MORE crap on the way.

Nekarsulm

"Should be able to demonstrate competency in handling of a firearm to a deciding member of the Gardai"

No mention of the "Deciding Members" knowledge or competency, I notice.

Edit: Actually, if some kind of competency display requirement is foisted on us, then reciprocal competency must be displayed by the Gardai.
Membership of a clay shooting club AND ownership of a rifle of a deer legal caliber, with attaching necessary deer stalking licence, would be a good minimum standard. If no gardai can be found who fulfill these standards, then the force can hardly consider themselves competent to deal with licencing matters.

bluezulu49

cavan shooter wrote: »

"There is a shared concern about the competency of shooters angle....

I see that the Countryside Alliance have this on their website:

"Countryside Alliance Ireland is pleased to announce that it has formally estabished relationships with the following Recognised Shooting Grounds to deliver Professional Instruction that will enable new persons entering the sport to conform to the New Firearms Legislation prior to making their application to the Garda."

It can be found here ---> http://countrysideallianceireland.org/ie/membership-benefits/certified-safe-shooting-training

ezra_

bluezulu49 wrote: »

I see that the Countryside Alliance have this on their website:

"Countryside Alliance Ireland is pleased to announce that it has formally estabished relationships with the following Recognised Shooting Grounds to deliver Professional Instruction that will enable new persons entering the sport to conform to the New Firearms Legislation prior to making their application to the Garda."

It can be found here ---> http://countrysideallianceireland.org/ie/membership-benefits/certified-safe-shooting-training

That isn't new - Courtlough (among others) have been running competency courses for the last few years.

Grizzly 45

Nekarsulm wrote: »

"

Edit: Actually, if some kind of competency display requirement is foisted on us, then reciprocal competency must be displayed by the Gardai.
Membership of a clay shooting club AND ownership of a rifle of a deer legal caliber, with attaching necessary deer stalking licence, would be a good minimum standard. If no gardai can be found who fulfill these standards, then the force can hardly consider themselves competent to deal with licencing matters.

Their former ballistics expert was HCAP qualified......:)

Try more . A bathelors/ masters degree in engineering with a speciality in firearms technology.Or over ten years in the firearms industry in design,and production of firearms as well as a recognised by an international body,accredited certified firearms specialist.[Let a judge &court give you the "expert" qualification...:)]

cavan shooter

ezra_ wrote:

That isn't new - Courtlough (among others) have been running competency courses for the last few years.

I know, So is The NARGC. My point is the so called Sports Coalition as described in the minute is hanging us.

cavan shooter

ezra_ wrote:

That isn't new - Courtlough (among others) have been running competency courses for the last few years.

I know, So is The NARGC. My point is the so called Sports Coalition as described in the minute is hanging us.

berettaman

cavan shooter wrote: »

I'm very pissed with the last minute of the FCP available to reead on the web page and I took it to one of our RGC lads.

We are being set up again and this time it's by our own....I am really annoyed by the "There is a shared concern about the competency of shooters angle....that minute needs to read "The Sports Coalition strongly disagrees with the notion that there is any issue with the competency of shooters...I am very much of the view its all pushed by people with a vested interest. .

Those minutes make interesting reading. They have groups going off to come up with guidelines.. Where is the input of shooters into those guidelines...

Also, do they realise that a lot of vermin control is done at night?

This is making me nervous...

Grizzly 45

streamming live

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLbd1mGKBmf8I_RlUBxFC-A/live

cavan shooter

Berettaman it shouldn't be making you nervous it should make you angry. You've the EU trying to get at you and your sport and now the so called representatives that are fighting your corner are stitching you up.....:(

Grizzly 45

Tell us,is it some state secret as to who exactly s on the FCP for shooters and who is repersenting what? The easiest way to deal with this might be just best go talk to the organ grinder direct?

Grizzly 45

http://www.maltatoday.com.mt/news/national/73217/conference_highlights_mixed_reactions_to_amended_eu_firearms_directive#.WHEq5FWLSbw

cavan shooter

Grizzly 45 wrote:

Tell us,is it some state secret as to who exactly s on the FCP for shooters and who is repersenting what? The easiest way to deal with this might be just best go talk to the organ grinder direct?

It seems to be. After reading the minutes of the meetings it might be the better idea. Cause they aren't representing ordinary shooters.

Wadi14

Sorry guys, was having a look at the last few replies , where can I find the FCP meeting minutes

BattleCorp

I'd also like to see the FCP minutes.

Rimfire Shooter

I've said it on this forum before & I'm going to say it again as nobody seemed to notice.

ALL the shooting "reps" are basically commercial interests with their own financial vested interests!

NONE of them are there to represent actual shooters interests.

While some on this thread are admirably fighting EU led issues ye're missing what's going on here under ye're noses !

One of the FCP reps is actively pushing for competency testing and just happens to own a company providing such training. Other organisations represented on it also run courses they charge for, as mentioned!

Sports Coalition? Wasn't that Des Crofton?

Zxthinger

Anyone care to link the minutes of the FCP meeting

yubabill1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

streamming live

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLbd1mGKBmf8I_RlUBxFC-A/live

Great conference.

Watched it all.

Great camaraderie in the room.

EDIT; Common theme throughout was the belligerent attitude of the Council/Commission towards shooters and it made me think - the original firearms directive dates from a time when the then-EC had much less power and was seeking to expand its influence;

Since 1991, Maastricht (1993), Nice (2003) and Lisbon (2009) have passed into force, effectively propelling the EU towards a unitary superstate.

I'm not sure how I voted during Maastricht, but I definitely remember voting no to the others, twice against Nice when they made us vote the second time on it. I'm not saying I saw all this coming, but I certainly didn't like the proposals (took the time to try and read them).

Now, these guys see themselves as international thought-leaders.

More like groupthink IMHO.

Grizzly 45

Voted NO to all of them.Simply because any state ,organisation or group that wants more control of your life is not doing it for your benefit."it's for your own good "aplies to children ,not rational thinking adults.

gunny123

yubabill1 wrote: »

Great conference.

Watched it all.

Great camaraderie in the room.

EDIT; Common theme throughout was the belligerent attitude of the Council/Commission towards shooters and it made me think - the original firearms directive dates from a time when the then-EC had much less power and was seeking to expand its influence;

Since 1991, Maastricht (1993), Nice (2003) and Lisbon (2009) have passed into force, effectively propelling the EU towards a unitary superstate.

I'm not sure how I voted during Maastricht, but I definitely remember voting no to the others, twice against Nice when they made us vote the second time on it. I'm not saying I saw all this coming, but I certainly didn't like the proposals (took the time to try and read them).

Now, these guys see themselves as international thought-leaders.

More like groupthink IMHO.

Well i remember bertie and biffo basically saying "don't read it, just vote for it, stupid".

Cass

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'd also like to see the FCP minutes.

Zxthinger wrote: »

Anyone care to link the minutes of the FCP meeting

The official minutes are only available from the DoJ. Any other minutes you see or are given are those recorded by the party that publishes them.

Not to say they are wrong or not to be believed, but they would not be official.

To get them from the DoJ you'd need to request them either in writing to the DoJ or via an FOI.

Zxthinger

cavan shooter wrote: »

Berettaman it shouldn't be making you nervous it should make you angry. You've the EU trying to get at you and your sport and now the so called representatives that are fighting your corner are stitching you up.....:(

Took the time to watch this.. Time well spent.

Thanks for making it available

cavan shooter

Zxthinger wrote:

Anyone care to link the minutes of the FCP meeting

Just search sports coalition and the minutes are there

cavan shooter

Cass wrote:

To get them from the DoJ you'd need to request them either in writing to the DoJ or via an FOI.

Cass wrote:

The official minutes are only available from the DoJ. Any other minutes you see or are given are those recorded by the party that publishes them.

So that's worse. It's 100% The Sports Coalition ****ing us over.

BattleCorp

I'm sticking my head in the firing line here but I don't see a whole lot in those FCP minutes that are disastrous for shooters.

Granted, there's no real detail but it's not that bad, is it?

Limerick Sovereigns

Zxthinger wrote: »

Anyone care to link the minutes of the FCP meeting

http://www.sportscoalition.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Report-of-Firearms-Consultative-Panel-24th-October-2016.pdf

Grizzly 45

Update from NPWS on meeting regarding Night-time
shooting/lamping
The group established to examine issues around night shooting safety is
to finalise best practice guidance on night time shooting during
November and thereafter the guidelines are to be circulated to all
members of the Firearms Consultative Panel.
An Garda Síochána and the National Parks and Wildlife Service is to put
in place a mechanism for the sharing of information on firearms relevant
to wildlife crime and wildlife convictions.

So guidelines[not law] and what sort of a firearm might or might not be suitable for hunting deer or foxes during deer season?? Righttt !!!


Update on European Union initiatives in relation to Firearms
(A) Proposal for a DIRECTIVE OF THE EUROPEAN
PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL amending Council
Directive 91/477/EEC on control of the acquisition and possession of
weapons.
Following the agreement reached between Ministers in June, the
Directive is now the subject of negotiations between the Council led by
the Slovakian Presidency, the Parliament and the Commission. The
Department does not anticipate that the Regulation will have significant
implications for firearms regulation in Ireland.

The above is mostly ancient history by now.That has moved on so much since Nov.Only thing of worry would be "gold plating" legislation on mags possibly.And some former full autos converted to semi autos owned by a few lads here.

Commission implementing Regulation establishing common
guidelines on deactivation standards and techniques for ensuring
that deactivated firearms are rendered irreversibly inoperable

More ancient history. Has been changed again,as it is impossible to impliment in its current form EU wide.


[I]There is a shared concern that firearms certificate applicants should be
competent in the use of firearms and be able to demonstrate same to the
deciding member of An Garda Síochána. [1]
While An Garda Síochána will not endorse any specific training course,[2] it
will consider amending the Commissioners’ guidelines to place a greater
emphasis on this area in particular for first time firearms certificate
applicants.
The Department of Justice is drafting a best practice document for
firearms dealers which will also provide guidance in this area.[3]
The shooting groups acknowledged that they too have an important role
to play in ensuring their members are competent in the use of firearms.[4]
[/I]

[1] Who will that be exactly in AGS?? It would have to be someone competant in firearms handling and usage? As it stands right now only people in that field are[1] armed uniformed or plain clothes.[2] AGS firearms instructors RATED ASFIK to a particular firearm[will check this tomrrow] [3] Garda ballistics

[2] Cop out![no pun intended] So it is free for anyone to set up and train anyone right now.No suggestion of course criteria,what needs to be taught or whatever,or competance of the trainer.Who trains the trainer?

[3] WTF??????? Is this saying firearms dealers can now train people,advise them which course to take? This is wholly ambigious and unclear.

[4] Again WTF?? Is this now saying ranges are to train people in saftey??NARGC to train people in hunter saftey?? Very ambigious.

In short ,this sounds like alot of puff and padding with not much substance behind it.And a lot of "future plans" without much details on how it will be conducted or organised.
I think the best option for those concerned is;find out exactly who is on this comittee for whatever sector of your sports,and take your concerns directly to them and not via your clubs,organisations etc.IOW talk to the organ grinder not the monkey.

Cass

cavan shooter wrote: »

So that's worse. It's 100% The Sports Coalition ****ing us over.

They have been a proverbial thorn since their inception. Acting upon their own needs, without consultation, against the general will of the community, and have only split existing groups into two or more (range operators, RFDs, etc).

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'm sticking my head in the firing line here but I don't see a whole lot in those FCP minutes that are disastrous for shooters.

Granted, there's no real detail but it's not that bad, is it?

The minutes are just the summarised version of what was discussed. What you don't see, and was mentioned both above & in another thread, are the proposals of the so called "sports coalition" which outlines their goals. Goals which stand contrary to good shooting practices, against the will/wish of the overall shooting community and only serve to create more red tape and possible money making through unnecessary courses.

Add all this to the fact that some of their proposals are illegal and they still submitted their proposals in secret. Only disclosing the content of it, 2 days AFTER the contents had been discussed and released in the first report from the working group.

They called for:

• Temporary ban on semi auto centrefire rifles. Two problems with this is such a temporary cap is illegal, and secondly it has lead to people believing these guns are now banned and so cannot be licensed.
• The temporary cap they called for excluded classic/vintage rifles. Why? Bad enough they throw one group under the bus, but to try an make one other group exempt for whatever reason stinks of favoritism and a hidden agenda.
• Ballistic testing. They called for this and it's not got traction. Not too concerned with how its to be paid for, which sure as sh*t won't be the Government, so it falls to us to foot the bill. Then the small issue of how is this done? There are no facilities, only ranges. So the ranges will want to be compensated for time, equipment, etc.
• Graduated licensing. Again another illegal proposal. You'd have to apply for a license for something you don't want, have no need for just to get on the "first rung" of the firearm owner ladder. The illegal part comes from applying for a firearm with no good reason. IOW a fraudulent application.
• Continuing on from such a graduated licensing system i've already heard of plans for two separate "schools of excellence" where people can gain the necessary proficiency to pass such a course. Such "schools" will have no certification from DoJ/AGS as they won't put their names to anything nor and will only put more pressure on the community with fees, courses and all of this would bee never ending as it's a proficiency course. IOW it must be shown to be kept up to spec.
• Time lock safe. Not much to say here. At a minimum cost of around €10,000 who wants to buy a couple? There is the small matter of getting your own firearms, out of your own safe, at an unspecified moment if you happen to fancy a shot. FFS :mad:
• The banning of any pistol with a barrel length of less than 5 inches., Rimfire pistols. So anyone with anythin less than this, well tough sh*t.

So with all the above, the fact they done a prime time program that everyone else with an ounce of common sense knew to run from, and forced us on not one but multiple occasions to defend actual goals against those they put forward left us wondering if the sports coalition was actually a sub group of the DoJ or AGS. :rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

FOIA requests then for every meeting on the FCP /DOJ...If they exist that is..

Cass

They have to exist. Official meeting, and minutes must be kept.

Grizzly 45

https://firearms-united.com/2017/01/09/malta-conference/