Question about right to work

LegacyUser

Going to go unreg for this.

I work for a large US MNC here in southeast. We got an email from our HR team saying that all employees have to present their passports, and GNIB cards if applicable. The company will then copy the passport, and enter all the details of the passport into a database of people employed in the company. The copies of the passports will then be destroyed.

The company is saying that collecting this data is a requirement of Irish employment and immigration law, and that it is compulsory for all employees to provide the information. If we don't supply the information, then disciplinary action may be taken.

My questions are two fold:
Legal:
1) Is there a legal requirements within Irish law (either employment or immigration) for what they are doing? If there is a legal basis for it, what piece of legislation is it in?
2) If there is a requirement to supply information on my right to work in Ireland, does it have to be a passport, or are there documents that can be used?
3) Can I be fired, or face disciplinary actions, for not providing the information?

Other:
1) What questions should I be asking the company about the database, how they are storing in the information, and length of storage?
2) Is there any requirements about the storage of this data (such as the Safe Harbour requirements), etc.?

Jim2007

If the company can not satisfy themselves that you are legally entitled to work in Ireland then they have no choice but to terminate your contract. The rest is up to you.

Mrs OBumble

MNC_User_1 wrote: »

1) Is there a legal requirements within Irish law (either employment or immigration) for what they are doing? If there is a legal basis for it, what piece of legislation is it in?
2) If there is a requirement to supply information on my right to work in Ireland, does it have to be a passport, or are there documents that can be used?

Yes. It is standard to have to prove that you have a right to work in pretty much any country. I don't know the name of the specific law, but I'm sure that there's a legal requirement for companies to:

1) check it when you are hired, and
2) do periodic re-checks.


Once upon a time, a birth-certificate would have been enough: if you were born in a country, you were automatically a citizen. That changed a few years ago. People affected by the change (born in Ireland, but not automatically Irish citizens) are not yet old enough to be entering the workforce (they're barely into primary school!).

But nevertheless most companies do look for a passport rather than a birth certificate - among other things, a passport is a lot harder to fake.


TBH, if you're not prepared to prove that you have a right to work here, it's going to raise big questions for most companies about what you're hiding or up to. If it's simply that you're to mean to renew your passport (I'm assuming that since you're working you're not too poor - which can be a real issue for unemployed people), then you could try discussing it with them. But it looks odd.

Diziet

I would have thought that even an out of date passport would establish your right to work in Ireland, provided it is clear that the passport is yours.

Clauric

OP, I'm not sure about the legalities or otherwise of your question. Somebody more versed in law or HR could answer that better than I could.

With regard to the passport, I too would be loathe to hand over a copy of my passport. A passport is an international travel document, and is not meant to confer any legally established right to work, or other such privileges. There are people in Ireland who carry Irish passports who are not Irish citizens, and have no right to work, but carry them because they need to travel and can get no other passport.

I would ask your employer for specifics about the database, including access and retention. I would also enquire about how they propose to deal with employees who don't have a passport, or don't wish to use their passport.

You might also contact the Data Protection Commissioner to enquire as to what their view of this matter is.

Jim2007

Diziet wrote: »

I would have thought that even an out of date passport would establish your right to work in Ireland, provided it is clear that the passport is yours.

Not at all, I dual national I could very easily give up my Irish citizenship and still have an out of date passport.

Bogger77

Technically, it's not your passport, it still belongs to the Dept of Foreign Affairs.

Have you ever had to travel for work? It's entirely possible for people not to have a passport, esp. if people only travel to the UK.

I work for one of the largest, if not large MNC in the state, and I've never supplied my passport details, other than to the travel agency when organizing travel.

Jim2007

Clauric wrote: »

There are people in Ireland who carry Irish passports who are not Irish citizens, and have no right to work, but carry them because they need to travel and can get no other passport.

Please provide us with an example non-citizen who can apply for an Irish passport through normal means? Because as far as I am aware you must be a citizen to apply for a passport and as such it is a very good indicator of your right to work here.

I am a ware of people who carry Irish travel documents, but that is a different matter.

seamus

MNC_User_1 wrote: »

Going to go unreg for this.

I work for a large US MNC here in southeast. We got an email from our HR team saying that all employees have to present their passports, and GNIB cards if applicable. The company will then copy the passport, and enter all the details of the passport into a database of people employed in the company. The copies of the passports will then be destroyed.

OK, this all sounds by-the-book. They are not entitled to retain a copy of your passport, the purpose of the copy is obviously just to give them a chance to go through each and read it properly before disposing of it - i.e. so they're not holding onto your actual passport for more than five minutes.

My questions are two fold:
Legal:
1) Is there a legal requirements within Irish law (either employment or immigration) for what they are doing? If there is a legal basis for it, what piece of legislation is it in?
2) If there is a requirement to supply information on my right to work in Ireland, does it have to be a passport, or are there documents that can be used?

Your employer has a legal obligation to ensure that everyone they employ has a right to work in Ireland. I don't have the legislation to hand, but I don't think that needs to be proven anyway.
In that regard, in the event that they were audited, they will be asked for employee records, including nationality and proof of each employee's right to work in Ireland. Employers are required by the employment permits act to keep a record of all employees they have who are on work permits.

Here's where the crunch comes in - just because someone looks and sounds Irish, doesn't mean they are. You also have a discrimination/equal rights issue - you can't go around asking all of the people who "look foreign" to provide their passports.

So HR modern good practice is to ask all employees without discrimination to provide a copy of their passport, which is one of the few ways of "officially" establishing someone's citizenship. If you're really loathe to take a photocopy of your passport, then I'm sure they can come up with a much more complicated way of establishing your nationality that involves multiple pieces of sensitive documentation rather than one.

Can they do this? Yes. And they should be doing this.

3) Can I be fired, or face disciplinary actions, for not providing the information?

Short answer, yes. It's a reasonable request from your HR department, and their argument is that by failing to provide these documents, you are putting the company at legal risk.
Assuming you are being asked for the document without prejudice, then they can argue that they cannot prove you are entitled to work in Ireland and therefore must terminate your employment.

1) What questions should I be asking the company about the database, how they are storing in the information, and length of storage?

You can if you want. Probably overkill though. Chances are they're using some large HRM system like SAP and the data is stored in databases in a company datacentre. Every employer will store information about their employees, so they won't be doing anything that you won't encounter anywhere else.

2) Is there any requirements about the storage of this data (such as the Safe Harbour requirements), etc.?

You can ask them where their data on Irish employees is being stored in the absence of the availability of Safe Harbor.

Mrs OBumble

Bogger77 wrote: »

I work for one of the largest, if not large MNC in the state, and I've never supplied my passport details, other than to the travel agency when organizing travel.

So how do they know you are entitled to work here?

Jim2007

Bogger77 wrote: »

I work for one of the largest, if not large MNC in the state, and I've never supplied my passport details, other than to the travel agency when organizing travel.

Well that could mean that the company is unaware of their obligations or they are willing to pay the fines if caught, which can be up to €250,000 per case.

Interested Observer

I also work for a multi national and had to bring in my passport on day 1. Thought it was a perfectly reasonable request.

eeguy

I got a Christmas job once and was asked for my passport.
I've been asked on most placed I've worked.
I thought it was standard to ask for it?

Lux23

Jim2007 wrote: »

Well that could mean that the company is unaware of their obligations or they are willing to pay the fines if caught, which can be up to €250,000 per case.

I work for the public service and I didn't need to supply any ID when I joined earlier this year. How did they know I was able to work in Ireland?

Bogger77

Jim2007 wrote: »

Well that could mean that the company is unaware of their obligations or they are willing to pay the fines if caught, which can be up to €250,000 per case.

possession or not of passport, does not equal right to work.

in fact, in my team, there's several Irish people (born pre referendum on citizenship to people born in Ireland) , and they don't have a passport, some didn't even have a drivers license when they started work here.

My first passport was paid for by my employers, and so was the renewal.

I supplied my P45 on the day I started, plus my bank details, nothing else.
I was asked to declare my nationality on a form, but that was it.

This company has procedures for everything, so I doubt they've left themselves open for any fines.

Bogger77

They are still retaining Passport number, they may not be keeping the scanned copy, but Passport Number is still sensitive personal information, and is as sensitive as the passport scan, for example, they could use the Passport Number, and DOB to check out your US border entry details.

And is definitely something I'd like exact details on how it was being stored, and who had access to that data.

Chances are this is something being initiated by local HR, so if you have a privacy office in the company, fire them off an email, asking the storage and access details of the data, and how long it will be retained for. If anything like local HR in some MNC's I've worked for, it'll be kept on an excel sheet store on a open fileshare.

If they are using a passport as proof of nationality, they don't need to store the any details from the passport. It should be a case of look at passport, and store Nationality on the database.

Jim2007

Bogger77 wrote: »

If they are using a passport as proof of nationality, they don't need to store the any details from the passport. It should be a case of look at passport, and store Nationality on the database.

On the contrary, they need to be able to show that they have indeed confirmed your nationality and under the DPA there is not reason why they cannot store such information as it falls well within the definition of personal data needed to conduct business.

An employer may ask to see your passport at recruitment stage if this is necessary to show that you are entitled to work in Ireland. An employer may note such passport details on your personnel file. It should not be necessary for an employer to retain a copy of your passport and such action could be a breach of the Data Protection Acts.