MORE crap on the way.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

One thing that can be done in those countries is,you can train to overcome "the what you do in the moment,fight ,freeze, or flight adrenaline" dump.................only difference is training.

How many actually would train and secondly how many could? Never see the likes of it here and cannot comment on other countries.

Not if you need to find solutions to the problems we are facing here of terrorism in the EU.They have seen it all since 1948.

Not sure we're on the same page. I don't think Israel is a model to be replicated.

Piffile, you should have seen the hue&cry back in the 1970s when the first ARMED police men were deployed in Heathrow!!

Different times lad. FB, social media has turned everyone into a reporter and more and more into, whats the new expression, snowflakes.

Rimfire Shooter

Seems I misunderstood ya so Cass.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

How many actually would train and secondly how many could? Never see the likes of it here and cannot comment on other countries.

I dont think it would be too much of a problem to design a system that requires mandatory bi monthly training or qualification on the range?After all any police officer has to qualify on the range once a month to be cleared for duty carry. Never say never these days.;) Anything is possible.

Not sure we're on the same page. I don't think Israel is a model to be replicated.

Not talking about its political side and problems ,I'm talking on how they deal with armed threats in day to day life,and if we need solutions if a situation like "France 16" happens EU wide.It would kind of make sense to talk to people who have experiance of it.

Different times lad. FB, social media has turned everyone into a reporter and more and more into, whats the new expression, snowflakes

.

Reporters?? More like idiots with cameras and access to a global audience in minutes to spew their own rants and raves on subjects. I heard a great expression that describes some of these peoples attitude to politics...don't get your way,throw a tantrum a toddler old would be embarrassed of.... Toddler and politics "Toddlerics"...You saw it here first!:)

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Reporters?? More like idiots with cameras and access to a global audience in minutes to spew their own rants and raves on subjects. I heard a great expression that describes some of these peoples attitude to politics...don't get your way,throw a tantrum a toddler old would be embarrassed of.... Toddler and politics "Toddlerics"...You saw it here first!:)

You mean like on here? :P

outinthefields

Vicky Fords fb page

https://www.facebook.com/vickyfordmep/posts/1221585664597196

yubabill1

outinthefields wrote: »

Vicky Fords fb page

https://www.facebook.com/vickyfordmep/posts/1221585664597196

Quote from Vicky Ford's FB post above

"Status of magazines/ loading devices
Law enforcement authorities in certain countries pressed hard for restrictions on higher capacity magazines. The Council approach was to prohibit their possession but this was rejected by the Parliament as it was considered impractical to enforce. Instead it was agreed that future acquisitions of loading devices will depend upon showing a valid and appropriate license, as is already the case for ammunition, so only those with authorisation to hold category A firearms will be permitted to acquire high capacity magazines.
People who are found in possession of a high capacity magazine after a transition period and who do not have a category A authorisation will risk having their authorisation to hold firearms removed."

Sounds like they are going to restrict the sale/possession of mags above 10 rds capacity.

So, if you own a NON-S/A rifle which runs on AR/AK/Mini 14 etc. mags and you have that firearm legally, you risk losing your authorisation if you have a mag greater than 10rds although your rifle/mag do not fall into Cat A (i.e.; you have not broken the law)?

They are not openly saying how they are going to require authorisation to obtain/own higher cap mags, plus the grandfathering clause for mags gets no mention.

If you own a legally-obtained and authorised bolt rifle which can take 30 rd mags, a UK manual-op AR etc., where do you stand?

Really.....a criminal or terrorist isn't going to be in any way deterred or deflected by these measures. They are a fig leaf.

And the transport of Cat A firearms by airlines etc. is still not going to be possible...

tac foley

Seeing as how the 'law-makers' are totally incapable of pursuing the illegal owners of such magazines, usually attached to guns that they are using to slaughter hundreds of innocent people over the EU, they introduce more and more vapid restrictions to the very people that they SHOULD trust, seeing as how THEY have been investigated and found to be law-abiding, trustworthy citizens.

Seeing as they don't trust US, why on earth should WE trust them?

tac

Grizzly 45

Never say never... It seems that the Czech republic are now making RTKBA in self defence open to ALL of its citizens.A bill was introduced yesterday into the parliment that has broad cross party support and looks like passing.

Rumour has it that the French will move to ban ALL semi autos converted from full auto in Jan2017.That means destroying historical pieces that have been converted to semi auto for years with no problems at all.Like belt fed MG42 and Browning 30 cals that actually saw action in Frances history.:(
More to follow....

Grizzly 45

yubabill1 wrote: »

Quote from Vicky Ford's FB post above

"Status of magazines/ loading devices
Law enforcement authorities in certain countries pressed hard for restrictions on higher capacity magazines. The Council approach was to prohibit their possession but this was rejected by the Parliament as it was considered impractical to enforce. Instead it was agreed that future acquisitions of loading devices will depend upon showing a valid and appropriate license, as is already the case for ammunition, so only those with authorisation to hold category A firearms will be permitted to acquire high capacity magazines.
People who are found in possession of a high capacity magazine after a transition period and who do not have a category A authorisation will risk having their authorisation to hold firearms removed."

Sounds like they are going to restrict the sale/possession of mags above 10 rds capacity.

So, if you own a NON-S/A rifle which runs on AR/AK/Mini 14 etc. mags and you have that firearm legally, you risk losing your authorisation if you have a mag greater than 10rds although your rifle/mag do not fall into Cat A (i.e.; you have not broken the law)?

They are not openly saying how they are going to require authorisation to obtain/own higher cap mags, plus the grandfathering clause for mags gets no mention.

If you own a legally-obtained and authorised bolt rifle which can take 30 rd mags, a UK manual-op AR etc., where do you stand?

Really.....a criminal or terrorist isn't going to be in any way deterred or deflected by these measures. They are a fig leaf.

And the transport of Cat A firearms by airlines etc. is still not going to be possible...

You should be fine,as the "repeater" family of guns ar still Cat B and don't fall under this remit at all.But yes it is a valid point and we will be slammed here with "good reason" to want a HI cap mag..... Which is what exactly?? We don't have any comps that need more than ten shots,even at that,here in the ROI..IPSC is the get out clause for most EU citizens,bar here of course!:(

So better start figuring out a competition that requires 20 shots and can be done with a BA,or be prepared to go once a month to NI,UK,France or Germany [if you have a semi] to compete and qualify in IPSC.
As usual due to our own indifference and inactivity and shure that will never happen to us here.. we lose out again.
However it is a good point which I'll feed back and lets see what happens..

Anyone waking up to the fact now that this is not about fighting terrorism,and what a sht sanger of gun control and personal control this whole EU project is becoming for us?


EDIT; Later..Well it looks like if you have a "repeater,be it bolt,lever ,pump or straight pull or MARS.You are foooked as well!:mad: It seems to be a eU wide ban on high cap mags no matter what..... I can see Duct tape becoming very pouplar and useful for those that wish to continue legally with a breif interruption of two seconds for a mag change...:rolleyes:

tac foley

Well the Swiss have already said no to any attempt at home-grown restrictions of their gun laws.....http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12441834

So how will they deal with a bunch of furriners in Brussels?

tac

Grizzly 45

Do not mess with the Swiss and their guns.Keep pushing there Brussels and watch them say Auf weidersehen/..

https://www.finger-weg-vom-schweizer-waffenrecht.ch/ Sorry just in German,but you'll get the drift...

gunny123

tac foley wrote: »

Well the Swiss have already said no to any attempt at home-grown restrictions of their gun laws.....http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12441834

So how will they deal with a bunch of furriners in Brussels?

tac

It will be interesting to see how the eussr deal with britain and brexit, i heard today the eu want 50 billion as part of the separation. I know its not gun related, but it just shows the germanic "you will do as we say or else" attitude of the eu.

tac foley

The prime movers here are not the Germans, however much German they are speaking. It is the 'non-national' liberals, speaking in whatever language, who are p*ssing in our collective hats, and then expecting up to put them on our heads.

tac

yubabill1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Anyone waking up to the fact now that this is not about fighting terrorism,and what a sht sanger of gun control and personal control this whole EU project is becoming for us?


EDIT; Later..Well it looks like if you have a "repeater,be it bolt,lever ,pump or straight pull or MARS.You are foooked as well!:mad: It seems to be a eU wide ban on high cap mags no matter what..... I can see Duct tape becoming very pouplar and useful for those that wish to continue legally with a breif interruption of two seconds for a mag change...:rolleyes:

Sooo.....Vicky has dressed even MORE STRINGENT controls as a sugar-coated pill for us to take.

First she says semi autos not Cat A (prohibited) unless a high-cap mag actually attached.

Then, buried between the lines we see;

-Mags are going to be licensed.
-Grandfathering gone.

High capacity mags will probably be Cat A, again reading between the lines.

One thing - this has not been agreed between EP/EC etc, I assume? Plus, they are not saying that this will be finished by end 2016 any more.

Grizzly 45

And no one has a clue how this is going to be controlled,enforced,or otherwise dealt with on a EU or national level.Or how will they deal with things like Lancer mags,that can be adjusted from 10 to 20 shots And what happens if you convert your mags to ten shots?Ala our situation here with 5 shot .22 pistols?:rolleyes:
So my advice would be ,ask Santy for a bunch of mags while you still can..:eek:

And no it is pretty much on paper at this stage,but it still has to go to the EP,and if ASFIK 40 MEPs reject it it is game over. Thats if their countries don't bully them into accepting it sometime in March.This has only happened once with the EP,something to do with data collection,and they have refused other more important issues like mandatory 12 hour stop overs for pilots on long haul flights.. So here's hoping we might be the second case.

yubabill1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And no it is pretty much on paper at this stage,but it still has to go to the EP,and if ASFIK 40 MEPs reject it it is game over. Thats if their countries don't bully them into accepting it sometime in March.This has only happened once with the EP,something to do with data collection,and they have refused other more important issues like mandatory 12 hour stop overs for pilots on long haul flights.. So here's hoping we might be the second case.

The key to this whole thing.

We need to convince 40 MEP's that millions of firearms licence holders - mostly better-off, employed, skilled/educated, active voters - see this as the unelected European Commission bullying the elected representatives in the European Parliament into adopting an ineffective and obstructive piece of legislation.

I think Marian Harkin and maybe Ming Flanagan will support us, so 38 more out of 700-odd required.

Grizzly 45

Put together by a czech pro gun group
https://www.facebook.com/czechforguns/videos/1448538788491079

Grizzly 45

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-4464_en.htm

yubabill1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-4464_en.htm

Junker must have been drunk when he dictated this article.

He's saying that many of the 10,000 homicides committed in the EU in the last decade were by legally-held firearms.

1. Were there 10,000 homicides in the EU in the last decade - genuine question?

2. Exactly how many were committed with legally-held firearms?

Anyone got any figures?

The Commission targeting legitimate firearms holders to make citizens more secure does not surprise me, seeing as how the German police (c'mon, Germany runs the EU now) are now admitting that they arrested the wrong man for last night's truck atrocity in the Berlin Christmas market.

This damp squib directive will be totally lost in the maelstrom of the news today, probably deliberate timing by Juncker.

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

1. Were there 10,000 homicides in the EU in the last decade - genuine question?

Yes.

There were approx 71,000 deaths (other than natural) from 2005 to 2015. A far cry from the 100,000 deaths allegedly caused by LEGALLY held firearms alone, as quoted by Elżbieta Bieńkowska.

The numbers are purely fictitious. As a lot of gun related deaths do not involve the recovery of the item/gun there is no way to accurately determine if the deaths occurred with a legal or illegally held firearm so all we have are the numbers that are reported with the recovery of a firearm/weapon. Chief Super Fergus Healy made the same SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess) in relation to the same figures here and he was shown to be as full of sh*t as the EU.

2. Exactly how many were committed with legally-held firearms?

Anyone got any figures?

The estimated numbers are as follows:

• 8,500 - Illegally held firearm
• 1,500 - Legally held firearms
• 22,000 - Sharp object
• 7,500 - Blunt object
• 7,500 - Bodily harm
• 19,000 - Other means
• 5,000 - Strangulation, suffocation, Hanging

Total of 71,000 by ALL means.

............seeing as how the German police (c'mon, Germany runs the EU now)...............

Been saying this for years. They have been for over 15 years. This time it was a financial conquering.

This damp squib directive will be totally lost in the maelstrom of the news today, probably deliberate timing by Juncker.

Of course it will.

Same way as when our shower of f**k wits want to introduce another screwing measure sorry law, there is always something to distract us like keys to a baby.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Yes.

Been saying this for years. They have been for over 15 years. This time it was a financial conquering.

Putting on German hat here
You know why Enda is such a swot and good little boy when it comes to Angelica???He proably learned from Brian Cowen's mistake of lecturing her and the then German finance minister about how to solve the economic crises by doing Ireland's plan of selling each other grossly overpriced real estate,and being the best in the world [In BS more than anything else] at everything...

Great pity Mr Cowen didn't know anything about [1] German demeanour and [2]international diplomacy. Because in the first instance he would have stilled his chops pretty quick if he had read Mrs Merkel's body langauge and face..Germans will keep a polite face and smile,but but their eyes will tell you that you are going to be taken apart bit by bit in the most nastiest possible way when they get their chance to do so,and Merkel was raging after that meeting apprently.We paid pretty dearly for that oafs grand standing in that conference,and still do now.

Lets not forget WHO loaned the money for the Celtic tiger boom[mostly frugal Hans and Hanelore's life savings in the German banks]who borrowed it, who sold us the people a sht sandwich of never ending good times ,and that we could afford millionare lifestyles on a dole income in many cases and allowed fatty Cowen to boast "we are awash with money" in one of his budgets. It's never a good idea to piss off people whom you owe money to. To use an Irish excuse of feck ups.."Everyone and no one is to blame,hence no prosecutions,but promotions and raises all round... It happened,we must move on and learn from it.Nothin to see here!":rolleyes:

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Putting on German hat here
You know why Enda is such a swot and good little boy when it comes to Angelica???He proably learned from Brian Cowen's mistake of lecturing her and the then German finance minister about how to solve the economic crises by doing Ireland's plan of selling each other grossly overpriced real estate,and being the best in the world [In BS more than anything else] at everything...

Great pity Mr Cowen didn't know anything about [1] German demeanour and [2]international diplomacy. Because in the first instance he would have stilled his chops pretty quick if he had read Mrs Merkel's body langauge and face..Germans will keep a polite face and smile,but but their eyes will tell you that you are going to be taken apart bit by bit in the most nastiest possible way when they get their chance to do so,and Merkel was raging after that meeting apprently.We paid pretty dearly for that oafs grand standing in that conference,and still do now.

Lets not forget WHO loaned the money for the Celtic tiger boom[mostly frugal Hans and Hanelore's life savings in the German banks]who borrowed it, who sold us the people a sht sandwich of never ending good times ,and that we could afford millionare lifestyles on a dole income in many cases and allowed fatty Cowen to boast "we are awash with money" in one of his budgets. It's never a good idea to piss off people whom you owe money to. To use an Irish excuse of feck ups.."Everyone and no one is to blame,hence no prosecutions,but promotions and raises all round... It happened,we must move on and learn from it.Nothin to see here!":rolleyes:

I like the Germans, fantastic engineers, great innovators, a good outlook on life and a great work ethic, we won't mention the couple of bouts of errr, unpleasantness in the last century. But the Germans lending money to the irish property bubble, was as reckless of them as it was with the irish borrowing millions for miniature apartments. Then to look for their money back when it all imploded was to me childish. If i go into paddy power and put my weeks wages on a horse and it doesn't win, me going up to the counter and asking for my money back, is basically what the Germans done.

Don't worry about Biffo, seeing as Bertie ahern is coming back, biffo won't be far behind, maybe Shatter too, who knows ?

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

The estimated numbers are as follows:

• 8,500 - Illegally held firearm
• 1,500 - Legally held firearms
  

Total of 71,000 by ALL means.

So, Juncker thinks that 15% of all homicides by firearm counts as many.

I'm assuming these above are homicides, and not suicides. Good job this press release will not see the light of day.

And they're banning any mags above 10 ads capacity for all long arms (presume that means centerfires, as they say something else about rimfire).

BTW, while I'm here, I realised after the fact that we were 40 MEP's short of a majority, originally thought we just needed 40 MEP's to reject the directive.

All the same, if supporters in each country managed to sway one MEP......

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

So, Juncker thinks that 15% of all homicides by firearm counts as many.

15% of the total. If you include legally held ones only then it's just over 2%.

I'm assuming these above are homicides, and not suicides. Good job this press release will not see the light of day.

It does not break them down, but it does include all deaths so you can safely include suicides in that figure.

Grizzly 45

gunny123 wrote: »

. But the Germans lending money to the irish property bubble, was as reckless of them as it was with the irish borrowing millions for miniature apartments.

Couldn't agree with you 100% more on that point.But consider this point..Banks are in the busisness of making money. The Germans arent great spenders on anything,and save more money than most Europeans. There was billions sitting in savings in accounts from the average German citizen,and not making much intrest,if any.so along comes Paddy with his building fad and upswing economy. Hans the banker ,logically sees a good investment potential and offers Paddy money ,along with Jan and Pierre in Holland and France.However,all three forgot or didnt care about one important thing DUE DILLIGENCE... How was Paddy going to pay this back and what was his collateral?Had we discovered oil in the bogs?Taxing the leprachauns on their crocks of gold?Selling real estate to each other in glorified Ponzi schemes is not a sound economic basis for a country...Apart from that we had nothing to back it up or even the chance of devalueing anymore because of the Euro.

Then to look for their money back when it all imploded was to me childish. If i go into paddy power and put my weeks wages on a horse and it doesn't win, me going up to the counter and asking for my money back, is basically what the Germans done.

Well,its kind of what banks do when their loans go pear shaped...They are in this to make money,no tto be your friend. Yes,if you speculate IE gamble,you have to be prepared to lose your input.IE as you said with PP and those that do this on the huge scale accept this risk.
They were all pleasently surprised when we took our private [bank] debt and coupled it to our national debt,and got assurances from another feckless idiot [Kenny] that we would pay it all back,no problem Sir!
Where we could have negoiated some terms,if we had anyone with balls,[or a Donald Trump attitude]down to a less than a decade of austerity.:rolleyes: This is the problem of a small country.All the politicans,movers& shakers and whatnot are all in a circle jerk of each other.
As no doubt it is an expensive lark to run political campaigns once every five years.You can be sure the board of directors of our banks are good pals with both parties..

I reckon that when it came to the sht or get off the pot moment in 08. Politicans were told..."If we go down because Frankfurt and Berlin is on our necks and you walk away from us lads...Yer all coming along for the ride,as we'll be calling in your parties outstanding loans,and wont be too favourable to any requests for loans in the next elections."
Anywhere else,this is called joint accountability of failure.IE We shouldnt have taken that much mone and the banks shouldnt have given it to us in the first place,or the EU loaned us those massive sums in the first place.And us little people who got burnt here as well,we have to figure out the differences between "want" and "need".

Don't worry about Biffo, seeing as Bertie ahern is coming back, biffo won't be far behind, maybe Shatter too, who knows ?

Along with that horrible gun banning creep Dermot Aherne no doubt as well!:mad:
Lets get back OT as no doubt we have figured out that our national lot being so beholden to Brussels now will roll over on anything orderd to them from the EUSSR secetariat on any topic.:(

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

15% of the total. If you include legally held ones only then it's just over 2%.


It does not break them down, but it does include all deaths so you can safely include suicides in that figure.

Yes, but he is technically correct to claim 10,000 homicides by firearm, although he should have taken out suicides if he was going to be ethical about it (fat chance).

You are correct to say 2% of all killings are caused by legally held firearms.

I work in science and we use 5% as a minimum level to be statistically significant, so Juncker is pathetic.

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

Yes, but he is technically correct to claim 10,000 homicides by firearm, although he should have taken out suicides if he was going to be ethical about it (fat chance).

I'd disagree with that assertion.

Simply put if he wants to ban legally held firearms based on numbers returned for illegally held ones then what is to stop him using road deaths, natural deaths from old age, heart attacks, etc, etc.

The purpose of this farce started as a means to stop terrorism. That has since been well and truly dropped and it's now simply an attempt to grab guns due to the impotence of not being able to combat terrorism.

Now he is muddying the waters claiming all deaths as a result of legally held firearms. Put it this way, in Ireland legally held guns accounted for something like 5 deaths in the last couple of years. Yet one C.Super claimed this number to be in the hundreds because the guns were never recovered and so legally held guns could not be ruled out.

IOW he made it such that we had to try and prove a negative.

Grizzly 45

yubabill1 wrote: »

So, Juncker thinks that 15% of all homicides by firearm counts as many.

I'm assuming these above are homicides, and not suicides. Good job this press release will not see the light of day.

And they're banning any mags above 10 ads capacity for all long arms (presume that means centerfires, as they say something else about rimfire).

Nope they become ownable or purchaseable if you have a CAT A exemption.

That being ,you are competing regulary in a recognised competition and or are training to do so...No real definitions given thereof,and its a disipline recognised by an internationally recognised sporting body[IOW IPSC fits the bill on this]

RIMfire is completely out of this equation anyway both in the EU legislation and in our legislation once you are over ten rounds you are a restricted category anyway.

If your CF SA only has TEN rounds or a mag to hold ten rounds,and was built from the ground up as a modern sporting rifle AFAICS,it STAYS in CAT B anyway.
So IOW WTF.com does this legislation improve or sort out???? You can legally use duct tape or a starfish mag coupler and connect five ten rounders together and be 100% legal both here and in the EU and actually have 50 rounds with about a 2 second pause mag change,instead of 20 rounds in one box..Go figure this on those points or on no legislation on compensation for surrendered mags ,or how to make them legally 10 shots...

All I can see being affected here are a few lads who have converted military pieces that were FA and have been converted to SA,but they can get a CAT A exemption.

BTW, while I'm here, I realised after the fact that we were 40 MEP's short of a majority, originally thought we just needed 40 MEP's to reject the directive.

All the same, if supporters in each country managed to sway one MEP......

And that's the next battle for us.The parliment is proably the most democratic organisation in that whole rotten place. Between Jan and Mar next year its going to get really intresting..Especially on our side as there is going to be a major advertising campaign launched by the "European gun lobby.":) Who now BTW have NGB status in Brussels.:)

yubabill1

And here's another thing - the new amendments will be minimum standards.

Individual member states can decide to impose stricter regulations if they wish.

Meaning someone could say "Semi auto firearms are Cat A (Prohibited) by Directive X ......"

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

Meaning someone could say "Semi auto firearms are Cat A (Prohibited) by Directive X ......"

Yup.

Grandfathering at best, and so the death of another sport.