Connacht Rugby Thread - Part III - The Violence of the Lams

ClanofLams

Let's not lose the run of ourselves. It was an awful evening but we have seven wins from nine. Had we either scrum half for the full 80 we would have eight.

Darragh Leader is a good young player, people tend to forget he's only 22 and he was called up the extended Ireland training squad a year ago.

Hopefully none of the injuries are serious though Roux's looked pretty bad.

Bazzo

flouncer wrote: »

OK bazzo, I do enjoy having a laugh. But I did say some time back that delahunt is an utter beast. I said that Buckley/delahunt/white would do the business. As they have. But instead our front row today did not compare. I did say this! It upsets me hugely. We lost a game we should have won

Unless Delahunt or White would have slotted in at scrum half when both Porter and Marmion got injured I don't see how they would have been the winning of the game today, and just sayin they would be doesn't make it true either. We should have been further ahead at half time, true, but that wasn't because we were getting minced in the scrum. Our front row was fine.

flouncer

flouncer wrote: »

OK bazzo, I do enjoy having a laugh. But I did say some time back that delahunt is an utter beast. I said that Buckley/delahunt/white would do the business. As they have. But instead our front row today did not compare. I did say this! It upsets me hugely. We lost a game we should have won

Ur opinion, as I have mine.

Bazzo

flouncer wrote: »

Did I blame the team?

flouncer wrote: »

OK bazzo, I do enjoy having a laugh. But I did say some time back that delahunt is an utter beast. I said that Buckley/delahunt/white would do the business. As they have. But instead our front row today did not compare. I did say this! It upsets me hugely. We lost a game we should have won

Yes, you pointed at our front row in your post about why we lost? Our front row performed well overall so I'm not sure why you are blaming their selection for the loss?

ClanofLams

Bazzo wrote: »

Yes, you pointed at our front row in your post about why we lost? Our front row performed well overall so I'm not sure why you are blaming their selection for the loss?

Added to this maybe Delahunt & White aren't 100%. There's a lot we are not informed of from the outside.

We were unlucky but equally need to take responsibility for letting them still be in touch at half time, pretty weak maul defence & not exploiting our own point scoring chances.

Should have taken 3 from that penalty on 37/38 and gone in 6 in front at least.

flouncer

We picked a weakened team. I say no more. I said it before the game and it was proved after the game. We treated Cardiff with zero respect. So be it. It was a huge game for Connacht and we screwed up. Poor management. Not very good team selection.

errlloyd

There are two ways to look at it.

5 points from munster and Cardiff away, sure that's about right? Maybe disappointed ye couldn't get more.

Or

5 points from munster and Cardiff away, but the team ye are competing with (munster) only got one, and a team you'd hope to be clear of come may got 4.

flouncer

errlloyd wrote: »

There are two ways to look at it.

5 points from munster and Cardiff away, sure that's about right? Maybe disappointed ye couldn't get more.

Or

5 points from munster and Cardiff away, but the team ye are competing with (munster) only got one, and a team you'd hope to be clear of come may got 4.

Happy with many things. We did go all out for Munster with our best team. So then we picked our team versus Cardiff. What's the point. We go all out to play Munster and we do the opposite against Cardiff. We do get the same points no matter what !!!!

flouncer

Bazzo wrote: »

Blaming the team selection for the loss tonight is incredibly harsh and IMO just wrong. I don't see what impact White could have had that Ah You didn't as the scrum was rock solid and Rodney put in a good performance in the loose. Same goes for Naoupu coming in to the second row, affected the scrum not at all and as a back row he's naturally fairly effective outside of the set piece anyway.

Can't see how switching TOH & Leader's positions would have made any difference.

Difference between moving forward and being simply stationary. That is an advantage.

flouncer

Week in week out it is aki and toh. Ronaldsons runs. Boy have we injuries to deal with. If toh doesn't hit the 6n panel I would be shocked. Fantastic to see Connelly get player of the week from the independent. And I still remain bitter about our front row. If it was our proper front row we wud have walked over the Cardiff line time and again

its_phil

flouncer wrote: »

Difference between moving forward and being simply stationary. That is an advantage.

That's not what the TH prop does, he locks the scrum and absorbs pressure from opposition LH

flouncer

Thanks. At least I understand now.

flouncer

Now I know I'm a bitter feckeer but that was an utterly stupid team selection. And we lost on the basis of it

Bazzo

Ah here flounce you'll have to give it a rest with the team selection or start at least backing up what you're saying. Rodney in particular had quite a good game with several solid carries and our scrum being strong throughout the game. Heffernan's darts were good and again, our scrum was solid. His performance was fine as well.

You're just saying over and over that we would have won with Delahunt and White. How? Would they have been running in tries? It doesn't make any sense. Where we lost the game was lacking a clinical edge before half time(we should have gone in 10 points up imo) and in the second half being ****ed by injury. There wasn't a damn thing anybody could have done about us having to play 40 mins with a winger as a scrum half. We lost all shape in attack and struggled to attack as effectively because of it(some individual brilliance aside).

connachta

Bazzo wrote: »

Ah here flounce you'll have to give it a rest with the team selection or start at least backing up what you're saying. Rodney in particular had quite a good game with several solid carries and our scrum being strong throughout the game. Heffernan's darts were good and again, our scrum was solid. His performance was fine as well.

Actually think the scrum could have been more dominant, the ref was kind on "not straight throws". But I agree with you, the game was lost more on handling errors..

nobbo

No luck at all with flights. Lads are getting a bus to Heathrow to get home...

OldRio

The ref was poor but as for the TMO? Incompetent beyond belief.

freyners

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Wasn't disgraceful. Was one of Andys poorest games in a while though
Connachts handling didn't help them. Referee made a few poor decisions and not helped by some calls made by assistants/TMO but injuries to Connacht again was an issue

Nonsense.

Not quite sure the relationship, if any, you have with the ref, but having watched some of the match back he had a shocker of a game with some of the calls.
I refuse to blame him for the loss, we made our own mistakes, but hes got some very basic calls wrong and completely made a **** up of the laws on one occasion. That should be his last pro 12 game for a good period of time. Off days yes but he looked out of his depth yesterday

The Lost Sheep

freyners wrote: »

Not quite sure the relationship, if any, you have with the ref But having watched some of the match back he had a shocker of a game with some of the calls I refuse to blame him for the loss but hes got some very basic calls wrong and completely made a **** up of the laws on one occasion. That should be his last pro 12 game for a good period of time. Off days yes but he looked out of his depth yesterday

I know Andy through his role as a development officer but that's completely irrelevant.
He did make some mistakes. He most likely will be back doing some AIL/provincial A games next and will go back pro12 soon. He wasn't at all helped by a poor side-line.
What's a "good period of time"?

freyners

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I know Andy through his role as a development officer but that's completely irrelevant.
He did make some mistakes. He most likely will be back doing some AIL/provincial A games next and will go back pro12 soon. He wasn't at all helped by a poor side-line.
What's a "good period of time"?

Wasnt trying to infer anything, you seemed familiar so was just worried it was a close friend/family member

At least 2/3 rounds of games id imagine, with some time on the sideline before hes put in the middle again. I'm not familiar with the procedures if a ref is judged to have a poor performance but id imagine thats what is like. Review from the officer, demotion for a few games to take him out of the spotlight and get some confidence back, work your way back up

I agree he wasnt helped at all but taking out that he was still poor

mogwai81

How did Peter Robb play at centre?

Zzippy

nobbo wrote: »

No luck at all with flights. Lads are getting a bus to Heathrow to get home...

At least this week some of them should get a rest, and Newcastle don't play til tomorrow anyway, so they have a 5-day turnaround to Friday.

Zzippy

freyners wrote: »

Wasnt trying to infer anything, you seemed familiar so was just worried it was a close friend/family member

At least 2/3 rounds of games id imagine, with some time on the sideline before hes put in the middle again. I'm not familiar with the procedures if a ref is judged to have a poor performance but id imagine thats what is like. Review from the officer, demotion for a few games to take him out of the spotlight and get some confidence back, work your way back up

I agree he wasnt helped at all but taking out that he was still poor

On reflection, he made some bad decisions - he missed Aki being taken out in the air, and he gave that penalty against Carty, but the other howlers were called by the touch judge or TMO - the knock on over the line and the reversal of the penalty against Muldoon were called by his officials. They should also be subject to review. He definitely seemed to be giving Cardiff the benefit in the second half with breakdown decisions. I think he has the makings of a fine ref but he needs to get more consistency.

mogwai81 wrote: »

How did Peter Robb play at centre?

Had some fine breaks, knocked on a couple of times but generally very good when he came on.

Bazzo

I know I said I'd shut up about the refereeing because I don't like whining about it, but I do think it was a poor performance. We can't blame him for the loss but there were a few obviously bad calls:

-Invented a penalty for Connolly going off his feet(Patchell missed the kick anyway but that doesn't justify it).
-Invented a forward pass by TOH in what actually could have been called as a knock on/intentional knock on against Cardiff.
-Completely missed Aki being taken on the air, and didn't go back to it when it was shown again on the big screen while Aki was calling for a penalty.
-Penalised Carty for not wrapping, even with the aid of the TMO! When it was clear as day that he did.
-Completely missed a shoulder charge on Muldoon in a ruck with no attempt to wrap.

There were also a couple little annoying things like how he decided to spend a minute warning Muldoon about giving away penalties in the red zone after Cardiff had been penalised in their red zone(quite a bit longer than he seemingly spoke to any member of the Blue's team) or how he just ignored the fact that Vosawai threw a few digs at Heffernan just before the penalty leading to the Cardiff try.

I'm sure that Cardiff could wheel out some grievances as well because in my experience when a game is refereed poorly it's not just against one side(although it can seem that way after a loss).

Again, just want to stress that I'm not blaming the refereeing for the loss, we only have ourselves to blame at the end of the day. I really do think that with as many bad errors as this in a single game this referee has a lot to go and work on before he can be back working in the pro 12 with confidence again.

Shelflife

Yeah the ref has had better days at the office, the Carty pen was correct, when I removed my green tinged glasses you could see that he led with the shoulders and then attempted to wrap, I was more disappointed in the fact that Mul was hit with a cheap shot at the breakdown and that wasnt picked up.

Its annoying the way that every decision by the ref is picked on and discussed but the biggest error which cost us the match is hardly mentioned. O Donnell knocked the ball on when if he had just put it on the line we win the game .

Not im not saying that we should vilify Conan for the error its simply that an error, but that particular one cost us the game. But instead we harp on and on and on about the ref did this and the ref didnt do that. Refs like players are actually human too and will make mistakes, some go your way some go against you.

We need to park the refs errors in the same way we park the errors made by Conan and the rest of the players.

Bazzo

Shelflife wrote: »

Yeah the ref has had better days at the office, the Carty pen was correct, when I removed my green tinged glasses you could see that he led with the shoulders and then attempted to wrap, I was more disappointed in the fact that Mul was hit with a cheap shot at the breakdown and that wasnt picked up]

Its annoying the way that every decision by the ref is picked on and discussed but the biggest error which cost us the match is hardly mentioned. O Donnell knocked the ball on when if he had just put it on the line we win the game .

Not im not saying that we should vilify Conan for the error its simply that an error, but that particular one cost us the game. But instead we harp on and on and on about the ref did this and the ref didnt do that. Refs like players are actually human too and will make mistakes, some go your way some go against you.

We need to park the refs errors in the same way we park the errors made by Conan and the rest of the players.

Can't agree that that was the right call. When you have Davies et al on BBC calling a decision that favours a Welsh side absolutely ridiculous you know something is up.

Anyway, I think I'll say no more on the matter as it's not really something we can do anything about at the end of the day anyway so there's no point getting worked up about it.

flouncer

Bazzo wrote: »

Ah here flounce you'll have to give it a rest with the team selection or start at least backing up what you're saying. Rodney in particular had quite a good game with several solid carries and our scrum being strong throughout the game. Heffernan's darts were good and again, our scrum was solid. His performance was fine as well.

You're just saying over and over that we would have won with Delahunt and White. How? Would they have been running in tries? It doesn't make any sense. Where we lost the game was lacking a clinical edge before half time(we should have gone in 10 points up imo) and in the second half being ****ed by injury. There wasn't a damn thing anybody could have done about us having to play 40 mins with a winger as a scrum half. We lost all shape in attack and struggled to attack as effectively because of it(some individual brilliance aside).

Bazzo, I get it. My viewpoint ain't the favoured. There is a difference between stationery and doing something. If you don't agree that's OK.

Shelflife

Bazzo wrote: »

Can't agree that that was the right call. When you have Davies et al on BBC calling a decision that favours a Welsh side absolutely ridiculous you know something is up.

Anyway, I think I'll say no more on the matter as it's not really something we can do anything about at the end of the day anyway so there's no point getting worked up about it.

Thats fair enough Bazzo but using Davis as a yard stick for laws does not strengthen your arguement, most commentators havent a clue about the laws, in fact earlier in the match Davis complained that the refs called Maul too early :rolleyes:, its either a maul or its not but that fact seemed to be lost on Jiffy.

thomond2006

flouncer wrote: »

Bazzo, I get it. My viewpoint ain't the favoured. There is a difference between stationery and doing something. If you don't agree that's OK.

You say they sent a weakened team. Who would you have picked that was available? Otherwise it's just a throwaway remark.

flouncer

Look we lost the game. And while we may not be allowed to pass an opinion on a ref ( I simply don't understand why we are not allowed to be critical of a ref, we can be critical of a player but not a ref? what is that about) the game was lost for many reasons. And the primary reason was poor team selection. Yep aki had another fine game, yep toh proved how good he was, I don't care. We already know that stuff. We simply had a poor team on show and we earned that result. Its the first game this season we put a second rate team out and we got what we deserved

Bridge93

flouncer wrote: »

Look we lost the game. And while we may not be allowed to pass an opinion on a ref ( I simply don't understand why we are not allowed to be critical of a ref, we can be critical of a player but not a ref? what is that about) the game was lost for many reasons. And the primary reason was poor team selection. Yep aki had another fine game, yep toh proved how good he was, I don't care. We already know that stuff. We simply had a poor team on show and we deserved the result. Its the first game this season we put a second rate team out and we got the deserved result

If it's a second rate team I presume you can name 7/8 players who weren't playing who should have been from the 'first team'?

thomond2006

flouncer wrote: »

Look we lost the game. And while we may not be allowed to pass an opinion on a ref ( I simply don't understand why we are not allowed to be critical of a ref, we can be critical of a player but not a ref? what is that about) the game was lost for many reasons. And the primary reason was poor team selection. Yep aki had another fine game, yep toh proved how good he was, I don't care. We already know that stuff. We simply had a poor team on show and we earned that result. Its the first game this season we put a second rate team out and we got what we deserved

And yet you're unable to specify which players shouldn't have been picked? It's not a trick question.

flouncer

thomond2006 wrote: »

And yet you're unable to specify which players shouldn't have been picked? It's not a trick question.

i


I hear you thomond. I just missed your question. I said it some time before that heff is fourth choice hooker. So tom is injured, delahunt is not or jhw for that matter. Nathan wasn't injured either. So we lost Denis through injury. So Ronan steps up. But it is totally arrogant to simply replace everybody in the front row. I hope its a lesson learnt

flouncer

And do you now agree with my view?

freyners

flouncer wrote: »

i


I hear you thomond. I just missed your question. I said it some time before that heff is fourth choice hooker. So tom is injured, delahunt is not or jhw for that matter. Nathan wasn't injured either. So we lost Denis through injury. So Ronan steps up. But it is totally arrogant to simply replace everybody in the front row. I hope its a lesson learnt

Except the scrum wasnt the reason we lost and it wouldnt have been the reason we won either, a marginally better scrum wouldn't have prevented all the knock ons or the refs extremely poor calls. You repeat yourself ad nauseum without every listening or considering other peoples remarks. You're simply having a go at players you dont like

thomond2006

flouncer wrote: »

And do you now agree with my view?

So just the front row? The way you were ranting I expected you to specify at least 7/8 players! As for agreeing, I didn't see the match so I'm neither able to agree or disagree.

Hagz

The scrum wasn't an issue so I don't see the problem. It was good exposure for young O'Donnell as well.

Connacht looked the likely winners until they lost Porter and Marmion. It didn't just deny them a scrum-half but it took Healy off the wing who was having a fine game.

flouncer

freyners wrote: »

Except the scrum wasnt the reason we lost and it wouldnt have been the reason we won either, a marginally better scrum wouldn't have prevented all the knock ons or the refs extremely poor calls. You repeat yourself ad nauseum without every listening or considering other peoples remarks. You're simply having a go at players you dont like

Freyners, that is simply not true. Was the scrum weak? No it wasn't. Cripes, but I have said it in the past. This year is the first year we had a team who could hold the line under pressure. Did I say I don't like heff. Not at all I just said he is 4th choice and pats team selection was utterly and absolutely arrogant.

Note there is a difference between holding your own at a scrum and being assertive and winning scrum/breakdown. I honestly thought we were past ref calls. I thought we were better than that now. Obviously not. We still blame the ref. Some things don't change at Connacht.

Hagz

It's your opinion that Heffernan is 4th choice. It's not necessarily the opinion of Pat Lam. Heffernan has been included in 7 of the match day squads in the Pro 12 this season, whereas Delahunt has been involved in 3.

connachta

I'd say it's not just about the front row, to back Flouncer a bit. It's also picking Porter instead of Marmion. We won't know the consequence it would have been on the injury front (couldn't have been worse than losing both though). But we can say it's a 2nd choice call. Yes Porter did ok and scored a try, but his passing game is far below Marmion's, and he tend to kick as lazy solution etc. Marmion should have been rested next week, I'm puzzled about that choice

connachta

If I were cynical I'd say the positive of injuries is they could "protect" Buckley, Poolman, Heenan, Roux, Masterson and Muldowney from the Ireland selection for 6 nations. So that we can have the 6 of them for the January-April window

And yes I endorse i'd prefer having the Connacht colony for Ireland AND HCup next season starting this summer rather playing of post RWC tournament

wp_rathead

....still stuck in Bristol...
Flight cancelled, got transferred to fly from Stansted tomorrow at 19.40 - hoping it goes through
Hassle of trying find last min affordable accommodation
..would have been worth it we'd got the win..

I'll give my thoughts on the game when I get back to Galway - just gonna say didn't like the atmosphere in the Arms Park, they didn't even seem to be supporting their own team,.was more just turn up to moan. Moaned about the ref. Moaned about Connacht. Moaned about their own team. Moaned about Pro 12. Moaned about their domestic league. Only time they started being positive was at 79th minute they started a "Cardiff" chant.. Met some sound ones ofcourse but it's certainly not on my "must return" list for a rugby game..

Neil3030

wp_rathead wrote: »

....still stuck in Bristol...
Flight cancelled, got transferred to fly from Stansted tomorrow at 19.40 - hoping it goes through
Hassle of trying find last min affordable accommodation
..would have been worth it we'd got the win..

I'll give my thoughts on the game when I get back to Galway - just gonna say didn't like the atmosphere in the Arms Park, they didn't even seem to be supporting their own team,.was more just turn up to moan. Moaned about the ref. Moaned about Connacht. Moaned about their own team. Moaned about Pro 12. Moaned about their domestic league. Only time they started being positive was at 79th minute they started a "Cardiff" chant.. Met some sound ones ofcourse but it's certainly not on my "must return" list for a rugby game..

Next time, start a rousing rendition of "Stop pretending you're a country" (to the tune of "Stop the bus we want a wee-wee"). The Welsh love that.

former total

connachta wrote: »

If I were cynical I'd say the positive of injuries is they could "protect" Buckley, Poolman, Heenan, Roux, Masterson and Muldowney from the Ireland selection for 6 nations. So that we can have the 6 of them for the January-April window

You're safe enough I reckon.

connachta

former total wrote: »

You're safe enough I reckon.

Don't be ironic, I can be too, we all know how good the 3 other provinces are at the moment...

former total

connachta wrote: »

Don't be ironic, I can be too, we all know how good the 3 other provinces are at the moment...

I'm not. I expect Connacht to have a better representation in the 6N squad than last year but I'd be shocked if any of those were involved. Roux maybe, the others have no chance.

Bazzo

I think most of us here would rate Muldowney ahead of Roux at the moment. Buckley is at least as good as Kilcoyne(better IMO but green tinged glasses and all).

flouncer

Bazzo wrote: »

I think most of us here would rate Muldowney ahead of Roux at the moment. Buckley is at least as good as Kilcoyne(better IMO but green tinged glasses and all).

Yep i must have the same problem with my prescription glasses. I see us losing henshaw, toh, marmion and Buckley. Not necessarily Nathan. He has to prove himself as far as I'm concerned.

connachta

I'm not as disappointed as some of you about yesterday BP, thinking twice....

1) the statistics of the match aren't perfectly relevant, we statistically lost the Munster game
2) For exemple IMO we were dominant for line-breaks but that's all. Dominated defensively and offensively in the contact/intensity, and was pretty tight game for scrums, lineouts (not contested but not straight) and breakdowns
3) finishing the game with 4 U-21 and 3 injured players on the pitch
4) playing a whole half without a scrummie
5) ref was poor for both side
6) defensive maul still a nightmare
7) Muldoon and Muldowney obviously tired after Munster match

So yes a draw was possible and maybe deserved, but all in all a BP I would have taken from the start, for a team which showed character. Could have been worse too around the 55th min when Patchell made it 20-13. The team didn't collapsed and the confidence isn't hindered too much. My opinion.


And we had fun about it but this time it's true :
Nearly all our best 23 was out of this game :

1) Buck
2) McCartney
3) White
4) Dillane
5) Browne
6) Heenan
7) Nepia
8 ) Masterson
9) Marmion (I include him despite the 2 min he played)
10) McGinty
11) Niyi
12) McSharry
13) Api
14) Poolman
15) Henshaw

16) Delahunt
17) JP
18) ?
19) Marshall
20) ?
21) Cooney
22) Ronaldson (I include him despite the 10 min he played)
23) Carr

So, the fact that the rest of our squad was able to earn smth from a decent and hungry Cardiff team is a valuable performance per se...

connachta

flouncer wrote: »

Y I see us losing marmion and Buckley.

Big moment for Coalin Blade. Cooney out for 3 months, Marmion and Porter injured, then Marmion probably selected for 6 nations as Reddan/Boss ageing fast.

He has been Carolan's favourite for 2 years now, I'm confident he can step up easily.