So, nobody ever talks about men's body depiction in media...

H3llR4iser

...more specifically, I'm referring to fantasy/art media (e.g. cartoons, comics, videogames) rather than movies, as I'm talking mainly physical appearance.

Surfing around I found out about the game "Dragon's Crown" and the whole controversy surrounding its art style - a couple of the playable characters are depicted with impossibly enormous breasts and/or humongous backsides. I took a look at footage from the game - personally don't like the art style as everybody looks, essentially, affected by some bad case of deformity.
Which applies to the men as well - shoulders as wide as an airport runway paired with tiny hips and heads smaller than their hands, plus muscle groups I am quite sure can't be found on an human body.

Yet, the controversy was only about the women - about their wrong proportions, about sending wrong messages and whatnot. Nobody takes a look at the guys and goes "hey, the lads are quite wrong as well, you know".

The very same applies to other games, plus other forms of drawn/modeled media: comics, both in the DC and Marvel flavours, are often harshly criticized about the heroines "unrealistic" looks, while not a word is ever spent about the fact their male counterparts are at least as unrealistic.

So, in order for somebody to raise the question, do we need to wait for somebody to draw/model a character with a nightmarish "bulge" in the crotch area? Or would even that be overlooked, everyone too busy being offended by a pair of boobs?

TheKevin

Very interesting observation. There's no popular discussion on how these portrayals of masculinity project pressure on men. I've seen many articles on the standards of femininity impressed upon children via Disney cartoons, but have never seen a discussion of the same with respect to standards of masculinity. Forget Gaston, even Aladdin has more defined pecs than most men.

titan18

Aye, point out the fat superheroes or video game characters. Or even the not athletic freak ones.

You tend to have a few joke characters, and a handful of exceptions.

trixychic

This is a pet peeve of mine... and I'm a woman. Personally in some areas the whole "woman power" thing has gone too far.

They shout about equal rights and the stuff but then there's that insurance for woman....

If men had insurance only for men there would be uproar. But nothing is said about female only one.

Woman want equals standards from men yet still expect them to be the "gentleman" on dates and pull out chairs or hold open doors.

They protest all the time about the body images of woman in newspapers or magazines but nothing is said about the male shots.

It's all gone hay wire if you ask me. I know dam well men and woman are different. We've got tits and can carry children. Yous have dicks and can.... carry other stuff. I still want to be respected as a human being and be counted and valued but I would much rather have a gentleman to treat me then complain about equal rights....

Sorry and rant over!!!!


Edited for a ton of errors. Anger makes mistakes. Ha

One eyed Jack

H3llR4iser wrote: »

...more specifically, I'm referring to fantasy/art media (e.g. cartoons, comics, videogames) rather than movies, as I'm talking mainly physical appearance.

Surfing around I found out about the game "Dragon's Crown" and the whole controversy surrounding its art style - a couple of the playable characters are depicted with impossibly enormous breasts and/or humongous backsides. I took a look at footage from the game - personally don't like the art style as everybody looks, essentially, affected by some bad case of deformity.
Which applies to the men as well - shoulders as wide as an airport runway paired with tiny hips and heads smaller than their hands, plus muscle groups I am quite sure can't be found on an human body.

Yet, the controversy was only about the women - about their wrong proportions, about sending wrong messages and whatnot. Nobody takes a look at the guys and goes "hey, the lads are quite wrong as well, you know".

The very same applies to other games, plus other forms of drawn/modeled media: comics, both in the DC and Marvel flavours, are often harshly criticized about the heroines "unrealistic" looks, while not a word is ever spent about the fact their male counterparts are at least as unrealistic.

So, in order for somebody to raise the question, do we need to wait for somebody to draw/model a character with a nightmarish "bulge" in the crotch area? Or would even that be overlooked, everyone too busy being offended by a pair of boobs?

I don't understand why anyone didn't point out the sweeping generalisations in your post already. The problem with even your own post as I read it is that I'm confused as to whether your issue is with the depictions of men in these fantasy media, or is your issue with the people who are offended by the depictions of women in these fantasy media?

If your issue is with the depictions of men, then I'm sure you can understand where the people who object to the depictions of women are coming from.

If your issue is with the people who are offended by the depictions of women, then you really haven't given yourself a leg to stand on if you're claiming that the depictions of men are offensive.

Me personally, I'm not too bothered by the depictions of either gender. I think it's nothing more than a case of looking for things to be offended by, and here's the newest gender war nonsense we could come up with.


I'd better go hide my collection of Sláine graphic novels. It's not the blood nor gore that bothers some people, no, it'll be the lack of realism in the character depictions of a fantasy graphic novel...

Right.

H3llR4iser

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don't understand why anyone didn't point out the sweeping generalisations in your post already. The problem with even your own post as I read it is that I'm confused as to whether your issue is with the depictions of men in these fantasy media, or is your issue with the people who are offended by the depictions of women in these fantasy media?

"Sweeping generalization"? Way off road. I have no issue with either representation - it's fantasy work. I have an issue with the fact the female one being "unrealistic" gets pointed out all the time, and the male gets ignored.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If your issue is with the depictions of men, then I'm sure you can understand where the people who object to the depictions of women are coming from.

If your issue is with the people who are offended by the depictions of women, then you really haven't given yourself a leg to stand on if you're claiming that the depictions of men are offensive.

Quite clearly, I have no problems with either. Only with the resonance it gets.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'd better go hide my collection of Sláine graphic novels. It's not the blood nor gore that bothers some people, no, it'll be the lack of realism in the character depictions of a fantasy graphic novel...

Right.

Exactly. Besides, I don't really mind the blood and gore either, but that's another story.

Mackman

This bothers me sometimes too, but not too much. I think it's because I have a certain confidence about my appearance, and as a man my appearance is not judged as harshly as it is for women.

From a young age women are told how to dress, put on make up, do their hair, how to walk, sit, stand, and all these things are judged by society. Just look at Xpose or ET, people judge these celebrities like this. So it stands to reason young girls think everyone is judging them like that too. So for women it is a much bigger issue IMO.

When I see a picture of a guy that looks like he's carved out of stone, I fell a little bad about the extra 7-8kg I'm lugging around, do some sit ups then I forget about it. I'm not bombarded with messages saying I have to look like that

Manach

The depiction of male characters in other media tends to the idealised. This is a historical trend, based on say the images of homeric heroes in the Greek epics. That this continues is part of wish of the reader to be greater, better, more whole when stepping in the imaged world. Of course it might be that the Beowulf types might just enjoy playing Sim-train, just to get a break from the norm.

freenow

I have seen a number of articles on the pressure men face around body image. It's not just a female centric arena any more. I can't post links but if you just google "men negative body image" there are some decent articles.

Then you have Vin Deisel being body shamed publicly for daring to appear on a hotel balcony with a tummy instead of ripped abs.

I have 2 sons and we talk about unrealistic ideals in the media often and we try to avoid mainstream media as much as possible because it's mostly toxic. I think we are all adversely affected by the way men and woman are portrayed in our culture.

smash

Should we create a "This is what a real man looks like" meme and have a photo of someone in their mid 30's with a beer gut, overgrown body hair and receding hairline?

RTE Reality Bites did a show last week called 'the gun show'. It was about the recent male obsession with the gym and trying to look buff. A psychotherapist said it goes back to the 90s when aids was rampant and Calvin Klein were heavily advertising. The perception was that skinny=sick and buff=perfection. Not sure I believe that, in fact I do not believe that... in my opinion it's just the alpha male thing about needing to be the biggest and best in the crowd. But to take that comment further, it's a prehistoric mindset because we are no longer hunters and gatherers and in this age we are more measured on our success in terms of material possessions.

For everything mentioned in the OP regarding female body image, it's unrealistic for most, but not unachievable. Just look at a recent photo of Jenna Jameson. Huge boobs and ass, all manufactured. For a male character to have a massive package, it's unrealistic for most and unachievable for them too unless you want to cause serious damage and render the appendage useless.

Even after all that, I'm not sure a video game of comic character with a gigantic penis would bother too many people or push them into making a complaint because if you complain or point out that it's big then 'you must be small'. Examples of this bickering can be recently witnessed on twitter during the Justin Beiber nude image release. Grown men and women literally arguing about weather his dick was big or small. And then there's the women who wrote articles about weather he was a grower or a shower.

Either way... I'm just going to sit here, enjoy my coffee and bagel and research specs of cars I can't afford because I don't really care to get offended about the proportions of fictional characters be them male or female. It's not like Jonah Falcon has recently been positioned as a public spokesperson for the average penis brigade.... That, I'd take issue with.

BrianD3

Maybe it's because I'm not into comics/art/fantasy but the specific issue raised in the OP doesn't bother me. If there are women getting annoyed because some wildly exaggerated cartoon character has a hip to waist ratio that no human can have, I would regard that as silly rather than wondering why someone hasn't gotten annoyed about equally unrealistic male cartoon character.

Now having said that, the general topic of male body portrayal in the media is a good one. However I'm talking about actual male bodies - maybe achieved with the help of steroids. Bodies of fitness models, actors and professional athletes etc.

I'm in my late thirties and have been lifting weights for over 12 years, I'm 5'9 and only about 12 stone but am lean with a six pack and an obvious V taper. My focus has been more on strength than size over the years but even so, had I focused on size I wouldn't be much bigger as I'm a natural ectomorph.

Now during the Rugby World Cup I heard comments from women oohing and aaahing about various players being so TALL and BIG and saying some pretty graphic things about what they'd like to do to them and implying that they probably have huge penises as well. I can easily see why men could feel bad hearing that.

I remember previously hearing women saying that Ronan O'Gara was "too short and skinny" and that O'Connell and O'Callaghan were "hunks". Not that O'Gara gives a crap but when you hear stuff like that about an international fly half who is around 6 foot tall and 13 stone and you know that you are shorter and skinnier than that, it's a recipe for insecurity.

With social media, facebook, instagram, niteclub "culture" and the glorification of professional sportspeople and celebrities generally, I think there is more pressure than ever on young lads to be big and lean, to hit the gym hard and to take steroids. IMO there are far more built young lads around than there were when I was 18. Thinking back to how insecure I was when I was 18, if I was that age now I'd say there's a good chance that I would be taking steroids.

One eyed Jack

H3llR4iser wrote: »

"Sweeping generalization"? Way off road. I have no issue with either representation - it's fantasy work. I have an issue with the fact the female one being "unrealistic" gets pointed out all the time, and the male gets ignored.

It was the "nobody looks at the men and says this is wrong... everyone gets offended by a pair of boobs" generalisation I was referring to. Clearly some people are bothered by the unrealistic representations of men (He-man has been thrown out there for donkeys years), and no, not everyone is offended by the unrealistic representations of women either, just a handful of people with a whole lot of time on their hands.

Quite clearly, I have no problems with either. Only with the resonance it gets.

I understand what you mean, but I'm questioning myself and thinking - "Do we really need to go there?". I understand that we can of course care about male suicide at the same time as we care about unrealistic depictions of men in the media, but I'm just wondering, "Should we actually really care about who has the bigger 'codpiece' (jesus wept) between Chris O' Donnell and George Clooney in the Batman film a few years back?". Should we actually be entertaining that nonsense?

Because a handful of people get their knickers in a twist about unrealistic depictions of women, we should equally be getting our knickers in a twist about unrealistic depictions of men? Come on now, must we really be so pathetic? What I'm saying is - we should be perfectly capable of ignoring people who as you say are trying to make an issue of being offended by women's breasts, because they're being silly. I would think the same of anyone who had an issue with men's 'codpieces', or their unrealistic depictions or whatever.

We shouldn't be teaching people of either gender that sort of insecurity is acceptable, and we certainly shouldn't be entertaining them and suggesting that men should be equally offended, or that we should be offended by people being silly. We should see it for what it is, and most people do - utter nonsense.

Exactly. Besides, I don't really mind the blood and gore either, but that's another story.

I won't be hiding my Sláine comics, nor will I be turming off the "bouncing breasts" setting in Dead or Alive, nor will I be reducing my consumption of pornography because of the unrealistic representations of either women, or men, or sex, or anything else. I'll simply be ignoring anyone who tries to impress their insecurities upon society. Because that is the best way to deal with such people - ignore them, and eventually they realise how silly they're being (well, that's the theory anyway!).

smash

BrianD3 wrote: »

IMO there are far more built young lads around than there were when I was 18. Thinking back to how insecure I was when I was 18, if I was that age now I'd say there's a good chance that I would be taking steroids.

In my 30's now and I have 17yr old cousins who were a lot bulkier and stronger two years ago than I've ever been, even at my fittest. All encouraged by their coaches in school who will give them rigorous weight training schedules and diets topped off with protein shakes and supplements.

Gaygooner

Young men seem to into "bulking up" and drinking protein shakes etc now far more than when I was younger

fits

Every single shop here in finland has an aisle dedicated to protein powders and supplements and goodness knows what else. And I always see young men buying them along with quark and other high protein dairy products. I really find it quite strange and unnecessary.

Sleepy

How much of that bulking has to do with the emergence of "bosh" Rugby?

Wanderer78

thankfully i pretty much ignore media and advertising so my body's perfect! shame on the marketing sector for making people feel otherwise

Gaygooner

If Apple did iProtien maybe 😉

H3llR4iser

smash wrote: »

Should we create a "This is what a real man looks like" meme and have a photo of someone in their mid 30's with a beer gut, overgrown body hair and receding hairline?

By the Pah-Wraiths, please no

smash wrote: »

For everything mentioned in the OP regarding female body image, it's unrealistic for most, but not unachievable. Just look at a recent photo of Jenna Jameson. Huge boobs and ass, all manufactured. For a male character to have a massive package, it's unrealistic for most and unachievable for them too unless you want to cause serious damage and render the appendage useless.

This is a very interesting concept. If you go to any gym, you will find at least a few women who train quite hard and have outstanding physiques - wide shoulders, toned chest, small waist and round hips. Those ladies are normal people like you, me and everyone else here and yet - within the limitations of reality, biology and physics - their appearance is not too far off what you see, say, Catwoman, Black Canary or Huntress depicted as.

The men, however...how many Wolverine, Thor or Barman-like bodies you see on non-steroid infused dudes? In many years, I yet have to see one.

Note, my point is not about the representation itself - I couldn't care less. It's about the double standard...

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It was the "nobody looks at the men and says this is wrong... everyone gets offended by a pair of boobs" generalisation I was referring to. Clearly some people are bothered by the unrealistic representations of men (He-man has been thrown out there for donkeys years), and no, not everyone is offended by the unrealistic representations of women either, just a handful of people with a whole lot of time on their hands.

I meant that as an hyperbole to define what the situation looks like at large. I am also afraid it's not just a handful of people - the cries for "unrealistic representation of women" have actually influenced artwork in relatively recent times.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I understand what you mean, but I'm questioning myself and thinking - "Do we really need to go there?". I understand that we can of course care about male suicide at the same time as we care about unrealistic depictions of men in the media, but I'm just wondering, "Should we actually really care about who has the bigger 'codpiece' (jesus wept) between Chris O' Donnell and George Clooney in the Batman film a few years back?". Should we actually be entertaining that nonsense?

Because a handful of people get their knickers in a twist about unrealistic depictions of women, we should equally be getting our knickers in a twist about unrealistic depictions of men? Come on now, must we really be so pathetic? What I'm saying is - we should be perfectly capable of ignoring people who as you say are trying to make an issue of being offended by women's breasts, because they're being silly. I would think the same of anyone who had an issue with men's 'codpieces', or their unrealistic depictions or whatever.

We shouldn't be teaching people of either gender that sort of insecurity is acceptable, and we certainly shouldn't be entertaining them and suggesting that men should be equally offended, or that we should be offended by people being silly. We should see it for what it is, and most people do - utter nonsense.

But quite the opposite, you see - I don't get the "the body of this superheroine/character offends me!" standpoint, and the fact the same exaggerations (if not worse - as I mentioned above) happen for men and isn't seen as so much of an issue....invalidates the whole concept for me.

If one can't understand how a drawing, 3d model or other work of art will take licenses and leaves from reality and feels offended or "insecure" about it, it's their problem - not the author's. It's normal for artists to represent the human form in what is, according to their vision, its "ideal" form - it's always been the case. Such form might change in time and depending on the artist's vision, but the concept stays.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I won't be hiding my Sláine comics, nor will I be turming off the "bouncing breasts" setting in Dead or Alive, nor will I be reducing my consumption of pornography because of the unrealistic representations of either women, or men, or sex, or anything else. I'll simply be ignoring anyone who tries to impress their insecurities upon society. Because that is the best way to deal with such people - ignore them, and eventually they realise how silly they're being (well, that's the theory anyway!).

Problem is, sometimes these people manage to impose their own fallacies on the rest of us - which they are increasingly being successful at. There are countries, western "modern" and "advanced" countries, where there is serious debate about making pornography illegal. Comics styles have been modified in the past to "avoid hurting sensitivities". Ignoring them would be wonderful - but it might not be entirely possible.

Gbear

I always see these complaints about media depictions of xyz as a sure sign of petty-mindedness - shifting the blame onto someone or something else because you have insecurities of your own.
We all have insecurities, of course, but they're for you to deal with inside your own head.

Now sometimes people go the other direction and there seems to have been a push in the US towards self-confidence bordering on delusion where everyone is a winner and is perfect in every way. That's not great either. You don't really want to instill the belief in people that it's ok to be obese or socially retarded either. Those are things that will make your life a lot shorter and more difficult and something that everyone can work on, if not fully solve.

In a nutshell, a normal functioning person should be able to shrug off such pressures whilst also having a positive attitude towards bettering themselves and being healthy (by normal human standards - not professional athlete or fictional superhero ones). If they can't do that they should go get help from someone to do it (this would intersect with the problem of mental health as well).

While we're all human and of course we're going to subject to insecurities in practice, if we're going to push towards something it shouldn't be trivial nonsense like trying to control the direction of body shapes in media (who actually gives a **** about that?) but rather being comfortable in our own skin, particularly if genuine effort is put into maintaining it, and being more resilient to mindless fluff about who's got the biggest tits or can lift the heaviest thing.
Pissing contests are pretty natural human activity, but that doesn't mean we can't work to make them less acceptable.

So, to the OP's point, we shouldn't be joining in the moaning about irrelevant bollocks - we should be denouncing such moaning for being so pointless in the first place. It's a negative, regressive, anti-artistic and ultimately self-centered approach to making people better themselves.

orubiru

I think I'd like to acknowledge this comic "Faith" as being an example of someone just getting out there and making the kind of comic book character that they want to see. http://www.mtv.com/news/2423809/faith-valiant-plus-size-superhero/

It's definitely not my kind of thing but the creators should be applauded for doing something other than just whining about other people's creations.

I do have some serious issues with the characters look though and the justifications for it.

One of the problems I have here is that in the depictions of Faith she clearly does not live a healthy lifestyle (cos she's actually quite fat) and I wonder at what point it's actually just as dangerous for kids to think it's OK if you don't understand how diet and exercise and calories work because you are fine just as you are.

The reason why athletes such as rugby players are rightly held up as role models is because these are people with drive and ambition who work hard to get what they want from life. Their look is a direct consequence of their discipline and dedication.

With fictional characters, sure some of the drawn/animated depictions of women in media are outrageous (see R. Mika from the upcoming Street Fighter game as an example) but they are clearly not meant to be realistic and I honestly wonder how much influence they actually have on people's mental well-being. If you are taking cartoon images THAT seriously then maybe it's time to back off and find something different to do with your time.

My general feeling here is that society would be in a better place if we educated people more on how to deal with their insecurities. Instead of reacting with "I am sick and tired of seeing these women like Black Widow and Catwoman in superhero movies with their unrealistic bodies" it would be better to acknowledge that these people have worked hard to look that way and there's nothing wrong with just accepting that. If you wanted to look like that you could so you either have to get to work or just let it go.

Can you imagine what it must be like to be a young lady starting to go on nights out with friends etc after 16 to 18 years of your family shoveling more potatoes, more pasta, more sauce, with a side of garlic bread into you? Then realizing that some of the other girls had parents who took care of their diet and encouraged them to do sports or just taught them about physical health in general? It can't be good for them.

Unfortunately the most vocal response to all this seems to be a negative reaction to people who are "fit and healthy". You are putting young girls in the position of looking at Black Widow in the Avengers and telling them that it's OK to react negatively to that "she's a lame comic book stereotype" or "she's portraying restrictive body norms" or such other rhetoric. How can that be good?

Of course as we get older a lot of us will lose out youthful figures and become a bit "out of shape" and that's kind of inevitable right?

When people say things like (in the case of the Faith character, from the article above) " younger readers who are getting into comics now, who’ll be able to see someone who looks like them from the onset" you have to be asking how in the hell have we found ourselves in a position where people, who maybe only stopped being fed by their parents a few years ago, are so ridiculously overweight?

The same goes for men. I see a lot of really fat young lads and wonder what the hell their parents must be thinking. If they DID want to look like Batman or Captain America they are sometimes leaving High School in such a state that it would take them 2 years or more to break up bad dieting habits and just get to a decent level of fitness, never mind get a "perfect" body.

It would be better overall if we were just honest about body depictions and listened to medical professionals regarding healthy and fit body types instead of using comic book depictions as a reference point.

gizmo555

smash wrote: »

In my 30's now and I have 17yr old cousins who were a lot bulkier and stronger two years ago than I've ever been, even at my fittest. All encouraged by their coaches in school who will give them rigorous weight training schedules and diets topped off with protein shakes and supplements.

And this is what that leads to:

Wexford chairman Diarmuid Devereux has revealed how four young players in the county have had double hip replacements.

The revelation comes after the Model County sacked their minor hurling manager Eddie Walsh for breaching the training ban rule for county minor teams. Under GAA rules, county minor teams aren't allowed to resume collective training until March 1.

Devereux said a stand had to be taken to protect young players from burnout.

"I know of four cases of players in their early twenties in Wexford who have had double hip-replacements. Players of that age should not be having serious problems with their hips," he said in the Irish Independent.

"I remember listening to Dr Pat O'Neill on the issue of burnout and the unreasonable demands placed on young players and it stuck me to the floor. As an Association, we have to face up to our responsibilities to our players, especially the younger ones who are playing in more than one grade."

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=206614

arayess

it is a crying shame that daddy pig is shown as a fat bubbling oaf while mammy pig is portrayed as a know-all practical goddess does everything right.
every single episode.


at least there was comedy value in the simpsons and homer was a hero of sorts. But in peppa pig none of this happens

furthermore it enforces the stereotype on the minds of the young.

Wibbs

H3llR4iser wrote: »

This is a very interesting concept. If you go to any gym, you will find at least a few women who train quite hard and have outstanding physiques - wide shoulders, toned chest, small waist and round hips. Those ladies are normal people like you, me and everyone else here and yet - within the limitations of reality, biology and physics - their appearance is not too far off what you see, say, Catwoman, Black Canary or Huntress depicted as.

The men, however...how many Wolverine, Thor or Barman-like bodies you see on non-steroid infused dudes? In many years, I yet have to see one.

It could be argued that this is because that women's ideal is easier to approach, or at least out of the gate more women naturally approach it, or have the capacity to do so. Outside of gyms entirely you'll see enough young women especially with that kind of physique. Now they may be "skinny fat" and staying in that shape without work will become increasingly difficult as the years pass, but as young slim women they're in the cultural ideal range. I'm skinny out of the box and wouldn't be close to fit, but if I was a woman with my body type I'd be considered within the ideal range. With NO work on my part. The most work I do is not cooking.

However to turn into a he-man superhero type I would require gargantuan amounts of work and let's face it in my case gargantuan amounts of chemical assistance. Even among bodybuilders who are extremely dedicated men(and women) their "perfect" look is extremely transitory, like a few days tops as they compete(after extreme diets and fat loss, even dehydration).

TL;DR? to turn an average young woman into closer to the ideal takes far less effort than to turn the average young man into closer to the ideal, hence we see much more of the former than the latter walking around, inside or outside gyms.

orubiru wrote: »

I think I'd like to acknowledge this comic "Faith" as being an example of someone just getting out there and making the kind of comic book character that they want to see. http://www.mtv.com/news/2423809/faith-valiant-plus-size-superhero/

It's definitely not my kind of thing but the creators should be applauded for doing something other than just whining about other people's creations.

I do have some serious issues with the characters look though and the justifications for it.

Actually for me it sums this stuff up nicely, take a look at her love interest. Major gym honed larger than Brad Pitt in Fight Club physique. Apparently "real women" don't like "curves" in their male fantasies… Oh and they have to be tall with it. Man you couldn't make it up and the lack of irony in the writers to boot. :pac:

Sleepy

I always find the notion that Brad Pitt was big in Fight Club amuzing, he wasn't at all, he was actually fairly scrawny, him "abs" were make-up and studio lighting. TBH, he was in far better shape in Thelma and Louise or Troy.

The "he must be on steroids" thing is totally overblown too. A guy can get big through lifting heavy things and eating lots of protein, it's actually very simple to do cleanly and anabolic drugs are an accelerator to, rather than a replacement for, hard work and discipline. Note that I said it's simple rather than easy: either way, you'll have to put in the hard work and discipline yourself in terms of diet. For younger guys, who have naturally higher testosterone levels, it's a lot easier.

I'd argue that while the female ideal might be easier for young women to attain, men have it far easier in our 30's and beyond as, while the basics are still the same (move more, eat less), we don't suffer the ravages of childbirth.

challengemaster

H3llR4iser wrote: »

This is a very interesting concept. If you go to any gym, you will find at least a few women who train quite hard and have outstanding physiques - wide shoulders, toned chest, small waist and round hips. Those ladies are normal people like you, me and everyone else here and yet - within the limitations of reality, biology and physics - their appearance is not too far off what you see, say, Catwoman, Black Canary or Huntress depicted as.

The men, however...how many Wolverine, Thor or Barman-like bodies you see on non-steroid infused dudes? In many years, I yet have to see one.

I still can't even wrap my head around why this is an issue. You're complaining that comicbook superheros aren't accurate representations of the general populus... Seems like a bit of a "well yeah, duh" moment to me. Their super powers aren't accurate in terms of reality, biology or physics either - but don't let that stop you.

It's also got a lot to do with perception of power to not leave the audience scratching their heads. If someone has super-strength, then you expect them to look like they're strong.

It'd be more comical rather than comicbook if they were all fat and balding.

Gaygooner

This isn't the place for this sort of comment. Please read the charter before posting again.

H3llR4iser

Wibbs wrote: »

It could be argued that this is because that women's ideal is easier to approach, or at least out of the gate more women naturally approach it, or have the capacity to do so. Outside of gyms entirely you'll see enough young women especially with that kind of physique. Now they may be "skinny fat" and staying in that shape without work will become increasingly difficult as the years pass, but as young slim women they're in the cultural ideal range. I'm skinny out of the box and wouldn't be close to fit, but if I was a woman with my body type I'd be considered within the ideal range. With NO work on my part. The most work I do is not cooking.

Agreed, however the body type I referred to is slightly different - not the "skinny girl" type, if you look at some of the most criticized comics characters, they are built more like fitness models than lingerie models - wider shoulders, visible muscle tone in the arms/legs etc.

And just like in your example above, it is indeed the body shape most women naturally gravitate towards if they follow a healthy diet and do proper exercise with complete workouts including weights, rather than unbalanced "all aerobics and nothing else" fad workouts.

Sleepy wrote: »

I always find the notion that Brad Pitt was big in Fight Club amuzing, he wasn't at all, he was actually fairly scrawny, him "abs" were make-up and studio lighting. TBH, he was in far better shape in Thelma and Louise or Troy.

He was just skinny in the movie, agreed. If I suddenly and magically lost 15kg tomorrow morning even I, of all people, would have a ripped sixpack!

challengemaster wrote: »

I still can't even wrap my head around why this is an issue. You're complaining that comicbook superheros aren't accurate representations of the general populus... Seems like a bit of a "well yeah, duh" moment to me. Their super powers aren't accurate in terms of reality, biology or physics either - but don't let that stop you.

It's also got a lot to do with perception of power to not leave the audience scratching their heads. If someone has super-strength, then you expect them to look like they're strong.

But if you read the whole posts:p, you'd know my issue is with the general stupidity of pointing out "unrealistic" female bodies in works of fantasy/art and, even more to the point, with the completely shameless double standards - not the depictions themselves...

challengemaster wrote: »

It'd be more comical rather than comicbook if they were all fat and balding.

Yes; these drawings, models and whatnot, depict fantasy people involved in extreme feats of strength, stamina and ability. It is obvious, to me, that they'd be in peak physical conditions and for this reason I find the whole base idea behind this "Faith" comic to be completely ridiculous - without going into total, bottomless nerd-dom discussions (e.g. "flight burns a lot of calories"):D.

Bringing it into the real world, it's as if people complained that there isn't an obese footballer who's as good as Messi or Ronaldo, or that many women athletes do actually have great bodies.

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually for me it sums this stuff up nicely, take a look at her love interest. Major gym honed larger than Brad Pitt in Fight Club physique. Apparently "real women" don't like "curves" in their male fantasies… Oh and they have to be tall with it. Man you couldn't make it up and the lack of irony in the writers to boot.

Perfectly to the point with my initial observation, and sums up the double standards issue: if the roles were reversed, with a nerdy, overweight "hero" going after the hot supermodel type it would have caused, in the best case, hilarity...

orubiru

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Yes; these drawings, models and whatnot, depict fantasy people involved in extreme feats of strength, stamina and ability. It is obvious, to me, that they'd be in peak physical conditions and for this reason I find the whole base idea behind this "Faith" comic to be completely ridiculous - without going into total, bottomless nerd-dom discussions (e.g. "flight burns a lot of calories"):D.

Bringing it into the real world, it's as if people complained that there isn't an obese footballer who's as good as Messi or Ronaldo, or that many women athletes do actually have great bodies.

Perfectly to the point with my initial observation, and sums up the double standards issue: if the roles were reversed, with a nerdy, overweight "hero" going after the hot supermodel type it would have caused, in the best case, hilarity...

While I find the reasoning behind "Faith" to be a bit ridiculous and a bit dishonest I think that there has to be at least some acknowledgement that the creators have at least gone out there and created a character that appeals to them.

After all, one of the points often made when people complain about depictions of women in media is "well, why don't you just go and make your own comic/movies/games then!"

I can definitely agree that there's a double standard there when we see she is able to get the guy with the "ideal body" in a comic that is supposed to be in opposition to "restrictive body norms".

However, I feel a bit guilty about holding the opinion that if people want fat superheroes then they should create their own and then immediately blasting the creators for doing just that.

I think that maybe guys, in general just don't care? To be honest, I'd be kind of embarrassed if one of my friends was ranting on about the bodies of Batman or Captain America and I'd be equally embarrassed to find out they had made blogs or youtube videos calling out "the industry" for depicting men in such a way. I think that most of us would just say "don't be daft" and that would be the end of that.

On the other hand I think when girls speak up about thin models or big boobed comic book characters they get a lot of support from their friends, both online and in real life. Maybe it's because a lot of people work really hard to convince young women that they are being objectified by society and by media.

Maybe the double standard is that society says to men "you are so dumb for complaining about this" but says to women "yes, you have a legitimate grievance here"?

H3llR4iser

orubiru wrote: »

While I find the reasoning behind "Faith" to be a bit ridiculous and a bit dishonest I think that there has to be at least some acknowledgement that the creators have at least gone out there and created a character that appeals to them.

orubiru wrote: »

I can definitely agree that there's a double standard there when we see she is able to get the guy with the "ideal body" in a comic that is supposed to be in opposition to "restrictive body norms".

However, I feel a bit guilty about holding the opinion that if people want fat superheroes then they should create their own and then immediately blasting the creators for doing just that.

Oh yes, good that they actually did something. Kudos - but as you say, the whole thing falls flat on its face when she has the "Big Jim" love interest.

orubiru wrote: »

I think that maybe guys, in general just don't care? To be honest, I'd be kind of embarrassed if one of my friends was ranting on about the bodies of Batman or Captain America and I'd be equally embarrassed to find out they had made blogs or youtube videos calling out "the industry" for depicting men in such a way. I think that most of us would just say "don't be daft" and that would be the end of that.

On the other hand I think when girls speak up about thin models or big boobed comic book characters they get a lot of support from their friends, both online and in real life. Maybe it's because a lot of people work really hard to convince young women that they are being objectified by society and by media.

Maybe the double standard is that society says to men "you are so dumb for complaining about this" but says to women "yes, you have a legitimate grievance here"?

Where I see the double standards is that there's continuous crying foul about models, actresses, comic/videogame/cartoon female characters proposing "wrong models" and "being objectified", while the exact same happens for men. For anybody with a functional brain cell, it's immediately apparent that it works both ways, but a lot of people choose to ignore that and only see what they want - maybe, as you suggest, to fulfill an agenda. Yet, they get a lot of attention and manage to influence the authors - there have been numerous "toning downs" in recent times.

Not for a moment I believe that "we", as men, should go the same way; But responding to the "real women don't look like that!" whinges with "real men ain't mountainous beefcakes either!" would be a great start

One eyed Jack

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Not for a moment I believe that "we", as men, should go the same way; But responding to the "real women don't look like that!" whinges with "real men ain't mountainous beefcakes either!" would be a great start

The bit in bold, I can completely agree with. The second part - respond to a whinge with a whinge? Can we not just ignore them and carry on with our lives because we have better things to be doing?


Just on the whole 'unrealistic muscle groups' thing, I just got my wife to send me on a pic from my brothers Facebook profile (it's possibly the only one he's not wearing a thong, nobody needs to see that :pac:), but there's no steroids or anything involved there. When he bronzes up for competitions, well, it looks repulsive IMO, there's nothing attractive about it.

I can admire the discipline it takes to achieve those results, but it's not something I would ever want to aspire to myself tbh.

challengemaster

Indeed, people being "offended" by things are being given way too much time and attention and actually forcing changes, where they should just be told to fup off and deal with it.

beks101

Interesting thread to read.

I guess as women, we're conditioned to talk about all body-related matters from a young age. I remember listening to kids harp on about diets and weight loss and all that guff as an under-developed 10 year old in fourth class and feeling inadequate because I had had chips for lunch. The shaming starts early on, the hyper-awareness of our physiques and how this aspiration towards a 'perfect body' will define us and the conversations are socially acceptable from before you've even developed the brain power to make healthy decisions for yourself.

That culture then translates into more column inches by female journalists discussing diet-du-jours or feminists lamenting the ideals and "real women have curves" campaigns and round and round the wheel goes.

I don't think it's quite the same for men. The same unrealistic ideals are there, but the culture of conversation surrounding it isn't. It's not really OK to be vocal about being body conscious or counting calories or feeling insecure about your weight/shoulders/chest/belly as a fourteen year old boy I'd imagine? I doubt that same vocabulary exists, or is allowed to exist. You just get your arse down the gym and pump as much iron as you can find, because that's the manly and macho and socially acceptable response to those insecurities perhaps. Deal with being called a fat bastard and laugh because "men aren't supposed to be sensitive about this stuff", because that's the memo you got while I was listening to my female friends cry about how fat they felt.

Wibbs wrote: »

It could be argued that this is because that women's ideal is easier to approach, or at least out of the gate more women naturally approach it, or have the capacity to do so. Outside of gyms entirely you'll see enough young women especially with that kind of physique. Now they may be "skinny fat" and staying in that shape without work will become increasingly difficult as the years pass, but as young slim women they're in the cultural ideal range. I'm skinny out of the box and wouldn't be close to fit, but if I was a woman with my body type I'd be considered within the ideal range. With NO work on my part. The most work I do is not cooking.

As a woman, to reach the sort of dangerously low body weight you're talking about sitting at so naturally, would require me to put my life on hold to stop eating, run hours and hours of cardio in the gym daily, effectively develop a major eating disorder and stop menstruating. Along with everything else that comes with anorexia/bulimia/defying my body's natural shape.

And even though you'll always have your effortlessly skinny never-gain-weight crowd, the above would be true of most women I'd say. The Kate Moss thing isn't a mold a majority of women will slink into without coming into major physical and/or psychological strain.

And for the ones that DO fit the skinny model, well there's the "big is beautiful" brigade to tell them they're not "Real women" or there's a new Kim Kardashian on the block to promote massive boobs and an arse the size of a small country that they'll never accomplish without major surgery. ie INADEQUACY. You're not skinny/curvy enough. There's a marketing empire built on this stuff.

The male thing is becoming more and more visible too, even if it's less talked about. I live in London and I see these big, built-like-a-brick-sh1thouse types everywhere, as I do the entire aisles devoted to protein supplements in the supermarket or the ad campaigns with beastly looking fellas in their CKs.

Sleepy

beks101 wrote: »

I don't think it's quite the same for men. The same unrealistic ideals are there, but the culture of conversation surrounding it isn't. It's not really OK to be vocal about being body conscious or counting calories or feeling insecure about your weight/shoulders/chest/belly as a fourteen year old boy I'd imagine? I doubt that same vocabulary exists, or is allowed to exist. You just get your arse down the gym and pump as much iron as you can find, because that's the manly and macho and socially acceptable response to those insecurities perhaps.

I think you've hit on something here: the problem is with the culture of conversation women have adopted here.

Being vocal about being body concious, counting calories or your insecurities essentially translates to whining imo. A trait I personally find to be totally unacceptable in anyone, male or female.

Rather than just accepting themselves as the are or getting on with the universally known solution to what they perceive as a problem (eat less, move more in the case of weight), women are being socialised to whine about "unrealistic expectations", share (often counter-productive) miracle solutions or bitch about those with different body-types than themselves.

TBH, it's one are of mental health men have a far more positive attitude to ime.

Potatoeman

Most men don't go for the stickthin model look and most women don't go for the roidhead look but compare the Thor actor and Black Widow actor on body types and it's far more work to get a body like his.

I was always thin but never had muscles. In my mid 20's I started weights a few hours a week and after a while I was training 10hours. No supplements or anything and I gained 2 stone over a year. No sixpack as that takes a diet on top of all the exercise.

People with weight problems usually stop and start diets and don't stay training. I have had women I work with complain that it is far harder for them but they have no idea the how much work it takes men to get muscle mass even defined pecks and shoulders but once you get there it's easy to maintain. Many were shocked to find out I was training the hours I was. People will say it's easier for men in their thirties but many women get through their twenties with very little effort as long as they don't overeat and time just catches up as their metabolism slows down.

Wibbs

I'm with you B save for this part.

beks101 wrote: »

As a woman, to reach the sort of dangerously low body weight you're talking about sitting at so naturally, would require me to put my life on hold to stop eating, run hours and hours of cardio in the gym daily, effectively develop a major eating disorder and stop menstruating. Along with everything else that comes with anorexia/bulimia/defying my body's natural shape.

I wasn't talking about anything close to anorexic, or catwalk model proportions, nor "dangerously low weight". IMH that's an example of an unconscious assumption of my/our cultures definition of slim and the Ideal(™). Our cultures notions about body shape have become dangerously askew, in both directions and for both genders(but much more for women). Apparently Brad Pitt was "scrawny" even "skinny" in the Fight Club flic. Eh… Maybe if we're comparing him to bull necked Russian nightclub bouncers he is. People are getting fatter in the west(slightly more men than women too). Our "natural" body shape is getting larger and larger is becoming seen as more of a norm and what was the norm is often seen as underweight, even "dangerously underweight". Lots of extremes going on. FWIW if I was to pick a general definition of "slim" I'd say Scarlett Johansson would be hovering around it. There would be a helluva lot of young women out of an average night in an Irish night spot that would be around her figure and if we go back 40 or 50 years, hell, 30 years there would be more.

On the roids and male actors point. IMH if you see a guy, especially if he's looking down the barrel of middle age, packing on the muscles in a short time I call shenanigans. There may be the odd "freak of nature" but otherwise… And it's an open secret in the business. The amount of artifice in that business(and even more in fashion) is scarily high. The digital vaseline on the lens is only a small part of it. Oh and by the by I would personally have zero issue with a guy adding in extra curricular "supplements"(at a non crazy level of course), to bring his biology at 50 or 60 back to what it was at 30. HRT stylee. Indeed I've often mused to myself it would be interesting to study athletes, film stars, bodybuilders and such who've been juicing for decades(on often huge doses) to see what side effects actually occur, so that men if they so choose could make medically informed and supported decisions about rejuvenation therapies they might want to try out.

Sleepy wrote: »

I think you've hit on something here: the problem is with the culture of conversation women have adopted here.

It's not a recent thing. The first diagnosis of eating disorders among women were noted by the ancient Greeks.

Potatoeman

Some supplements have been reported to cause kidney problems. Growth hormones cause internal organs to grow in size. Unless you are trying to bulk up quickly just eat things with protein like chicken after training.

Gaygooner

Suicide is the single biggest killer of guys under 45. We aren’t talking about it enough. Let’s talk #BiggerIssues thndr.me/AM6i3U

Wibbs

Gaygooner maybe start another thread rather than take this one off topic.

Big Ian

Thing about men is, we see a ripped guy and either don't care or say 'fair play to him'. Women (well the more feminist types) see a hot girl and either blame the patriarchy or accuse her of having an eating disorder.

Big Ian

Big Ian wrote: »

Thing about men is, we see a ripped guy and either don't care or say 'fair play to him'. Women (well the more feminist types) see a hot girl and either blame the patriarchy or accuse her of having an eating disorder.

Absolute sweeping generalizations right there.

Anyway, to go back to the original topic - I don't mind about people having extremely buff bodies, if it is relevant to what is going on. The OP mentioned fantasy games/movies; by and large, the kind of stuff that would happen in such material would resort to a person needing to be this way. An extremely weedy barbarian just doesn't make sense.

Big Ian

Deleted User wrote: »

Absolute sweeping generalizations right there.

Anyway, to go back to the original topic - I don't mind about people having extremely buff bodies, if it is relevant to what is going on. The OP mentioned fantasy games/movies; by and large, the kind of stuff that would happen in such material would resort to a person needing to be this way. An extremely weedy barbarian just doesn't make sense.

True though. Remember when women were freaking out the 'beady body ready' ad? Men don't do that. We don't see a ripped guy in an advertisement and cry about bs eating disorders or objectification or whatever.

beks101

Wibbs wrote: »

I'm with you B save for this part.I wasn't talking about anything close to anorexic, or catwalk model proportions, nor "dangerously low weight". IMH that's an example of an unconscious assumption of my/our cultures definition of slim and the Ideal(™). Our cultures notions about body shape have become dangerously askew, in both directions and for both genders(but much more for women). Apparently Brad Pitt was "scrawny" even "skinny" in the Fight Club flic. Eh… Maybe if we're comparing him to bull necked Russian nightclub bouncers he is. People are getting fatter in the west(slightly more men than women too). Our "natural" body shape is getting larger and larger is becoming seen as more of a norm and what was the norm is often seen as underweight, even "dangerously underweight". Lots of extremes going on. FWIW if I was to pick a general definition of "slim" I'd say Scarlett Johansson would be hovering around it. There would be a helluva lot of young women out of an average night in an Irish night spot that would be around her figure and if we go back 40 or 50 years, hell, 30 years there would be more.

Touché to all of that.

I was responding more to the idea that your not-a-pick-on-ya silhouette would be close to the cultural ideal were you a female, despite the fact that you've not had to work even a bit to achieve it. It was less of an unconscious assumption of our cultural definition of 'slim' and more a reference to the litheness of Your Royal Self tbh, I've heard you mention it a few times before

And to that I'd say - no. Most women don't naturally or effortlessly achieve that. I'd be pretty fit and health-conscious, I take care of myself, but to reach that sort of low body fat would require a whole other level of neurosis and iron-clad discipline in my daily life. Equally to hit the kind of weight distribution of Scarlett Johansson - who pretty much embodies the Ancient Greek Golden Ratio of perfection in her vital stats - would probably require surgery on my part. It's one thing being slim and healthy, it's another entirely to hit that Perfect Ten we see in the movies and in magazines, whether it's Scarlett or Brad Pitt in FC or any number of celebrities that spend more on their appearance than most of us will spend in our lifetime.

Yeah, we're all getting fatter. Perhaps that shifts the goalposts too. I don't think there's anything incidental about the fact that our ever-expanding waistlines coincide with a growing obsession with body image and weight loss and the fitness industry and all that it has to offer. As we get bigger, we get more aspirational.

Women want to be smaller/more honed and toned; men want to be bigger and more ripped, because that's simply not the mainstream look anymore. At least off our screens and out on the street. You want what few have, because our cultural references tell us that it will make us more valuable.

Wibbs

beks101 wrote: »

I was responding more to the idea that your not-a-pick-on-ya silhouette would be close to the cultural ideal were you a female, despite the fact that you've not had to work even a bit to achieve it. It was less of an unconscious assumption of our cultural definition of 'slim' and more a reference to the litheness of Your Royal Self tbh, I've heard you mention it a few times before

ahh right, gotcha. Feck off you. :P :pac: The joke is B - and actually another example of how skewed we've become - I'm actually not that skinny. I certainly know thinner men, but I'm likely to be perceived and more, perceive myself as "skinnier" today more than I was when I was say 20 when I was the same size. More men around me were also the same size. To go back further if you look at any of those programmes on 1960's music, check out the bands and the audiences. The men and women were much skinnier on average. Hell, stand me beside the Stones or the Beatles and I'd look well built(and I'd make Jagger look like a hobbit). *note to self, build time machine*

Funny enough I've seen this from an odd source, namely vintage wristwatches or more particularly vintage watch straps. If I buy an size "average" brand new strap I'm either at the last adjustment or I have to drill an extra hole to make it fit, however over the years I've found early 20th century straps and I'd have two or three adjustments to spare(mens watches have become steadily become bigger too, but that's much more a fashion thing. They went back to tiny in the 1980's for example). Another area would be vintage clothing, a lot easier for me to get stuff for next to nothing as there was more of my size back in the day.

And to that I'd say - no. Most women don't naturally or effortlessly achieve that. I'd be pretty fit and health-conscious, I take care of myself, but to reach that sort of low body fat would require a whole other level of neurosis and iron-clad discipline in my daily life. Equally to hit the kind of weight distribution of Scarlett Johansson - who pretty much embodies the Ancient Greek Golden Ratio of perfection in her vital stats - would probably require surgery on my part. It's one thing being slim and healthy, it's another entirely to hit that Perfect Ten we see in the movies and in magazines, whether it's Scarlett or Brad Pitt in FC or any number of celebrities that spend more on their appearance than most of us will spend in our lifetime.

Sure they spend the big bucks and the vaseline coated lens and hours in photoshop, however outside of professional shoots Scarlett is nowhere close to underweight. A quick google of her in a bikini shows that. Yes she has the hourglass figure, but as far as her level of body fat goes you'd see a lot of women at that level. Champagne and ciggies diet blow away in a wind runway model she is not. Not even close to it. That's how skewed our perceptions have become that she'd be in the "underweight" category and might even require a "neurosis" to be her weight.

Yeah, we're all getting fatter. Perhaps that shifts the goalposts too. I don't think there's anything incidental about the fact that our ever-expanding waistlines coincide with a growing obsession with body image and weight loss and the fitness industry and all that it has to offer. As we get bigger, we get more aspirational.

True enough. The fitness/diet thing was always a consideration for women, but it has become scarily prevalent and scarily oppressive. Our beauty icons have become further from the norm, or appear to. A) because people are getting fatter on average. IE outside of Marilyn Monroe's tiny waist, the difference between her and an average American woman of the 50's was less marked than the difference between your modern icon and an average American woman of today. And those ideals are further distanced by technology. QV the aforementioned Scarlett. In her publicity shots she looks a helluva lot skinnier than she does in Real Life(™). Pores and cellulite disappear and she looks like a bloody alien, but it's so ubiquitous these days it no longer looks alien to us. The Brittney Spears before and after photoshopping a good example. They took an already slim woman and stretched and narrowed her even more. That's before we get to surgical and other medical "enhancements". An ancient Greek woman may have bemoaned extra weight, but the ideals in the statues she saw around her were well within normal women's range and reality. The men's were generally much more the exaggerated ones. EG the Venus FeckIvelostmearms



Is pretty "average" in size. You'd see a lot of women walking down an average street that would be well within her size/weight range. She'd be considered a fatty by the fashion industry and would require a boob job in Hollywood.

Whereas Laocoon WhydidIlettheladsbuyapetsnake…



Would be a teeny tiny percentage of men. They'd have to be young, have incredible genetics and put in huge work in the gym to even approach that size and definition.*aside* when we live in the days that elevates Lady Gaga to the pantheon of genius look upon that example of art and ponder. Readied up by a collaboration of two Greek dudes IIRC.

Of it all, it's the changing perceptions of the "ideal" that fascinates me. And how rapidly those ideals can change especially in the last century. Mostly for women, it has to be said. A Miss world of say 1950 wouldn't get in the door of the local heats today and the 1960's Twiggy wouldn't have got a look in if she showed up for a model casting in 1950. Not always the ladies mind you.

IMH things really started to change for the men in the 1980's. Before then outside of Tarzan flics male actors were relatively average(and even in the Tarzan flics, they were "just" big), but then the roiders came along with Stallone et al. It was all huge bodybuilder stylee for a time and that was very popular. That shifted the muscle look up a fair bit overall, then more recently it kicked off again with the oddly buddy movie with a large side order of homoerotic "300" flic. I found it interesting that some of the most homophobic "macho" types I knew loved it… As if it gave them some sort of "permission" to admire other men or something.

Still the male ideal in the west at least has remained relatively static, or at least more static than the female ideal. If DaVinci's Vetruvian man walked out of the surf alongside Daniel Craig's 007, the ladies(and some of the gentlemen) might well get whiplash deciding between the two. Though to be fair Botticelli's Venus is a bit of a ride too.

What I think has changed is where the average lies and the widening gap between that average and the cultural ideal and all that comes along with that gap.


PS I burn off mad calories from typing guff. I should bring out a Christmas fitness slimming video. I'm thinking the title might be "Bullshít is calorie free and burns fat too!".

Saipanne

When you live in a world where everything is amazing, you just invent shït to complain about.

- Louis CK


OK, my point is, we don't have real problems here in the West so we just go around looking for things to be offended by, you see it all the time, even South Park are lampooning this phenomenon, this season. I think if people focused more on the numerous positives we would be happier. That's all!

Is that OK, am I allowed to make this point?

ancapailldorcha

Saipanne wrote: »

When you live in a world where everything is amazing, you just invent shït to complain about.

- Louis CK

If you have nothing constructive to add then please do not post here. Thanks.

Saipanne

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

If you have nothing constructive to add then please do not post here. Thanks.

I edited my post.

The Black Oil

smash wrote: »

In my 30's now and I have 17yr old cousins who were a lot bulkier and stronger two years ago than I've ever been, even at my fittest. All encouraged by their coaches in school who will give them rigorous weight training schedules and diets topped off with protein shakes and supplements.

BrianD3 wrote: »

With social media, facebook, instagram, niteclub "culture" and the glorification of professional sportspeople and celebrities generally, I think there is more pressure than ever on young lads to be big and lean, to hit the gym hard and to take steroids. IMO there are far more built young lads around than there were when I was 18. Thinking back to how insecure I was when I was 18, if I was that age now I'd say there's a good chance that I would be taking steroids.

Not the first time I've heard that suggestion about coaches. I was going to suggest it's probably not something which is spoken about that much until gizmo555 posted that story from hoganstand. It's a shame, really, as it seems to take away from kids being kids. It'd be interesting to compare the physicality of the Irish rugby team now compared to 15 years ago. I was on holiday recently with some triathlon/marathon heads and one pointed out that we're pretty much not built for endurance. Sure, some people can do it, but not in the long term - the body wasn't designed for it. It's hardly surprising that many professional athletes retire at some point in their 30s or earlier.

beks101 wrote: »

I don't think it's quite the same for men. The same unrealistic ideals are there, but the culture of conversation surrounding it isn't. It's not really OK to be vocal about being body conscious or counting calories or feeling insecure about your weight/shoulders/chest/belly as a fourteen year old boy I'd imagine? I doubt that same vocabulary exists, or is allowed to exist. You just get your arse down the gym and pump as much iron as you can find, because that's the manly and macho and socially acceptable response to those insecurities perhaps. Deal with being called a fat bastard and laugh because "men aren't supposed to be sensitive about this stuff", because that's the memo you got while I was listening to my female friends cry about how fat they felt.

It's hard to know. There are some differences and perhaps some overlap where the 'banter' is similar (in intent?) for men and women. If you look at this report for example, comparison is a key influencer amongst adolescent women, bullying can hit a factor for adolescent men, women spend more time on their appearance (and there is probably some personal judgement and expectations bound up in that) and maybe the bullying for men contributes to behaviours designed to counteract negative weight gain or bulking up is designed to shield them from it. But yes, it'd be good to know how the language manifests in these conversations today.

I was never into comic books, I must admit.

It seems to me that discussion of characters in video games are simply another area where debating gender online is a potential PITA. Being a simple Tetris/CoD/Solitaire man myself, I'm not terribly aware of characters that have stood the test of time or that have generated debate. I do hear about where there are complaints around gaming and women because that sometimes leads to articles or Twitter outrage. imo, there are genuine concerns about how women in Hollywood are depicted (let's be honest, it boils down to laziness and it's that which I find bothersome rather than offensive, just write better, ffs!) and some of the gaming complaints may feed off of that, tangentially. Memorable characters be it books/films or TV are that because they're characters and good story comes from that, not from plot.

My perception would be that the whole gaming infrastructure is very male orientated and therefore the status quo is seen as fine, hence the lack of discussion around male body image within that universe.

A quick Google Scholar pulls up some abstracts that perhaps don't get into the mainstream media.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-007-9250-0

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0747563214002386

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S174014451300140X

Big Ian

Big Ian wrote: »

True though. Remember when women were freaking out the 'beady body ready' ad? Men don't do that. We don't see a ripped guy in an advertisement and cry about bs eating disorders or objectification or whatever.

Are you saying that men cannot suffer from eating disorders? And are you saying that women that suffer from them are BS? Just making sure I'm understanding you clearly.

ancapailldorcha

To be honest, I've never set too much store by the likes of comic books and TV. In the latter, actors and actresses are selected based on how attractive they are though obviously ability is a factor as well. One of the first graphic novels I ever read was Batman: Hush. Forget Batman (who's built link a tank btw), Commissioner Gordon and Alfred look like they've been hitting the weight rooms and protein shakes. Regarding games and films, it's going to look a tad daft if someone like Nathan Drake is going to scale cliffs sans safety equipment with a sagging paunch. I don't mind characters looking athletic and somewhat muscular but it's always bothered me how female characters are presented. Games used to be friggin' expensive. I'd always use whatever info was at hand to appraise one before buying it so having a barely dressed, unnaturally curvy woman on the front is something I'd like to think would have no effect on me.

Anyway, while I don't think I would ever have started a thread on this, it's something that's subconsciously irritated me. I see a lot of places selling these protein powders which troubles me a little bit. Don't get me wrong, weightlifting is fantastic for both genders and I only wish I had the resolve to stick with something like that but a part of me is wondering if they're doing it for the health benefits or if they feel like they have to on some level. I don't think that latter would apply to women so much as men.

Bit of a long one for me there, nothing compared to that behemoth posted by Wibbs though. I think beks is right in that women have it much worse than men in regards to expectations of appearance. I could do with a bit of exercise myself but the only form I seem to enjoy is long walks. I've a bit of a beer belly (odd since I barely drink at all) but I don't think I'd get judged too harshly for that by the opposite sex. What does bother me is that some men, like a friend of mine seem to think that they have to look big and buff and doing so entails hours upon hours spent in the gym with severe constraints placed on their diets and activities outside it. I'd rather have a good book and a wee snack myself.

That's something I found crazy, ancapaill. Just how much emphasis they place on regimes with regards to exercise and nutrition. It's important to look after yourself, sure, but sometimes it borders on near fanatical status; I was in a gym before, talking briefly to one of the instructors that was doing some exercise during his off time and he said sheepishly that he had eaten a slice of cake. Part of me thought that he was being absolutely serious and now needs to do hours of exercise to undo the damage of a cake.

In some regards, it really feels like it is a new kind of eating disorder. OK, yes, exaggeration, sure, but it can be worrying. You eat something and now need to purge it through cardio and weights. Again, exaggeration.

Regarding the depiction of women - absolutely. It is utterly ludicrous how there's some games, movies, and TV shows (I'm looking at you anime) that depict women as nothing but big breasted, loosely clad pieces of flesh.

For me the perfect example of a fantastic depiction of women is the reboot of the Tomb Raider series.