and every single ongoing and future infrastructure plan involves re-organising the existing road space to give less space to cars and more space to walking, cycling, buses and trams.

Just think about it, here are all the ongoing and planned infrastructure plans for the city:

- Luas Cross city (removes lots of car road space from the city center, already has).
- Future planned luas lines, e.g. to Lucan, may not all happen, but those that do, will all remove road space.
- BRT plans, each route plan involves reducing car road space and giving more space to the buses, along with more space for cycling and walking.
- Plan for a public transport and cycling route along the quays. Currently in the works with ABP, massively reduces car road space along the quays.
- College Green Plaza plan, currently in the works, basically bans cars from College Green, Westmorland Street, basically turning them into an area exclusively for pedestrians, cyclists, buses and trams.

Meanwhile I can't think of a single plan for extra road space in the city.

The NTA and DCC planners are in complete agreement with me and the entire city is currently going to be massively re-organised to give much greater priority to walking, cycling, buses and trams.

And how could they do any different? There simply is no way to fit more cars on our city streets and I've yet to hear a single realistic plan from any car enthusiast on how to continue growing the cities population without giving more space to public transport, etc.

BoatMad wrote:

terrible things , facts , arnt they , most inconvenient

Yes, facts are great, I love them and I 100% stand by my facts.

You are the one who is trying to cherry pick facts and twist them to try and bolster your frankly weird agenda.

bipedalhumanoid

Public Education
I think the points being made regarding education of the public are valid. I get a lot of questions from people who are interested enough to bug a stranger on the street, but the questions reveal that they don't have a clue how these cars work.

People assume that, for instance, the range would be reduced if we were stuck in traffic. In reality, electric motors do not use power when not moving and, with few exceptions, anything that slows you down extends your range.

Because petrol cars have to make special trips to fueling stations and that's what people are used to, they think in terms of having to drive an EV to a charge point and wait for it to charge. There are people who honestly believe that I drive my car to a car park somewhere and wait there for hours while the car charges. They seem unaware of home charging that occurs while you're sleeping, destination charging that occurs while you're working, shopping, or at the cinema etc. and fast chargers that can get you to from 0 to 80% in 30 minutes.

The third thing is that, despite Elon Musk's efforts, a lot of people still expect electric cars to be slower than petrol cars. Instant maximum torque. Even the Nissan Leaf can manage 0-100kph in 10 seconds. The i3 does it in 7 seconds, the Model 3 does it in 6 seconds and the Model S can now do it in 2.7 seconds. These cars are not slow.

Financial Benefits
This varies from person to person, but with my 80km daily commute, my LEAF will pay for itself completely after 7 years of ownership. I could not care less if there is zero residual value in the car at the end of its life. Any remaining value is a bonus.

The "freebies" we get are not as valuable as you think. It costs very little to charge an electric car. The occasional free charge I get from the public infrastructure saves me a maximum of €1.70 when I bother with it. I save about €400/year on motor tax compared to my previous car. Big deal. The real saving comes from switching from petrol to electricity, even when I am paying for the electricity. I used to pay €350/month for petrol and now I pay €50/month for electricity. Taking away my e-car "freebies" will barely put a dent in that.

The grant and tax reductions you get on the purchase just bring the cost of the car down to something on par with petrol/diesel cars. I don't see this as a benefit to me and by the time those incentives are removed the cost of the technology will have fallen anyway.

Charging Infrastructure
Two categories of EV driver are affected by the charging infrastructure. The few of us who can't charge at home and the few of us who do long distance drives and need to charge en route. Most EV drivers only use the charging infrastructure for a free top up while they're doing something else (like shopping). We don't care that much if we show up and can't charge.

I can't say I've ever found myself in a situation where I've needed a tow truck, but if I was, I can get one anywhere on this Island for free.

The long distance travel I have done is very relaxing. Charge stops force you to break up the trip. It's a zen-like experience driving the quietest cars on the road and stopping for a coffee every 80-150kms.

josip

bipedalhumanoid wrote: »

Public Education
...

The third thing is that, despite Elon Musk's efforts, a lot of people still expect electric cars to be slower than petrol cars. Instant maximum torque. Even the Nissan Leaf can manage 0-100kph in 10 seconds. The i3 does it in 7 seconds, the Model 3 does it in 6 seconds and the Model S can now do it in 2.7 seconds. These cars are not slow.
...
.

I thought the Leaf did it in 11.5?
http://www.nissan.ie/vehicle/leaf/grades-and-engines

How much does an i3 cost and how does its performance compare to similarly priced ICEs?

Tesla S isn't available in Ireland and its price means that it's outside the realm of reality for most people.

Re the Model 3, I find Elon entertaining and positive, but his timeframes have more to do with marketing than reality, so the Model 3 shouldn't be considered until it's in production and being delivered to customers.

bipedalhumanoid

josip wrote: »

I thought the Leaf did it in 11.5?
http://www.nissan.ie/vehicle/leaf/grades-and-engines

How much does an i3 cost and how does its performance compare to similarly priced ICEs?

Tesla S isn't available in Ireland and its price means that it's outside the realm of reality for most people.

Re the Model 3, I find Elon entertaining and positive, but his timeframes have more to do with marketing than reality, so the Model 3 shouldn't be considered until it's in production and being delivered to customers.

I've clocked my 152 leaf at 10 seconds. Probably depends on conditions. In any case, it is unmistakably quick off the mark. I've yet to meet an ICE at a set of traffic lights that I couldn't pass from a stand-still. Even ICEs that can do better at 0-100, probably wouldn't do better at 0-60. You just can't get instant maximum torque in an ICE no matter how good it is.

Though I have had the problem of ICE drivers getting very upset at the prospect of being outperformed by a Nissan Leaf. It can inspire erratic driving in the poor souls.

The i3 is €34500. Not hugely expensive.

The Model S is available in Ireland. Tesla even came out here during the summer recently offering test drives and they'll be opening showrooms in Dublin and Belfast next year. You can order them online and I've come across several at charge points. Amazing cars and a demonstration of things to come.

Post Edit:

The link you gave for the Leaf performance is definitely out of date. My 152 leaf has a top speed (artificially capped) of 160km/h. That page says it's 144km/h.

Padraig Mor

bipedalhumanoid wrote: »

I've clocked my 152 leaf at 10 seconds. Probably depends on conditions. In any case, it is unmistakably quick off the mark. I've yet to meet an ICE at a set of traffic lights that I couldn't pass from a stand-still. Even ICEs that can do better at 0-100, probably wouldn't do better at 0-60. You just can't get instant maximum torque in an ICE no matter how good it is.

Though I have had the problem of ICE drivers getting very upset at the prospect of being outperformed by a Nissan Leaf. It can inspire erratic driving in the poor souls.

The i3 is €34500. Not hugely expensive.

The Model S is available in Ireland. Tesla even came out here during the summer recently offering test drives and they'll be opening showrooms in Dublin and Belfast next year. You can order them online and I've come across several at charge points. Amazing cars and a demonstration of things to come.

Post Edit:

The link you gave for the Leaf performance is definitely out of date. My 152 leaf has a top speed (artificially capped) of 160km/h. That page says it's 144km/h.

Leaf current 1.5 Gen is 9.5 seconds 0 - 100km/h I believe; original was 9 seconds - I think they've held initial acceleration back a tad in later cars as too may people were spinning their wheels! 'Officially' the acceleration is 11.5 seconds; not sure why they claim it's tardier than it is! Leaf max actual speed is 144 km/h, but its speedo overreads by (a massive) 10%, hence the 160 figure.

bipedalhumanoid

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Leaf max actual speed is 144 km/h, but its speedo overreads by (a massive) 10%, hence the 160 figure.

That means I was only clocking 0-90km/h, so 11.5 seconds probably isn't all that far from the truth.

KCross

bipedalhumanoid wrote: »

That means I was only clocking 0-90km/h, so 11.5 seconds probably isn't all that far from the truth.

The over-read isnt linear.

You can use LeafSpy or just use a SatNav to show your true speed to figure out what the correct reading for 100km/h is and then time to that value.

It will be close to 11secs.

josip

Padraig Mor wrote: »

... its speedo overreads by (a massive) 10%, hence the 160 figure.

Is that why Leaf's go slowly (c. 100kph) on the motorway even after they've zipped off from the lights?
They think they're doing 110-120?

KCross

josip wrote: »

Is that why Leaf's go slowly (c. 100kph) on the motorway?
They think they're doing 110-120?

I cant remember exactly what you need to do to hit 100kmh but I do know that 128kmh is actually 120kmh so I always set my cruise or speed limiter to 130kmh when im on a motorway.

Every car speedo over reads, just that the Leaf over-reads by more than most.

bipedalhumanoid

josip wrote: »

Is that why Leaf's go slowly (c. 100kph) on the motorway?
They think they're doing 110-120?

The only time I've ever driven slow on a motorway has been to extend range during a long drive. In an EV, driving slower can get you to your destination quicker than driving fast if it means skipping a charge stop.

Then of course there is the fact that your sample is hugely biased. Think about it. How are you going to see the leafs that are driving at the same speed as you or faster? Almost all of the cars you see will be the ones you pass.

colm_mcm

bipedalhumanoid wrote: »

The only time I've ever driven slow on a motorway has been to extend range during a long drive. In an EV, driving slower can get you to your destination quicker than driving fast if it means skipping a charge stop.

Then of course there is the fact that your sample is hugely biased. Think about it. How are you going to see the leafs that are driving at the same speed as you or faster? Almost all of the cars you see will be the ones you pass.

I've never been overtaken by a leaf!