MORE crap on the way.

yubabill1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

yubabill1 wrote: »

Nope they become ownable or purchaseable if you have a CAT A exemption.

That being ,you are competing regulary in a recognised competition and or are training to do so...No real definitions given thereof,and its a disipline recognised by an internationally recognised sporting body[IOW IPSC fits the bill on this]

My reading is that mags over 10rds are going to be banned, but with exceptions as you outline.

For non-club shooters/hunters with bolt repeaters etc. like me, they will be banned.

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

I'd disagree with that assertion.

Simply put if he wants to ban legally held firearms based on numbers returned for illegally held ones then what is to stop him using road deaths, natural deaths from old age, heart attacks, etc, etc.

Yes, but the weasel-wording is technically correct, saying 10,000 deaths caused by firearms (of any kind).

It gets outrageous when he distils "many of which were with legally-held firearms" out of this 10,000.

1,500 out of 10,000 does not justify the use of "many" to the disinterested, pedantic or ordinary observer.

Grizzly 45

yubabill1 wrote: »

And here's another thing - the new amendments will be minimum standards.

Individual member states can decide to impose stricter regulations if they wish.

Meaning someone could say "Semi auto firearms are Cat A (Prohibited) by Directive X ......"

Errr NO!
They can say SA with more than a10 round magazine inserted are prohibited. Or the mags are prohibited.Or it folds below an over all length of 50 cms and still can be fired And the EU is explicit on that point!

It cant be banned on "I dont like the look of dat now!" clause.
Nor can it be prohibited because if "could" take a mag greater than 10 rounds..
And then it leaves the govt open to compensation claims and a EU court case for violating EU legislation on this in the extreme case.
As they are legal now and you want to ban them for whatever reason.EU article 14 comes into play straight away.IOW they HAVE TO BY LAW pay market value before the enactment of the national law for the guns and mags,or mags,or simply say,convert them to ten shots and leave the damn things in Cat B . Is it worth the hassle of 160 +/- cases,because then they could say the same for handguns all of them could take 20 round mags,and we are back doing the court dance again.But this time the govt is fighting an EU directive. While they may ban,they have to pay..No ifs or buts.

yubabill1

yubabill1 wrote: »

Yes, but the weasel-wording is technically correct, saying 10,000 deaths caused by firearms (of any kind).

It gets outrageous when he distils "many of which were with legally-held firearms" out of this 10,000.

1,500 out of 10,000 does not justify the use of "many" to the disinterested, pedantic or ordinary observer.

I know this has been said before, but I want to refine the above to get a handle on the reality of the situation;

So, suicides are in the 10,000 deaths by firearm and they break down

8500 by illegal firearms

1500 by legal firearms

- BUT illegal firearms are seldom used for suicide, so nearly all the 8500 deaths are very likely murders

- how many of the 1500 were suicides (i.e.; not a danger to the general public)?

Another critical distinction.

Grizzly 45

yubabill1 wrote: »

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

My reading is that mags over 10rds are going to be banned, but with exceptions as you outline.

For non-club shooters/hunters with bolt repeaters etc. like me, they will be banned.

Ironic isnt it??The laws of unintended consequences.But TBH,i cant see this mag farsce surviving past the first 5year review..even if this does become law..This is unworkable,and un oversee able by Federal or national govts. Have these people not looked at the US to see the futility of this concept.There already is a product on the EU market that utterly negates the ban even before it is law.Which will work on bot semis,pumps.MARS and bolt actions. Thats even if anyone is daft enough to hand up a mag in the first place.There is no direction on how mags can be blocked to ten rounds either. What worries most Europeans is actually the medical and shrink tests.In places like Italy where all shrinks who do the mental tests are govt employees for this job,you could understand why they might be worried.

Grizzly 45

As usual an exellent article . The EU claims a victory,far from it..More like a stalemate,and the "EU gun lobby" has yet to begin to fight.:D

http://www.gunsweek.com/en/current/articles/trilogue-ends-eu-gun-ban

yubabill1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

As usual an exellent article . The EU claims a victory,far from it..More like a stalemate,and the "EU gun lobby" has yet to begin to fight.:D

http://www.gunsweek.com/en/current/articles/trilogue-ends-eu-gun-ban

Excellent letter from Firearms United to Timmermans in that article - observant, constructive and helpful;

http://www.gunsweek.com/sites/default/files/archive/current/articles/eu-gun-ban-trilogue-ends/FU-letter-Timmermans.pdf


Also, the EU press release language 20/12/16 is a big comedown from the previous week's EuActive etc. articles quoting Juncker about the aggressive EU gun lobby.

Grizzly 45

BTW did anyone else pick up on this??That includes us all!:mad::mad::mad:

"We fought hard for an ambitious deal that reduces the risk of shootings in schools,summer camps or terrorist attacks with legally held firearms."

Jean Claude Juncker

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

BTW did anyone else pick up on this??That includes us all!:mad::mad::mad:

"We fought hard for an ambitious deal that reduces the risk of shootings in schools,summer camps or terrorist attacks with legally held firearms."

Jean Claude Juncker

The eu is a farce at this stage and anything the likes of J.C. Drunkard has to say is complete spin. The suspect in the latest atrocity in berlin is armed, the driver of the lorry was shot. The suspect also served four years in prison for burning a school down in Italy. Maybe Juncker could tell us how someone with no id or fake id, who had served a jail term for a serious crime, could obtain a firearm ? Maybe he was a member of the Berlin rifle and pistol club ?

Cass

From Firearms United regaridn teh leaked document about the Trilogue.

We are aware of the fact that a leaked draft of the compromise political agreement that came out from yesterday's trilogue is circulating, and that is making a lot of people (including many of our followers) freak out.

We please ask you to STOP CIRCULATING IT or just STOP PAYING ATTENTION TO IT.

It has been confirmed by our sources in Brussels that the document is NOT RELIABLE, as it does not contain many last-minute corrections that establish several very important exceptions that would seemingly (and we repeat: SEEMINGLY) be MANDATORY, not volountary, for the Member States to implement. It would give us even more leverage to fix the mess before it gets voted in and adopted.

We thus kindly as you to wait until the official document is published before making any kind of assuption.

In the meanwhile, rest assured that FIREARMS UNITED is working for you.

ACT TOGETHER, FEEL FREE AND MAKE CHANGES

Grizzly 45

Semi-automatic long firearms whose loading device and chamber cannot together hold more than three rounds, where the loading device is removable or where it is not certain that the weapon cannot be converted, with ordinary tools, into a weapon whose loading device and chamber can together hold more than three rounds listed under point 7 b) of category A.

Seeing that virtually 98% of semi shotguns can take a magazine extension tube,that doesnt require any tools to put on or remove.We suddenly might find all our Irish semi shotguns moved into CAT A....
One that needs clearing very quickly.And if true,its one that FACE needs to come back into the game on very quickly.

Zxthinger

Instead of worrying about legally held firearms which are in the procession of law abiding citizens they'd be better off sticking bollards around public gathering areas. What are we going to end up with..? Sling shots and bows & arrows. Maybe we too should consider leaving the EU

Griz. I take it that the quoted material is part of the leaked pre-script that's in circulation.
Do you have a link to the source material.

Regards zxthinger

Grizzly 45

Zxthinger wrote: »

Instead of worrying about legally held firearms which are in the procession of law abiding citizens they'd be better off sticking bollards around public gathering areas. What are we going to end up with..? Sling shots and bows & arrows. Maybe we too should consider leaving the EU

Griz. I take it that the quoted material is part of the leaked pre-script that's in circulation.
Do you have a link to the source material.

Regards zxthinger

Maybe instead of us all accepting that "terrorism is going to be the new normal" for us all according to the EU,and reacting by removing further rights and freedoms of the citizenery,that our govts start getting proactive on things like this latest outrage.Sticking up bollards is fine in some circumstances...How do you deal with the same threat in say O Connell st Dublin on a Saturday afternoon?Leaving the EU.We signed up for the EEC not a micro managing Federalist Socialist super state,or at the very least get the Hell out of the Euro.
As soon as I have,it will be here....

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Maybe instead of us all accepting that "terrorism is going to be the new normal" for us all according to the EU,and reacting by removing further rights and freedoms of the citizenery,that our govts start getting proactive on things like this latest outrage.Sticking up bollards is fine in some circumstances...How do you deal with the same threat in say O Connell st Dublin on a Saturday afternoon?Leaving the EU.We signed up for the EEC not a micro managing Federalist Socialist super state,or at the very least get the Hell out of the Euro.
As soon as I have,it will be here....

But the irish aren't innocent in all this grizz, one of those pushing for all this change from a common market to a eu superstate is , fg-un-bilderberger-billionare Peter Sutherland. One of his quotes; "the eu should undermine national homogenity". If a few bad apples sneak in from the middle east or africa and kill people, well it can't be helped.

Nekarsulm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Maybe instead of us all accepting that "terrorism is going to be the new normal" for us all according to the EU,and reacting by removing further rights and freedoms of the citizenery,that our govts start getting proactive on things like this latest outrage.Sticking up bollards is fine in some circumstances...How do you deal with the same threat in say O Connell st Dublin on a Saturday afternoon?Leaving the EU.We signed up for the EEC not a micro managing Federalist Socialist super state,or at the very least get the Hell out of the Euro.
As soon as I have,it will be here....

Well said. And if the Berlin truck killer had made it to Dublin, and been stopped by Gardai on Grafton Street, the outcome would have been a couple of Gardai shot and no sign of the attacker. When all you have is a truncheon/baton or a can of pepper spray, there isn't much incentive to apprehend a terrorost.

Cass

There is an old saying, "take away all our guns and only criminal will have guns".

Its a little to much of a "cure all statement", but there is truth to it. The recent attacks only highlight this as well as the highjacking of the plane. We are being stripped of our liberties, rights and freedoms all under the guise of protection. IOW you don't need anything to protect you, we'll do it for you.

Frankly if i thought for one second, even a fraction of a second, that it was true i'd happily skip along to the Garda station in the morning and hand in my firearms to help out with this excellent plan. The problem is its a LIE. Nothing else, but a bare faced LIE.

This isn't the politics forum however the topic is intrinsically linked to the theme of the thread so i'll keep it brief. The truck attacker used a vehicle, not a gun. As we've said countless times over the years, and in keeping with my opening line, if someone wants to do harm they will find a way. Look at the UK. They banned handguns & semi autos and apart from it having no effect, accept on their own law abiding citizens, knife crime went up. If they banned knives, it's be bats, ban bats and it's be hammers. You get the point.

The Paris attack and Berlin attacks only highlight that terrorists will use anything at their disposal to inflict as much damage as possible. They are not interested in single casualties, they want mass casualties. Its why they go for bombs, planes, trucks, etc. and target people in built up areas.

The fact that this latest terrorist was able to make this attack shows we are not safe. The fact the German police arrested the wrong man and despite an EU wide alert the real terrorist managed to pass through at least two countries before being shot just shows how out of their depth and inept the EU is. They are not protecting us, they cannot police their own borders, and then choose to punish their own citizens instead of actually addressing the problem.

I wonder how much would get done if the salaries of all the EU MEPs was thrown at border control, anti terrorist forces, and proper gun control?

I'm tired of this thread. I'm tired of the topic it relates to and seeing these unelected people make decisions, from behind the comfort of their million Euro security force, that affect tens of millions of people just so they can claim to have won a victory. I am tired of them ignoring the will of the people, ignoring fact for made up fictitious numbers, making outrageous claims with no research.

They are charlatans and i for one am tired of them.


End of rant. :mad:

gunny123

Cass wrote: »

I'm tired of this thread. I'm tired of the topic it relates to and seeing these unelected people make decisions, from behind the comfort of their million Euro security force, that affect tens of millions of people just so they can claim to have won a victory. I am tired of them ignoring the will of the people, ignoring fact for made up fictitious numbers, making outrageous claims with no research.

They are charlatans and i for one am tired of them.


End of rant. :mad:

You say you are tired of it all Cass, but since i was a young fella of 13/14 and getting into shooting, being given or buying the irish, uk and sometimes american shooting magazines. Reading the articles on gun laws/ gun control, the various bans in the uk, the release of larger centrefires here, the return of pistols etc, it became crystal clear very quickly, if you are into firearms and shooting, then the whole politics thing goes hand in hand with the sport.

Whats the bets in 5, 10, 15 or 20 years there will still be threads exactly like this one raging on ? I can practically guarantee it.

Cass

I'm by no means an ould fella but i am hitting the wrong side of 40 which means i've seen the same crap before and as you said:

gunny123 wrote: »

Whats the bets in 5, 10, 15 or 20 years there will still be threads exactly like this one raging on ? I can practically guarantee it.

This is almost guaranteed as it's already happened, here.

My despair is that this time its not our own Government trying to screw us, but the EU, and the manner in which they are doing it. With our own we have some level of dialogue, interaction and even some say. We know their thoughts and can work closely with them (albeit a new-ish situation).

With the EU we have none of this, and the sickening part is the way in which its being done. "For our protection". What a load of Horsesh*t. I'd have a little more respect if they simply said we want to take your guns. Not this subterfuge.

So my comments above are because of the complete ignoring, by the unelected members, of the wishes of the people. Couple this with the Irish Governments (cannot speak for the other European countries) uncanny ability to bend over and grab their ankles before they are even asked and you know they will do whatever is asked of them or worse again overdo it to make sure they get the pat on the head from Merkel, Juncker or whomever is holding the leash these days.

Grizzly 45

No doubt about it anymore,if you want to keep shooting and owning a gun in Western Europe,you have to engage politically both on a national and EU level.

Great thing about all this it now has created an "aggressive EU gun lobby"[Something the EU comission wanted to avoid at all costs],and is certainly magnifying the "Trump effect" in Europe.Has got the Swiss hackles up,and are already grumbling despite the sop thrown to them to keep their ex service rifles ,about having a referendum to quit Schnegen.
Not to mind creating hundreds of thousands of more Euro skeptics,and making our leaders look like utter fools who cant protect us by banning civillian owned guns,when terrorists are using knives ,axes and articulated trucks to cause mayhem.Especially releasing the press release on the day of another terrorist attack,that their gun banning was supposed to prevent.

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

No doubt about it anymore,if you want to keep shooting and owning a gun in Western Europe,you have to engage politically both on a national and EU level.

Great thing about all this it now has created an "aggressive EU gun lobby"[Something the EU comission wanted to avoid at all costs],and is certainly magnifying the "Trump effect" in Europe.Has got the Swiss hackles up,and are already grumbling despite the sop thrown to them to keep their ex service rifles ,about having a referendum to quit Schnegen.
Not to mind creating hundreds of thousands of more Euro skeptics,and making our leaders look like utter fools who cant protect us by banning civillian owned guns,when terrorists are using knives ,axes and articulated trucks to cause mayhem.Especially releasing the press release on the day of another terrorist attack,that their gun banning was supposed to prevent.

If there was a properly constructed and run, european version of the american nra, then i would certainly subscribe to it. Hopefully it wouldn't end up like irish shooting orgs, tearing lumps out of each other publically and fighting over who is entitled to oversee each discipline.

Grizzly 45

gunny123 wrote: »

If there was a properly constructed and run, european version of the american nra, then i would certainly subscribe to it. Hopefully it wouldn't end up like irish shooting orgs, tearing lumps out of each other publically and fighting over who is entitled to oversee each discipline.

Its on the way...It's called Firearms United.And the reason it was formed is simply that a Polish lad and a German woman got fed up with the "old boys networks"and the continious infighting ,empire building and primma donnas, all around the EU and their home countries.
Let this in Europe get sorted next year,and then it will start concentrating about building up the National chapters.Tell you one thing,this will be a force to be reckoned with both in the EU and on national levels when it gets going.If you feel it is a worth cause,they take donations,not subscriptions and the bank account/paypal details are on www.firearmsunited.com

Nekarsulm

https://firearms-united.com

Cass

As the lads have said firearms united have been dealing with this for some time now. Only for them we would have been royally shafted already.

As was said above in trying to curb our right and liberties the EU has created the very thing they wanted to avoid, a gun lobby.

Nekarsulm

Joined up and made a donation via PayPal.
Very easily done, and it's refreshing to see a breakdown of funds received and payments made to date.

Grizzly 45

Basically FU Brussels. We ain't doing this!! Oh for politicos like that in our Dail!

BattleCorp

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Basically FU Brussels. We ain't doing this!! Oh for politicos like that in our Dail!

Does this mean that it is dead in the water?

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Basically FU Brussels. We ain't doing this!! Oh for politicos like that in our Dail!

I am not surprised at the eastern european countries telling the people behind this directive to get knotted. They know what its like to live under a dictatorial communist regime, and they also have firearms manufacturing industries.

Grizzly 45

BattleCorp wrote: »

Does this mean that it is dead in the water?

Not quite,but its certainly a serious hit below the waterline..You can be sure there will be all sorts of "or else" type pressure put on Prauge now from Brussels when they get back from the holidays.

yubabill1

I'm sure everyone here has noticed how similarly the EU proposed legislation has played out to the Irish debate we had just before.

The only difference I can see on the macro level is the lack of newspaper articles supporting the authorities' position, unlike the DoJ/AGS campaign here.

I mean, I didn't see anything much in the media following Juncker's "evil gun lobby" press release.

yubabill1

Great response by the Czechs btw - they separate out necessary and proportionate measures from obstructionist "gun control".