MORE crap on the way.

yubabill1

Saddened to hear the latest sh1t .

Working on letters now.

Can someone remind me whether shooting comps discriminate on ability/gender?

tac foley

Yes to both.

Men shoot in mens' competitions, and women in womens'.

Ability is sorted out by having those that shoot best called the 'winners', and those that don't called 'losers'. This is the basis of all competitive participatory sports, and always has been, else they would not be called 'competitions'.

I thought that you knew all this already? :O

tac

yubabill1

tac foley wrote: »

Yes to both.

Men shoot in mens' competitions, and women in womens'.

Ability is sorted out by having those that shoot best called the 'winners', and those that don't called 'losers'. This is the basis of all competitive participatory sports, and always has been, else they would not be called 'competitions'.

I thought that you knew all this already? :O

tac

Nice one, Tac.

I've been inhabiting my multicultural inclusive safe space trying to win over MEP's opinions, so the concept of winners and losers, being so offensive to my snowflake little mind entirely refused to come to me.

Any comps where all comers welcome? Seriously - trying to justify semi autos for comps wrt reduced recoil, enhanced operability.

yubabill1

Ok, I sent my emails saying s/a is first choice for small stature and disabled shooters and they allow diverse shooters compete on an equal basis, among other things. Kept it all short.

Marian Harkin fired back quick acknowledgement immediately. Fair play.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

There is nothing most MEPs like more than a nice piece of gesture politics in response to public concern - whether or not their gesture has any practical effect.

Very much like the recent attacks in Ohio and the immediate call to ban firearms and repeal the second amendment. Never mind it was a vehicle and knife used, i mean why let the facts cloud the story. :eek::rolleyes:

tac foley

You will all note, I hope, that a campus police officer with a GUN quickly stopped this POS right in his own footprints and undoubtedly saved lives by doing it.

tac

Grizzly 45

tac foley wrote: »

Yes to both.

Men shoot in mens' competitions, and women in womens'.

Ability is sorted out by having those that shoot best called the 'winners', and those that don't called 'losers'. This is the basis of all competitive participatory sports, and always has been, else they would not be called 'competitions'.

I thought that you knew all this already? :O

tac

Ah well,we must now no doubt have to include participation certs and medals in here as well to make sure any snow flakes arent triggered:rolleyes:

That was kind of a shock for one of our pro Femmi equality senators[Zappone] in the Dail hearings last year to hear that both men and women compete in the same competitions here and that we have some exellent lady gunners in our midst.Suppose she thought we were still some ol sexist bunch of golf players who dont allow the girls into the members bar...If we had such a thing in the first place.:D

Grizzly 45

tac foley wrote: »

You will all note, I hope, that a campus police officer with a GUN quickly stopped this POS right in his own footprints and undoubtedly saved lives by doing it.

tac

Think it went somthing like this in Ohio?:)

tac foley

True for many shooting disciplines, including gallery comps, skeet, trap, clays in general and so on, as well as centre-fire target rifle and F-Class.

Perhaps you'd be kind enough to list them all for any members of your government still in any doubt.

It's also good to point out that many people with disabilities are able to compete on a level playing field, so to speak. Our recently constructed range facilities have dedicated vehicle parking hardstands and long, gentle ramps to accommodate self-powered or electric wheelchair and mobility scooters. Only sight-impaired shooters [of either sex] require any special equipment in order to enjoy their shooting sport.

tac

yubabill1

Thanks, Tac

I'm not a club shooter, but was vaguely aware of this type of competition
.

This is what I sent to Marian Harkin, the other MEP's got something very similar;

A Chara

Thank you for your ongoing support in respect of the above.

The recent terrorist attacks in Europe and other countries are atrocities and are condemned by all firearms enthusiasts.

You will know that proposals to amend the above Firearms Directive were proposed in the immediate aftermath of the Nov 15 Paris atrocities with the express intent of addressing terrorist activities.

This aim has since been removed from the proposal, but the intent to ban semi automatic firearms from civilian ownership has remained.

Bolt action rifles were designed in the 19th century and pre-date the internal combustion engine, the lightbulb and even mains electricity.

Semi automatic rifles have springs and energy-absorbers which reduce the force of recoil the shooter experiences and this, combined with the easier operating mechanism, make them the first choice for physically challenged or smaller stature shooters.

It may be interesting to note that my local shooting club regularly hold open competitions where male, female, able and disabled competitors compete on an equal footing.

Writing as an individual, I ask you to consider that this amendment was introduced as a measure to combat terrorism and to measure the effect of;

(i)these proposals as currently written to that end

(ii) the lack of impact assessment from the proposers

(iii)the perception that the EU Commission can bully elected MEP's - as Mr. Juncker asks that EU members refrain from membership referenda www.euronews.com/2016/11/26/global-conversation-exclusive-interview-with-european-commission-president-jean


(iv)restricting diverse participants in the future to an uneven playing field.

I would like to remind you that there are an estimated 50 million licensed firearms holders in the EU and they are likely ordinary, sensible rural people you have met in everyday life rather than the stereotypes seen in the media or painted in these proposals (proposals which have unashamedly provided false and misleading information).

I have worked very hard to keep this communication short, as I presume you receive a lot of mail on diverse subjects.

Sincerely

tac foley

Although you have sent the letter now, it might have been a good point to make that in EVERY country where firearms are permitted to the citizen, there is a rigorous and often intrusive examination of the character of the person making the application. Numerous referees are often needed to vouch for their good character and suitability to be granted permission to own a firearm, and in some countries the applicant is required to permit the police to have access to his or her private medical records in necessary.

To my knowledge, no other sport on earth requires this degree of proof that you are a worthy and law-abiding [and often, a HEALTHY person with no 'bad health habits' like alcoholism, drug-taking et al] person, and having been granted this permission, you can rightly stand up and say 'The Chief of Police, using his or her authority from the Minister of Justice [or whatever] says that I'm a fit person to have a firearm'. There are no exceptions to these strictures.

tac

yubabill1

tac foley wrote: »

Although you have sent the letter now, it might have been a good point to make that in EVERY country where firearms are permitted to the citizen, there is a rigorous and often intrusive examination of the character of the person making the application. Numerous referees are often needed to vouch for their good character and suitability to be granted permission to own a firearm, and in some countries the applicant is required to permit the police to have access to his or her private medical records in necessary.

To my knowledge, no other sport on earth requires this degree of proof that you are a worthy and law-abiding [and often, a HEALTHY person with no 'bad health habits' like alcoholism, drug-taking et al] person, and having been granted this permission, you can rightly stand up and say 'The Chief of Police, using his or her authority from the Minister of Justice [or whatever] says that I'm a fit person to have a firearm'. There are no exceptions to these strictures.

tac

Absolutely, have mentioned this in previous.

Wanted to make this one short and pointy like a spontoon.

Cass

I've moved the Olympic stuff to it's own thread already running in the target forum.

The decision to drop certain disciplines was made by the ISSF and has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

yubabill1

Got a reply from Mairead McGuinness' secretary saying she will bring it to Mairead's attention.

Grizzly 45

Well the triloge MEPs didn't get to bed before 3AM this morning.:D
It seems there was NO agreement or compromise on points like deactivation or classification. Despite Viky Ford[rapatouer] pushing for any sort of compromises the Czech MEP Dita Charanzova dug in and held fast..As she said herself "Compromise is always possible,but not at any price.."

So end effect is the triloge is stalled at the moment and if the EU comission is narky,[they were pissed off last night apprently] their plans of wrapping this up before the Xmas recess are looking bad.This is also good news for us ,as it means if these triloges cant find any compromises ,the whole project falls apart and doesn't make it to the EU parliment to be voted on. This has happened only once sofar in the entire EU history,so its a long shot,but better than no shot.
To be continued..No doubt!
http://www.politico.eu/article/commission-threatens-to-derail-gun-law-deal/?utm_content=buffer59c01&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

yubabill1

I'm hoping, now that Hollande recognises he has too little support to run for re-election (the first French leader since WWII not to be selected to contest a second term) that the wind will fall from the sails of this, his pet Directive; which, presumably he was going to wave in front of the voters to show he is tough on terror.

Would explain the urgency, in part, why they wanted this directive to pass before 2017.

gunny123

yubabill1 wrote: »

I'm hoping, now that Hollande recognises he has too little support to run for re-election (the first French leader since WWII not to be selected to contest a second term) that the wind will fall from the sails of this, his pet Directive; which, presumably he was going to wave in front of the voters to show he is tough on terror.

Would explain the urgency, in part, why they wanted this directive to pass before 2017.

France is increasingly leaning to the right, and it will be interesting to see what happens in Italy after the failed referendum the other day. While hofer (a shooting enthusiast) failed in austria, his party is still extremely popular. I wouldn't be surprised if the EU super quango falls apart like a chinese moped.

yubabill1

gunny123 wrote: »

France is increasingly leaning to the right, and it will be interesting to see what happens in Italy after the failed referendum the other day. While hofer (a shooting enthusiast) failed in austria, his party is still extremely popular. I wouldn't be surprised if the EU super quango falls apart like a chinese moped.

I'm becoming more skeptical about the EU disintegrating:

The arch-Socialists Schulz and Hollande have gone (well, 2017 for Hollande, but he is regarded as a dead duck in EU circles now);

Angela Merkel has lurched to the Right, now that she is seeking re-election and is calling for a burka ban in Germany;

even that liberal utopia, Sweden (the only country to have taken in more new arrivals than Ireland) is having second thoughts on its open borders policy;

the markets seem to have priced-in Italy's rejection of Renzi's referendum and we did not see any bank crashes, despite scary fundamentals.

The politicians are cute enough to see the writing on the wall (it has to be translated into a Ladybird book for our geniuses, so it will take a while).

gunny123

Well the "united states of europe" is gone i reckon, no one apart from germany wanted it.

Grizzly 45

Dont think even Germany as a nation wanted that EUSSR either.It is a select few elite backed by the 1% richest fammlies on the planet who control 99% of the planets money who called the shots on this project,and where convient over ride their own EU rules...Anyone remember a pan EU referendum to allow the GDR into the EU and integrate a working[albeit socialist dump] state into West Germany....???Me neither.A deal between Kohl and Mitterand.integration for the Euro currency..Closer to home Lisbon and Masstricht ring any bells?

Be that as it may...French gun owners have now gone from frying pan into the fire.From a French pro gunner

Hollande decided (or rather was pushed) not to represent himself for a second failure. So his prime minister Manuel Valls decided to present himself as a candidate to presidency and he resigned as prime minister. His replacement is Bernard Cazeneuve, previously minister of Interior and the replacement to Cazeneuve is
Bruno Le Roux, the most anti-gun socialist MP, author of several propositions of law for a complete ban of firearms, and also co-author of the current law.
We prepare ourselves to 5 months of difficulties and it already began with the announcement today of the ban of all full-auto belt-fed machine guns converted to semi-auto, like MG42s and equivalent, that are currently in category B, authorized only to licenced sport shooters.

Yeah you can own converted SA LMGs in France, but not when anti gun clowns like this get into power.

gunny123

I didn't know how bad things had gone in sweden until i was reading a bit about it earlier in the year. If i was a swede, i would be seriously unhappy, and looking to bail.

The problem with the pinko/greeny lot europe wide, is they are all anti-gun and anti-hunting. Who the hell votes green anyway ? The usual bearded and be-sandaled upper middle class academic types ?

onetimecypher

EUROPEAN FIREARMS BAN
After an overnight debate that broke up acrimoniously, the following points have arisen,
1) Parliament and Commission were pi**ed off that neither of their proposals
of
a) IDONTLIKETHELOOKOFTHAT
b) all AK's/AR's/and/or derivatives be banned
WERE ALLOWED, and they threw their toys out of the pram, at not
getting their way, while Slovakia rules, and hated that Malta would take
over in 2017
2) Vicky Ford (Rapporteur) (supposedly our hero) AGREED to magazine limits
(originally proposed for anti-concealment???) (of 20 for pistol and 10 for
rifle).
3) Dita Charanzova, (shadow rapporteur), fought TOOTH AND NAIL, against
these compromises, and promises to keep fighting
This is not over by a long shot, so please keep supporting FIREARMS UNITED, who are looking after all of our interests

Sparks

[Mod Note]
Grizzly (and others), can you knock it off with the xenophobic crap for a while? This thread is specifically about the EU legislative proposals to restrict firearms ownership.

The next post, from anyone, saying it's all because of the <insert ethnic or political group here> is getting deleted and the author is getting a week off. Enough is enough. Take it to Politics or After Hours if you want to go down that road.
[/Mod Note]

BattleCorp

Apologies for the length of this post. It's an email from Marian Harkin. Looks like nothing is agreed as of yet, but they are trying hard to get some sort of deal done.

A Chara,

As many of you know, the European Parliaments Committee on the Internal Market and Consumer Protection voted on the Commission’s proposal to revise the Firearms Directive. Since the meeting I arranged in Athlone in April and my previous email, I have actively engaged with my colleagues here in the Parliament in order to improve the wording of the text and to ensure that the key issues, which were raised in Athlone, got support.

The Commission’s original proposal was in many ways unacceptable, since the Commission had neither done an impact assessment nor conducted stakeholder consultations. Consequently, a lot of my attention focused on getting rid of the most unacceptable elements in the Commission’s proposal. Specifically, the amendments which I submitted (see attached), focussed on the following areas:

• The ban on all legally held semi-automatic firearms
• The ban on certain types of replica firearms
• The obligation for all museums to destroy their collection of firearms which have not been deactivated
• The obligation for annual medical checks for holders of firearms

Since that time, the Parliament voted on their position and have subsequently been negotiating with the European Council and the Commission to find an agreement. I can, however, inform you that at Monday's meeting between the three institutions no agreement was reached on the controversial area of categorisation. In short, the Commission came forward with a new compromise on categorisation from what we were told last week. From what I gather, this was rejected both by the Parliament and the Council teams. The compromise was considered by the EP not to be based at all on 'facts' and was extremely poor. The compromises which were drafted between the institutions, and which we were given last week, are set out below but may have slightly changed since the meeting on Monday. I am waiting on the updated compromises and will send you more information when I have it. If you have any queries please let me know and I will raise them with my colleague who is leading for my political group on this file. Just to note, the attached compromises were from last week and may have changed. Finally, I have also attached a brief document outlining the work I have done to date in the Parliament on this file if you are not familiar. Please see below my comments on the controversial issues that are being negotiated at present. Likewise, please send me any questions you have. Categorisation

- Semi-automatics which were converted from automatic firearms after the date of entry in force of the regulation would be banned
- short firearms which allow the firing of more than 21 rounds without reloading would be banned - not an issue for Ireland
- long firearms which allow the firing of more than 11 rounds without reloading would be banned - not an issue for Ireland

Grandfathering of conversions

- this would allow member states to re-authorise people to own the firearms outlined above if they were already allowed to do so. (This was seen as a compromise from some within the EP and Council as it would allow many people to continue to hold certain firearms)
- no longer in the Directive (They were originally in the scope). This is agreed upon.

Deactivation standards

- a common standard will be implemented but it is not sure in what manner. The EP called for it to be in the basic legislation or for the Commission to come forward with a delegated act outing the procedure. As you may know, there was a new common standard of deactivation adopted earlier this year via an implementing act. Many people and authorities are finding this unworkable and want to see it changed. In short, the EP will remove the somewhat prescriptive deactivation standard in the basic legislation if the Commission will come forward with a new standard which can be scrutinised by the Parliament. This has not be agreed upon yet. As you may know, Ireland has already adopted the original deactivation standards from the EU this year. But Ireland does not have a certifying authority. All firearms deactivated in Ireland will have to be sent to the UK (Birmingham Proof House) for certification. This adds additional costs on Irish citizens. However, this issue is really a matter for the Irish government to look at. i.e set up a certifying body in Ireland.

Conversion of blank firearms

- technical specifications are to be drawn up so that conversion to fire live rounds can't happen. This is mostly agreed and seems fine.

]Safe storage

- This was not an issue for Ireland as strict rules on storage of firearms and ammunition are already in place.

Marking

- This is not a major issue for Ireland as we are not a manufacturing country but it would be for countries who manufacture firearms. This would add costs which may be put on the consumer. It may also be a problem for future sales of used firearms but would not be applied retroactively. This is not yet agreed as there is not a definition on what is essential component yet. However, if an essential component was too small to mark it would be exempt from marking.

Data filing

- This was not an issue. More a member state issue with regard expense to setting up a system. This has been provisionally agreed.

Exchange of information

- This is fine and was provisionally agreed.

Reservists

- Not an issue for Ireland but it does allow some member states to continue to allow certain persons to hold firearms which are from category A.

Museums and collectors

- Both are granted exemptions. This is not a major issue for Ireland as most historical firearms are in the states possession. However, other member states are supportive.

Sport shooters

- a compromise was put in place for these type of shooters who may use firearms in category A. In short, it allows members of a registered shooting club to continue to possess firearms in category A. Ireland already has a system requiring sports shooters to provide proof of membership of an authorised target shooting club and participation in recognised competition disciplines.

Distance sales

- this will not affect the current position and is provisionally agreed.

Medical tests

- This may become an issue for Ireland but Marian has voiced her concerns to our negotiator. The issue is whether or not the word 'may' or 'shall' be used in the text. i.e. whether medical test 'may' happen or 'shall' happen. The Council would rather use 'may' as it would leave it up to member states to decide what assessment they would like to put in place. Ireland already introduced a requirement for firearms licence applicants to provide authority to the Firearms licensing authority to liaise with the applicants medical practitioner. This was also on the recommendations of the Barr Tribunal. This authority must be renewed for each licence renewal period. The word "continuous" in the compromise could therefore be problematic in that it could be interpreted as meaning during the duration of the licence period. I could see medical practitioners, who in Ireland already objected to medical tests at the Barr Tribunal, objecting to any notion of continuous throughout the licensing period. Marian has also raised this issue.

Time Limitation

- The text call s for 5 year period. It does not affect Ireland.

Grizzly 45

And responded to as there some factual inaccuaries in Marian's letter and some stuff does still affect us here.

Anyways,some possible good news,there is a rumour going about Brussels that the EU Comm might actually pull this whole legislation proposal.. Simply because they cant go and announce "All deadly semi auto Klashnikovs are banned in the EU" to the sheeple of Europe. So if we can keep hammering our MEPS on that message as well that this whole thing is an unworkable mess and should be pulled,and not only that alot of this has been decided in EU triloges.

Which are unaccountable,secret discussions with no availability of minutes of the meetings or recordings of who said what,and are in clear breach of the EU's own policy of openness and transparencyurl]https://edri.org/trilogues-the-system-that-undermines-eu-democracy-and-transparency/[/url BTW our own Emily O Reily is head of the EU ombudsman on this matter.
As it stands ,we have the following

Any gun that you have a high cap mag for over 10 shots in a long arm or 20 shots in a short arm becomes a CAT A prohibited[but you can get an exception from your national govt for recognised sports shooting competitions if you participate regulary and are a club member...Which is now also conflicting with a UN charter of human rights,you cannot be forced or coerced to join any religion,organisation or club against your will or to recive benefits or privilidges.AND good luck travelling internationally with it as no airline will transport a CAT A prohibited weapon of war
EDIT
Better still this is more comprehensive than my previous post
f it is a converted full auto it goes to A6 but you have grandfather rights
If it is a dedicated semiauto with hicap magazine in place it is A7 but you will have grandfather rights
If it is a dedicated semiauto with 10 round magazine in place, it is B7
If your AK looks civilized and has a two round magazine that can be detached it is B 5
If your AK looks civilized and has a two round magazine that is fixed to the gun it is C 3
If it is deactivated according to regulation 2015/2403 it is not a firearm

If you are a criminal, none of the above

Mad stuff Ted! I can see our poor chief Supers and Supers reaching for the bottle and considering very early retirement.



They are still unsure on this full auto converted to semi auto malarkey

Anyways,we are making the headlines,and Firearms United is now considerd the "EU gun lobby"

http://www.euractiv.com/section/trade-society/news/commission-says-stop-free-circulation-of-kalashnikovs/

Grizzly 45

FIRE - FIGHTING ILLICIT FIREARMS TRAFFICKING ROUTES AND ACTORS AT EUROPEAN LEVEL
I'll leave this here as it might be of use to some folks who might run into difficulties with their applications and their FO or Supers claiming they are living in a high crime area or whatnot. The figures are abit stale,but they are actually AGS provided figures to the EU project...
And its also quite handy to do a comparison to whatever country claims to be a gun free paradise.
http://fireproject.eu/

BTW I only found out last night the group who put this together are ANTI GUN
Commission financed the Fire project.EU. SIPRI is known for its anti-gun attitude. See what this anti-gun lobby presented in the final report:
http://tinyurl.com/Fireproject-EU-SIPRI.
So what better arguements could you have with a bolshie super??Anti gun figures that say there isnt a problem? Or with a minister that wants to ban semi autos?The EU anti gun crowd say they arent a problem and here are the stats.

yubabill1

Got this today

Luke is totally on your side on this issue. I’ve had a talk with him on it. He had a few other people enquiring about it as well. He will vote against any amendments that may come through on it. See below what he wrote in another correspondence on the same subject.

I wouldn't support what the EU is trying to do. What next? Ban trucks because of what that lunatic did in france. You could make the arguments for knitting needles and steak knives. in the wrong hands there could be mayhem. Ban knitting?

Give me a call any time you spot any developments on this issue.

Regards

Patrick Fitzpatrick

Parliamentary Assistant to Luke 'Ming' Flanagan MEP

Grizzly 45

Good to see he has hopefully chosen a side...There will be plenty for him in the next coming days... Herr Junker is starting to get nasty,and the EU Empire is about to strike back.:eek:

Grizzly 45

Feel free to use as you see fit.As I am no twatter expert I'll leave this to the more tech savvy folks about here .:)

+++ PLEASE SHARE! ALL OF US ARE "THE GUN LOBBY" - #IAMTHEGUNLOBBY +++
Several times already Jean-Claude Juncker #Junckner and some of his colleagues at the European Commission mentioned that "the gun lobby" is mobilising against the planned #EUgunban.
However, we have nothing in common with faceless weapons manufacturers or backroom politics - Firearms United is a GRASSROOTS MOVEMENT! And that of course means that ALL OF US ARE THE GUN LOBBY!
You may of course share this picture and the #IAMTHEGUNLOBBY hashtag everywhere, use it as your profile pic or distribute this message in any other way via social media!

Grizzly 45

Excellent article and summation of where things stand at the current minute.

http://www.gunsweek.com/en/current/articles/eu-gun-ban-european-commission-bully-council-parliament

Nice to see how decisions are made on ALL our lives in ALL matters in the EUSSR.Secret meetings behind closed doors that have no accountability and to be bullied by an alcoholic mini Hitler ,if to doesn't go his Germanic way...It makes our shower in the Dail bar look utterly open and transparent.