MORE crap on the way.

Grizzly 45

NOT good at all! Finland one of the staunch pro gun countries has apprently folded and cant/wont support pro changes. The Dutch are Hell bent in getting this rammed thru while they still have the presidency as Slovakia is taking over in July 1st.This inow serious make or break time people. You need to be onto your TDs to get onto our MEPs about this.

//www.all4shooters.com/en/Shooting/law/EU-gun-ban-council-presidency-commission-update/

Grizzly 45

https://ukshootingnews.wordpress.com/2016/06/10/action-this-day-eu-bureaucrats-try-to-sneak-in-semi-auto-gun-and-magazine-bans/

Trying to sneak..They have offically stated this will happen to us all.This WILL happen in the next 3weeks if we do not get off our assses and start lobbying.Even FACE has been taken aback by the ferocity of this.

grassroot1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

https://ukshootingnews.wordpress.com/2016/06/10/action-this-day-eu-bureaucrats-try-to-sneak-in-semi-auto-gun-and-magazine-bans/

Trying to sneak..They have offically stated this will happen to us all.This WILL happen in the next 3weeks if we do not get off our assses and start lobbying.Even FACE has been taken aback by the ferocity of this.

Have you been talking to someone in FACE?

Grizzly 45

Nope just read their statements on it from about 6 hours ago GR.

Filippo Segaton the secretary-general of the European Federation of Associations for Hunting & Conservation (FACE), said, “It was easy for the European Commission to exploit the emotional wave in the aftermath of the Paris terrorist attacks. The European Parliament criticised the absence of an impact assessment understanding that the Commission’s proposal was not justified in many parts and would have a disproportionate impact on hunters. Everyone agrees now that many of the proposals will affect the legitimate expectations of legal owners of firearms such as hunters, with no consequences on terrorists and criminals who obtain their weapons on the black market. In the end mystified European citizens will once more have to pay the bill for the increased administrative costs and compensation for those firearms that will become illegal in the new directive.”

http://www.euractiv.com/section/justice-home-affairs/news/eu-to-tighten-guns-rules-despite-concern-it-will-restrict-hunters-collectors/

grassroot1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Nope just read their statements on it from about 6 hours ago
Thanks Grizzly I normally get an email re FACE but nothing yet anyway.

Grizzly 45

Her highness Francis Fitzgerald palling with the the anti gun Dutch Orange dictator of the EU! Wonder did she even read or know what she is approving there today??:mad:

Steve012

One word..... Bugger,

"As it is obvious to you all" How many f*cking hurdles and hoops we've been jumping through for the last god knows how many years. I feel like going down to my local G Station and just saying here take the f*cking things then...

Its like playing golf and you lose sight of the ball. In this case the ball may never be found, its been banned..

I've had my eye on a nice 9mm carbine, whats the point in spending any more money on my sport. If we don't even get compensated.

Yes yes Isis and criminals are very bad D'duh ... How the F*ck can we fall into any category related to those scum, I shouldn't say it.. but in the old days "sorry travellers" worst thing could happen is a pikey nicking a farmers shot gun.

What are Isis going to break in now and stroke our very well secured firearms!?!? Or the local gangster looking for your collection of .22's
Figures dont add up. Disarm the decent sport shooting folk, with their ak's and m16's which we dont have just just in the off chance their house gets broken into, or someone slipped through the pulse check and goes on an USA style shooting spree..

Any one up for badminton instead

Grizzly 45

That was a battle lost.The war isnt over yet..And its looking good..again. The comissions proposals were thrown back as being unworkable ,costly and draconian by the comittee meeting yesterday.[14th]

https://www.theparliamentmagazine.eu/articles/news/parliament-slams-commissions-unworkable-gun-law-proposals

This is not over by a long shot.The Czech presidency[pro gun] will be of help next month when it gets to parliment debate. Against us is proably Brexit,we will proably lose Vicky Ford who is invaluable as rapoteur and on our side,and no doubt will be replaced by some comission appointed anti gun zealot. It is reckoned this could go onto Nov 22nd of this year if it isnt dumped or no agreement can be found.
As for compensation. The Eu court will be flooded by class actions[They allow them on EU level] by organisations under article 84 and eight of the EU constitution and we re talking PIIGS defict sums here for compo.
There is a break until next month.in this point we should be doing the following.
Get people to sign the change.org petition 1739 from Ireland.We can do more.

Lobby our TDs and MEPS,and also people who are intrested in our history,because remember Museuems are also under serious threat here as well.so if you want to see Devs Mauser and Mick Collins revolver being chucked in a scrap baler one day..Do and say nothing.

On a point to get the TDs moving point out to them that last friday[June 10th] Francisis Fitzgerald signed wittingly or unwittingly the EU comission on this ban and by doing so she has potentially undone at an EU level what we have fought hard to keep on a national level over the last 18 months!!
It is amazing on how much ignorance there is of wTF is going on on an EU level by our politicans.The Chairman of the comission David Stanton admitted he is unaware of developments on an EU level on this matter..We need to get them woken up FAST folks.

Meantime.Keep Calm,buy and get whatever you want in guns and carry on shooting.

BattleCorp

Against us is proably Brexit,we will proably lose Vicky Ford who is invaluable as rapoteur and on our side,and no doubt will be replaced.

If Britain pull out of the European Union, there is a two year period before they leave.

gunny123

If the EU want something, then our bunch of gombeens will rubber stamp it. The EU super quango is too rich a supply of handy overpaid jobs for washed up td's to upset. Phil Hogan etc etc. If the EU said ALL guns banned in the morning, the dail would fall over themselves to comply and get a pat on the head from Merkel.

yubabill1

Yaay.
go, Brexit.
The EU neoliberal quangocrats are scrambling in disbelief.

That arch neoliberal progressive, Martin Schulz, is espousing MORE Europe as a solution to the questions posed by Brexit......says the EU needs to consider more supports for the disadvantaged: They don't want support, they want jobs, houses and school places in return for their social contributions, not dole or public art.

IOW they want responsibility, not patronisation.

Let's hope the kick in the ass extends to MEP's attitude to the firearms directive.

yubabill1

OK, here I am banging on about Brexit again.


Might be of interest to anyone listening to Irish radio this morning, expecting an explainer of how the liberal UK luvvies in media land and Westminster failed to sway working-class people (the luvvies in Ireland are equally perplexed).

Well, Brexit may have a marginal effect on the proposed firearms directive, insofar as MEP's attitudes may become either more accommodating to voters, or less so if EU integrationist voices dominate the post-Brexit EU attitude.

A decent article in today's Sunday Times by att Campbell and Bojan Pancevski (behind a paywall, on p17 hard copy) uncovers the thinking in EUland this morning:

Hollande and France are behind this directive to ban and restrict firearms, but the article says he is deeply unpopular, that the EU is more unpopular in France and Holland than in the UK and that Hollande is pushing hard for closer political integration of the Euro currency countries to strengthen the EU.

However, the article mentions that Hollande's neighbours do not expect him to be re-elected next year and regard him as a lame duck. On top of this, Angela Merkel is seen to have insulted Hollande last Monday, when she invited Nikolas Sarkozy (expected to be re-elected french president next year) to dinner.

Interestingly, Merkel is not calling for more integration but for pragmatism wrt Brexit and Sarkozy is pushing for returning certain powers to national governments, leaving Brussels to dominate only a few areas of economic activity, including agriculture.

Hollande is a Socialist - they like big government (involved in everything you do);
Sarkozy is a Centre-Right politician (less government, deregulation of markets).

What caused Brexit is another argument, but if you felt the cold winds since 2008, you will understand.

I'm hoping MEP's will pay more attention to tax-paying voters from this and less attention to activists and media types, who have had more than enough to say for themselves. Hopefully, this new attention focus will extend to shooters who rarely have a voice and when they do, that voice is cynically distorted - just like the voice of the Leave voters is being sneered-at and "I-told-you-so'ed" right now in mainstream UK media.

BTW, the economic doom of FTSE and Sterling falls has been exaggerated over the weekend; the FTSE100 is actually UP on it's level a week ago and Sterling remains within its normal range, the fall coming from a speculation-driven high.

Sterling will probably fall another 10% and the London housing bubble has been deflating for over a year, but the UK economy has been managed responsibly since 2008/9 and the underlying stuff is strong, if not perfect - so a rocky ride, but I reckon they'll be alright.

Sparks

yubabill1 wrote: »

OK, here I am banging on about Brexit again.

Could you stop? The politics forum is over there and the value of sterling is definitely more suited to there than here. The luvvies-vs-navvies conversation too...

Grizzly 45

On somthing" positive???"Farange was on a radio show yesterday saying the UK handgun ban is ridicilous and that he would like to see it repealed.
More hot air from someone reneging on his promises for Brexit already or possibly some grain of truth?

yubabill1

Sparks wrote: »

Could you stop? The politics forum is over there and the value of sterling is definitely more suited to there than here. The luvvies-vs-navvies conversation too...

Point taken.

Buried in the rant above is the point that the influence of Hollande - the guy behind this firearms directive- is on the wane and Representatives will have to listen more closely to the grass roots after this blow to the EU, so hopefully this is good for shooters.

Over and out.

Cass

Not that they did not already know it, but at least they've admitted where the problem lies.

Commission on Semi Auto firearms.

Grizzly 45

Kiss your M1 carbines with any sort of M2 parts in them adios then,courtsey of this .Or any kind of rifle that has a select fire counterpart.
This will affect the Swiss resrevists who once military conscription is finished ,have the option of having their select fire rifle converted permantly to semi auto as a keepsake and thanks from their govt.
Will kill off a now resurging German busisness of reconverting legally held deacts of classics like Thompsons,stens, FG42s, Mp44s and even Vietnam era M16s and old Colt Commandos back to semi auto only.

From two countries that prides themselves in their arms and precision industries and have actually got people in their police firearms labotories that do know what they are talking about and are addressed as Herr Doktor or Herr Professor when it comes to firearms and the feasability of converting deacts or civillian semi autos to full auto with normal house hold tools.Do you think they might know abit more than some screwball Brussells politican on this matter?

Going to piss off alot of Czech gun owners who have started out on demilled Czech type 56s which can be got for about 150 euros compared to 650 euros for the utter civillian built from new in the CZ plant type 56.

< MOD SNIP >

Its a good point and position ,but it could be researched better,and if deact standards can be harmonised EU wise whats to stop demilled select fire guns from being converted to an EU accepted standard??

Cass

The problem i was referring to was that fully auto, already banned, firearms are the problem. They have also said a ban on semi autos will not solve a thing.

The issue with full auto being converted to semi auto is a battle for another day (and before you take umbrage with that i'm not suggesting to disregard it because it doesn't affect me), but for those that are targeted for having a standard semi auto firearm, straight from the factory, have a glimmer of hope.

Next time you want to comment on a specific person, Indian name or not, just don't. You know why, so don't.

yubabill1

Like everyone else here, I've a pain in my a*** writing to politicians and bureaucrats this last long while, but I've got one more to write before this is debated soon.
The only consolation is that writing to them seems to work.

Grizzly 45

On the above point. an intresting post from Firearms United France on the FACE statement.Apart from the sketchy translation from French it is intresting to note whats missing from the FACE EU statement.....[Emphasis and under lining mine]


Press Release from the face!
The Semi-automatic weapons are not particularly dangerous, admits the commission
In replying to a parliamentary question, the commissioner elżbieta bieńkowska acknowledged that the only semi-automatic weapons who pose a threat to the security are the automatic weapons turn into semi-automatic weapons, because of the possibility for criminals to convert them in Automatic Weapons.
On 4 July 2016, Brussels - during the discussion on the revision of the directive firearms, the European commission has clarified the fact that security is threatened by the automatic weapons insufficiently converted into semi-automatic weapons.
In its reply to the mep jiří maštálka (gue / NGL), the commission explained that she had " conducted a thorough assessment of the directive weapons in 2014 [...] The study has highlighted the fact that some semi-automatic weapons, in particular the automatic weapons turned into semi-automatic weapons, are especially dangerous because they are weapons that can be easily transformed into military weapons. "
The face welcome this clarification in noting that the weapons of shoulder semi-Automatics are frequently used by hunters and marksmen and that their criminalization would represent a measure unjustified without no effect in terms of safety, since the terrorists and criminals procure their Weapons from the illegal market. In a context of terrorist attacks and the general concern for the safety of the citizens, the face note that in spite of the studies cited by the commission, no impact assessment has been presented by the European commission to justify the proposed measures.
"the commission itself has identified the risk of automatic weapons incorrectly translated" commented filippo segato, Secretary-General of the face. " the legal vacuum is represented by these military weapons which are converted in a way that allows their re-modification by criminals and terrorists for the operation automatic. This problem can be solved by avoiding the introduction on the arms market incorrectly modified, not stigmatising semi-automatic weapons of origin made for hunting and the shooting. "
The face welcomes so the amendments proposed by the rapporteur of the directive, Mrs. Vicky Ford aimed at addressing this anomaly and replace the semi-automatic rifles in the category of weapons allowed. In addition, Mrs. Ford has wisely proposed to solve the problem of automatic weapons incorrectly converted by submitting an amendment that would make these conversions irreversible following a strict technical regulations.Why was this left out of the FACE UK statement?
The face defends the weapons of semi-automatic by explaining that the prohibition of certain sub-categories of semi-automatic weapons legally held on the grounds that they would be "more dangerous" than others, is not supported on any statistics. With the amendments proposed in connection with the neutralization and the conversion of weapons (which were reactivated / transformed into automatic weapons by criminals and used in the terrorist attacks), the voids in the current legal framework were treated properly. Additional bans would serve no purpose of security but restrict only and without need some hunters and marksmen.
http://www.face.eu/…/pr_commission_admits_semiautos_not_dan…;


And the FACE UK statement to compare

When I can find a copy I'll post it.



And Rapotuer Vicky Fords statement
have received many emails and messages about the status of the Firearms legislation. I met the shadow rapporteurs last week and have circulated new draft compromises to them. These represent the variety of views which have been expressed by the democratically elected MEPs who represent the political groups and these compromises continue to be under discussion. They neither represent the final view of the IMCO Committee or European Parliament, nor represent the final text of any forthcoming legislation.

As rapporteur I have a duty to work with my colleagues to best represent the broad spectrum of views, and have consistently said that any restriction on firearms should be the subject of a clear and specific vote in the Parliament.

It is proposed that IMCO MEPs will vote on the proposition of the Council to restrict authorisation of semi-automatic firearms (and, where relevant, magazines) with a capacity of 21 rounds or 11 rounds. There will be a specific vote on this part of the text. MEPs will also vote on a proposed exemption for Member States to allow sports shooters to hold higher capacity firearms where they participate in shooting at a nationally recognised club. There will also be a vote on whether existing owners of semi-automatics which have been converted from automatics can continue to hold their firearms and pass them on through inheritance.

Political discussions are continuing, and it is not clear where the majority lies in the European Parliament. That is why my proposal is to put these proposals to a vote, following a transparent and democratic process to determine the shape of future restrictions, if any.

I have received helpful technical points for example on collectors of ammunition, on loading & handloading these are being included in compromises.

Votes are scheduled for 13 July.

So who do we belive as to whats going on here?

yubabill1

Who to believe? The perennial question with politicians- just look at the recent referendum debate across the water.

You're always going to get spin, depending on whose mouth is moving ( it's FACE elements here, but they count as lobbyists in this debate, so might as well be politicians).

I'd imagine what Marian Harkin outlined is pretty much the truth and all the above points will be discussed and considered for the vote, which will probably have numerous amendments.

Grizzly 45

Having had a chat with the DOJ contact this AM,RE the Irish govt position on the proposed EU legislation and things. Generally said there is no offical position on this and the the Irish govt is not too worried that it will affect us much as we already have ther legislation in place,bar the SA rifle situation and then it isnt too much of a problem according to the PTB as they are quite happy with "grand fathering["a la the CF handguns] the numbers already out there under the new proposed national legislation from last year which they have been busy on behind the scenes..IOW this tempoary cap malarkey is what it is ...malarkey to keep anyone for applying for one at the moment. Asked how can they enforce such a tempoary cap at the moment with no legislation or Dail act the response is "legislation alawys follows proposals" [Somthing we should have copped by now as Irish citizens]. Of course ,no times or dates on this .But take it as a now a blip on your radar .

Soo if you are considering a modern sporting rifle in your life..NOW might be a very good time to start actualising your plans.Irrespective on how the EU pans out on this over the next few days.

Rimfire Shooter

Aren't any granted after the date the cap was enacted liable to be revoked if or when an actual "ban" comes in?

Grizzly 45

Proably,but as yet there is no cap,tempoary or otherwise or instructions to do anything about this from the Dept or minister.It is still open for you to apply and aquire.AT the moment.The legislation is still being worked on and it wont apply to those with already issued liscenses.Thing is,we have no idea of WHEN it will see light of day, next month,five months,next year who knows.So maybe better to get it in now rather than never get the chance to get one again.
IOW you snooze ,you loose.

Rimfire Shooter

Looks like I'm wrong so as I thought the cap was already in place.

Bad_alibi

Rimfire Shooter wrote: »

Looks like I'm wrong so as I thought the cap was already in place.

As does most of the shooting public. You don't need laws when a simple bit of misinformation will do.

Cass

As i understand it, temporary caps are illegal. Any ban/cap must be based on law. As there are no laws to support such a ban then there is no cap.

The Minister can make a statement in the Dail declaring her intent to impose restrictions or a ban on certain firearms. Any new legislation will then be retrospectively applied to the date she made the statement in the Dail. Exactly what happened with C/F pistols.

Rimfire Shooter

Cass wrote: »

The Minister can make a statement in the Dail declaring her intent to impose restrictions or a ban on certain firearms. Any new legislation will then be retrospectively applied to the date she made the statement in the Dail. Exactly what happened with C/F pistols.

That's what I was thinking of but made a hames of it.

She has made such a statement re semi auto full bore rifles so therefore getting one now wouldn't mean I can grand father it. or am I still wrong?

I thought retrospectively applying legislation wasn't possible?

Cass

You're not wrong.

There is no temporary cap on these firearms. There cannot be one as it's illegal.

However if you buy one now, and the Minister does impose a grandfathering/banning of them then it will apply retrospectively to the date she made the statement.

When pistols had this the statement was made in November 2008, but the legislation was not brought in till June 2009. Still anyone that bought one between November 2008 and June 2009 lost it. Most, if not all, people did not buy one so in effect a temporary cap/ban was imposed, but not legally, and not by the Minister. It was self imposed by people not wanting to "waste" money on a gun they would not be able to keep.

Rimfire Shooter

Thanks Cass now it makes sense.

What else is possibly going to go the same road. I will get one NOW before I get caught again!