**Spoilers** Series 9, Episode 10 - "Face the Raven"

VinLieger

Not sure if anyone else has said it but it needs to be done....... Valeyard

ixoy

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

but when the guy before the episode mentions the doctor losing someone I just swore at the TV.

Are you kidding me? Did the announcer actually spoil it?! Glad I watched it in a different way...

Good episode and I thought Clara had two more episodes left so that took me by surprise. Especially as it doesn't quite fit into my theory about her ending up in the Dalek. There's something still there though - that scene where she's trapped in the Dalek still has to mean something. It's the point at which the Doctor knew she was going to die at some point.

martingriff

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Do we think there's still some kind of twist in it?

We started the series with the Doctor's confession dial and him and Clara not having seen one another for a while. There was a moment in the first episode where Clara said "Which one of us is about to die" and the Doctor just made a sad face....

I don't really know that I want there to be a twist, to be honest, it's a sad ending but it worked.

My only niggle (but i do think she is dead) is The Doctors saying it was the longest month of my life 2 weeks ago.

martingriff

CastorTroy wrote: »

Clara's the first companion to die since the relaunch, isn't she? Not counting the one offs like Kylie, or the early Clara's. And not just die, but have her soul taken.

Didn't seem to have the impact I thought it would. Still sad to see her go.

And am I the only one who wouldn't like to know in advance that someone is leaving. Imagine the surprise when a companion dies/leaves or the Doctor regenerates, without everyone knowing the actor was leaving the show.

Technically are Rory and Amy dead??

ixoy

martingriff wrote: »

Technically are Rory and Amy dead??

They just ended up in the past though. Death of old age doesn't count - sure there'll all dead then at some point...

A companion hasn't died (on screen) since Adric (plenty of room to bump them off in the spin-off novels and audios). It's the tragic manner of this death that makes it more affecting.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

martingriff wrote: »

My only niggle (but i do think she is dead) is The Doctors saying it was the longest month of my life 2 weeks ago.

I just took that as the Doctor expressing how important Clara was to him. He thought she was dead for 5 minutes but it felt like month.

Missy had his confession dial at the start of the series though. I can't remember of it was explained how she got it? Also she hasn't been seen since she was telling the Daleks she had a great idea.

I don't mind there being some sort of twist if it's just that he knew she was dead and was jumping back in her timeline to spend more time with her or something like that but having her still be alive in anyway would ruin what was a very moving end to her story. Not to mention the potential it gives to the next series.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

VinLieger wrote: »

Not sure if anyone else has said it but it needs to be done....... Valeyard

What is this Valeyard you speak of?

Penn

I'm conflicted.

The episode itself and the setup was pretty weak, especially trying to find the hidden street, the two-faced aliens and the whole "raven" part. Even Clara's acceptance of death felt somewhat lacking. But the episode was saved by Capaldi's amazing performance. Seriously, he's had a fair few bad stories in these past two seasons, but he has always been absolutely brilliant throughout. He excelled in this episode though.

And overall I'll be sad to see Clara go. She was pretty weak with Smith but her relationship with Capaldi was always brilliant.

VinLieger

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

What is this Valeyard you speak of?

Valeyard is gonna be created in the finale http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Valeyard

The doctor is angry from claras death and the teaser seemed to be showing him stuck in a place full of his nightmares sounds like a perfect combination for the creation of "an amalgamation of the darker side of the Doctor's nature"

Das Kitty

So where'd he get transported to?

I'm hoping for Gallifrey.

pixelburp

Well thanks to some loose lips in the last thread, I already knew Clara's fate, so the ending didn't pack the same surprise and emotional punch that it might have. Still a bit po'ed about that; were this the GoT forum or something there would be pitchforks at dawn

Anyway, I think that episode can be renamed as 'The Chickens that Came Home to Roost'; it's very apt Riggsy made a re-appearance because it seemed like a bookend to what had been a small but significant subplot, started in Flatline, of Clara's increasing arrogance and recklessness, believing she could out-Doctor the Doctor. That kind of thing only ever ends badly, but I was curious just how much the show would punish Clara for her hubris. I guess all the way - and fair play, that last scene was stellar. Even by OH, usually ambivalent towards Dr. Who, was gripped.

And while I stand by last weeks comments about the show becoming a little stale around the edges, that shouldn't mean praise isn't due for the relationships at the heart of this series, because that's where the core strength has been, being both fresh in its own right and fascinating as we watched Clara & the Doc's brutal yet wonderfully co-dependent relationship. I'll also say this, and it's easy to forget, but it wasn't that long ago that the show ran at a ludicrously breakneck pace, barely giving time for characters to take breath, yet now the show seems confident and happy to have whole finales consist of characters talking. Could you imagine that final scene with Clara in series 2 or 3?. More of this please, maybe dial back the phoned-in token monsters that are cropping up now.

Das Kitty wrote: »

So where'd he get transported to?

I'm hoping for Gallifrey.

That was my guess too funnily enough: in fact my very first thought was that it reminded me of (here's another old-series link)

the Death Zone that featured in the 5 Doctors story.

Das Kitty

I was thinking that Moffat would love to have a go at doing Trial of a Timelord properly. Maybe not with the exact same setup, but to put him on trial on Gallifrey in some way or another.

Penn

Das Kitty wrote: »

So where'd he get transported to?

I'm hoping for Gallifrey.

I think I've copped the importance of the confession seal thing. I'll put it in spoilers but it's just my theory:

The Time Lords have been asking "Doctor Who?" so when The Doctor says his real name, they'll know it's the right universe and they can return. Since the Doctor won't say his name to bring them back, maybe his real name is in his confession seal. The Time Lords need someone to open it, say The Doctor's real name, and then they can return, bringing Gallifrey back.

Angron

That's a pretty interesting idea, it'd be kinda cool if that's how it was going to work. I'd like to see how that plays out.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

pixelburp wrote: »

Anyway, I think that episode can be renamed as 'The Chickens that Came Home to Roost'; it's very apt Riggsy made a re-appearance because it seemed like a bookend to what had been a small but significant subplot, started in Flatline, of Clara's increasing arrogance and recklessness, believing she could out-Doctor the Doctor. That kind of thing only ever ends badly, but I was curious just how much the show would punish Clara for her hubris. I guess all the way - and fair play, that last scene was stellar. Even by OH, usually ambivalent towards Dr. Who, was gripped.

I read an interview with the writer of the episode and she said something along the lines of hoping that people don't come away blaming the Doctor for Clara's death or thinking she's being punished for her hubris. Clara was always her own person and the Doctor didn't really influence her that much in her behaviour, they both just lost sight of the fact that she's breakable where he's not. Travelling with him, of course, puts her in more danger from her reckless behaviour than she would have encountered working 9 to 5 in a school.

And while I stand by last weeks comments about the show becoming a little stale around the edges, that shouldn't mean praise isn't due for the relationships at the heart of this series, because that's where the core strength has been, being both fresh in its own right and fascinating as we watched Clara & the Doc's brutal yet wonderfully co-dependent relationship. I'll also say this, and it's easy to forget, but it wasn't that long ago that the show ran at a ludicrously breakneck pace, barely giving time for characters to take breath, yet now the show seems confident and happy to have whole finales consist of characters talking. Could you imagine that final scene with Clara in series 2 or 3?. More of this please, maybe dial back the phoned-in token monsters that are cropping up now.

I think this ties into what we've discussed before, the fact the show is essentially a "family show" and they're struggling a bit at times with the balance between what they seem to want it to be and what a lot of the viewing public want it to be.

It's probably more down to it being on air in the Autumn, at the same time as Strictly, but it's on later than it used to be. When it aired in the Summer I'm sure it used to be on at 6:30. It's all pre watershed but you can probably get away with more at 8pm than at 6pm.

What you say about the character development is spot on. Compare the Capaldi era Clara to the Clara that was with Matt Smith and they might as well be two completely different people. I would have loved to see them deal more with the effects of Danny's death on Clara and explore the darker reasons for her throwing herself almost completely into the Doctor's world. I think that's what they were trying to hint at with her acceptance of her death, but again there's only so far they can go with that kind of thing before they have to throw in an alien or an explosion or whatever.

I'm vaguely looking forward to seeing River and the Doctor interact at Christmas. It's unlikely, given it's Christmas and all, but a 2 header mostly talky episode between Capaldi and Kingston could be great. I doubt that's what they'll give us though. I reckon these last 2 episodes will deal with the Doctor's grief and by Christmas he'll be off on an adventure again.

pixelburp

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I read an interview with the writer of the episode and she said something along the lines of hoping that people don't come away blaming the Doctor for Clara's death or thinking she's being punished for her hubris. Clara was always her own person and the Doctor didn't really influence her that much in her behaviour, they both just lost sight of the fact that she's breakable where he's not. Travelling with him, of course, puts her in more danger from her reckless behaviour than she would have encountered working 9 to 5 in a school.

I don't think you can blame the Doctor for Clara - although the notion of the Doctor as a poor influence on his friends is something that has been touched upon in previous stories (iirc Davros once accused the Doctor of being a hypocrite as has has turned his companions into 'weapons' when it suited) - but there might be a case of wondering if the Doctor could have taken the ChronoLock off Clara. She might have refused, but seems like he was in a better position to fudge a solution than she was. It would have undermined her arc a little, but as it stands she can only learn her lesson once

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

pixelburp wrote: »

I don't think you can blame the Doctor for Clara - although the notion of the Doctor as a poor influence on his friends is something that has been touched upon in previous stories (iirc Davros once accused the Doctor of being a hypocrite as has has turned his companions into 'weapons' when it suited) - but there might be a case of wondering if the Doctor could have taken the ChronoLock off Clara. She might have refused, but seems like he was in a better position to fudge a solution than she was. It would have undermined her arc a little, but as it stands she can only learn her lesson once

I saw an interview with Moffatt too where he suggested the Doctor has been torn between his worry for Clara's reckless behaviour and the joy of having found a companion who is perhaps the most like him of anyone he's traveled with. She was like that anyway, before she met the Doctor, she just wasn't encountering such a variety of danger on her own. So while you can't really blame the Doctor for it you could question should he have stopped it sooner? To be fair this particular "adventure" really wasn't anywhere near as dangerous as other ones. He took precautions to ensure Clara's safety when he realised Me was involved. What happened after that was all on Clara.

A lot of people did seem to take issue with the fact Clara was quite Doctor like. Last year's episode with Rigsy, where she basically was the Doctor, annoyed a lot of people. I think maybe the writer, in her interview, was trying to make it clear that it wasn't a case of Clara being punished for her hubris. I did see some reaction on Twitter to that effect, she got what she deserved etc. etc.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Here's the quotes from the writer...7

I think the crucial thing is that Clara wasn’t trying to be the Doctor. She has always been very much herself, which just so happens to be quite Doctory. Her moment of anger with him in that final scene was really important to me - she was outraged at the implication that somehow he was responsible for her death. That perhaps he could have stopped her from being mad and reckless in trying to save Rigsy. Of course he couldn’t have stopped her! Clara was reckless when we met her - she was always brave and bold, madly rushing into things, determined to be involved no matter what. Her adventures with the Doctor only made her more like that. No, Clara died because she forgot she was mortal. She and the Doctor had so many wins together that she forgot there could be losses. And of course the Doctor can recover from the odd critical mistake – he just gets a new face. Not so his best friend. […]

[…] I really hope no one comes away from ep10 thinking that Clara’s death was punishment for hubris. Clara’s confidence wasn’t excessive, it was brilliant. She was brilliant. The tragedy of Clara’s death isn’t that she overreached. After all, she saved Risgy, didn’t she? No, the tragedy of her death is that even the bravest and cleverest of humans are breakable, and the Doctor is not.

My only issue with that is that she didn't really save Rigsy because Me was going to take the death thing off him anyway. That's why I kind of would have preferred if the rules had made it so Clara could pass it back to Rigsy but the deal would still be broken meaning Me couldn't cancel it for either of them. Clara would then have had to make the decision to let Rigsy die or send him home to his family and die herself. The fact that she got herself into the mess by trying to be the Doctor still would have stood but she would have died a bit more heroically.

I think maybe they wanted the death to be senseless though. They were making a point.

Mr Bloat

I really loved this episode, even though I'm not glad that Clara is gone. It was a good send off for her. When one of the characters was asking "why do they always run?" when the first guy was being killed by the Shade, I thought that Clara's bravery in walking to her doom would result in the Shade sparing her. Obviously I was wrong!

I thought that the Street was far more like Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere than Harry Potter, which a lot of people were comparing it to.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

My only issue with that is that she didn't really save Rigsy because Me was going to take the death thing off him anyway. That's why I kind of would have preferred if the rules had made it so Clara could pass it back to Rigsy but the deal would still be broken meaning Me couldn't cancel it for either of them. Clara would then have had to make the decision to let Rigsy die or send him home to his family and die herself. The fact that she got herself into the mess by trying to be the Doctor still would have stood but she would have died a bit more heroically.

I think maybe they wanted the death to be senseless though. They were making a point.

I think they are also setting up a reason for The Doctor to detest Me. The way it played out, Me lured The Doctor there under false pretences which resulted in Clara's death. It will probably also have an effect on the stability and the trust in the Street. After all, Me has now broken her own rules of how the Street is governed and policed with her subterfuge.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Mr Bloat wrote: »

I think they are also setting up a reason for The Doctor to detest Me. The way it played out, Me lured The Doctor there under false pretences which resulted in Clara's death. It will probably also have an effect on the stability and the trust in the Street. After all, Me has now broken her own rules of how the Street is governed and policed with her subterfuge.

Yeah, but even if it had played out that Clara had to chose whether she died or Rigsy did it still would have been Me's fault for luring them there.

I think it's safe to say Maisie Williams is 100% not the new companion although she does seem to be set up as an ongoing adversary. I think GoT would prevent her being a full time character but she did manage to film (at least) 3 episodes this series so she could feature a good bit next series too. Unless of course they get rid of her in the next 2 episodes.

McLoughlin

I'd say Maisie Williams will probably end up working with Big Finish

jasonb

Mr Bloat wrote: »

I thought that the Street was far more like Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere than Harry Potter, which a lot of people were comparing it to.

Oh good call, and thanks for reminding me of that excellent book, must read it again!

J.

pixelburp

Yeah, I got much more of a Neverwhere vibe from the Trap street than Harry Potter, although the latter is probably more culturally recognisable these days; the residents' existence felt a bit more ramshackle, even if the goofy glasses on one of the alien characters seemed to be riffing on the Potter books

Orion

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I know it's a family show though so to have Clara screaming in agony as she dies the only sound you hear at the end, well, it might have been a bit too much for the little uns.

Even as it was my kids were crying. It was a great ending for Clara. Now wondering who the next companion will be. Yes I've moved on already

Orion

ixoy wrote: »

Are you kidding me? Did the announcer actually spoil it?! Glad I watched it in a different way...

He did. I already knew - well suspected - from one of the trailers that she'd be dying rather than leaving. But for those that didn't the announcer said there was a loss for the doctor. Twat.

connemara man

I'll miss Clara I liked her. The episode had an odd pace through out though. It laboured through bits and rushed through others.

The death itself I really thought there would be a doctory fix to it. Like I never thought until her soul left her that she'd die.

So it all felt flat to me. Everyone acting was spot on. But the build up in episode wasn't great. I'll have to watch it again.

flazio

jasonb wrote: »

Oh good call, and thanks for reminding me of that excellent book, must read it again!

J.

There was a rather good BBC Radio play adaptation a couple of years ago. Starring James McAvoy, Natalie Dormer, Benedict Cumberbatch and Anthony (Stewart) Head.
Also there was a mid 90s tv adaptation starring one Peter Capaldi.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Did anyone watch River on BBC lately? I was thinking how great it would be to have Abi Morgan write the entire next series of Doctor Who as basically River. (If you weren't watching River was a London police detective who was "haunted" by the dead, usually the cases he was working on but also his murdered partner. It was really about mental health and grief.)

And then I got to thinking how great it would be if someone like Abi Morgan or Sally Wainwright became the new show runner after Moffatt. A really well crafted character driven Doctor Who.......... that would probably get cancelled after two episodes because there was too much talking and not enough space lions.... I can but dream.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Apparently there was a cut scene from after Clara died.

The_Valeyard

VinLieger wrote: »

Not sure if anyone else has said it but it needs to be done....... Valeyard

Give me time