MORE crap on the way.

yubabill1

Found this article from 6/3/17 from FU homepage.

This is a ban, they're openly saying it.

"French Greens shadow rapporteur Pascal Durand also supported modifying the existing fi rearms directive "to tackle security problems linked to the trade and possession of weapons and to improve security measures on gun control in the EU in general."

According to Durand, the measures will address "virtually all key issues", particularly on prohibiting semiautomatic weapons, which "pose a real threat, given that they can easily be converted to automatic firearms, or have the capacity to cause considerable damage due to the high number of rounds they fire." "

https://www.theparliamentmagazine.eu/articles/opinion/firearms-directive-has-commission-got-it-wrong

Grizzly 45

Nothing new from the global water melon collective..AKA the Green party.
Durand obviously wouldn't know a full auto rifle if it climbed out of the compost toilet and bit him on the backside.Plus,he isnt exactly paying attention to this at all.Considering that the whole civillian semi auto thing has been pretty much done and dusted,and the issue is still with former full autos that have been converted to semi auto and magazine capacity and classification thereof.

Thing to take away from this is simply the Greens are globally NO friends of hunters or gun owners and are a utter threat to our lifestyle and have zero clue on how hunting is a vital part of nature these days. A sick cult that is no more open to differing voices as ISIL is to open tolerance of Western ideas.

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Thing to take away from this is simply the Greens are globally NO friends of hunters or gun owners and are a utter threat to our lifestyle and have zero clue on how hunting is a vital part of nature these days. A sick cult that is no more open to differing voices as ISIL is to open tolerance of Western ideas.

The greens are a joke, sadly they are a joke that causes damage. Afaik the people who vote green are not farmers, market gardeners or gamekeepers, but Irish times/guardian reading prius drivers, firmly rooted in dublin 4 and environs, who wouldn't know one end of a gun from the other. Heaven help us.

Grizzly 45

Or a bunch of continential blow ins,who consider Ireland some kind of green utopia that must be preserved no matter what.:rolleyes:

yubabill1

gunny123 wrote: »

The greens are a joke, sadly they are a joke that causes damage. Afaik the people who vote green are not farmers, market gardeners or gamekeepers, but Irish times/guardian reading prius drivers, firmly rooted in dublin 4 and environs, who wouldn't know one end of a gun from the other. Heaven help us.

THE EU IS SELLING THIS AS A SEMI AUTO BAN TO THE PUBLIC.

The vote is next Tuesday, please, please send an email to any MEP - I know everybody has a pain in the H*ole about this (including me), but this is the actual last time.

And it works better than you might think, even if you don't get a reply.

BattleCorp

This is the only reply I've gotten so far. It doesn't fill me full of confidence. I really really don't like the parts that say "provided their Member State agrees".

Dear Mr BattleCorp,

Thank you for your email to Brian regarding the upcoming vote on the Firearms Directive.

Brian is currently in hospital for medical treatment and asked me to respond on his behalf. Please accept his apologies as unfortunately he will not be in Parliament next week.



Brian has been in touch with his colleague, the Internal Market Committee Chair and Rapporteur, Vicky Ford MEP, who has done tremendous work on the Firearms Directive. Ms Ford has asked him to pass on her comments below to his constituents:



Firearms Directive

There has been a European law on firearms since the 1990s. This did require reviewing, especially regarding the provisions for inadequately deactivated firearms. However the changes that were proposed by the European Commission in 2015 were unworkable and would have put disproportional restrictions on legal owners. There was a vote in the European Parliament Committee to reject the entire proposal but this was not supported by a majority. Instead the Committee proposed significant amendments in order to protect the interests of citizens.



It is not possible for the European Parliament to make these changes alone as it also needs the approval of the European Council which consists of national governments of the 28 different countries that are members of the EU. Many of these governments wanted to introduce even more new rules and did not accept the amendments from the Parliament.



Significant Amendments

During the months of scrutiny the Parliament worked with many different groups of legal owners and secured many very significant improvements to the proposal including:



· Removing the restriction on items that “resemble” automatic firearms, as criteria based on cosmetic appearance is legally unworkable;

· Reintroducing provisions to enable reservists, museums and collectors, and film makers to continue ownership with Member State approval and strict safety procedures;

· Enabling re-enactors and holders of deactivated firearms to continue ownership whilst also ensuring that deactivation standards are robust across Europe. Technical issues with deactivation standards have been re-considered;

· The issue of poorly deactivated “salute and acoustic weapons” which were sold without authorisation, but then reconverted and used in certain recent terror attacks has been addressed;

· Provisions to support younger owners have been retained, as has recognition of the needs of those in remote rural areas;

· Strong conditions for storage were introduced in line with common practice in many Member States;

· Proposals for a controversial mandatory medical test have been removed, instead each country will need to have in place its own systems for medical assessment;

· New measures for clearer marking and better information sharing between Member States are introduced but with care taken not to put overly burdensome requirements on small dealers.



Nevertheless there are some outstanding questions from owners.



Target and Sports Shooters

The European Parliament negotiators believe that people participating in target and sports shooting should be able to continue to do so, provided that this is accepted in the Member State concerned. The Commission’s original approach would have placed many of the firearms used by target shooters into the Category A which is restricted for civilians. However after the Parliament amendments each Member State has the power to give Category A authorisations to target shooters, provided the individual is actively practising for or participating in shooting competitions.



The Parliament negotiators worked closely with national and international sports shooting organisations, including IPSC, to ensure that the authorisation covers those entering the sport as well as those already competing. The current freedom of choice of equipment used by competitors in their shooting disciplines can continue and, in order to facilitate continued participation in international competitions, the rules governing the European Firearms Pass will be updated to cover firearms, including Category A firearms, held by such target shooters.



Many firearms commonly used for sports shooting, such as centre-fire semi-automatics, are not themselves affected.



This is one of several areas where the Member States sought the inclusion of more rigid and less workable provisions, but this was rejected by the Parliament team. If target shooters are concerned about how the new proposals will work in practice they should work with the authorities in their own Member States as it will be a national decision whether or not to authorise such activities.



Magazines and loading devices

The European Council and the Commission both wanted to ban all high capacity magazines. The Parliament negotiating team did not support this. However the Council refused to accept that there should be no new limitations on magazines and loading devices. Here again the Member States sought more restrictive and less workable provisions which were rejected by the Parliament team. After much negotiation the following was offered:



· Loading devices themselves, including magazines, are not restricted per se.



· Semi-automatic centre fire firearms which allow the firing of more than A certain number of rounds without reloading will now become Category A firearms only if a loading device with a capacity exceeding a set number of rounds is inserted into it or is part of the firearm. For short firearms, the limit is at 20 rounds and for long firearms at 10. Target shooters, existing holders, collectors, reservists and certain other specialist users will be able to continue holding such firearms and use the higher capacity magazine provided their Member State agrees and issues them the appropriate Category A authorisation.



· People who do not have a Category A authorisation but have a Category B firearm and who are also found in possession of a high capacity magazine will risk having their authorisation to hold firearms removed. There is no restriction in the Directive on re-applying for an authorisation in the future.



· New purchases of high capacity magazines are restricted to those with a Category A authorisation.



Reservists

Under the agreement Member States continue to have the ability to organise and protect their national reserve or public defence forces.



Member States will be able to give Category A authorisations to individuals for the protection of the security of critical infrastructure, commercial shipping, high-value convoys and sensitive premises, as well as for national defence. Member States may issue or permit the acquisition and possession of firearms for those purposes. This meets the needs of countries like Finland.



Armed forces, the police and certain public authorities are not regulated by the Directive and there is special recognition of the Swiss situation.



Collectors and Museums

The European Commission and the Council insisted that collectors and museums fall within the scope of the Directive under the revision, as in many Member States they are required to follow existing national rules already. Once in force, the Directive will require collectors to follow the same acquisition and possession rules as other firearms holders.



The Parliament negotiating team worked hard to secure a special authorisation for collectors to continue hold Category A firearms. Member States will therefore have the ability to give Category A authorisations in exceptional cases to collectors subject to strict security measures. These authorisations can be given when demonstrating good cause, which can be for historical and research purposes, as is the case for collectors licensed at present.



Firearms of particular historical importance will not be covered by the new marking requirements, nor will marking requirements apply to antiques.



The collection of ammunition is permitted and rules regarding the marking of ammunition have not changed.



Automatic firearms converted into semi-automatic firearms

The Parliament’s initial approach was that automatic firearms which have been converted into semi-automatic firearms should remain in Category B if the conversion was irreversible. However this was completely rejected by the Council and the Commission.



The Parliament team secured a grandfathering provision that will allow existing owners to continue to own, transfer, inherit or sell these firearms to others who have appropriate authorisation, provided their own Member State agrees.



These types of firearms will also be available to target and sports shooters who receive a Category A authorisations.



Next steps

The provisional deal needs to be voted by the full Parliament in an upcoming plenary session on 14 March and formally approved by the EU Council of Ministers.



There will also be a full debate in the chamber of the Parliament on the morning of 14 March, where MEPs from across Parliament will be able to speak on the matter. MEPs may table amendments to the negotiated position but if these are passed it does risk destabilising the entire package as the proposal is then returned for a “second reading”. At this stage the Parliament is not so involved in the detailed negotiation and there is a risk that the Council reverts to its much more rigid approach.



In order to protect the rights of legal owners it is important to keep engaging with national governments as soon as possible and especially during the “transposition” process when governments update their own national laws. Individual Member States have the power and the flexibility to grant their own authorisations and exemptions for the many types of genuine legal owners. It is important that citizens hold their governments to account, and ensure that those powers are applied to the fullest extent.



I hope the above is helpful to you and again, apologies for this inconvenience.

Kind regards



Annette Lawson

Personal Assistant



Brian Crowley MEP

Maryborough Lodge

Maryborough Hill

Douglas

CORK

Ireland

123shooter

Can i ask to cheat on reading all through this thread again : Does this attempted gun grab still affect pump action shotguns like the Remington 870 which comes with a magazine plug?

Grizzly 45

123shooter wrote: »

Can i ask to cheat on reading all through this thread again : Does this attempted gun grab still affect pump action shotguns like the Remington 870 which comes with a magazine plug?

Technically said NO.
BUT it does not make any distinctions between centre fire semi auto rifled and smooth bore firearms.Now,if you have a Remmy or any other shotgun CAPABLE of holding more than 10 shots...Welcome to CAT A [prohibited] country. Ergo it has a "loading device" capable of doing so.IE some of the box mag IPSC or Saiga,Adkal designs. However if your Remmy has up to ten shots in it,it is still a CAT B EU class gun,as is any semi auto rifle or shotgun with a ten round mag

See how stupid this whole thing is? Its our .22 pistol 5 shot/10 shot on an EU scale. WHAT DIFFERENCE is it whether I have a bunch of ten round mags and duct tape them end to end or buy a starfish mag holder and then legally have 60 rounds in six 10 round dispensers,or 20 rounds in 3 dispensers?:rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

BattleCorp wrote: »

This is the only reply I've gotten so far. It doesn't fill me full of confidence. I really really don't like the parts that say "provided their Member State agrees".

That's the standard VF letter that has been going around for the last 14 days.
As it stands this is about as good as it's going to get at the moment. Don't think we will have the MEP numbers to dismiss this out of hand and get it to a 2nd EU reading.Which means there is a good chance of the whole thing being revised and possibly for the worse for us gun owners.We apprently have alot of sympathy in Brussels at the moment and the fact is we have retained about 85 to 90% of what we could have lost totally.But what is worrisome is the fact there are some glaring problems that remain and could become very troublesome and catch innocents by mistake.
Things like the magazines.There are people in Europe who ONLY collect gun mags,and never want the gun to go with it as it is alot simpler as mags are not considerd firearm components. They could be done for being illegal mag suppliers in the future.
Or say you have a Glock and an AR derivative that shoots 9mm.You can have a Glock mag with a plus 3 conversion bringing it to 20 rounds .Legal as it is a short arm.But if you were inspected and found with the AR 9mm.You will lose all guns as the 20 round Glock mag COULD be inserted into the AR making it CAT A,[unless of course you have a CAT A exemption,which moght be fun to get here in Ireland of course].Idiotic things like this are the hiccups now.
However on the good side is,this might be delayed until after the French elections as there is still considerable problems with the deact criteria and VF might pull this debate until this is sorted out.If it goes past the French election and Le Pen wins.This might slide down the EU list of importance like nothing,or it could be dealt with like the Nazis flying courts in the last days of Hitlers Berlin.A farce of a 5 minute trial and then up against the nearest wall. Or whatever the Brussels version is of dealing with unfinished busisness.
Intresting times ahead again.

Grizzly 45

https://firearms-united.com/2017/03/10/voting-day-approaching/

Grizzly 45

Ok a bit sort of the "Sky is blue,water is wet,confirm scientists!" type. but at least its offical and quoteable .There is no link between crime and gun ownership!


https://www.all4shooters.com/en/Shooting/law/ANPAM-link-between-ownership-of-firearms-and-homicides/

yubabill1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ok a bit sort of the "Sky is blue,water is wet,confirm scientists!" type. but at least its offical and quoteable .There is no link between crime and gun ownership!


https://www.all4shooters.com/en/Shooting/law/ANPAM-link-between-ownership-of-firearms-and-homicides/

FWIW just sent that to all our MEP's.

Grizzly 45

I'd advise not having anything heavy or firearms around when you watch this for your computor screens and your blood pressure sake!:mad:
]http://www.europarl.europa.eu/ep-live/en/plenary/video?date=14-03-2017
Some of them make our Daill bulshters look tame!

Grizzly 45

Lost by 391 to 178:(:(:(:(
Vicky Ford and Sir Julian King got their amendments thru... Well at least we still have about 90% of what we fought for and diluted the draft of Nov 2015 .
That is all thanks to you ladies and gentlemen who lobbied,wrote ,signed and phoned your Tds ,MEPs etc.
Offical statement will be forthcoming in due course.
One thing is for sure..It has now created thousands more anti EU people.Mostly gun owners,and of course this will make us all safer from terrorism.

yubabill1

Been reading the amendments adopted in the vote

Correction: Was reading proposed amendments - thought they had changed the text in Trilogue earlier.

10 round stands for semi auto centre fire.

M Harkin voted against this text.

M McGuinness, Brian Hayes, Nessa Childers voted for the ban.

Moylan and Carthy abstained.

See how they voted

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-%2F%2FEP%2F%2FNONSGML%2BPV%2B20170314%2BRES-RCV%2BDOC%2BPDF%2BV0%2F%2FSK&language=SK

123shooter

The only people in favour of the EU are EU politicians, Merkal, Hollande and Irish People.

Wait until Brexit and if LePen win the French election in 4 or 5 weeks possibly.......... No EU left?

Grizzly 45

yubabill1 wrote: »

Been reading the amendments adopted in the vote

Euro firearms pass specifically to allow Cat A (prohibited) firearms where exempted;

U18 can access firearms.

Amendment 94 - specifically about what is Cat A - says a long firearm is Cat A if (a) can be made less than 60cm by folding etc (b) if it can hold more than 21 rounds

Looks like 20 round mags approved for handguns and long guns;

NOPE! Ten rounds for long guns,20 rounds for handguns:(





Euro firearms pass specifically to allow Cat A (prohibited) firearms where exempted; Last two words are very important!! "WHERE EXEMPTED"...

Can you give us one reason that requires us to have a 20 round mag in either pistol or rifle in Ireland??? Cant think of any reasons you need one,maybe if you are shooting IPSC outside of the republic..But for domestic usage?? This DOES NOT MEAN that semis are banned,just if you put a 20 round [or above 10 rounds ]"loading device " in one it is CAT A. Have two ten round mage taped end to end its perfectly legal CAT B rifle.

The foldable CAT A is another farsce! Its OAL length.So if you stick a longer muzzle break on it to make it 64cms and put a ten rounder in it .It stays legal..Guess what the 2017 IWA had on offer already??;)

Well this battle is now over,and it is a win,for us albeit somewhat pyhrric.The war continues and now the EU has managed to alienate another few hunderd thousand citizens and make others doubly anti EU,as well as now awakening the EU gun lobby. 25% of the EU parliment saw thru this BS and 75% voted as good sheep and were told to do. In 2005 only 5% of the EU parliment supported us!!Just consider those stats for a moment.Now we organise,re group,rethink,and return in 5 years to show this is utter BS and will not have stopped any massacres which are sure to happen any time soon,anywhere in our EU "community."

M Harkin voted against this text. As she would.

M McGuinness, Brian Hayes, Nessa Childers voted for the ban. Am surprised at that,but it will be rememberd!!

Moylan and Carthy abstained. Another two washouts!

yubabill1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Looks like 20 round mags approved for handguns and long guns;

NOPE! Ten rounds for long guns,20 rounds for handguns:(





Euro firearms pass specifically to allow Cat A (prohibited) firearms where exempted; Last two words are very important!! "WHERE EXEMPTED"...

Can you give us one reason that requires us to have a 20 round mag in either pistol or rifle in Ireland??? Cant think of any reasons you need one,maybe if you are shooting IPSC outside of the republic..But for domestic usage?? This DOES NOT MEAN that semis are banned,just if you put a 20 round [or above 10 rounds ]"loading device " in one it is CAT A. Have two ten round mage taped end to end its perfectly legal CAT B rifle.

The foldable CAT A is another farsce! Its OAL length.So if you stick a longer muzzle break on it to make it 64cms and put a ten rounder in it .It stays legal..Guess what the 2017 IWA had on offer already??;)

Well this battle is now over,and it is a win,for us albeit somewhat pyhrric.The war continues and now the EU has managed to alienate another few hunderd thousand citizens and make others doubly anti EU,as well as now awakening the EU gun lobby. 25% of the EU parliment saw thru this BS and 75% voted as good sheep and were told to do. In 2005 only 5% of the EU parliment supported us!!Just consider those stats for a moment.Now we organise,re group,rethink,and return in 5 years to show this is utter BS and will not have stopped any massacres which are sure to happen any time soon,anywhere in our EU "community."

M Harkin voted against this text. As she would.

M McGuinness, Brian Hayes, Nessa Childers voted for the ban. Am surprised at that,but it will be rememberd!!

Moylan and Carthy abstained. Another two washouts!

Yea, I changed my post since.

Czech republic will now vote on drafting all firearms holders into reserve defence force to bypass this directive.

Maybe a legal challenge in order, but we will have to wait till this comes into force.

Sickened that MMcG & many others put their lunch plans before democracy, but they will reap what they sow because democracy is a two-way street and shooters get their own vote.

BattleCorp

Now we have to watch our crowd to make sure they don't gold plate these proposals and add in extra sh1te and blame it on the EU.

yubabill1

This is for the benefit of those who are paid to read these pages -

There are no provisions in this directive for the surrender/disposal of what-will-be-illegal high capacity magazines.

Seems the powers-that-be in Europe implicity conspire to create an underground black market in high-cap magazines, because they know the Eastern Europeans in former Soviet states will not surrender them.

With Putin chewing away at the borders of Europe and Finland and Sweden re-introducing military conscription as a consequence (and Czech republic to vote on drafting all firearms holders into its reserve defence forces), I'm not so sure that I can blame them.

IS/Daesh are not the main threat Europe faces by a long way.

Give it 5 years, lads.

gunny123

Pictures and details released of the "reacts" seized in Spain. Seems like a coincidence with the timing of the press release :rolleyes:.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/thousands-guns-bound-terrorist-groups-seized-spain-n733286

Grizzly 45

gunny123 wrote: »

Pictures and details released of the "reacts" seized in Spain. Seems like a coincidence with the timing of the press release :rolleyes:.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/thousands-guns-bound-terrorist-groups-seized-spain-n733286

Its called FAKE NEWS these days..:)

There are no provisions in this directive for the surrender/disposal of what-will-be-illegal high capacity magazines.

Nor a definition of what exactly "loading devices" actually are. What part will be illegal to own, or if converting them to ten shot is acceptable? Or what you do when your 20 shot 223 can hold 10 rounds of 458 SOCOM?

Oh and how will you ban magazines when the Russians have so many of them ,its cheaper to use AK mags as pot hole filler than actual gravel?? And what is the definition of a "loading device " to use EU terminology?A metal /plastic tube,a spring,and two bits of metal..Unless assembled into a loading device,they are nothing but parts and fully legal to own.

Grizzly 45

BattleCorp wrote: »

Now we have to watch our crowd to make sure they don't gold plate these proposals and add in extra sh1te and blame it on the EU.

15 months for this to be implimented EU wide... Stay sharp and watch our 12 and 6.:eek:

BattleCorp

gunny123 wrote: »

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/thousands-guns-bound-terrorist-groups-seized-spain-n733286

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Its called FAKE NEWS these days..:)

I'm still sleepy so forgive me if I'm being thick but can you clarify for me what happened with the gun seizures mentioned above?

Are the two pics fake? Is the story fake? What's the real story?

Grizzly 45

In Breif...This guy who owns the arms company is a rather outspoken about the Spanish gun laws and has had a tangle or two with the Spanish authorthies with him being exeronarated. It seems that these "gun parts "seized are the legal remains of the Spanish arms industry,like Star ,Astra,LLama,etc.IOW the sole supplies of spare parts for those brands.Apprently Spain has changed already its either conditions for storage of arms or deact requirements,and this company fell foul of one or both,as far as I can gather..So it seems this was the prime raid reason...
What stinks is;

This happened literally a month ago in Feb with little or no media play up bar SKY and some Murdoch rags.
The Spanish police dragged in Europol [the EU FBI] for some reason,as this is local Spanish law violation,not EU law legislation.
The case under the Spanish inqusitional judical system has been locked down as secret pending all findings.
It gets played up yesterday,coincidentaly when the EU is debating firearms legislation,[and last month before the iMCO readings]and ends up on all MSM.


Link to the story.[in German sorry]. https://german-rifle-association.de/yi6MW

https://firearms-united.com/2017/01/17/guilty-until-proven/#more-2269

Grizzly 45

Yesterday the European Parliament meeting in Plenary in Strasbourg voted on the Provisional Agreement reached in December following the Trilogues. The rejection of the Commission Proposal as well as the amendments proposed to improve the text failed to make it due to the first two votes:

AM 109 (ENF) & AM 123 (EFDD): Rejection of the Commission proposal
For: 123
Against: 562
Abstentions: 14

AM 107 (Committee): Approval of Provisional Agreement
For: 491
Against: 178
Abstentions: 28

30% of all the MEPs present for the vote did not approve the Provisional Agreement. This is a significant amount.

The Commission lost its bid to confiscate your legal property and destroy your passion for sport shooting, hunting, collecting and other legitimate activities in which you use your firearms. It lost its crazed bid to destroy historical firearms in museums and private collections. It lost all this in spite of breaking its own rules, slandering innocent citizens, lying consistently and presenting false statistical data.

The Commission lost because people like you came together to defend our common ideals and interests and supported us in every way possible in our efforts to gain the support of sensible MEPs. We reciprocated your support by carrying out all our work voluntarily in order to make the most of our limited resources. We are eternally grateful to you as we are to those MEPs who worked just as hard as we did to bring about this victory against all odds.

Nevertheless Parliament ultimately failed you by not attempting to amend the text further in order to remove serious pitfalls that will come to haunt us in the future. It also failed you by not being bold enough to consign this legislative mess to the rubbish bin where it belongs. It failed you by choosing political exigency over your civil liberties.

However the biggest loser in this entire process has been the EU itself and its credibility with millions of honest citizens like you who will neither forget nor forgive it for the way it has treated them.

While we salute those MEPs who stood their ground, we should also bear in mind that many MEPs genuinely feared that were the Provisional Agreement not approved today, any change in its text would have resulted in a second reading in which the Council would have a greater say and Parliament a lesser one, possibly leading to a far more restrictive Directive. Thus we should refrain from accusing MEPs who did not vote for the amendments in the belief that this was for our own good. If anything, the circumstances illustrate all that is wrong in the EU’s structure and practices and how politicians are forced to make difficult decisions because of its unduly complex and undemocratic legislative process. They are as much victims of the system as the citizens who are forced to abide by its rulings.

The war is far from over. The battle to ensure that our member state authorities implement the Directive in the least restrictive way starts now. We shall also consider all legal means of challenging the revised Directive at EU and national levels.

Keep strong, keep united!

tac foley

G45 - you just beat me to it. Read my comment on Facetwitch.

tac

outinthefields

Vicky Ford spells it out.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/plenary/EN/vod.html?mode=chapter&vodLanguage=EN&startTime=20170314-09:00:48-737#

Grizzly 45

She wouldn't be yelled at now by both pro and anti gun sides if this had been held out in the open instead of secret cabals known as Trilouges,where her fellow countryman Sir Peter King could yell and thump the table at 3:30 AM demanding semi auto and mag bans.What would it have been to the UK anyway?They have their gun bans,[for what good it is doing them] and are leaving the EU.So why crap this rotten egg in the nest??:mad:

Zxthinger

So where internet sale banned? And what's the time line on the implementation of these proceedings.