Connacht Rugby Thread - Part III - The Violence of the Lams

its_phil

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

OK, I'll rephrase it. Where do you think the majority of the budget comes from?

There are two different budgets here. The IRFU central contract budget and Connacht playing budget.

Robbie was on €120k and Connacht, to pluck a number from the sky for arguments sake, have an annual rough budget of €5m euro. Where that money comes from is irrelevant.

So €120k is gone on his salary, leaving Connacht with a budget of €4.88m. That is how it worked this season on his provincial contract.

If Henshaw was on a central contract at Connacht next season, this €120k disappears off the books of Connacht and his contract is payed for by the IRFU. Essentially an Ireland player on loan to Connacht for no fee or salary. We can also add an additional player, while keeping an international.

Henshaw leaving now means Connacht have to replace a squad member and pay for it out of their own budget, while Leinster get a player on loan from the IRFU for no fee or player with no detriment to their budget.

I am not taking talk of top-ups or additional fees into consideration which is Leinsters own choice.

Bazzo

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Don't forget Fionn Carr or for that matter AJ McGinty

But I didn't even bring up the lads who were born in Athlone like Jack Carty, Danny Qualter and of course Robbie Henshaw or Laois like Eoghan Masterson. It does go deeper than you think, it's insidious really

I'm pretty sure Jack Carty is from the Roscommon side of Athlone, or at least he used to play GAA with St. Brigids :P

Edit: I'm 99% sure you're taking the piss by the way, or at least very hopeful you are.

Billysays no

b.gud wrote: »

If you can point me to where he said this I will drive anywhere in the country today and personally hand you €1,000

very good :-). he said so by leaving b.gud.

CMOTDibbler

sfbdqc wrote: »

He was, MCGrath was playing ahead of him.. although Cooney was just returning from injury.

His last full season at Leinster he had three starts, McGrath had none. He also had a sub appearance in the HEC, McGrath only had subs in the Pro12.

As both were behind Reddan and Boss, it was generally starts during the international windows. On that basis, Cooney was ahead.

b.gud

Billysays no wrote: »

very good :-). he said so by leaving b.gud.

CMOTDibbler

its_phil wrote: »

If Henshaw was on a central contract at Connacht next season, this €120k disappears off the books of Connacht and his contract is payed for by the IRFU. Essentially an Ireland player on loan to Connacht for no fee or salary. We can also add an additional player, while keeping an international.

Look, I understand the mechanics of what happens with a centrally contracted player's salary. What I'm saying is that since the IRFU are subsidising all provinces, it's very easy for Connacht to make a case along the lines you've given for an increased subsidy. Pat Lam does not seem at all concerned about what the IRFU have done or didn't do, so I suspect that Connacht will not be left out of pocket for whatever cost it takes to replace Henshaw.

What people don't seem to have realised is that Leinster are also losing Ben Te'o and I would imagine that he would be on a fairly sizeable salary. So Leinster are saving Ben Te'o's salary as well as Robbie Henshaw's.






Ducks and runs for cover.

connemara man

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Look, I understand the mechanics of what happens with a centrally contracted player's salary. What I'm saying is that since the IRFU are subsidising all provinces, it's very easy for Connacht to make a case along the lines you've given for an increased subsidy. Pat Lam does not seem at all concerned about what the IRFU have done or didn't do, so I suspect that Connacht will not be left out of pocket for whatever cost it takes to replace Henshaw.

What people don't seem to have realised is that Leinster are also losing Ben Te'o and I would imagine that he would be on a fairly sizeable salary. So Leinster are saving Ben Te'o's salary as well as Robbie Henshaw's.






Ducks and runs for cover.

And Madigans

CMOTDibbler

connemara man wrote: »

And Madigans

Not directly related though.

Robbie is pretty much directly replacing Ben Te'o. Although he won't be available during international windows.

its_phil

its_phil wrote: »

There are two different budgets here. The IRFU central contract budget and Connacht playing budget.

Robbie was on €120k and Connacht, to pluck a number from the sky for arguments sake, have an annual rough budget of €5m euro. Where that money comes from is irrelevant.

So €120k is gone on his salary, leaving Connacht with a budget of €4.88m. That is how it worked this season on his provincial contract.

If Henshaw was on a central contract at Connacht next season, this €120k disappears off the books of Connacht and his contract is payed for by the IRFU. Essentially an Ireland player on loan to Connacht for no fee or salary. We can also add an additional player, while keeping an international.

Henshaw leaving now means Connacht have to replace a squad member and pay for it out of their own budget, while Leinster get a player on loan from the IRFU for no fee or player with no detriment to their budget.

I am not taking talk of top-ups or additional fees into consideration which is Leinsters own choice.

I believe provinces are on the hook for the first €100k of a central contract.

S12b

Deleted User wrote: »

I believe provinces are on the hook for the first €100k of a central contract.

Pretty sure you're correct, Gerry Thornley mentioned this on Off The Ball a few weeks back. One interesting thing to come from the Henshaw move is Connacht's budget has been increased by the IRFU.....more money specifically for the marketing budget.

MarinersBlues

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

But really, I was just pointing out to Connachta that there is a good relationship between Leinster and Connacht that sees players going in both directions.

This left me with my head in my hands - not sure whether I was laughing or crying.

RobbieRuns

MarinersBlues wrote: »

This left me with my head in my hands - not sure whether I was laughing or crying.

Laughing really.

Great relationship yeah, you get the stars and top players when you want them and we get the ones that you don't want or have no room for...... That relationship.

Shelflife

b.gud wrote: »

No. We don't own Robbie, this is professional sport not a slave trade.

I was working in a hotel bar before, when I started there I had no bar experience I learned everything there. After a couple of years I was quite an important member of staff as there were a lot of part timers and people who would only work there for a couple of months before leaving. I had grown quite comfortable in the job and decided I wanted to go elsewhere. When I told my manager she did everything she could to try to convince me to stay with the hotel, including ay rises or offering me the chance to work in different departments. After considering the options I decided that I wanted move on anyway because I wanted a change of scenery and a job that was closer to home for me. Does that mean I ****ed the hotel? No In any work environment there needs to be freedom of movement for a worker who feels like they need to move into a new role for whatever reason, and for Robbie it certainly sounds like it wasn't all rugby reasons

It's absolutely no different with professional rugby players

This is a reasonable analogy, but to make one or two points on it. If the Bar you started in spotted that you had a talent and worked hard with you to bring it on, gave you opportunities that you would never had opened to you in the same way at other bars would you feel any sort of loyalty to it ?

If you knew that this new bar would never have given you the opportunities to enhance your raw talent , would that make you think twice?

If your current bar told you that they had plans to be as good as the new bar and that you were central to these plans ,would you feel that you owed them a chance to develop in the same way that they gave you the chance to develop ?

Ill give you a slightly different analogy.

Many years ago I wanted to sell newspapers which were only sold into certain shops, the supplier at the time wouldnt supply me. Another supplier let me buy newspapers off him and even gave me a cut on them. He also supplied me with another product that was freely available.

Basically he gave me a break when I really needed it. 20 years later I still buy his product off him even though I could get a similar product elsewhere and make more money on it . Why ? because I feel that I am repaying the debt or supporting those that supported me when I needed it.

Personally I believe that Robbie owed Connacht some loyalty, I feel that his head was turned by the guys in Leinster and that the likes of BOD had only Leinster in their thought when they "advised" him that it would be in his interest.

He felt he owed us nothing and thats what we got.

Bazzo

MarinersBlues wrote: »

This left me with my head in my hands - not sure whether I was laughing or crying.

It's probably hard for a Leinster fan to understand because they've never been on the other side of the coin, and it's not like it's their fault that the more talented players are leaving to join them.

Players go both ways but not in a balanced manner, let's say for instance we did a few straight swaps between our bench/fringe options and their starters, would Leinster fans be happy with a two-way street if they got:

AJ MacGinty <

---

> Jonny Sexton
George Naoupu <

---

> Jamie Heaslip
Ronan Lougney <

---

> Cian Healy
Darragh Leader <

---

> Rob Kearney
?

Of course not, but if the players left of their own free will you couldn't blame Connacht for that. So nobody is blaming Leinster for the manner in which this back and forth goes, but it doesn't mean it's not annoying as **** for Connacht fans.

Zzippy

Bazzo wrote: »

It's probably hard for a Leinster fan to understand because they've never been on the other side of the coin, and it's not like it's their fault that the more talented players are leaving to join them.

Players go both ways but not in a balanced manner, let's say for instance we did a few straight swaps between our bench/fringe options and their starters, would Leinster fans be happy with a two-way street if they got:

AJ MacGinty <

---

> Jonny Sexton
George Naoupu <

---

> Jamie Heaslip
Ronan Lougney <

---

> Cian Healy
Darragh Leader <

---

> Rob Kearney
?

Of course not, but if the players left of their own free will you couldn't blame Connacht for that. So nobody is blaming Leinster for the manner in which this back and forth goes, but it doesn't mean it's not annoying as **** for Connacht fans.

Nailed it. If the shoe were on the other foot like that, I'd be ashamed to be pointing out to Leinster fans about the talent we were generously sending them...

MarinersBlues

Bazzo wrote: »

It's probably hard for a Leinster fan to understand because they've never been on the other side of the coin, and it's not like it's their fault that the more talented players are leaving to join them.

Players go both ways but not in a balanced manner, let's say for instance we did a few straight swaps between our bench/fringe options and their starters, would Leinster fans be happy with a two-way street if they got:

AJ MacGinty <

---

> Jonny Sexton
George Naoupu <

---

> Jamie Heaslip
Ronan Lougney <

---

> Cian Healy
Darragh Leader <

---

> Rob Kearney
?

Of course not, but if the players left of their own free will you couldn't blame Connacht for that. So nobody is blaming Leinster for the manner in which this back and forth goes, but it doesn't mean it's not annoying as **** for Connacht fans.

And then add in that Healy and Kearney will be second or third choice for us because we already have a better player here, but he is on international duty some of the time.

its_phil

Deleted User wrote: »

I believe provinces are on the hook for the first €100k of a central contract.

Really? Interesting.

CMOTDibbler

MarinersBlues wrote: »

This left me with my head in my hands - not sure whether I was laughing or crying.

RobbieRuns wrote: »

Laughing really.

Great relationship yeah, you get the stars and top players when you want them and we get the ones that you don't want or have no room for...... That relationship.

Zzippy wrote: »

Nailed it. If the shoe were on the other foot like that, I'd be ashamed to be pointing out to Leinster fans about the talent we were generously sending them...

MarinersBlues wrote: »

And then add in that Healy and Kearney will be second or third choice for us because we already have a better player here, but he is on international duty some of the time.

Ah lads stop! You're breaking my heart :pac:

Leinster players leave Leinster too. Just not all of them to Connacht

Marty Moore has just gone, Jonny Sexton left (if you're looking for sticks to beat the IRFU over...) and Felix Jones was poached by Munster much to the annoyance of Michael Cheika.

The point here is that this was not a poach. It was a straight up players choice and I have not seen anything anywhere to suggest that Leinster pursued Henshaw (If there is, please point me to it). You may complain that you're getting the dregs from Leinster, well if that's the case please send them back if you don't want them. :rolleyes:

its_phil

S12b wrote: »

One interesting thing to come from the Henshaw move is Connacht's budget has been increased by the IRFU.....more money specifically for the marketing budget.

Did you hear that or was it said in media?

evil_seed

People, people, people. I figured we'd be over this after Macca moving but I guess the chip is hard to move from the shoulder.
Players leave and move on. We should move on too. If the player made the decision, and this is what it was said all through the process that it was "Robbie's choice" then we should stop moaning, looking to blame someone and just move the f*ck on. Get behind the team and players on the field. We're more than one player

S12b

its_phil wrote: »

Did you hear that or was it said in media?

Heard it from someone who would know

CMOTDibbler

S12b wrote: »

Heard it from someone who would know

Well coincidentally Connacht are currently hiring a Head of Commercial and Marketing.

I have to say that the Connacht website is a disaster. It's like somebody got all the cool web toys and threw them at the wall. It's the most unintuitive interface I've ever seen and the information is sparse at best.

wp_rathead

Anyhow, looks like Aki and Muldowney are suffering from chest infections so looks like they are out
Could go MacGinty - Ronaldson - Parata or Ronaldson - Robb -Parata?
Could we see Api involved?

Dillane and George in second row with Marshall on bench seems most likely if Muldowney out

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Well coincidentally Connacht are currently hiring a Head of Commercial and Marketing.

I have to say that the Connacht website is a disaster. It's like somebody got all the cool web toys and threw them at the wall. It's the most unintuitive interface I've ever seen and the information is sparse at best.

It won't open for me on chrome on my laptop - have to use Internet Explorer or mobile if want to read anything - it's some pain

irishbucsfan

Zzippy wrote: »

It's not really an impressive list. Not one of them was first choice or in most cases remotely near it for Leinster. But we're supposed to be grateful and let ye cherrypick our first teamers, right? :rolleyes:

Matt Healy was involved with Leinster a bit. Never full time but certainly with Leinster A

Bazzo

wp_rathead wrote: »

Anyhow, looks like Aki and Muldowney are suffering from chest infections so looks like they are out
Could go MacGinty - Ronaldson - Parata or Ronaldson - Robb -Parata?
Could we see Api involved?

Dillane and George in second row with Marshall on bench seems most likely if Muldowney out



It won't open for me on chrome on my laptop - have to use Internet Explorer or mobile if want to read anything - it's some pain

Actually they are both probably due a week off anyway and if it had to happen this would be the game for it.

Not too pushed about what combination but if I had to guess at what it'll be I'd go with: MacGinty - Ronaldson - Parata

I think Pat is firmly of the opinion that Ronaldson is a centre first and foremost, and seeing as he gets to pick where he plays he's right too :P

WarZ

I think its an incredibly positive move for Henshaw and I am delighted about it.

I wonder if Connacht would consider taking a punt on someone like Tom Daly?

ClanofLams

My final thoughts on Henshaw. There is misplaced anger towards Leinster - as I said earlier they should and will act in their own interest.

If people want to be angry, it should be at Henshaw. People claiming leinster lads tapped him up, who cares, he makes his own decisions at the end of the day.

As a hypothetical, were Munster to miss out on top 6 and struggle next season too and Peter o'mahony agreed to join leinster, does anyone think the limerick faithful would be saying thanks for everything Pete, all the best, as I have seen elsewhere said to Henshaw.

Connacht were treated as an inferior province in the past and that mindset seems to have seeped into some supporters heads as if it was inevitable and acceptable that Henshaw would move on.

I will support him as I would anyone in the Connacht jersey for the rest of the season. After that it's irrelevant how he does at Leinster, to steal a line I saw on the Connacht Clan, I wish him neither bad luck nor good.

CatFromHue

its_phil wrote: »

Really? Interesting.

It was either last week's or the week before's Wednesday Night rugby on Off the Ball where Gerry Thornley gave a break down on some of the changes in finances in the province v IRFU relationship.

I can't remember what the deal with central contracts are though.

Newstalk have a listen back feature if you so wish to listen back

Robbo

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Well coincidentally Connacht are currently hiring a Head of Commercial and Marketing.

I have to say that the Connacht website is a disaster. It's like somebody got all the cool web toys and threw them at the wall. It's the most unintuitive interface I've ever seen and the information is sparse at best.

That's to replace Alex Saul, who's moving on.

And yes, the website is wretched.

lostboy75

evil_seed wrote: »

We should move on too.

To be fair. I think most connacht supports are moving on, it's just a bit raw still for some. Being told by other province fans that's it's a two way street is not helping, it's just aggravating matters.
I am settling my thoughts in the matter, not fully there, but almost.
So good luck to Robbie, regardless to how many games he played for us this season, he will be missed

its_phil

lostboy75 wrote: »

Being told by other province fans that's it's a two way street is not helping, it's just aggravating matters.

TBF I've seen few and far between intelligent posters say this. Most posters including Leinsters appreciate that overall it would have been better for Irish rugby he stayed out west.

wp_rathead

its_phil wrote: »

TBF I've seen few and far between intelligent posters say this. Most posters including Leinsters appreciate that overall it would have been better for Irish rugby he stayed out west.

Yup most Connacht fans are getting over it and most fans of other teams can empathise with how we're feeling
Personally I still think Robbie missed a trick by leaving - he would have been the face of Connacht Rugby with the whole "brand" built around him - could have been very lucrative for him
Leinster are very lucky to have him for next 3 years

But enough of that, roll on Zebre

MarinersBlues

lostboy75 wrote: »

Being told by other province fans that's it's a two way street is not helping, it's just aggravating matters.

Absolutely.

I hadn't posted anything regarding Henshaw or his decision until I read that sort of rubbish further up the thread.
Henshaw won't break us but he could have made us.
There is plenty of talent coming through. We have kept players we would have expected to lose before (Marmion for example) so it is still a case of slowly building up the Branch, and retaining the players we have.

Onwards and upwards

former total

its_phil wrote: »

TBF I've seen few and far between intelligent posters say this. Most posters including Leinsters appreciate that overall it would have been better for Irish rugby he stayed out west.

I think it's fairly neutral for Irish rugby tbh, especially now that it looks 99% certain that Connacht will be in Europe next year. This idea of Henshaw benefitting by playing with Sexton more regularly is nonsense, so I don't think his move is better for Ireland, equally though I'm not sure how him staying west would have been better. (Maybe I'm not an intelligent poster though...)

I think keeping key players happy is a good thing for Ireland though, and that's essentially what this came down to.

lostboy75

MarinersBlues wrote: »

There is plenty of talent coming through.

Fully agree, this has not dented my excitement for our future.

WarZ

lostboy75 wrote: »

Fully agree, this has not dented my excitement for our future.

Good news for Leinster so

I jest.

Zzippy

Any source for Aki and Muldowney being out? If they are I'd go with this team (not sure if all are fit):

Buckley, McCartney, Bealham
Dillane, Browne/Naoupu/Marshall
Muldoon, Heenan, Masterson
Marmion, Ronaldson
Robb, Parata
Healy, TOH, Poolman

JHW, Ah You, Loughney, Browne/Naoupu/Marshall, McKeon, Blade, AJ, Carr

ClanofLams

Zzippy wrote: »

Any source for Aki and Muldowney being out?

Linley Mackenzie reports both have chest infections in the Advertiser, don't think she ruled them out definitively though.

its_phil

former total wrote: »

This idea of Henshaw benefitting by playing with Sexton more regularly is nonsense, so I don't think his move is better for Ireland, equally though I'm not sure how him staying west would have been better. (Maybe I'm not an intelligent poster though...)

More the long-term benefits of seeing a local international and potential Lion staying at the traditionally viewed ugly cousin of Irish rugby. The impact on the game in the future out west and even just saying to other players out of contract that I'm staying and so should you.

Intangible benefits really.

Zzippy

its_phil wrote: »

More the long-term benefits of seeing a local international and potential Lion staying at the traditionally viewed ugly cousin of Irish rugby. The impact on the game in the future out west and even just saying to other players out of contract that I'm staying and so should you.

Intangible benefits really.

Better coaching too

its_phil

Zzippy wrote: »

Any source for Aki and Muldowney being out? If they are I'd go with this team (not sure if all are fit):

Buckley, McCartney, Bealham
Dillane, Browne/Naoupu/Marshall
Muldoon, Heenan, Masterson
Marmion, Ronaldson
Robb, Parata
Healy, TOH, Poolman

JHW, Ah You, Loughney, Browne/Naoupu/Marshall, McKeon, Blade, AJ, Carr

Jeez I reckon that one would be a contender for youngest XV of the year and we've played some amount of kids.

CMOTDibbler

lostboy75 wrote: »

To be fair. I think most connacht supports are moving on, it's just a bit raw still for some. Being told by other province fans that's it's a two way street is not helping, it's just aggravating matters.

its_phil wrote: »

TBF I've seen few and far between intelligent posters say this. Most posters including Leinsters appreciate that overall it would have been better for Irish rugby he stayed out west.

Not saying you guys don't have the monopoly on intelligent posts, but it's worth considering where this whole train of discussion started:

connachta wrote: »

Leinster would still be a better team because players like Henshaw McCarthy and Cronin are still going away from Connacht. That's scornful conservatism inherited from the developement province strategy. THIS HAS TO BE OVER

Robbo

ClanofLams wrote: »

Linley Mackenzie reports both have chest infections in the Advertiser, don't think she ruled them out definitively though.

A little bit of this course of treatment and Bundee will be ready to go...

Zzippy wrote: »

Any source for Aki and Muldowney being out? If they are I'd go with this team (not sure if all are fit):

Buckley, McCartney, Bealham
Dillane, Browne/Naoupu/Marshall
Muldoon, Heenan, Masterson
Marmion, Ronaldson
Robb, Parata
Healy, TOH, Poolman

JHW, Ah You, Loughney, Browne/Naoupu/Marshall, McKeon, Blade, AJ, Carr

I'd love to see the Robb/Parata centre combo given an airing.

its_phil

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Not saying you guys don't have the monopoly on intelligent posts, but it's worth considering where this whole train of discussion started:

Ah here, you can go to any thread and pinpoint one mad theory but in all seriousness what is the point of cherry picking the two or three mad ones out of it when the majority are reasonable posts.

I know the opinions on this thread that I personally respect and then there are those opinions that have conspiracy theories about IRFU, refs and Leinster.

CMOTDibbler

its_phil wrote: »

Ah here, you can go to any thread and pinpoint one mad theory but in all seriousness what is the point of cherry picking the two or three mad ones out of it when the majority are reasonable posts.

You won't find me arguing with that.

What you will find if you go back to that post is that's what I replied to. Mostly tongue in cheek, but partially in annoyance as well.

Bazzo

There seem to be a lot of contract announcements coming out of the other provinces, should we be expecting to hear soon on our own? I know Muldowney and Heenan are out of contract at the end of this season, anyone else?

connachta

former total wrote: »

Exactly. Leinster are not cherry-picking players; the players are cherry-picking Leinster (and Munster, although Connacht fans don't seem too gutted about Keatley anymore...).

These guys leave to play in a better team and to win medals. If Connacht maintain the upward curve of this season, then that's the best way to retain key players.

but win medals and maintain the upward curve IMPLIES retainig key players. This logic is just putting Connacht into a deadlock

irishgrover

connachta wrote: »

but win medals and maintain the upward curve IMPLIES retainig key players. This logic is just putting Connacht into a deadlock

in all honestly, and realistically, it's always going to be harder for smaller teams to stop players gravitating to larger teams, in any sport.
We have lost one player, he is 22 and kind of has the world at his feet, all he has ever known is Connacht, specifically Athlone and Galway. It's disappointing but not surprising, even on a human level alone, that he wants to try something different. He's only be 25 when the 3 years are up, still plenty of time to make more choices.
Henshaws departure is not, I believe, indicative of a wave of departures. We are in an far better position this year than 12 or 24 months ago, and infinitely better than a few years ago, and I think this has and will encourage player to stay and to join in the future
One 22 year old leaving to see newer or greener pastures done not spell the beginning of the end.
Lets look at it another way, and of course it's pure conjecture, but I suspect of Connacht were on a par with Leinster (lets pretend that we just won or 3rd HC ), I suspect Henshaw may still have gone....

Robbo

The Advertiser reminded me today that if we score a try bonus against Zebre, that'll be 4 matches in a row where we've done that.

Number 137

Whatever about the Henshaw saga, I think Connacht are on an upward curve. If they can qualify for Europe next year, or even better, secure a top 4 finish, suddenly the become a far more attractive destination for potential recruits. Yes Henshaw is gone, but there is reason to think that there might be some decent recruits to come down the line, budget allowing.