Connacht Rugby Thread - Part III - The Violence of the Lams

Billysays no

connachta wrote: »

Had a flash this morning, remembered McCartney "can play at both hooker and prop and previously played under Connacht coach Pat Lam at Auckland."

Audacious but why not

issues :
Hadn't played there for Connacht apart from 10 minutes against Zebre in his first game in Green
Useless if White is back for Glasgow (Bealham switch to LH)
Would sacrifice his talent by putting him on the bench.

Advantages
Gives JHW his chance, looked good against Munster and is a turnover machine as Buckley would have been
McCartney can come in for Loughney at the same time as Heffernan for JHW, meaning the latter can focus on open play with Tom throwing for lineouts
Would rest him for the first time since January by putting him on the bench.
He his 112 kg, best weight for a LH
Bealham can be kept as TH, Cooney is backup, and no Ah You/O'Donnell needed in the 23

Connachta, what are you like. Yesterday I was thinking, OK we have an issue in the front row. So I started to move them around and I came up with Finlay at loose head and tom at tight head. And in the middle was that beast from Offaly delahunt. And then I was happy so slept. Woke up and it still looked great to me.

Bazzo

Ah lads ye're gone off the reservation a bit here. Tom hasn't propped in 2+ years and as far as I know he NEVER packed down as a tight head. There's nothing wrong with Loughney, Bealham, O'Donnell, JP Cooney and there's a good chance we'll have White back for Glasgow.

Billysays no

Zzippy wrote: »

Just no. O'Donnell is well able to be trusted with the job, what does it say to a young upcoming prop to pick a hooker ahead of him? Awful way to treat players, not to mind McCartney hasn't propped in years, nor trained for it. One of your more ridiculous suggestions.

Conan looked overweight and slow with the Irish u-20s. Nothing that Connacht need.

FACECUTTR

Billysays no wrote: »

Conan looked overweight and slow with the Irish u-20s. Nothing that Connacht need.

Rodney ?? At least O'Donnell would be playing for something.

ClanofLams

Billysays no wrote: »

Zzippy wrote: »

Just no. O'Donnell is well able to be trusted with the job, what does it say to a young upcoming prop to pick a hooker ahead of him? Awful way to treat players, not to mind McCartney hasn't propped in years, nor trained for it. One of your more ridiculous suggestions.

Conan looked overweight and slow with the Irish u-20s. Nothing that Connacht need.

Jesus. He's a very good prop prospect who hasn't let Connacht down in his performances to date. Pace isn't exactly important for a prop (albeit a welcome bonus) and he looked to have plenty of stamina anytime I have watched him. Him 'looking overweight' is irrelevant.

Bazzo

Billysays no wrote: »

Zzippy wrote: »

Just no. O'Donnell is well able to be trusted with the job, what does it say to a young upcoming prop to pick a hooker ahead of him? Awful way to treat players, not to mind McCartney hasn't propped in years, nor trained for it. One of your more ridiculous suggestions.

Conan looked overweight and slow with the Irish u-20s. Nothing that Connacht need.

Oh no, you haven't taken a dislike to him Billy have you? Are we going to have to listen to you batter the poor lad every time he pulls on a jersey for the next 3 years?? :P

Billysays no

FACECUTTR wrote: »

Rodney ?? At least O'Donnell would be playing for something.

That's exactly who he reminds me of facecuttr. Conan is way overweight to the point he is effectively useless to the connacht style of play. Tom is a highly physical player but has the dexterity to also play the Connacht game. And any game delahunt has played has been, well simply great. Or maybe its just me.

connemara man

Billysays no wrote: »

That's exactly who he reminds me of facecuttr. Conan is way overweight to the point he is effectively useless to the connacht style of play. Tom is a highly physical player but has the dexterity to also play the Connacht game. And any game delahunt has played has been, well simply great. Or maybe its just me.

Billy he's 20 he'll improve.

We are in a precarious position of loosing 2 starting props in recent weeks so we have to make do. Conan ay 20 coming in with a point to prove will clearly be better than Rodney who clearly signed out in January. Keeping players in their national positions is best. I'd say Bealham may end up playing a lot of rugby at TH

FACECUTTR

Billysays no wrote: »

That's exactly who he reminds me of facecuttr. Conan is way overweight to the point he is effectively useless to the connacht style of play. Tom is a highly physical player but has the dexterity to also play the Connacht game. And any game delahunt has played has been, well simply great. Or maybe its just me.

Rodney can't be trusted after his last 2 appearances. I'd rather have him coming on with 20 to go than Rodney. Agreed on him looking a bit overweight.

connachta

Bazzo wrote: »

Ah lads ye're gone off the reservation a bit here. Tom hasn't propped in 2+ years and as far as I know he NEVER packed down as a tight head. There's nothing wrong with Loughney, Bealham, O'Donnell, JP Cooney and there's a good chance we'll have White back for Glasgow.

No, for LH only, he played nearly a whole season there.
The only realistic idea I put forward is 1/17 Loughney/McCartney 2/16 JHW/Heff 3/18 Bealham/JP. Nothing else

Billysays no

connemara man wrote: »

Billy he's 20 he'll improve.

Connemara man i consider that a very precarious viewpoint for our 'precarious' position. If I were to liken the Connacht team, it would like the Irish u-20 team. Difference is we are a highly trained professional team. We play the wide expansive and exciting game that the u-20s play. However Conan simply did a pushing job with Ireland. It is simply not good enough at Connacht. Look at how Finlay, tom and Denis not only take the hit but play that offloading game. Yes he is 20 and maybe he will improve. But not a hope would I field Conan O'Donnell for our remaining games. He showed no aptitude to do so at u-20 level with Ireland so why would he do so at Connacht. He is currently an overweight and slow player and has no place in the 23. IMO.

connemara man

Billysays no wrote: »

Connemara man i consider that a very precarious viewpoint for our 'precarious' position. If I were to liken the Connacht team, it would like the Irish u-20 team. Difference is we are a highly trained professional team. We play the wide expansive and exciting game that the u-20s play. However Conan simply did a pushing job with Ireland. It is simply not good enough at Connacht. Look at how Finlay, tom and Denis not only take the hit but play that offloading game. Yes he is 20 and maybe he will improve. But not a hope would I field Conan O'Donnell for our remaining games. He showed no aptitude to do so at u-20 level with Ireland so why would he do so at Connacht. He is currently an overweight and slow player and has no place in the 23. IMO.

If its a straight choice between him and Rodney though any sane man would choose O Donnell. Rodney should have the skillset you outline but is choosing not to display it, at least Conan with a good couple of weeks of intense training with the senior squad should do a better job than Rodney Ah No.

Jamie Dever and Saba Meunargia are both year 3 in the academy yet no one has thought of them which speaks higher of Conan than what you would have me believe.

I ask one thing of you Billy as he's only year 1 academy when/if he improves please give him his dues. you kinda hung onto your issues with players even if they improved

Billysays no

connemara man wrote: »

If its a straight choice between him and Rodney though any sane man would choose O Donnell. Rodney should have the skillset you outline but is choosing not to display it, at least Conan with a good couple of weeks of intense training with the senior squad should do a better job than Rodney Ah No.

Jamie Dever and Saba Meunargia are both year 3 in the academy yet no one has thought of them which speaks higher of Conan than what you would have me believe.

I ask one thing of you Billy as he's only year 1 academy when/if he improves please give him his dues. you kinda hung onto your issues with players even if they improved

Hear you on this. However not Conan, not just yet

b.gud

Bazzo wrote: »

Oh no, you haven't taken a dislike to him Billy have you? Are we going to have to listen to you batter the poor lad every time he pulls on a jersey for the next 3 years?? :P

Given some of his previous candidates for dislike have been Henshaw and Marmion now might be a good time to invest in O'Donnell

Billysays no

b.gud wrote: »

Given some of his previous candidates for dislike have been Henshaw and Marmion now might be a good time to invest in O'Donnell

thanks for your faith in me. robbie still aint learnt the game at connacht. marmion has finally got there. No further critisism on him

connemara man

Billysays no wrote: »

Hear you on this. However not Conan, not just yet

then who is our first choice front row and sub bench?

Loughney McCartney Bealham
Cooney Heff O Donnell/Dever/Saba

Rodney can move north yesterday as far as I'm concerned

no Buckley or White available for the foreseeable

Billysays no

connemara man wrote: »

then who is our first choice front row and sub bench?

Loughney McCartney Bealham
Cooney Heff O Donnell/Dever/Saba

Rodney can move north yesterday as far as I'm concerned

no Buckley or White available for the foreseeable

belaham (simply required to cover denis). delahunt, mcartney. all able to play the connacht way.
backup loughney, heff/jhw, and then i think of heff as a flexible solution. so it would be loughney/jhw/heff as our replacements. It certainly wouldnt be my front row but its a fast and furious second option which suits the team.

And if you were to rise me on this i would say i have, a bit, but not much time for nathan. Look how buckley and bealham pass the ball and then then there is nathan

connemara man

Billysays no wrote: »

belaham (simply required to cover denis). delahunt, mcartney. all able to play the connacht way.
backup loughney, heff/jhw, and then i think of heff as a flexible solution. so it would be loughney/jhw/heff as our replacements. It certainly wouldnt be my front row but its a fast and furious second option which suits the team.

And if you were to rise me on this i would say i have, a bit, but not much time for nathan. Look how buckley and bealham pass the ball and then then there is nathan

but what about you know the scrum. Even Treviso will have a good time against that and the way we play usually mean a fair few knock ons. If the fundamentals of the game aren't right we'll be playing at a severe disadvantage.

You are talking about putting the team at a serious disadvantage just to have more ball players on the pitch

Billysays no

connemara man wrote: »

but what about you know the scrum. Even Treviso will have a good time against that and the way we play usually mean a fair few knock ons. If the fundamentals of the game aren't right we'll be playing at a severe disadvantage.

You are talking about putting the team at a serious disadvantage just to have more ball players on the pitch

every player on the pitch is a ball player. thats it. eyes open?

connemara man

Billysays no wrote: »

every player on the pitch is a ball player. thats it. eyes open?

so when we are giving away penalty after penalty because our scrum is collapsing it'll be ok because everyone on the pitch is great at ball handling?

Bazzo

Billysays no wrote: »

connemara man wrote: »

then who is our first choice front row and sub bench?

Loughney McCartney Bealham
Cooney Heff O Donnell/Dever/Saba

Rodney can move north yesterday as far as I'm concerned

no Buckley or White available for the foreseeable

belaham (simply required to cover denis). delahunt, mcartney. all able to play the connacht way.
backup loughney, heff/jhw, and then i think of heff as a flexible solution. so it would be loughney/jhw/heff as our replacements. It certainly wouldnt be my front row but its a fast and furious second option which suits the team.

And if you were to rise me on this i would say i have, a bit, but not much time for nathan. Look how buckley and bealham pass the ball and then then there is nathan

You want not one, but TWO hookers who have never played tighthead(the anchor of the scrum) playing there?! Have you been drinking Billy?!?!

If passing and handling was everything then teams would send out 15 backs.

Billysays no

connemara man wrote: »

so when we are giving away penalty after penalty because our scrum is collapsing it'll be ok because everyone on the pitch is great at ball handling?

what are you asking me to concede as an opinion. if you watched the munster game muldowney passed as well as belham passed as well as muldoon passed as well as healy passed. and yes i am saying everybody on the field has learnt to pass in a way no other province has been able. hence my objection to conan. it simply takes time to learn. and every scrum will collapse for whatever reason. It does not distort how we play

connemara man

Billysays no wrote: »

what are you asking me to concede as an opinion. if you watched the munster game muldowney passed as well as belham passed as well as muldoon passed as well as healy passed. and yes i am saying everybody on the field has learnt to pass in a way no other province has been able. hence my objection to conan. it simply takes time to learn.

But we also were on top in the scrum which gives the platform for the backline

Billysays no

connemara man wrote: »

But we also were on top in the scrum which gives the platform for the backline

Now the answer on that is simply no. If you are on top in the scrum it is all steam ahead. I'm fighting on an issue i dont want to fight on. I do not agree that the big guys are the big guys and the fast guys are the fast guys. Connacht do not play that stuff. so i dont ever want to see a big guy in a place because he should be in a big guy place. he should be there for a reason. Bealham and Buckley are as fast as Healy at offloads. How immense is that

Yeah_Right

connemara man wrote: »

Billy he's 20 he'll improve.

We are in a precarious position of loosing 2 starting props in recent weeks so we have to make do. Conan ay 20 coming in with a point to prove will clearly be better than Rodney who clearly signed out in January. Keeping players in their national positions is best. I'd say Bealham may end up playing a lot of rugby at TH

I just want to clarify something. Some posters are writing off a 20 year old prop? This guy Conan is 20, has shown enough ability to make the Irish u20 team but isn't ready to play Pro 12 yet? A prop. And some people are saying he has no hope?

connemara man

Billysays no wrote: »

Now the answer on that is simply no. If you are on top in the scrum it is all steam ahead. I'm fighting on an issue i dont want to fight on. I do not agree that the big guys are the big guys and the fast guys are the fast guys. Connacht do not play that stuff. so i dont ever want to see a big guy in a place because he should be in a big guy place. he should be there for a reason. Bealham and Buckley are as fast as Healy at offloads. How immense is that

So like Bazzo says why not play 15 backs?

Connacht are way more pragmatic than that and if you don't want to see that that's fine. but we have a good maul and good scrum all because of big guys. We also need to defend against scrums mauls and lineouts

Our style is very much heads up rugby and playing whats in front of you and if that means scrum and maul thats what we do. if its run from our own 20 meter line we do that as well.

connemara man

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I just want to clarify something. Some posters are writing off a 20 year old prop? This guy Conan is 20, has shown enough ability to make the Irish u20 team but isn't ready to play Pro 12 yet? A prop. And some people are saying he has no hope?

not some people one person. he wants an out and out ball player and is willing to remove balance in the scrum for it.

I thought he was grand for the u20s he played for them like Mike Ross does for the seniors. keep the scrum going, put hits in when he can.

He can only improve given he's 20. and seems to be preferred by other fans to the two 23 year old tight heads in the academy says a lot for me anyway

its_phil

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I just want to clarify something. Some posters are writing off a 20 year old prop? This guy Conan is 20, has shown enough ability to make the Irish u20 team but isn't ready to play Pro 12 yet? A prop. And some people are saying he has no hope?

I just want to clarify something. It's one poster and no one else.

its_phil

Billysays no wrote: »

Now the answer on that is simply no. If you are on top in the scrum it is all steam ahead. I'm fighting on an issue i dont want to fight on. I do not agree that the big guys are the big guys and the fast guys are the fast guys. Connacht do not play that stuff. so i dont ever want to see a big guy in a place because he should be in a big guy place. he should be there for a reason. Bealham and Buckley are as fast as Healy at offloads. How immense is that

New low.

Billysays no

connemara man wrote: »

not some people one person

i feel very bad that my opinion seems to represent nobody elses. Shucks.

Yeah_Right

connemara man wrote: »

not some people one person. he wants an out and out ball player and is willing to remove balance in the scrum for it.

I thought he was grand for the u20s he played for them like Mike Ross does for the seniors. keep the scrum going, put hits in when he can.

He can only improve given he's 20. and seems to be preferred by other fans to the two 23 year old tight heads in the academy says a lot for me anyway

Cheers. I thought I must have been reading it wrong. A 20 year old prop ffs!! Madness. Never seen a prop who was the finished article at 23 let alone 20. It'll be a few years till we see how good he is.

Billysays no

its_phil wrote: »

I just want to clarify something. It's one poster and no one else.

I would double thank you its_phil but it appears i am constrained by modern technology

connemara man

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Cheers. I thought I must have been reading it wrong. A 20 year old prop ffs!! Madness. Never seen a prop who was the finished article at 23 let alone 20. It'll be a few years till we see how good he is.

in the u 20s he's a decent prop (for the level he's at) seems to have leapfrogged the two older props in the academy in fans eyes. In a few years he'll be good to go and the people of Sligo will be delighted as well

Billysays no

i think the point is very well made connemara man?

Redo91

O'Donnell is injured lads. He's been going around with a boot on for weeks. I think he picked up the injury during the 6N. Hoping to be fit for the Under 20 World Cup.

connemara man

Redo91 wrote: »

O'Donnell is injured lads. He's been going around with a boot on for weeks. I think he picked up the injury during the 6N. Hoping to be fit for the Under 20 World Cup.

God damn it.

so Dever or Sabu

Billysays no

its_phil wrote: »

New low.

Honestly your opinion. It may be an utter low for you. Its totally contrary with me. I believe in this aj stuff, I believe in Muldoon. Its my team as much as yours its-phil. Take your shot

connachta

Yeah_Right wrote: »

connemara man wrote: »

not some people one person. he wants an out and out ball player and is willing to remove balance in the scrum for it.

I thought he was grand for the u20s he played for them like Mike Ross does for the seniors. keep the scrum going, put hits in when he can.

He can only improve given he's 20. and seems to be preferred by other fans to the two 23 year old tight heads in the academy says a lot for me anyway

Cheers. I thought I must have been reading it wrong. A 20 year old prop ffs!! Madness. Never seen a prop who was the finished article at 23 let alone 20. It'll be a few years till we see how good he is.

Was about to say the same. O'Donnell, injured or not can't play now. We're talking about play-off FFS not giving gametime to a young prospect. I challenge any of you to find a 20-years-old PROP (SH or hooker would have been ok, it's totally different) who has played the Pro12 semi-final in the last 10 years

RoutineBites

I'm a bit out of the loop on this front lads, but where's Rodney? Is he injured or are we refusing to play him cause of the Ulster deal? I seriously hope it's not the latter . . .

spurscormac

RoutineBites wrote: »

I'm a bit out of the loop on this front lads, but where's Rodney? Is he injured or are we refusing to play him cause of the Ulster deal? I seriously hope it's not the latter . . .

It's more like Rodney is refusing to play cause of the Ulster deal.
He has been awful in his last two appearances.

connemara man

RoutineBites wrote: »

I'm a bit out of the loop on this front lads, but where's Rodney? Is he injured or are we refusing to play him cause of the Ulster deal? I seriously hope it's not the latter . . .

Personally I wouldn't play him. He doesn't look like a player who wants to be in green. And if in injury crisis everyone who plays needs to play above themselves. So I'd rather an Academy player with something to prove over him.

Edinburgh was worse for me. Subbed on and of in 7 minutes is disgraceful. Then given a second chance in front of his new club and you can blame him for 2 of Ulster's trys

connachta

RoutineBites wrote: »

I'm a bit out of the loop on this front lads, but where's Rodney? Is he injured or are we refusing to play him cause of the Ulster deal? I seriously hope it's not the latter . . .

In Ulster in his head it appears. If Lam manage to motivate him, I'd still play him for Treviso

If not it's either the Kiwi touch, McCartney as substitute LH where he played a few months in N-Z (and I've never ever said TH)

Or the Georgian touch, Saba Menuargia as substitute TH, didn't do that bad in Challenge Cup last year!

Let's remember we're talking about just 20 minutes in Italy, White will hopefully be back for Glasgow, Bealham will switch to LH, no more headaches

Buer

connachta wrote: »

I challenge any of you to find a 20-years-old PROP (SH or hooker would have been ok, it's totally different) who has played the Pro12 semi-final in the last 10 years

Well, given that play offs haven't been around 10 years that will limit the search but challenge accepted nonetheless.

Samson Lee. 2013.

wp_rathead

connachta wrote: »

Was about to say the same. O'Donnell, injured or not can't play now. We're talking about play-off FFS not giving gametime to a young prospect. I challenge any of you to find a 20-years-old PROP (SH or hooker would have been ok, it's totally different) who has played the Pro12 semi-final in the last 10 years

I'm confused. In a later post you advocate for Saba to be on the bench. Yes he is older but Conan seems a better player at the moment (and this isn't even talking potential which Conan appears to have a higher ceiling)
I know the argument is redundant seen as O'Donnell is injured but still a bit head scratching to try figure out where you are coming from..

Robbo

Saba was notable in the training pictures posted today. Also Bundee looks to be in reasonable shape.

The Lost Sheep

Saba has exams this week and next week so highly doubt he'll be travelling to Italy.

connachta

Buer wrote: »

connachta wrote: »

I challenge any of you to find a 20-years-old PROP (SH or hooker would have been ok, it's totally different) who has played the Pro12 semi-final in the last 10 years

Well, given that play offs haven't been around 10 years that will limit the search but challenge accepted nonetheless.

Samson Lee. 2013.

all right

But 1) nearly one year older than O'D, at this age it matters

2) here's what happened

minute 10 The Red scrum is disrupted by a fierce effort
minute 38 a solid scrum, allowing Pienaar keep play in the Scarlets 22.
minute 40 Pienaar's conversion hit an upright but he kicked a penalty after the Scarlets scrum collapsed as first-half time expired.

Cosmo Kramer

I think we'll have to accept that we're going to need to pick Rodney on the bench in Treviso. With Bealham able to cover both sides he mightn't need to be introduced until the game is finished as a contest anyway, and if it's a close game he mightn't need to be brought on at all.

Hopefully there will be another option for Glasgow and the playoffs.

connachta

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

I think we'll have to accept that we're going to need to pick Rodney on the bench in Treviso. With Bealham able to cover both sides he mightn't need to be introduced until the game is finished as a contest anyway, and if it's a close game he mightn't need to be brought on at all.

Hopefully there will be another option for Glasgow and the playoffs.

Perfectly agree

wp_rathead wrote: »

connachta wrote: »

Was about to say the same. O'Donnell, injured or not can't play now. We're talking about play-off FFS not giving gametime to a young prospect. I challenge any of you to find a 20-years-old PROP (SH or hooker would have been ok, it's totally different) who has played the Pro12 semi-final in the last 10 years

I'm confused. In a later post you advocate for Saba to be on the bench. Yes he is older but Conan seems a better player at the moment (and this isn't even talking potential which Conan appears to have a higher ceiling)
I know the argument is redundant seen as O'Donnell is injured but still a bit head scratching to try figure out where you are coming from..

I'll try to sum up cleary

1) Pat will evaluate how AhYou is involved, if he is, he'll be on the bench behind Bealham, waiting for White to be back (Loughney/Cooney LH)

2) if he's already Ulsterman in his head, it should be either 1) Lough 17) McCartney 3) Bealham 18) J.P

OR 3) 1) Bealham 17) Lough 3) J.P 18) Saba . Main advantage is that it prepares Bealham to switch when White is back, and Saba has much more experience with Challenge Cup, Eagles and AIL that O'Donnell. + I admit I love Georgian props..

Number 137

Billysays no wrote: »

Connemara man i consider that a very precarious viewpoint for our 'precarious' position. If I were to liken the Connacht team, it would like the Irish u-20 team. Difference is we are a highly trained professional team. We play the wide expansive and exciting game that the u-20s play. However Conan simply did a pushing job with Ireland. It is simply not good enough at Connacht. Look at how Finlay, tom and Denis not only take the hit but play that offloading game. Yes he is 20 and maybe he will improve. But not a hope would I field Conan O'Donnell for our remaining games. He showed no aptitude to do so at u-20 level with Ireland so why would he do so at Connacht. He is currently an overweight and slow player and has no place in the 23. IMO.

Writing off a year 1 academy prospect, who is a prop and only 20 years of age is simply outrageous. I'm sure plenty of players in this Connacht squad where not particularly impressive at the same age, but have blossomed with the right coaching.