General guidance on training a dog

flogen

Hi folks,

We got a rescue dog over the weekend (2-3 year old male, Collie cross - I'm guessing with a spaniel).

He has a lovely temperament and has been very calm so far considering the upheaval he's going through - but it's clear that he has had next to no training in his previous home (though he does seem to be house trained and knows 'sit').

I know it will take time for him to get used to us and what we expect, and that's fine, I just want to make sure we're giving him every opportunity to learn. So I'm looking here for tips on what the best approach is.

For example, he keeps jumping on the couch. Our approach to this has been to tell him 'down' and, if he does it of his own free will, we praise and pet him... but if he has to be taken down we don't. Is that the right thing to do?

Same goes for jumping up at the kitchen counters.

He also seems to give out a bit when there's food around that he's not being given (like when we're cooking/eating). This will happen even if he's just been fed - my thinking is he's used to living off scraps and isn't yet assured enough to know he's now on a more regular food schedule.

Are we best to just let him get used to us eating in front of him, or should we keep him away when we are? And should we just ignore his barks or react in some way?

At the moment it feels like we're having to correct him a lot and I'm sure it's doing his head in - but there does seem to be some progress already so hopefully it won't take long for him to know the rules. Just want to make sure we're helping that happen sooner rather than later!!

Thanks.

Ziycon

Positive reinforcement training is the best way to go, if your happy to give it a go yourself then there is tons of material only a search away on the next, if not something you'd be comfortable doing yourself check out king of paws as I heard good things about their training, there not over expensive either, lastly have a look for a local dog training group, there are tons of them around the country that meet up on weekends in local parks and charge a small fee but have a good wealth of knowledge.

Hatcho

Use positive reinforcement for all the behaviours you wish to encourage - lieing calmly on his bed, coming when called etc. For behaviour you want to reduce such as jumping, counter surfing we were advised to use the 'Too Bad' technique.

This works by simply saying 'Too bad' (or any other suitable phrase) in a normal voice at the very moment you see the undesired behaviour, then just lead the dog out of the room (or leave the room yourself) and close the door. After 30 seconds simply let the dog back in and act completely normal. No raised voices or drama required at all. Dogs love company and once they twig that a certain behaviour results in 30 secs of isolation, they will tend to exhibit that behaviour less and less. Well, that's the theory anyway!

We had been spending weeks saying/shouting 'No' at our new puppy to the point that it had simply become background noise to the dog. Also, since there was no consequence attached to the 'No' there was little reason for the puppy to refrain from the behaviour. It's important that saying 'Too bad' is always accompanied with the 30 seconds of isolation - consistency is very important to enable your dog to realise there's a consequence for certain behaviours.

On the subject of jumping specifically you can try the following...

Hold a high value treat (turkey slices for example) over your dog's head. When he tries to jump for it raise your arm so it can't be reached. When he stops jumping for it immediately give him the treat and praise him with an excited 'Yes!' or 'Good boy'. If you don't have one invest in a clicker - they are great for training sessions just like these. Eventually your dog will learn that NOT jumping results in a treat whereas jumping gets him nothing. You can then progress to getting him to sit and wait each time a treat is being given to him.

Don't expect instant results, training takes time, and always be patient, firm and calm with your dog - they will always pick up on this. Try to finish any training session on a positive note - that way he'll be keen to kick it off next time he sees you getting ready for the next session.

Check out clicker training on youtube - there is tons of info there to get you going. It's so cool when a training session goes well - the both of you are happy and it really strengthens the bond between you both...

hardCopy

What worked for us was to teach an alternative way to get what he wants and teach him to be patient.

For counter surfing we taught him "leave it", if he smells something nice in the counter and doesn't jump at it I give him a piece. If he lies down patiently while I'm preparing food, he might get a piece. All he wants is the food, if he can get it without jumping up he'll do whatever you want. You also need to be careful to avoid leaving out temptations, especially in the beginning.

For the couch, we tried constantly moving him back onto the floor but he got too good at predicting our movements and would stay on the couch until we were within reach and then jump back up when we sat back down. In the end we got him a comfy bed in the sitting room and for the first week we gave him a treat every time he lay down along with random treats and belly rubs for staying there. Again, he just wants to be comfy so we gave him something else comfy.

frash

Mind if I jump in here too?
We adopted a 5 year old collie-mix a couple of weeks ago and unlike your dog OP he's a dream in the house.
No begging. No couches. No counter-surfing. Basically the most chilled out dog in the house - kids can run right past him & he doesn't flinch.

Outside can be a different story.
He pulls hard on the lead (especially when he sees another dog) but we're trying out a harness now that is helping.
Off the lead he'll come back when called (mostly) but is constantly running up to other dogs - some he'll just sniff & move on but others he'll bark at and growl (no teeth or snapping though). Is there any way to get him to just sniff & move on or does this just come seeing other dogs more often?

VonVix

frash wrote: »

Mind if I jump in here too?
We adopted a 5 year old collie-mix a couple of weeks ago and unlike your dog OP he's a dream in the house.
No begging. No couches. No counter-surfing. Basically the most chilled out dog in the house - kids can run right past him & he doesn't flinch.

Outside can be a different story.
He pulls hard on the lead (especially when he sees another dog) but we're trying out a harness now that is helping.
Off the lead he'll come back when called (mostly) but is constantly running up to other dogs - some he'll just sniff & move on but others he'll bark at and growl (no teeth or snapping though). Is there any way to get him to just sniff & move on or does this just come seeing other dogs more often?

I'd say you should be putting him on a recall line until he returns to you reliably without running towards another dog. You really do not want your dog approaching other dogs without permission from yourself, whether they are friendly dogs or not, and especially if he is approaching leashed dogs. You don't know the other dogs and you wouldn't want him approaching the wrong dog on the wrong day.

I have a fearful dog who I keep leashed and a dog running at us off leash can set my boy back for the rest of the walk depending on the intensity and size of the dog running at us.

Carry treats with you all the time and/or a toy he loves, make coming back to you an instant reward. If he has to choose between going to you when you call (no reward) or going to another dog (potential rewards) the other dog is going to win all the time. You gotta make yourself far more fun to go over to than another dog he meets. You want to catch him BEFORE he makes moves to go near another dog, the moment he glances at another dog in the distance is your time to jump to your treats or toy.

sillysmiles

When we got our dog, he pulled really badly too. I spent a lot of time standing in the road waiting for him to stop pulling and come back to me before we would start walking again. Once he got OK with that, I then put him on a retractable lead because I didn't trust his off lead recall and it gave him the opportunity to sniff and explore with having to worry about it.

We've had him a year not and the pulling only happens when he is bursting for a poo (I think he is rapidly trying to find the right spot). He is also now at the stage where he is good off lead. He is still a bit of an unknown with other dogs because he doesn't see that many other dogs on our walks.

Good luck with it, you'll get there.

pH

frash wrote: »

Outside can be a different story.
He pulls hard on the lead (especially when he sees another dog) but we're trying out a harness now that is helping.
Off the lead he'll come back when called (mostly) but is constantly running up to other dogs - some he'll just sniff & move on but others he'll bark at and growl (no teeth or snapping though). Is there any way to get him to just sniff & move on or does this just come seeing other dogs more often?

the problem here is that it's hard to find the right training conditions and as individual, these behaviours can be hard to train without access to other patient dog owners. It's my experience that just meeting other dogs on walks won't make them more used to them or change their behaviour much, and it can be hard to make meeting random strangers on walks into training sessions. If you watch professionals do this they will have a number of dogs available to be introduced, where the dog can be positively reinforced for the correct behaviour.

Unless you can get 3 or 4 dog-owning friends together in a quiet space for an hour 4 or 5 times, I'd suggest not attempting to do this yourself but join any dog training group where it could be addressed easily and efficiently.

frash

pH wrote: »

Unless you can get 3 or 4 dog-owning friends together in a quiet space for an hour 4 or 5 times, I'd suggest not attempting to do this yourself but join any dog training group where it could be addressed easily and efficiently.

Thanks for that - he's booked in for a 'loose lead' training course on Saturday.
Hopefully they'll have some insight.

I think he has taken on a 'protector' role. He probably thinks he's doing the right thing but it's not what we want.

3dogs

look up Kikopup on YouTube

she has some incredible videos to teach your dog all sorts of things, all done really positively and with the dogs best interests to the forefront

pH

3dogs wrote: »

look up Kikopup on YouTube

she has some incredible videos to teach your dog all sorts of things, all done really positively and with the dogs best interests to the forefront

she's great - I'd absolutely recommend getting a clicker and learning about clicker training - it's so much fun for both human and dog, and the results are spectacular - and did I mention it's fun (and quite easy)

aonb

just a question/comment.
Met my very nice neighbour this a.m - farmers wife - always has a sheep dog - for the sheep. Their elderly sheepdog ('traditional' long haired collie) died recently so they have a lovely new young dog in training.
Anyway, the breeder (local) wont train the dogs to work, only trains the owners (sounds sensible!) - the farmer is in training! So the wife of the farmer walks the young dog every day. She had a rolled up fertilizer bag - tied at intervals with string - to make a soft stick shape. The breeder suggested she walk the dog with this 'stick' in her hand while she held the dog on the leash in the other hand. Using the 'stick' to bop him on the shoulder when he pulls... She thinks this is brilliant - it works fantastically - zero pulling (hes a large, big-boned dog). Obviously its more 'noise' when hes tapped with this thing - i.e. does not hurt in any way. Any comments on this technique? (just to clarify, shes a lovely woman - loves her dogs - no question of roughness or harshness at all)

ihatewinter

Yeah it's fine. Once the dog feels no pain then no problem. I once witnessed two sheepdogs harnessed together, both wearing harnesses and then tied together with rope. Then the farmers had some sort of weed strimmer harness on and they were tied to him. This was his way of training the younger dog as the old dog was too old to take the pulling of the younger dog. The older dog led the younger one around the field with the farmer running behind them. Funnily enough the dog was actually trained and is now herding. I think it was to make the younger dog go around them instead of spliting the sheep in 2

Cherry Blossom

aonb wrote: »

The breeder suggested she walk the dog with this 'stick' in her hand while she held the dog on the leash in the other hand. Using the 'stick' to bop him on the shoulder when he pulls... She thinks this is brilliant - it works fantastically - zero pulling (hes a large, big-boned dog). Obviously its more 'noise' when hes tapped with this thing - i.e. does not hurt in any way. Any comments on this technique? (just to clarify, shes a lovely woman - loves her dogs - no question of roughness or harshness at all)

To me this is an aversive technique and not something I would personally use. With my terrier I would worry about the potential for her to become snappy and there could be a problem if a child approached her with an object in their hand and she predicted getting tapped with it. My Sheltie is very sensitive and would not be happy at all with an aversive tool. He would cower away from it and I would worry that using such a technique would have an overall negative affect on how he interacts with people.

aonb

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

To me this is an aversive technique and not something I would personally use. With my terrier I would worry about the potential for her to become snappy and there could be a problem if a child approached her with an object in their hand and she predicted getting tapped with it. My Sheltie is very sensitive and would not be happy at all with an aversive tool. He would cower away from it and I would worry that using such a technique would have an overall negative affect on how he interacts with people.

yes, this is what Im wondering too.
Seems a shame - lovely gentle dog. But typical nervous collie. Owner is doing her best by him too, but was wondering whether its not a good idea. She couldnt walk him for miles with him pulling, so shes v.happy with the solution. The dog seemed very happy and was pretty much oblivious - not totally - to her holding the bag/stick while we chatted

flogen

Thanks for all of this, folks.

We're almost two weeks in and already seeing progress - he's still jumping on the couch and counters but it's less frequent and he gets down fairly quickly once told!

In the last few days we've started to give him treats when he's good (sitting on his bed, sitting on command, coming when called etc) and it seems to be giving us good results.

I've not considered clicker training but might give it a look if the current approach doesn't work.

The one thing that's hanging around most is him barking when we're eating in front of him - which happens whether he's just eaten or not. Some days it doesn't happen at all, others he's non-stop at it, but I'm hoping it'll dwindle as time goes on.

In the mean time I'm not sure whether it's best to ignore him, chastise him verbally or remove him from the room completely when it does happen - so if anyone knows the best approach in that regard I'm all ears!

cocker5

flogen wrote: »

Thanks for all of this, folks.

We're almost two weeks in and already seeing progress - he's still jumping on the couch and counters but it's less frequent and he gets down fairly quickly once told!

In the last few days we've started to give him treats when he's good (sitting on his bed, sitting on command, coming when called etc) and it seems to be giving us good results.

I've not considered clicker training but might give it a look if the current approach doesn't work.

The one thing that's hanging around most is him barking when we're eating in front of him - which happens whether he's just eaten or not. Some days it doesn't happen at all, others he's non-stop at it, but I'm hoping it'll dwindle as time goes on.

In the mean time I'm not sure whether it's best to ignore him, chastise him verbally or remove him from the room completely when it does happen - so if anyone knows the best approach in that regard I'm all ears!

Well done on your progress so far :pac:

When your eating do you put him in to his bed?
You should maybe get him a chew toy or a stuffed kong (with pate they cant resist) pop him into his bed with the kong.

each time he gets up to come over, put him back to bed etc...

Hatcho

flogen wrote: »

Thanks for all of this, folks.

The one thing that's hanging around most is him barking when we're eating in front of him - which happens whether he's just eaten or not. Some days it doesn't happen at all, others he's non-stop at it, but I'm hoping it'll dwindle as time goes on.

In the mean time I'm not sure whether it's best to ignore him, chastise him verbally or remove him from the room completely when it does happen - so if anyone knows the best approach in that regard I'm all ears!

Great to hear you're making good progress! WRT to the barking I think chastising him will possibly prolong the behaviour. Getting your attention and evoking a response from you is exactly what he wants. And being a smart dog, when he gets what he wants - he's bound to do it again and again. I would try calmly saying 'to bad' (or whatever phrase you choose) and giving him 30 sec 'time outs' each time he barks. Just remove him from the room each time it happens. You are still responding to him, but he's also learning that there's a consequence (the time out) when he barks at you.

Best of luck with it and well done on the progress so far...

Choc Chip

cocker5 wrote: »

Well done on your progress so far :pac:

When your eating do you put him in to his bed?
You should maybe get him a chew toy or a stuffed kong (with pate they cant resist) pop him into his bed with the kong.

each time he gets up to come over, put him back to bed etc...

This worked wonder for us OP. My partner thought I was mad hopping up and down to put the dog back to her bed 20 times while eating a meal but the repetition paid off in the end. Now she goes there automatically when we sit down to eat and it's lovely being able to eat without a dog staring at my dinner (she's a big dog - her nose would be at table height if I'd let it go on! )

pH

Choc Chip wrote: »

This worked wonder for us OP. My partner thought I was mad hopping up and down to put the dog back to her bed 20 times while eating a meal but the repetition paid off in the end. Now she goes there automatically when we sit down to eat and it's lovely being able to eat without a dog staring at my dinner (she's a big dog - her nose would be at table height if I'd let it go on! )

Exactly - this is what most folks never get with dog training - it will take maybe a week of getting up and correcting the dogs behaviour when eating - and this seems like a right pain in the ass - but it will correct a lifetime of the dog's behaviour.

The problem is when you're eating your warm dinner it doesn't seem to be the right time to fix it - another option is to setup fake dinners with realistic smelling food, which are just training sessions so its more convenient than trying to do this when the food's getting cold and everyone's hungry.