Could Real Madrid sell Ronaldo?

The Golden Miller

price690 wrote: »

Your sense is not welcome around here

I think alot of Ronaldo fans resent the media portrayal of Messi as the saint and Ronaldo as the petulant sulk.

Leaving it aside what they are like as men, you have quite succintly summed it up there. Nobody can dispute Ronaldo is a world class goalscorer, the best there has ever been.

But Messi can play from deep when hes not getting joy, trying different lines of attack, he can play on the shoulder of the last defender, the play behind the striker, play as the main man up front. And he can do all of these to a world class level.

Along with all you have mentioned above, he is more flexible and can sacrifice personal glory when hes having an off day doing what he does best, in order to bring team mates into play.

It seems that because they have a similar goals and assists return, you're clueless if you don't say they are as good as one another, while ignoring their actual game.

deaddonkey15

The Golden Miller wrote: »

You see, you don't seem to understand that in all games he plays in his performances are a disgrace in open play. That Man U final appearance wasn't a one off. He played the way he always did, just didn't score to paper over the putrid performance. As for the free kicks I agree obviously, but it also applies to his long shots i.e attempt them so much and one is bound to go in now and again. How much possession does he waste attempting them when good possession could have been recycled? Whens the last time you seen him beat 3 or 4 men? That is before we even get into when did he last score after beating 3 or 4 men? Don't think I've ever seen him beat a man against a top defense.

Ronaldo is a world class goal scorer. The best at what he does in today's game with Messi. But Muller was better at doing it. But Muller isn't generally recognised in the same league as your Zidane's, Platini's, Maradona's and Cruyff's. There's a difference between being the best in what you are expected to do, and taking it to the next level and being one of the best ever. Messi can contribute all the goals and assists Ronaldo supplies, but what sets him apart is his vision, creativity, ball control, link up play. He helps orchestrate the attacks, set the temp, dictate the play aswell as providing all the goals and assists.

Ronaldo did all that at United. Madrid turned him into a pure goal scorer. Ronaldo still plays his part in plenty of Madrid's attacking moves that he doesn't score/assist in.

PhlegmyMoses

price690 wrote: »

Have many people said he isn't one of the greatest though?

Is saying Messi is a better player the same saying Ronaldo isn't one of the greatest?

The thread is called "Could Real sell Ronaldo?" but a load of people are waffling on about Messi and whether Ronaldo is world class.

On the actual topic, I don't really want him at United as bizarre as that sounds. He is an unbelievable player but is getting older and after seeing what happened to RVP and Falcao, it's hard to shake off the worry that a decline can be sharp and terminal once you get to a certain age.

PSG to replace Ibra.

Billy86

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Ronaldo did all that at United. Madrid turned him into a pure goal scorer. Ronaldo still plays his part in plenty of Madrid's attacking moves that he doesn't score/assist in.

Above is what you actually posted, below is what TGM sees it as on his screen:

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

.

For some people, it's not worth even bothering - it has been pointed out to him at length multiple times in the past, yet he still pretends nobody has addressed the issue. It's beyond even selective reading.

The Moldy Gowl

price690 wrote: »

Have many people said he isn't one of the greatest though?

Is saying Messi is a better player the same saying Ronaldo isn't one of the greatest?

Yes, golden miller is saying that.


Don't think many people have a problem with messi being better.

SlickRic

An answer to the thread title...yes they could, but they shouldn't.

The club is a circus, and the only manager to get a semblance of cohesion and 'feel-good' in the last few years has been Ancelotti.

Ronaldo has been the brilliant constant that has largely kept it all together despite the circus.

monkey9

The Golden Miller wrote: »

It seems that because they have a similar goals and assists return, you're clueless if you don't say they are as good as one another, while ignoring their actual game.

Seriously, what are you actually talking about??

The Golden Miller

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Ronaldo did all that at United. Madrid turned him into a pure goal scorer. Ronaldo still plays his part in plenty of Madrid's attacking moves that he doesn't score/assist in.

It's like groundhog day here. Obviously he will be involved in some build up play at some point. Every player is. Bit different than actually running the show yourself like all the greats could do. And he clearly isn't world class at doing it.

The Golden Miller

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Yes, golden miller is saying that.


Don't think many people have a problem with messi being better.

He's one of the greatest for what he does, score goals. Like Muller. Neither are one of the greatest ever though. Neither an in the Messi, Maradona, Cryuff bracket which many here say he is. Thats the point I've always disputed.

SlickRic

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Bit different than actually running the show yourself like all the greats could do.

Firstly, Ronaldo does.

Secondly, even if he didn't...Gerd Muller, Van Basten, Raul, Batistuta, Romario are just 5 all-time greats of the game, who did basically nothing but score goals.

Messi is better than him, but as usual, Ronaldo gets measured against a different standard to pretty much anyone in the history of football.

price690

SlickRic wrote: »

An answer to the thread title...yes they could, but they shouldn't.

The club is a circus, and the only manager to get a semblance of cohesion and 'feel-good' in the last few years has been Ancelotti.

Ronaldo has been the brilliant constant that has largely kept it all together despite the circus.

They loved Ancelotti as he kept the coaching to a minimum. The players ran the show. And fair play, they had success.

If Real were a sane, reasonale thinking club with a long term plan (rather than changing with the wind), i'd advise them to sell Ronaldo whilst they still can get a big price.

Plenty of talent there to pick up the ball, Isco, Bale and James Rodriguez. They could invest the 60+ million in players to compliment that core of good players. Danilo, Varane, Kroos, Kovacic are top class players with their best years ahead of them. Real have the bones of a side that can dominate should they establish some continuity.

However the reality is that the powers that be with Madrid are bat sh*t crazy. So selling Ronaldo would not be a wise move as they only think short term and Ronaldo keeps them competitive short term.

Benitez is all wrong for Real, in fact he is probably the most unsuitable coach they could find. He will want to be hands on, coaching these top players like he is reinventing the wheel and they won't want to listen, nor should they.

monkey9

The Golden Miller wrote: »

You see, you don't seem to understand that in all games he plays in his performances are a disgrace in open play. That Man U final appearance wasn't a one off. He played the way he always did, just didn't score to paper over the putrid performance. As for the free kicks I agree obviously, but it also applies to his long shots i.e attempt them so much and one is bound to go in now and again. How much possession does he waste attempting them when good possession could have been recycled? Whens the last time you seen him beat 3 or 4 men? That is before we even get into when did he last score after beating 3 or 4 men? Don't think I've ever seen him beat a man against a top defense.

Ronaldo is a world class goal scorer. The best at what he does in today's game with Messi. But Muller was better at doing it. But Muller isn't generally recognised in the same league as your Zidane's, Platini's, Maradona's and Cruyff's. There's a difference between being the best in what you are expected to do, and taking it to the next level and being one of the best ever. Messi can contribute all the goals and assists Ronaldo supplies, but what sets him apart is his vision, creativity, ball control, link up play. He helps orchestrate the attacks, set the temp, dictate the play aswell as providing all the goals and assists.

I think Messi is better than Ronaldo. I'm not arguing that point at all.

But you're going off kilter altogether with your Ronaldo hate. It's not even quirky or opinionated, it's downright stupid.

Billy86

The Golden Miller wrote: »

He's one of the greatest for what he does, score goals. Like Muller. Neither are one of the greatest ever though. Neither an in the Messi, Maradona, Cryuff bracket which many here say he is. Thats the point I've always disputed.

It really is incredible how identical his role and style of play are to Gerd Muller or Ruud van Nistelrooy, isn't it!? sure you wouldn't know which of the three you were watching there if not for the close ups! :pac:

The Golden Miller

SlickRic wrote: »

Firstly, Ronaldo does.

Secondly, even if he didn't...Gerd Muller, Van Basten, Raul, Batistuta are just 5 all-time greats of the game who did basically nothing but score goals.

Messi is better than him, but as usual, Ronaldo gets measured against a different standard to pretty much anyone in the history of football.

Are any of them ever going to be recognised as the best ever or are they known as lethal strikers? How many times do we hear people claiming Ronaldo and Messi are/will be best ever? Or top 5 of all time? What about the guys you just mentioned? Why does Ronaldo get a place over them or a whole host of other players exactly?

gosplan

The Golden Miller wrote: »

He's one of the greatest for what he does, score goals. Like Muller. Neither are one of the greatest ever though. Neither an in the Messi, Maradona, Cryuff bracket which many here say he is. Thats the point I've always disputed.

That's just silly though.

Messi has two huge advantages over Ronaldo.

1: He has played in a better, more settled team, alongside better players.

2: His physique. Messi can go past 2/3 people because of his low centre of gravity and acceleration.

Ronaldo is as good as any player with a similar frame tbh.

monkey9

The Golden Miller wrote: »

He's one of the greatest for what he does, score goals. Like Muller. Neither are one of the greatest ever though. Neither an in the Messi, Maradona, Cryuff bracket which many here say he is. Thats the point I've always disputed.

Ronaldo is a completely different player from what Gerd Muller was. Muller was an out and out goalscorer. He was a finisher.

deaddonkey15

The Golden Miller wrote: »

It's like groundhog day here. Obviously he will be involved in some build up play at some point. Every player is. Bit different than actually running the show yourself like all the greats could do. And he clearly isn't world class at doing it.

Greats like Gerd Muller and Pele? How many times did you watch those guys play?

Billy86

price690 wrote: »

They loved Ancelotti as he kept the coaching to a minimum. The players ran the show. And fair play, they had success.

If Real were a sane, reasonale thinking club with a long term plan (rather than changing with the wind), i'd advise them to sell Ronaldo whilst they still can get a big price.

Plenty of talent there to pick up the ball, Isco, Bale and James Rodriguez. They could invest the 60+ million in players to compliment that core of good players. Danilo, Varane, Kroos, Kovacic are top class players with their best years ahead of them. Real have the bones of a side that can dominate should they establish some continuity.

However the reality is that the powers that be with Madrid are bat sh*t crazy. So selling Ronaldo would not be a wise move as they only think short term and Ronaldo keeps them competitive short term.

Benitez is all wrong for Real, in fact he is probably the most unsuitable coach they could find. He will want to be hands on, coaching these top players like he is reinventing the wheel and they won't want to listen, nor should they.

It's also a huge problem with the Spanish club presidential model - making the short term sacrifice makes it very likely to get the chop and see your successor take all the glory while you become remembered for all the wrong reasons.

raze_them_all_

For me the messi ronaldo debate comes down to this, IF I could have one for only a game I'd take ronaldo, for the season I'd take messi

The Moldy Gowl

Have you ever watched these older players gm to the same analytical extent as Ronaldo?

SlickRic

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Are any of them ever going to be recognised as the best ever or are they known as lethal strikers? How many times do we hear people claiming Ronaldo and Messi are/will be best ever? Or top 5 of all time? What about the guys you just mentioned? Why does Ronaldo get a place over them or a whole host of other players exactly?

Because he scored a fúck load more goals, makes a load more assists, and is basically fúcking brilliant. He's basically just about the best ever at doing the hardest thing to do on a football pitch - score and make goals.

For the love of fúck, this isn't hard.

Billy86

gosplan wrote: »

That's just silly though.

Messi has two huge advantages over Ronaldo.

1: He has played in a better, more settled team, alongside better players.

2: His physique. Messi can go past 2/3 people because of his low centre of gravity and acceleration.

Ronaldo is as good as any player with a similar frame tbh.

To be fair, while I reckon over the last 7-8 the matter of which is better is more down to what is wanted from them, I do think in 10 years time it would probably edge towards Messi due to longevity. He hit his peak a little younger and as you mentioned, is probably suited to keep at the top of his game a little longer into his 30s.

But it is odd how often it is overlooked that Messi's team mates went on without him on the international stage, and were every bit as dominant there - albeit a little less explosive, with talented but not Messi-level talented players in his place. That Barca team was absolutely flooded with greats mostly playing together from since before their balls dropped, and personally I think Xavi deserves a place as one of the very greatest midfielders to ever play the game. He's one of the most effective players full stop, that the game has ever seen and quite possibly more influential than either Messi or Ronaldo.

monkey9

SlickRic wrote: »

Because he scored a fúck load more goals, makes a load more assists, and is basically fúcking brilliant. He's basically just about the best ever at doing the hardest thing to do on a football pitch - score and make goals.

For the love of fúck, this isn't hard.

Yeah but other than that though. Other than that, what is it that makes Ronaldo world class?

The Golden Miller

Billy86 wrote: »

It really is incredible how identical his role and style of play are to Gerd Muller or Ruud van Nistelrooy, isn't it!? sure you wouldn't know which of the three you were watching there if not for the close ups! :pac:

So his great dribbling ability from your video? 6 minutes of mainly taking it to the side of the man and running across field while rarely beating him. As for your "eagle eye" video, mainly crosses or a two yard ball laid off to a player running through. Is their anything in either of those video's that would have him in the same bracket as Maradona for example?

So the best argument seems to be that because he beats his man every now and then or makes a good pass now he's then he's a world class creative force up there with Cryuff, Messi, Zidane, Platini, Maradona? How does he warrant a place as one of the two best ever players, a top 5/10 player ever over many of the other players mentioned as I regularly see here?

Billy86

The Golden Miller wrote: »

So his great dribbling ability from your video? 6 minutes of mainly taking it to the side of the man and running across field while rarely beating him. As for your "eagle eye" video, mainly crosses or a two yard ball laid off to a player running through. Is their anything in either of those video's that would have him in the same bracket as Maradona for example?

So the best argument seems to be that because he beats his man every now and then or makes a good pass now he's then he's a world class creative force up there with Cryuff, Messi, Zidane, Platini, Maradona? How does he warrant a place as one of the two best ever players, a top 5/10 player ever over many of the other players mentioned as I regularly see here?

Go ahead so and get back to me with Gerd Muller or RVN doing likewise. You're the one who drew the comparison, so feel free to back up your frankly ludicrous opinion.

The Moldy Gowl

monkey9 wrote: »

Yeah but other than that though. Other than that, what is it that makes Ronaldo world class?

Sure when was the last team he beat 11 players in a final from picking a ball up in his box.

Or does that make him selfish. I'm not sure anymore.

Billy86

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Sure when was the last team he beat 11 players in a final from picking a ball up in his box.

Or does that make him selfish. I'm not sure anymore.

Remember when he had something like 20 goals in the first 9-10 games of last season? I'd bet that not even one of those goals involved him passing the ball to himself over 20 times while riding a unicycle. Not even one of them!

The Golden Miller

SlickRic wrote: »

Because he scored a fúck load more goals, makes a load more assists, and is basically fúcking brilliant. He's basically just about the best ever at doing the hardest thing to do on a football pitch - score and make goals.

For the love of fúck, this isn't hard.

Does he? The disparity in money/the top two has never been wider in La Liga. He is playing in a Real Madrid worth how much? Against financially poor La Liga teams who put their onus on attack with weak defenses in the main coming up against a Madrid team who is a direct juggernaut where every attack in the box ends up at Ronaldo's feet. Kind of skews the stats, doesn't it? Same for Messi, but most don't regard him as a great due to only goals, while he is also the man creating alot of the passages of play that end up back at his feet to score a goal

The Golden Miller

Billy86 wrote: »

Go ahead so and get back to me with Gerd Muller or RVN doing likewise. You're the one who drew the comparison, so feel free to back up your frankly ludicrous opinion.

Why considering I don't regard any of them in the Maradona bracket. What you think a few clips of him laying off a pass from an attack he couldn't actually beat a man is eagle eye vision?

The Golden Miller

Billy86 wrote: »

Remember when he had something like 20 goals in the first 9-10 games of last season? I'd bet that not even one of those goals involved him passing the ball to himself over 20 times while riding a unicycle. Not even one of them!

How many of them were 8-0 hidings that Madrid would have cruised to victory anyway? Lets not forget his peno's either

monkey9

The Golden Miller wrote: »

So his great dribbling ability from your video? 6 minutes of mainly taking it to the side of the man and running across field while rarely beating him. As for your "eagle eye" video, mainly crosses or a two yard ball laid off to a player running through. Is their anything in either of those video's that would have him in the same bracket as Maradona for example?

So the best argument seems to be that because he beats his man every now and then or makes a good pass now he's then he's a world class creative force up there with Cryuff, Messi, Zidane, Platini, Maradona? How does he warrant a place as one of the two best ever players, a top 5/10 player ever over many of the other players mentioned as I regularly see here?

I don't think we need to watch videos as we have watched Ronaldo's career as it happened.We've seen it unfold before our very eyes so we know Ronaldo is a footballing great.

How old are you? Because i see you mention Cryuff there as world class creative force. How do you know how good Cryuff was? Apart from a couple of turns, that lad was average, surely. I'm leaving out stats here.

deaddonkey15

The Golden Miller wrote: »

So his great dribbling ability from your video? 6 minutes of mainly taking it to the side of the man and running across field while rarely beating him. As for your "eagle eye" video, mainly crosses or a two yard ball laid off to a player running through. Is their anything in either of those video's that would have him in the same bracket as Maradona for example?

So the best argument seems to be that because he beats his man every now and then or makes a good pass now he's then he's a world class creative force up there with Cryuff, Messi, Zidane, Platini, Maradona? How does he warrant a place as one of the two best ever players, a top 5/10 player ever over many of the other players mentioned as I regularly see here?

A lot of good vision in this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y9I3zmQeOU

Why don't you throw up some Maradona videos so and we'll have a look? Excluding the ones in which he scores or assists goals of course. Oh and ones where he only does crosses and lays off two yard passes.

SlickRic

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Does he? The disparity in money/the top two has never been wider in La Liga. He is playing in a Real Madrid worth how much? Against financially poor La Liga teams who put their onus on attack with weak defenses in the main coming up against a Madrid team who is a direct juggernaut where every attack in the box ends up at Ronaldo's feet. Kind of skews the stats, doesn't it? Same for Messi, but most don't regard him as a great due to only goals, while he is also the man creating alot of the passages of play that end up back at his feet to score a goal

Oh FFS.

The last Strawman.

You don't even watch Ronaldo it seems.

I'm out.

The Golden Miller

What do youtube videos prove? Nothing as I've pointed out with the Ronaldo video's. Cryuff and Maradona's greatness now being questioned because people can't face the reality that Ronaldo isn't in their league? I don't need to see them play to know they were the vital cog in bringing mediocre teams to being the best in Europe, who then reverted back to being mediocre teams when they left. They were the fulcrum who ran the show wherever they went. Their ability to dictate games and create meant they made the average become great. Ronaldo at Sporting, United and Madrid were no better or worse with or without him.

Knex*

Saying if you take goals away from a goalscorer, then he's average, is as odd as saying if you take the saves away from a keeper, then he's no good.

The Golden Miller

SlickRic wrote: »

Oh FFS.

The last Strawman.

You don't even watch Ronaldo it seems.

I'm out.

I do. Hence my point. So nothing that I said their holds any merit in your opinion? The chasing pack in La Liga are as good at they were 12 years ago?

Knex*

If you disregard all of The Golden Miller's posts, then he's actually not a bad poster, lads.

deaddonkey15

Billy86 wrote: »

Remember when he had something like 20 goals in the first 9-10 games of last season? I'd bet that not even one of those goals involved him passing the ball to himself over 20 times while riding a unicycle. Not even one of them!

Why are you talking about his goals? His goals don't count when we're discussing how good he is. Neither do the goals he sets up.

The Golden Miller

Knex. wrote: »

Saying if you take goals away from a goalscorer, then he's average, is as odd as saying if you take the saves away from a keeper, then he's no good.

They are both world class at what they do. Does that automatically make them one of the two best players of all time?

symbolic

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

A lot of good vision in this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y9I3zmQeOU

Why don't you throw up some Maradona videos so and we'll have a look? Excluding the ones in which he scores or assists goals of course. Oh and ones where he only does crosses and lays off two yard passes.

That's fantastic stuff to watch. Vision, and with his pace it's so good to watch.

Messi is my favorite but I dunno why anyone would want to put Ronaldo down so much.

Billy86

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Why considering I don't regard any of them in the Maradona bracket. What you think a few clips of him laying off a pass from an attack he couldn't actually beat a man is eagle eye vision?

You said you consider him to be the same type of player as Gerd Muller or RVN. If that is true, you will easily be able to point to where RVN or Muller did the type of stuff that is in those videos.

I'm taking it you can't.

The Golden Miller

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Why are you talking about his goals? His goals don't count when we're discussing how good he is. Neither do the goals he sets up.

You still can't grasp what I'm saying? I've no problem with his goals. How many times will I say it? So his goals alone make him one of the 2 best players ever, or top 5 as I regularly see here which is the point I'm disputing?

deaddonkey15

The Golden Miller wrote: »

How many of them were 8-0 hidings that Madrid would have cruised to victory anyway? Lets not forget his peno's either

Yeah good point, how dare he score his penalties!

Billy86

The Golden Miller wrote: »

How many of them were 8-0 hidings that Madrid would have cruised to victory anyway? Lets not forget his peno's either

Which brings me right back to the point about how badly those Barca players struggled without Messi on the Spanish national team. :pac:

Billy86

symbolic wrote: »

That's fantastic stuff to watch. Vision, and with his pace it's so good to watch.

Messi is my favorite but I dunno why anyone would want to put Ronaldo down so much.

My guess is they're the same people that were trying to label him as a "one trick pony" (not for his goalscoring/assists, but for his dribbling ironically enough) 10+ years ago who just can't get the bitter, bitter taste out of their mouths watching him go down as more or less universally praised as one of the greatest players of all time. It's kind of glorious in it's own right.

dundalkfc10

The Golden Miller wrote: »

What do youtube videos prove? Nothing as I've pointed out with the Ronaldo video's. Cryuff and Maradona's greatness now being questioned because people can face the reality that Ronaldo isn't in their league? I don't need to see them play to know they were the vital cog in bringing mediocre teams to being the best in Europe, who then reverted back to being mediocre teams when they left. They were the fulcrum who ran the show wherever they went. Their ability to dictate games and create meant they made the average become great. Ronaldo at Sporting, United and Madrid were no better or worse with or without him.

So your saying players you have never seen live regualrly are better than Ronaldo?

Your posts are entertaining i must say.

Can I hazard a guess that you are a ABU?

P.S Do you rate any of the current generation bar Messi as one of the best ever?

monkey9

The Golden Miller wrote: »

You still can't grasp what I'm saying? I've no problem with his goals. How many times will I say it? So his goals alone make him one of the 2 best players ever, or top 5 as I regularly see here which is the point I'm disputing?

Who's the greatest of all time in your opinion and whose the greatest player you've ever seen?

The Golden Miller

Billy86 wrote: »

You said you consider him to be the same type of player as Gerd Muller or RVN. If that is true, you will easily be able to point to where RVN or Muller did the type of stuff that is in those videos.

I'm taking it you can't.

What was in the video's? Two yard passes and lay off's? So your saying RVN or Muller never made a pass or laid off a ball? If you agree they made a pass then they must be up there with Maradona right. Goals and the ability to give a two yard pass, right? Maybe I'll start stooping down to the pedantic level everyone else is at

deaddonkey15

The Golden Miller wrote: »

What do youtube videos prove? Nothing as I've pointed out with the Ronaldo video's. Cryuff and Maradona's greatness now being questioned because people can face the reality that Ronaldo isn't in their league? I don't need to see them play to know they were the vital cog in bringing mediocre teams to being the best in Europe, who then reverted back to being mediocre teams when they left. They were the fulcrum who ran the show wherever they went. Their ability to dictate games and create meant they made the average become great. Ronaldo at Sporting, United and Madrid were no better or worse with or without him.

So you've never actually seen these "greats" play, but Ronaldo still isn't fit to lace their boots? It seems like you are one of those who think everything was better back in the good ole days. That coupled with an obvious anti-Ronaldo agenda is dangerous when you want your football views to be taken seriously.

Ever think that the standard of football back then was a bit lower than it is now? The training facilities and sports science knowledge just didn't exist back then. The players weren't the same finely tuned athletic machines they are now. Personally I reckon if peak Ronaldo was put back in time playing in the Pele or Maradona eras he would completely blow them out of the water. No disrespect to the two lads obviously, they were the best products of their time. But football has advanced to much higher levels now.

Rayne Wooney

If you take away Ronaldos legs he wouldn't be very good at football