Could Real Madrid sell Ronaldo?

Billy86

The Golden Miller wrote: »

What was in the video's? Two yard passes and lay off's? So your saying RVN or Muller never made a pass or laid off a ball? If you agree they made a pass then they must be up there with Maradona right. Goals and the ability to give a two yard pass, right? Maybe I'll start stooping down to the pedantic level everyone else is at

So basically... you cannot find videos of RVN or Muller doing the stuff in those videos? Got it, though you should have just said so in the first place.

deaddonkey15

The Golden Miller wrote: »

What do youtube videos prove? Nothing as I've pointed out with the Ronaldo video's. Cryuff and Maradona's greatness now being questioned because people can face the reality that Ronaldo isn't in their league? I don't need to see them play to know they were the vital cog in bringing mediocre teams to being the best in Europe, who then reverted back to being mediocre teams when they left. They were the fulcrum who ran the show wherever they went. Their ability to dictate games and create meant they made the average become great. Ronaldo at Sporting, United and Madrid were no better or worse with or without him.

United have never been at the level they were at when he left. Strange how his time at United coincided with the most successful period in the clubs history.

Flint Fredstone

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Does he? The disparity in money/the top two has never been wider in La Liga. He is playing in a Real Madrid worth how much? Against financially poor La Liga teams who put their onus on attack with weak defenses in the main coming up against a Madrid team who is a direct juggernaut where every attack in the box ends up at Ronaldo's feet. Kind of skews the stats, doesn't it?

So you're saying that because he gets loads of chances to score, the stats are skewed? Really?

Should he sign for Levante to prove himself?

Billy86

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

So you're saying that because he gets loads of chances to score, the stats are skewed? Really?

Should he sign for Levante to prove himself?

Nah, because then he would only be doing well there because clubs don't take Levante as seriously as Man Utd or Real Madrid.

The Golden Miller

monkey9 wrote: »

Who's the greatest of all time in your opinion and whose the greatest player you've ever seen?

Cruyff and Maradona. Messi, Zidane, Kaka for a few years

monkey9

Ronaldo's sh!te, lads. Just accept facts. He's been stealing a living these past few years. Anybody could do what Ronaldo has achieved in his career, that's why everybody has done it. Average.

symbolic

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Cruyff and Maradona. Messi, Zidane, Kaka for a few years

I personally can't argue with that! My kind of players.

Billy86

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Cruyff and Maradona. Messi, Zidane, Kaka for a few years

:pac:

The Golden Miller

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

So you're saying that because he gets loads of chances to score, the stats are skewed? Really?

Should he sign for Levante to prove himself?

Skewed in the sense that it's far easier to score in a league where 18 teams are broke and still attack meaning they have extremely brittle defenses, and are then coming up the richest team in the world who play in a direct fashion where the final ball is handed to the one player at the end of every attack, than playing against good more solid defenses week in week out, or in an era in La Liga where the chasing pack and overall standard was far more balanced and even playing field. You wouldn't agree, no?

monkey9

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Cruyff and Maradona. Messi, Zidane, Kaka for a few years

Kaka > Ronaldo. Really??

Billy86

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Skewed in the sense that it's far easier to score in a league where 18 teams are broke and still attack meaning they have extremely brittle defenses, and are then coming up the richest team in the world who play in a direct fashion where the final ball is handed to the one player at the end of every attack, than playing against good more solid defenses week in week out, or in an era in La Liga where the chasing pack and overall standard was far more balanced and even playing field. You wouldn't agree, no?

Yet Messi playing in arguably the greatest team of all time, with or without him, doesn't factor in?

You truly are the gift that keeps on giving.

The Golden Miller

monkey9 wrote: »

Kaka > Ronaldo. Really??

Sorry, do people purposefully take what I say out of context despite what I said being right in front of them or genuinely just don't understand what I said? I was asked who was the best I ever saw. Zidane and Messi. Kaka in his prime over the space of 3 years. He never sustained it, but for that period he was a genius. Had it all.

SlickRic

Kaka is nowhere near Ronaldo mate, sorry.

Flint Fredstone

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Skewed in the sense that it's far easier to score in a league where 18 teams are broke and still attack meaning they have extremely brittle defenses, and are then coming up the richest team in the world who play in a direct fashion where the final ball is handed to the one player at the end of every attack, than playing against good more solid defenses week in week out, or in an era in La Liga where the chasing pack and overall standard was far more balanced and even playing field. You wouldn't agree, no?

No.

deaddonkey15

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Skewed in the sense that it's far easier to score in a league where 18 teams are broke and still attack meaning they have extremely brittle defenses, and are then coming up the richest team in the world who play in a direct fashion where the final ball is handed to the one player at the end of every attack, than playing against good more solid defenses week in week out, or in an era in La Liga where the chasing pack and overall standard was far more balanced and even playing field. You wouldn't agree, no?

He scored a lot of goals in the premier league too, a more even playing field than La Liga. Portugal's record goal scorer, ajead of Eusebio, they're hardly a top international side either are they? Why are you so sure that all the greats came up against nothing but rock solid defences? Why do you include Zidane as one of the greats, didn't he play in the same broke league with brittle defences as Ronaldo? He was part of the first Galactico side too where Madrid were man for man superior to pretty much everyone in Spain. Easy to look good playing midfield in that team I reckon.

The Golden Miller

Billy86 wrote: »

Yet Messi playing in arguably the greatest team of all time, with or without him, doesn't factor in?

You truly are the gift that keeps on giving.

Well it does, as I've already said on the thread. But as I also said, it's not his goals that make Messi great. You sure you can read? Because I seem to be explaining the one thing several times, and am hit with responses that I've already covered several times. But I suppose it's quite telling, try dispute and play down the ability of other players, as Ronaldo doesn't possess the ability or attributes to put him on Zidane or Maradona's level, which is my point to begin with.

Billy86

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Sorry, do people purposefully take what I say out of context despite what I said being right in front of them or genuinely just don't understand what I said? I was asked who was the best I ever saw. Zidane and Messi. Kaka in his prime over the space of 3 years. He never sustained it, but for that period he was a genius. Had it all.

No, we all know what you meant, hence the ridicule.

If you going to bring up someone who was on the Messi/Ronaldo level of greatness for a brief time, you could have at least gone with Ronaldinho.

deaddonkey15

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Well it does, as I've already said on the thread. But as I also said, it's not his goals don't make Messi great. You sure you can read? Because I seem to be explaining the one thing several times, and am hit with responses that I've already covered several times. But I suppose it's quite telling, try dispute and play down the ability of other players, as Ronaldo doesn't possess the ability or attributes to put him on Zidane or Maradona's level, which is my point to begin with.

Zidane doesn't possess the attributes to put him at Ronaldo's level. When did Zidane score 60 times in a single season?

The Golden Miller

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

He scored a lot of goals in the premier league too, a more even playing field than La Liga. Portugal's record goal scorer, ajead of Eusebio, they're hardly a top international side either are they? Why are you so sure that all the greats came up against nothing but rock solid defences? Why do you include Zidane as one of the greats, didn't he play in the same broke league with brittle defences as Ronaldo? He was part of the first Galactico side too where Madrid were man for man superior to pretty much everyone in Spain. Easy to look good playing midfield in that team I reckon.

Could Ronaldo bang in 50 goals the following season at United?

Zidane done it at Juve, and in Madrid when the rest of the teams were better. Ronaldo can't even do it today

The Golden Miller

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Zidane doesn't possess the attributes to put him at Ronaldo's level. When did Zidane score 60 times in a single season?

So goals are your benchmark to be the best ever then?

I'd be surprised if Madrid let him go while he is still a world class player.

monkey9

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Sorry, do people purposefully take what I say out of context despite what I said being right in front of them or genuinely just don't understand what I said? I was asked who was the best I ever saw. Zidane and Messi. Kaka in his prime over the space of 3 years. He never sustained it, but for that period he was a genius. Had it all.

So once again. Kaka > Ronaldo. Really?

The Golden Miller

monkey9 wrote: »

So once again. Kaka > Ronaldo. Really?

Over that period, yes. Without Kaka, Milan wouldn't have been close to the team they were. Notice a dip in the season he was poor and after he left? What makes Ronaldo better than Kaka at his best?

Billy86

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Well it does, as I've already said on the thread. But as I also said, it's not his goals don't make Messi great. You sure you can read? Because I seem to be explaining the one thing several times, and am hit with responses that I've already covered several times. But I suppose it's quite telling, try dispute and play down the ability of other players, as Ronaldo doesn't possess the ability or attributes to put him on Zidane or Maradona's level, which is my point to begin with.

And as has been pointed out, it is not just his goals that make Ronaldo great. Regardless of what you're incredible biases tell you.

And I hate to break it to you, but Zidane while great, was a bit overrated. You love to (incorrectly) point out that Man Utd and Madrid did just as well without Ronaldo as they did with him... well I hate to break it to you, but Madrid were actually more successful during the five years prior to Zidane signing, than they were in the five years he was there.

Still nothing to show RVN or Muller doing what Ronaldo can do, by the way.

deaddonkey15

The Golden Miller wrote: »

So goals are your benchmark to be the best ever then?

No, but they are quite important really. Goals are the fundamental point of the whole game. My point is, why hold Ronaldo to Zidane's standards for greatness and not hold Zidane to Ronaldo's standard for greatness?

deaddonkey15

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Well it does, as I've already said on the thread. But as I also said, it's not his goals don't make Messi great. You sure you can read? Because I seem to be explaining the one thing several times, and am hit with responses that I've already covered several times. But I suppose it's quite telling, try dispute and play down the ability of other players, as Ronaldo doesn't possess the ability or attributes to put him on Zidane or Maradona's level, which is my point to begin with.

Immeasurable, and purely subjective abilities and attributes like "vision" and the ability to "run the show". How can you claim Ronaldo doesn't have the same vision as some of the greats that you already admitted you've never seen play?

The Golden Miller

Billy86 wrote: »

And as has been pointed out, it is not just his goals that make Ronaldo great. Regardless of what you're incredible biases tell you.

And I hate to break it to you, but Zidane while great, was a bit overrated. You love to (incorrectly) point out that Man Utd and Madrid did just as well without Ronaldo as they did with him... well I hate to break it to you, but Madrid were actually more successful during the five years prior to Zidane signing, than they were in the five years he was there.

Still nothing to show RVN or Muller doing what Ronaldo can do, by the way.

Because you've yet to point out what Ronaldo actually did in the video, except lay off the odd pass as he couldn't beat his man. Unless your going to claim RVN or Muller never gave a pass?

A bit over rated or not, he was still one of the most gifted playmakers of the last 20 years, who could dominate a whole game by himself, regardless of him scoring or not. He, like Kaka in his prime, were so highly regarded for their world class performances in open play. The ability to set and control the pace and tempo of a game, orchestrate all the attacks, break down defences with vision, creativity and natural genius.

It was circa the period when Zidane left that the money gap between the top two in Spain and the rest could really be felt, where it all started to go to England

Billy86

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Over that period, yes. Without Kaka, Milan wouldn't have been close to the team they were. Notice a dip in the season he was poor and after he left? What makes Ronaldo better than Kaka at his best?

Yeah, because it certainly had nothing to do with a team more noted for their incredible veteran defense (and ageing squad) than anything having a) perhaps the greatest RB in the history of the game retire, b) probably the best player in the clubs history, their long-time captain, and simply one of the best defenders of all time retire, c) probably the best CB of his generation fall off a bit of a cliff following injuries, d) one of the best ball-winning midfielders of his generation get old and fall off, e) a keeper once being hailed as one of the best of the world seemingly forget how to play football, and f) one of the greatest managers of his generation leave.

And of course, that's before even bringing up the effect that whole calciopoli scandal had on them.

No, couldn't have been any of that. It must have all been down to Kaka leaving. Of course! I mean when he went to Madrid, it immediately became clear to everyone how much better than Ronaldo he really was.

By the way, Milan won just one Serie A title in Kaka's whole six years there, and on top of all the guys listed above, they also had this Ukrainian chap up front that was kind of decent for them.

The Golden Miller

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

No, but they are quite important really. Goals are the fundamental point of the whole game. My point is, why hold Ronaldo to Zidane's standards for greatness and not hold Zidane to Ronaldo's standard for greatness?

The likes of the Maradona's, Cruyff's, Zidane's etc of the game, take the whole team to a new level, indirectly being responsible for nearly all goals, everything goes through them and it's their spark and creativity and ability to control a team that turns average teams into lethal one's, going forward in particular. Without them, the Napoli's and Ajax's of this world would be far poorer teams when they are taken out. Without one of them, but with a great goal scorer, they'll still get some goals, but the team as a whole will not function to that level or do half as well. It's pretty simple really

The Golden Miller

Billy86 wrote: »

Yeah, because it certainly had nothing to do with a team more noted for their incredible veteran defense (and ageing squad) than anything having a) perhaps the greatest RB in the history of the game retire, b) probably the best player in the clubs history, their long-time captain, and simply one of the best defenders of all time retire, c) probably the best CB of his generation fall off a bit of a cliff following injuries, d) one of the best ball-winning midfielders of his generation get old and fall off, e) a keeper once being hailed as one of the best of the world seemingly forget how to play football, and f) one of the greatest managers of his generation leave.

And of course, that's before even bringing up the effect that whole calciopoli scandal had on them.

No, couldn't have been any of that. It must have all been down to Kaka leaving. Of course! I mean when he went to Madrid, it immediately became clear to everyone how much better than Ronaldo he really was.

By the way, Milan won just one Serie A title in Kaka's whole six years there, and on top of all the guys listed above, they also had this Ukrainian chap up front that was kind of decent for them.

Well he was poor the season before he left Milan, so it doesn't really show Ronaldo was better than Kaka at his peak when he went to Madrid. All good teams will have good players, but take Kaka out of the equation and they were a far poorer team. Kaka's ability to retain possession and control the game to his will took alot of pressure of their ageing defence at times when the ball was cleared to him. Of course a good ball winning midfielder is helpful but all good teams need more than one player. To take it to such pedantic levels then sure Maradona was only good because of the goalie. If the goalie wasn't there sure they be conceding all over the place and win nothing etc. Just more scrapping the barrel to deflect from the fact Ronaldo can't play to this level in open play. You could take him out of any team he's been in and they'd be just fine as long as the creative fulcrum remains. Many of the players I mentioned were that very creative fulcrum. Ronaldo has no bearing on the flow of the game, the way all the greats had, which is why other great goal scorers like Muller and RVN will never transcend to that level either. He is one of the best goal scorers ever, but that's all he'll ever be. He doesn't have the ability to go into that top bracket, which many people here claim he does. Heck, we even saw Suarez do it at Liverpool when he ran the show for them (not that he's in that bracket either)

SlickRic

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Over that period, yes. Without Kaka, Milan wouldn't have been close to the team they were. Notice a dip in the season he was poor and after he left? What makes Ronaldo better than Kaka at his best?

The things that you denounce as not really that important.

According to your criteria, nothing. According to criteria that includes goals and assists, plenty.

Billy86

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Because you've yet to point out what Ronaldo actually did in the video, except lay off the odd pass as he couldn't beat his man. Unless your going to claim RVN or Muller never gave a pass?

A bit over rated or not, he was still one of the most gifted playmakers of the last 20 years, who could dominate a whole game by himself, regardless of him scoring or not. He, like Kaka in his prime, were so highly regarded for their world class performances in open play. The ability to set and control the pace and tempo of a game, orchestrate all the attacks, break down defences with vision, creativity and natural genius.

It was circa the period when Zidane left that the money gap between the top two in Spain and the rest could really be felt, where it all started to go to England

0:30 - backheel pass into the box for an assist.
0:45 - dinking the ball over one defender, passing to a team mate in front of goal who completely mi****s it, and crossing to another guy on the back post who scores.
1:00 - taking the ball in from the wing, dribbling by two players and crossing to a man on the near post for an assist.
1:20 - perfectly placed cross too far out for the keeper and right over the defender, landing on a team mates head for an assist.
3:00 - perfectly placed cross over a defender on to a team mates head, who fails to convert.
3:35 - beating his man by the corner flag, bringing the ball in and putting a cross perfectly on his team mates head in a crowded box, that he fails to convert.
3:50 - beating his man down the wing, then beating him inside, giving a cross to the back post right on to a team mates foot that he fails to convert.
6:00 - completing a one-two with a team mate, and crossing on to the back post right on a team mates head one yard out, that he fails to convert.

0:50 - nutmeg.
0:55 - backheel through a defender's legs.
1:00 - bamboozling through two defenders.
1:25 - making a fool of some defenders.
1:30 - and again
And that's just from the first 90 seconds.

And that's before even bringing up how regularly he did this for Man Utd where he was in a more expressive and creative role.

So go on now and find videos of Gerd Muller and RVN doing the same.


Also if that is your reasoning for Zidane and Kaka being the two best players you have ever seen, I can only assume you've never seen Ronaldinho or Xavi.

As for your last paragraph, what utter crap! Remind me of the nickname of the Madrid team Zidane played on, again? And yet they were more successful in the five years before he came, than the five years he was there. By your logic, that is a huge knock against him.

SlickRic

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Heck, we even saw Suarez do it at Liverpool when he ran the show for them

You do know Ronaldo did that for Utd for at least 2 seasons, and has done it at Madrid since he's been there.

Of course you don't.

Your argument is utter fúcking lunacy. You have one style that you like. All the players you list are remarkably similar in many ways. You're completely closed to the idea that there are other ways to be one of the greats than to just be the one to dribble and control.

Newsflash: there are other ways to play the game and be one of the fúcking best ever.

deaddonkey15

The Golden Miller wrote: »

The likes of the Maradona's, Cruyff's, Zidane's etc of the game, take the whole team to a new level, indirectly being responsible for nearly all goals, everything goes through them and it's their spark and creativity and ability to control a team that turns average teams into lethal one's, going forward in particular. Without them, the Napoli's and Ajax's of this world would be far poorer teams when they are taken out. Without one of them, but with a great goal scorer, they'll still get some goals, but the team as a whole will not function to that level or do half as well. It's pretty simple really

You mean the greats that you've never seen play?

Billy86

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Well he was poor the season before he left Milan, so it doesn't really show Ronaldo was better than Kaka at his peak when he went to Madrid. All good teams will have good players, but take Kaka out of the equation and they were a far poorer team. Kaka's ability to retain possession and control the game to his will took alot of pressure of their ageing defence at times when the ball was cleared to him. Of course a good ball winning midfielder is helpful but all good teams need more than one player. To take it to such pedantic levels then sure Maradona was only good because of the goalie. If the goalie wasn't there sure they be conceding all over the place and win nothing etc. Just more scrapping the barrel to deflect from the fact Ronaldo can't play to this level in open play. You could take him out of any team he's been in and they'd be just fine as long as the creative fulcrum remains. Many of the players I mentioned were that very creative fulcrum. Ronaldo has no bearing on the flow of the game, the way all the greats had, which is why other great goal scorers like Muller and RVN will never transcend to that level either. He is one of the best goal scorers ever, but that's all he'll ever be. He doesn't have the ability to go into that top bracket, which many people here claim he does. Heck, we even saw Suarez do it at Liverpool when he ran the show for them (not that he's in that bracket either)

Most of what you are attributing to Kaka in this post was actually Pirlo, I do hate to break it to you.

You tried to claim that Milan fell apart because of Kaka losing his form and leaving as if he was the club. The truth is, he was only one part of it. You tried to make a bullsh*t claim and got called on it, simple as Just like you tried to make a bullsh*t claim that Ronaldo is no different to RVN or Gerd Muller, and are being called on it. And have yet to show them doing some of the stuff Ronaldo has done through his career.

The Golden Miller

Billy86 wrote: »

0:30 - backheel pass into the box for an assist.
0:45 - dinking the ball over one defender, passing to a team mate in front of goal who completely mi****s it, and crossing to another guy on the back post who scores.
1:00 - taking the ball in from the wing, dribbling by two players and crossing to a man on the near post for an assist.
1:20 - perfectly placed cross too far out for the keeper and right over the defender, landing on a team mates head for an assist.
3:00 - perfectly placed cross over a defender on to a team mates head, who fails to convert.
3:35 - beating his man by the corner flag, bringing the ball in and putting a cross perfectly on his team mates head in a crowded box, that he fails to convert.
3:50 - beating his man down the wing, then beating him inside, giving a cross to the back post right on to a team mates foot that he fails to convert.
6:00 - completing a one-two with a team mate, and crossing on to the back post right on a team mates head one yard out, that he fails to convert.

0:50 - nutmeg.
0:55 - backheel through a defender's legs.
1:00 - bamboozling through two defenders.
1:25 - making a fool of some defenders.
1:30 - and again
And that's just from the first 90 seconds.

And that's before even bringing up how regularly he did this for Man Utd where he was in a more expressive and creative role.

So go on now and find videos of Gerd Muller and RVN doing the same.


Also if that is your reasoning for Zidane and Kaka being the two best players you have ever seen, I can only assume you've never seen Ronaldinho or Xavi.

As for your last paragraph, what utter crap! Remind me of the nickname of the Madrid team Zidane played on, again? And yet they were more successful in the five years before he came, than the five years he was there. By your logic, that is a huge knock against him.

As I've stated about youtube video's before you even posted one, they are disingenuous. So 6 clips in over a seasons worth of play show him as a playmaking great? Any compilation video can make any player look world class. Name one game he's controlled? Even one the way Suarez could for a whole season when he turned a mid-table premiership club into contenders. I'd rate Ronaldinho at his peak and Xavi as better players than Ronaldo actually, I used Kaka as an example. They could all dictate a game and be indirectly responsible for most of a teams goals and how they function. Take them out and a team will not perform to the same level. Take Ronaldo out and they'll still get the goals, they'll put goals on a plate for someone else. Only the true greats have this ability, which is why these players are generally held in such high regard, despite having poor enough "stats". A player like Messi can take what Ronaldo does best (goals), while also doing what the great orchestrators do and displays these attributes all the time.

Pirlo is a funny one. Got better with age really. Like Xavi. There's a reason Italy were so keen to get Totti fit for the 06 world cup and played Pirlo out of position to accommodate him. Kaka was the main man during that period in Milan. Try and rewrite history all you want to downplay a players ability to excuse another's shortcomings. Still won't make Ronaldo anything other than a world class goalscorer, just the way Cannavaro was a world class defender. Will be remembered as greats for what they do, score goals and defend. But will never put them in that top echelon of greats like Maradona and Cruyff who could dictate a whole game by themselves

Billy86

The Golden Miller wrote: »

As I've stated about youtube video's before you even posted one, they are disingenuous. So 6 clips in over a seasons worth of play show him as a playmaking great?

I pointed out 13 things, and only pointed to the first 90 seconds of the second video... and they were the first two videos that popped up on Youtube for me.

On the subject of disingenuous, where does 13 = 6??

Just admit that you can not show Muller or RVN doing these things and we can move on. If you avoid doing so again, I'm just taking it as an admission on your part that you were wrong.

I used Kaka as an example.

No you didn't, you said he was one of the three best players you have ever seen. Which is hilarious.

Pirlo is a funny one. Got better with age really. Like Xavi.

Wrong and wrong.

Also, the fact you want to break down all the facets of attacking play then list defending as "just defending" is nothing short of brilliant! :pac:

The Golden Miller

Billy86 wrote: »

I pointed out 13 things, and only pointed to the first 90 seconds of the second video... and they were the first two videos that popped up on Youtube for me.

On the subject of disingenuous, where does 13 = 6??

Just admit that you can not show Muller or RVN doing these things and we can move on. If you avoid doing so again, I'm just taking it as an admission on your part that you were wrong.

No you didn't, you said he was one of the three best players you have ever seen. Which is hilarious.

Wrong and wrong.

Also, the fact you want to break down all the facets of attacking play then list defending as "just defending" is nothing short of brilliant! :pac:

13 things? Of the top of my head one of which included a 5 yard cross, ye? Sheer unparalleled vision right there. So what, the odd pass in 10's of thousand minutes of play in a season has him lighting up the pitch with creativity on par with Maradona? Then surely you'll be able to name a few games from last season where he ran the show in open play and was critically lauded for it? If you can't I'll take it as an admission that you were wrong. Anyway what's your obsession with this video? So even if RVN and Muller never made a pass in their lives, it magically means Ronaldo is a world class playmaker? The fact you are trying to continually deflect to an irrelevant point with this video nonsense is quite telling actually. The crux of the point is that they were all were fairly average in open play and all were world class goal scorers, but none of which will ever be at the level of Maradona, Cruyff, Zidane, Platini, Best who could run a whole game etc etc.

Yes Kaka in his prime was is in my top 3. I'd personally have him ahead of Xavi and Ronaldinho in his prime, and have them all ahead of Ronaldo. Or would you put Ronaldo in your team for a season ahead of any of them?

Wrong and wrong? Do explain. Xavi's been in some woeful Barca's teams since 99 and was fairly average until he refined his game over time. Like Pirlo. Why was there a massive rush to get Totti back from injury if Pirlo was so great during that period? Remember Totti coming off in the final and they moved Pirlo into his natural position for the remainder of the game?

Billy86

The Golden Miller wrote: »

13 things? Of the top of my head one of which included a 5 yard cross, ye? Sheer unparalleled vision right there. So what, the odd pass in 10's of thousand minutes of play in a season has him lighting up the pitch with creativity on par with Maradona? Then surely you'll be able to name a few games from last season where he ran the show in open play and was critically lauded for it? If you can't I'll take it as an admission that you were wrong. Anyway what's your obsession with this video? So even if RVN and Muller never made a pass in their lives, it magically means Ronaldo is a world class playmaker? The fact you are trying to continually deflect to an irrelevant point with this video nonsense is quite telling actually. The crux of the point is that they were all were fairly average in open play and all were world class goal scorers, but none of which will ever be at the level of Maradona, Cruyff, Zidane, Platini, Best who could run a whole game etc etc.

Yes Kaka in his prime was is in my top 3. I'd personally have him ahead of Xavi and Ronaldinho in his prime, and have them all ahead of Ronaldo. Or would you put Ronaldo in your team for a season ahead of any of them?

Wrong and wrong? Do explain. Xavi's been in some woeful Barca's teams since 99 and was fairly average until he refined his game over time. Like Pirlo. Why was there a massive rush to get Totti back from injury if Pirlo was so great during that period? Remember Totti coming off in the final and they moved Pirlo into his natural position for the remainder of the game?

Thank you for admitting you were laughably wrong in saying Ronaldo is just the same as Muller and RVN, you should have just done so from the start.

Putting Ronaldo ahead of Xavi for a team wouldn't make any sense as they play completely different positions and roles. It is very hard to say with Ronaldinho, who I might take ahead of Ronaldo but also might take ahead of Messi - it's a true shame he lost his motivation because on top of how effective he was, because longevity does count towards all time greatness and he was also one of the most entertaining and unpredictable players I've ever seen... so coin toss between the three of them. But all three of those guys (Messi, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho) I would take in a heartbeat over Kaka.

Xavi has in no way been average for a good 10+ years now, and claims to the contrary are absurd. I can only assume you started paying attention to him when Barca began winning lots of trophies because of his understated role.

You mean the World Cup Final where Pirlo was won Man of the Match? You also seem to be under the illusion that he and Totti played the same position...

The Golden Miller

Billy86 wrote: »

Thank you for admitting you were laughably wrong in saying Ronaldo is just the same as Muller and RVN, you should have just done so from the start.

Putting Ronaldo ahead of Xavi for a team wouldn't make any sense as they play completely different positions and roles. It is very hard to say with Ronaldinho, who I might take ahead of Ronaldo but also might take ahead of Messi - it's a true shame he lost his motivation because on top of how effective he was, because longevity does count towards all time greatness and he was also one of the most entertaining and unpredictable players I've ever seen... so coin toss between the three of them. But all three of those guys (Messi, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho) I would take in a heartbeat over Kaka.

Xavi has in no way been average for a good 10+ years now, and claims to the contrary are absurd. I can only assume you started paying attention to him when Barca began winning lots of trophies because of his understated role.

You mean the World Cup Final where Pirlo was won Man of the Match? You also seem to be under the illusion that he and Totti played the same position...

Sorry you not remember what the Ronaldo, RVN, Muller point was? Can't list these matches where Ronaldo ran the show like all the greats could do?

What do you think Ronaldo would contribute over the influence and ability to run a game and pull the strings that an inform Kaka would give you?

I'm well aware of Xavi before Barca started winning trophies, and his inability to create or dictate that much at the time, when they were down in 7th in the league at one point and being knocked out of Uefa Cups by Celtic. He wasn't up to much. Like Pirlo, both being deep lying playmakers, they refined their games over time.

Maybe the Totti point wasn't great. At the time the plan was to play De Rossi and Gattuso in the deeper midfield roles and push Pirlo up to fill the void that Totti would leave through injury, with Iaquinta and Toni upfront. They were desperate to get Totti back as Pirlo simply wasn't playing that well during that season and when Totti came back he pushed De Rossi out. But in the final they reverted back to the original plan when Totti was muck and Pirlo was pushed up the field to fill the gap with De Rossi slotting alongside Gattuso. He played well in that game in fairness. Pirlo had been at Milan for 2-3 years before Kaka arrived and they were fairly average. It wasn't until 03 when Kaka entered that they became a force again. He ran the show for them up until 2008. Take him out and they would have been a fairly average and blunt team without Kaka playmaking

StringerBell

In all honesty, this "debate" with TGM has been going on at least a year by now, it never changes.

At some point you just have to stop engaging with someone who is soapboxing (that is to repeatedly ignore all evidence to the contrary of their, sometimes pretty odd, view and just keep churning out the same ****e over and over again)

Its fun to ridicule them alright, for a time, but then it gets a bit sad I find. Pointing out how wrong someone is on something simple they just can't grasp begins to feel like mocking a child for not being able to grasp 2+2=4.

The Golden Miller

StringerBell wrote: »

In all honesty, this "debate" with TGM has been going on at least a year by now, it never changes.

At some point you just have to stop engaging with someone who is soapboxing (that is to repeatedly ignore all evidence to the contrary of their, sometimes pretty odd, view and just keep churning out the same ****e over and over again)

Its fun to ridicule them alright, for a time, but then it gets a bit sad I find. Pointing out how wrong someone is on something simple they just can't grasp begins to feel like mocking a child for not being able to grasp 2+2=4.

Actually I've addressed everything. The only point anyone has is "goals and stats" (extremely hollow when you factor in everything), the same logic that would see Maradona be considered an average player. I've replied to this argument umpteen times. People in their rush to jump in and defend Ronaldo mistakenly think I'm calling him crap. I said he's world class at what he does, score goals. Just like many players in the past were world class at the same thing. None however, have been placed on the same Maradona, Cruyff pedestal that many here have Ronaldo on. That's my point. It takes more than just scoring goals and being average in open play and failing to put in any truely world class performances where he ran the show to be at this level, or there would be at least 50 players there

StringerBell

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Actually I've addressed everything. The only point anyone has is "goals and stats". I've replied to this argument umpteen times. People in their rush to jump in and defend Ronaldo mistakenly think I'm calling him crap. I said he's world class at what he does, score goals. Just like many players in the past were world class at the same thing. None however, have been placed on the same Maradona, Cruyff pedestal that many here have Ronaldo on. That's my point. It takes more than just scoring goals and being average in open play to be at this level, or there would be at least 50 players there

I feel the size adds to the overall point.

The Golden Miller

StringerBell wrote: »

Ah another one who tries to ridicule because someone is saying Ronaldo isn't one of the two best players ever and has no way of actually countering anything said, or the fact that you yourself have jumped in and missed my whole point.

So what's the "evidence to the contrary" that has Ronaldo (as regularly claimed here) as one of the two best players ever, or top 5?

StringerBell

Kirby

I think at this point it would be best for you guys to just agree to disagree and move on.

StringerBell

Who? TGM vs the entire thread like? (Not to mention the other thread!) I echo your sentiments, my entire reason for being here.

It's never going to be any different, would you bother arguing things like evolution with a creationist? Course not, you just feel some pity for them and move on.

Royal Irish

What is this debate all about in a nutshell?

Billy86

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Sorry you not remember what the Ronaldo, RVN, Muller point was?

Yes I do...

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Ronaldo has no bearing on the flow of the game, the way all the greats had, which is why other great goal scorers like Muller and RVN will never transcend to that level either.

Strange then, that you cannot show anything of Muller or RVN doing what Ronaldo does. Oh, and by the way...

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Ronaldo is a world class goal scorer. The best at what he does in today's game with Messi. But Muller was better at doing it.

Also, Muller broke 50 goals in a season just twice in his career. Ronaldo has exceeded that number for the last five straight seasons.

Billy86

StringerBell wrote: »

Who? TGM vs the entire thread like? (Not to mention the other thread!) I echo your sentiments, my entire reason for being here.

It's never going to be any different, would you bother arguing things like evolution with a creationist? Course not, you just feel some pity for them and move on.

You know what, you're right. It's amazing how someone has such a propensity to "forget" what they have been shown and told so many times before in other threads, consider me done with this nonsense.

PS. Charlie Adam is clearly better than Alan Shearer ever was, once you take goals and assists out of the picture.

OK OK, now I'm done!