Real Madrid vs Barcelona, El Clasico, k/o 17:15 Sky Sports 2, SS1 RED button, Sky One

Turtwig

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

When was the last time Barcelona had 10 Spanish/La Masia players in their starting 11?

When Titi Villanova managed them there was a game where all 11 players were la masia. Think 9 were starters. That's in the last five years. Few European clubs, particularly top level, could boast that.

Not only that when you consider how many of their la mafia products are regulars starters in other clubs in top tier football that's a bloody impressive development system.

NIMAN

Turtwig wrote: »

When Titi Villanova managed them there was a game where all 11 players were la masia. Think 9 were starters. That's in the last five years. Few European clubs, particularly top level, could boast that.

Not only that when you consider how many of their la mafia products are regulars starters in other clubs in top tier football that's a bloody impressive development system.

So that's how they won so much !! Gangsters.:D

I remember hearing a stat many moons ago that nearly 50% of the players playing in La Liga had been trialled at Real Madrid at some stage. Sounds high, but I am sure a lot of players go through it who never make the grade at the top clubs.

deaddonkey15

Turtwig wrote: »

When Titi Villanova managed them there was a game where all 11 players were la masia. Think 9 were starters. That's in the last five years. Few European clubs, particularly top level, could boast that.

Not only that when you consider how many of their la mafia products are regulars starters in other clubs in top tier football that's a bloody impressive development system.

2012, after Dani Alves went off injured. The other poster said it was not rare to see 10/11 La Masia players in the first team, so surely there must be many more examples in recent years? Whilst I agree that it's impressive that they fielded entirely La Masia XI that day, 3 of those players had to be bought back to the club.

Turtwig

NIMAN wrote: »

So that's how they won so much !! Gangsters.:D

Certainly explains the tax fraud and other investigations.:)

dfx-

SlickRic wrote: »

...What Barcelona had, simply, was Neymar and Suarez

Iniesta was better than either. And they had Sergi Roberto. And Rakitic. And Bravo in goal.

Sure it wasn't the 5-0, but that game is exactly why Madrid need Benitez. That was a game to shut up shop and rebuild, especially at 0-2. But Madrid went kamikaze in true Madrid style, playing 5-0-5, kicking anything that moved. It is clear to see why Benitez has been 'conservative' in recent games holding onto leads, you wouldn't trust that set of players to defend if their lives depended on it.

Barcelona were disciplined and they were a team, to reduce them to Neymar and Suarez misses a hell of a lot. It can't be a tactical masterclass every time, but there can be a gulf in professionalism.

MisterAnarchy

SlickRic wrote: »

What Barcelona had, simply, was Neymar and Suarez.

There was no tactical masterclass. It wasn't even a brilliant team performance if we're honest - certainly nothing on the level of Barca's famous wins of the past few years.

Barcelona had alot more than just Neymar and Suarez today ,the whole team was brilliant ,it's as good a team display as I've seen this season.
They oozed class in all areas of the pitch .

Bravo, was outstanding, securing his fifth consecutive clean sheet by making seven saves.
Iniesta and Busquets ran midfield and Rakitic delivered another admirable all-around performance.

Up front Suarez and Neymar were simply unstoppable.
Suarez now has three goals in his first three Clasico appearances, he is a joy to watch ,such a cool finisher.
Neymar is a much better footballer now than this time last year .

I was surprised that Benitez didn't play a holding midfielder today though,the three man midfield he went with was far too lightweight and they were completely overrun .
Kroos in particular was anonymous ,he really is poor when out of possession.He seems to have no fight in him .
Himself and Rodriguez cant play in a 3 man midfield ,they'd struggle to tackle their dinners .

Madrid had just one shot at goal in the entire first 45 minutes and could have been 3 or 4 down at half time such was the ease that Barcelona opened them up.

Bohrio

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

2012, after Dani Alves went off injured. The other poster said it was not rare to see 10/11 La Masia players in the first team, so surely there must be many more examples in recent years? Whilst I agree that it's impressive that they fielded entirely La Masia XI that day, 3 of those players had to be bought back to the club.

I did say lately it was more like 6-7 didnt I?

The last time barcelona put 11 la masia players in their initiall 11 was in 2012. Since then things have changed, for instance, they dont have a Spanish Goalkeeper anymore and the 2 front strikers are way too efficient at the moment not to be part of the initial squad so getting 11 again will be pretty much impossible.

Said that averaging 5-7 national or La masia players per game is not bad considering they lost many key players such as Cesc, Pedro, Thiago etc. And much better than Real with 0 Cantera players, thats 0, the only national players that seem to be there are Ramos and sometimes Isco and none of them are Cantera players.

deaddonkey15

Bohrio wrote: »

I did say lately it was more like 6-7 didnt I?

The last time barcelona put 11 la masia players in their initiall 11 was in 2012. Since then things have changed, for instance, they dont have a Spanish Goalkeeper anymore and the 2 front strikers are way too efficient at the moment not to be part of the initial squad so getting 11 again will be pretty much impossible.

Said that averaging 5-7 national or La masia players per game is not bad considering they lost many key players such as Cesc, Pedro, Thiago etc. And much better than Real with 0 Cantera players, thats 0, the only national players that seem to be there are Ramos and sometimes Isco and none of them are Cantera players.

But you said it is not rare to see 10/11 national/La Masia players in their team, even though the last time that happened was 3 years a go. I want to know on what other occasions this has happened to turn what seems to be an extremely rare event into one that is "not rare".

Bohrio

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

But you said it is not rare to see 10/11 national/La Masia players in their team, even though the last time that happened was 3 years a go. I want to know on what other occasions this has happened to turn what seems to be an extremely rare event into one that is "not rare".

I did say after that this hasnt happened lately... I think you hear what you want to hear... but if you want to be picky I said 10-11 national/masia players in their team, well if you count the full team including the bench then that is correct. I didnt specify it had to be on the pitch.

You seem to be forgetting that was in comparison to Real which has had 0 since Casillas was kicked, 0 players

Anyway the last year I believe Barcelona played several times with 8-9 players national/masia in their INITIAL team. But thats one less than 10 so you probably wont be happy with that either.

I agree the numbers have gone down from getting 11 to 6-7 but still good all things considering.

deaddonkey15

Bohrio wrote: »

I did say after that this hasnt happened lately... I think you hear what you want to hear... but if you want to be picky I said 10-11 national/masia players in their team, well if you count the full team including the bench then that is correct. I didnt specify it had to be on the pitch.

You seem to be forgetting that was in comparison to Real which has had 0 since Casillas was kicked, 0 players

Anyway the last year I believe Barcelona played several times with 8-9 players national/masia in their INITIAL team. But thats one less than 10 so you probably wont be happy with that either.

I agree the numbers have gone down from getting 11 to 6-7 but still good all things considering.

What matches did they play with 8 or 9 La Masia/national players in their starting 11?

Andersonisgod

Just to make a point on this, the club's devotion to youth is always changing, under this current board it is not as high a priority as it was under Laporta's leadership where tackled Madrid's Galacticos with kids from the B team and the coach from the B team. We've seen Barcelona sell a lot of their top young prospects recently like Delofeu and Adama Traore and also loan out other top prospects like Halilovic and Denis Suarez. All of these players can be brought back if they thrive (the former 2 have buy back clauses in their contracts) but chances are under Laporta at least one of these players and Samper would be in the first team squad.

All of that being said, the club have managed to establish Sergi Roberto in the side, a player once linked with Stoke was one of the outstanding players in the Clasico last night. This season also would have been Rafinha Alcantara's breakthrough campaign but injury put a stop to that, however his time will come. Munir and Sandro have seen a lot of game time this season too. So when you look at it relatively, though it's not as great as it was under Laporta, the club's devotion to its Masia remains strong.

Caovyn Lineah

What exactly constitutes a Masia product? Surely Halilovic and Suarez dont qualify.

Andersonisgod

Caovyn Lineah wrote: »

What exactly constitutes a Masia product? Surely Halilovic and Suarez dont qualify.

Am I going to count them? Your damn right I am, both have played with Barcelona B over 30 times so that's good enough for me. Obviously some may not feel that way.

Caovyn Lineah

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Am I going to count them? Your damn right I am, both have played with Barcelona B over 30 times so that's good enough for me. Obviously some may not feel that way.

Halilovic was a champions league player before signing for Barca, ridiculous to include him.
Suarez was a product of Celta and City to a lesser extent.

Bohrio

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

What matches did they play with 8 or 9 La Masia/national players in their starting 11?

Glad you've asked

I have seen this on several Spanish cup games

Less than a month ago on the 28th of October, against Villanovense 0-0 they started with 8 players.

Previous to that, last one I can remember was another Spanish Cup game against Elche 0-4 (thats was in 2015 as well) where they started with 8 and a month before against Huesca 8-1 where they started with 9.

Caovyn Lineah wrote: »

What exactly constitutes a Masia product? Surely Halilovic and Suarez dont qualify.

Any player who have played in La Masia for certain period of time. Even as little as 1 year.

There are many many players who are brought from abroad to La masia and never take off, or at least, never make it to the first team and are sold elsewhere. We just only know off the ones that make it.

Andersonisgod

Caovyn Lineah wrote: »

Halilovic was a champions league player before signing for Barca, ridiculous to include him.
Suarez was a product of Celta and City to a lesser extent.

Without meaning to be harsh I'm not all that bothered. If I'm throwing around La Masia figures in the future then yes I will probably include Halilovic (and I do expect him to be part of the Barcelona first team in the near future, he's excellent), afterall whose going to stop me?

Caovyn Lineah

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Without meaning to be harsh I'm not all that bothered. If I'm throwing around La Masia figures in the future then yes I will probably include Halilovic (and I do expect him to be part of the Barcelona first team in the near future, he's excellent), afterall whose going to stop me?

Common sense maybe?

Andersonisgod

Caovyn Lineah wrote: »

Common sense maybe?

If you are the voice of my common sense then I must be a truly erratic person.

deaddonkey15

Bohrio wrote: »

Glad you've asked

I have seen this on several Spanish cup games

Less than a month ago on the 28th of October, against Villanovense 0-0 they started with 8 players.

Previous to that, last one I can remember was another Spanish Cup game against Elche 0-4 (thats was in 2015 as well) where they started with 8 and a month before against Huesca 8-1 where they started with 9.



Any player who have played in La Masia for certain period of time. Even as little as 1 year.

There are many many players who are brought from abroad to La masia and never take off, or at least, never make it to the first team and are sold elsewhere. We just only know off the ones that make it.

Thanks for that. It's just that you lied about it not being rare for Barcelona to have 10/11 La Masia or national players in their team, I just wanted to make sure you weren't lying again. I don't like when people tell porkies.

deaddonkey15

Andersonisgod wrote: »

If you are the voice of my common sense then I must be a truly erratic person.

You are.

Andersonisgod

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

You are.

I'm the most balanced, even-keeled person I know.

Bohrio

fyp

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Thanks for that. It's just that you lied about it not being rare for Barcelona to have 10/11 La Masia or national players in their team although this hasnt happened lately, I just wanted to make sure you weren't lying again. I don't like when people tell porkies.

Your welcome.

I know what you mean, I dont like people who puts words on other peoples mouths, read what they want to read and can't admit it when they are wrong... so the instantly accuse the other one of lying instead of admitting they are just mistaken

Oh and before you say anything and just fyi

Definition of lately
lately (ˈleɪtlɪ)
adv
1. in recent times; of late

So if we consider barcelona fc has over 100 years of history, 3 years sounds like lately to me?

deaddonkey15

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Am I going to count them? Your damn right I am, both have played with Barcelona B over 30 times so that's good enough for me. Obviously some may not feel that way.

By that logic Victor Valdes is a product of the United youth system, having played for the U-21s. Great to see United produce such a fine goalkeeper. Falcao another one brought through the United ranks having lined out for the U-21s.

Andersonisgod

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

By that logic Victor Valdes is a product of the United youth system, having played for the U-21s. Great to see United produce such a fine goalkeeper. Falcao another one brought through the United ranks having lined out for the U-21s.

That's taking things without context, difference in age, stages of the examples careers, expectations when signed ect. into account. That is the thought process of a truly erratic person.

StringerBell

Bohrio wrote: »

Your welcome.

I know what you mean, I dont like people who puts words on other peoples mouths, read what they want to read and can't admit it when they are wrong... so the instantly accuse the other one of lying instead of admitting they are just mistaken

So when you said it's not rare to see 10/11 in the starting line up was that a lie or a mistake?



Ah I kid, people exaggerate all the time, your general point was understood.

Calling the likes of Suarez/Halilovic etc La Masia products is a funny one though (don't think that was you was it?) It's an absolute piss take in fact.

deaddonkey15

Bohrio wrote: »

fyp




Your welcome.

I know what you mean, I dont like people who puts words on other peoples mouths, read what they want to read and can't admit it when they are wrong... so the instantly accuse the other one of lying instead of admitting they are just mistaken

Oh and before you say anything and just fyi

Definition of lately
lately (ˈleɪtlɪ)
adv
1. in recent times; of late

So you don't like when people put words in other people's mouths, but you quote my post and edit it to include your own part, as if I had said it?

What have I got wrong exactly? Did you or did you not write this exact sentence:

"It not rare to see 9 or 10 national or la masia players in their team, although lately it is more like 6-7."


fyi

rare1
rɛː/Submit
adjective
(of an event, situation, or condition) not occurring very often.

I think it is you who can't admit they are wrong based on the definition of rare above, and the fact that there is only 1 cited example here of Barcelona having at least 10 La Masia/National players in their team. It seems that it's extremely rare for that to happen.So to say that it's not rare is just incorrect.

Blatter

AIG, have you done a 180 on your opinion of Enrique from about 10-12 months ago?

Iirc, you wanted his head on a proverbial stick.

Bohrio

StringerBell wrote: »

So when you said it's not rare to see 10/11 in the starting line up was that a lie or a mistake?



Ah I kid, people exaggerate all the time, your general point was understood.

Calling the likes of Suarez/Halilovic etc La Masia products is a funny one though (don't think that was you was it?) It's an absolute piss take in fact.

I said it is not rare to see barcelona with 10-11 players in their team, although this hasnt happened lately (see below a quote from my post)

Bohrio wrote: »

Exactly, but when you look at Barcelona its completely different. It not rare to see 9 or 10 (not 10 or 11) national or la masia players in their team, although lately it is more like 6-7.

I was very clear not lately, since I couldnt recall if this has happened again recently. Hence why I said "lately is more like 6-7" which is actually probably wrong as I believe is more like 5.

But from 9-10 it has now gone up to 10-11...

Oh and Suarez is NOT a La Masia players and I am not sure why people are considering him one since he has never been part of La Masia.

deaddonkey15

Bohrio wrote: »

I said it is not rare to see barcelona with 10-11 players in their team, although this hasnt happened lately (see below a quote from my post)



I was very clear not lately, since I couldnt recall if this has happened again recently. Hence why I said "lately is more like 6-7" which is actually probably wrong as I believe is more like 5.

But from 9-10 it has now gone up to 10-11...

Oh and Suarez is NOT a La Masia players and I am not sure why people are considering him one since he has never been part of La Masia.

Yes, you said not lately. You also said it was not rare. So when was it not rare for this happen? I would imagine you'd have to go back 20 years at least. Seems rare to me.

Bohrio

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

So you don't like when people put words in other people's mouths, but you quote my post and edit it to include your own part, as if I had said it?

What have I got wrong exactly? Did you or did you not write this exact sentence:

"It not rare to see 9 or 10 national or la masia players in their team, although lately it is more like 6-7."


fyi

rare1
rɛː/Submit
adjective
(of an event, situation, or condition) not occurring very often.

I think it is you who can't admit they are wrong based on the definition of rare above, and the fact that there is only 1 cited example here of Barcelona having at least 10 La Masia/National players in their team. It seems that it's extremely rare for that to happen.So to say that it's not rare is just incorrect.

Thats why I wrote fyp (fixed your post)... oh God

I said 9-10 you went up to 10-11... or not?

And I wasnt the one who cited Tito's example of Barcelona playing with 11 national/la masia players, and it was 11, not 10... 11. Again putting words in my mouth...

Although I did mention it on a later post

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Yes, you said not lately. You also said it was not rare. So when was it not rare for this happen? I would imagine you'd have to go back 20 years at least. Seems rare to me.

And it is true, rare (unusual) and lately (recent times)

Let me rewrite the sentence

It is not unusual to find 9-10 national/la masia players, although in recent times this is more like 6-7

StringerBell

Bohrio wrote: »

I said it is not rare to see barcelona with 10-11 players in their team, although this hasnt happened lately (see below a quote from my post)



I was very clear not lately, since I couldnt recall if this has happened again recently. Hence why I said "lately is more like 6-7" which is actually probably wrong as I believe is more like 5.

But from 9-10 it has now gone up to 10-11...

Oh and Suarez is NOT a La Masia players and I am not sure why people are considering him one since he has never been part of La Masia.

My apologies, the 10/11 was a typo on my part, and I did tell you the general point was understood, I was clear in my post.

Neither are La Masia products, how anyone could pretend otherwise is mind boggling. Ahh I see who said it now, not surprised!

deaddonkey15

Bohrio wrote: »

Thats why I wrote fyp (fixed your post)... oh God

I said 9-10 you went up to 10-11... or not?

And I wasnt the one who cited Tito's example of Barcelona playing with 11 national/la masia players, and it was 11, not 10... 11. Again putting words in my mouth...

Although I did mention it on a later post



And it is true, rare (unusual) and lately (recent times)

Let me rewrite the sentence

It is not unusual to find 9-10 national/la masia players, although in recent times this is more like 6-7

In the first team?

symbolic

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

In the first team?

Although I think we now have issues on who is a La Masia product.

Who is a La Masia product, just play for Barcelona B for a season?

Barcelona First Team: http://www.fcbarcelona.com/football/first-team/staff

Caovyn Lineah

Jesus lads, At this exact moment with everyone fit, how many Barca players in a starting 11 would have been brought their youth teams? 3/4?

StringerBell

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Without meaning to be harsh I'm not all that bothered. If I'm throwing around La Masia figures in the future then yes I will probably include Halilovic (and I do expect him to be part of the Barcelona first team in the near future, he's excellent), afterall whose going to stop me?

So you will include them even though La Masia itself does not.....

Common sense indeed.

Bohrio

symbolic wrote: »

Although I think we now have issues on who is a La Masia product.

Who is a La Masia product, just play for Barcelona B for a season?

Barcelona First Team: http://www.fcbarcelona.com/football/first-team/staff

After seeing some posts here I dont think people fully understand what La Masia is.

Players can join from as young as 6 years old. It is not specific to Barcelona B in anyway, it is a School or an Academy where football players go to learn their style of football. IMO it doesnt matter if it is for 1 year or 10, as long as you apply or make use of what you learn in that School.

link

Anyway enough La masia stuff for me. Back to the game

StringerBell

Bohrio wrote: »

After seeing some posts here I dont think people fully understand what La Masia is.

Players can join from as young as 6 years old. It is not exclusive to Barcelona B in anyway, it is a School or an Academy where football players go to learn their style of football.

link

I'd say its probably just the one person. Oddly enough the one who would profess to know more about Barcelona then anybody else here.

Andersonisgod

Blatter wrote: »

AIG, have you done a 180 on your opinion of Enrique from about 10-12 months ago?

Iirc, you wanted his head on a proverbial stick.

Completely yes. As I said earlier in this thread and I've explained before, the criticisms of his reign up till January were entirely justified. He took over after Tata Martino's dreadful run as head coach and didn't seem to change or improve very much at all, on top of that he managed to fall out with Mathieu, Pique and Messi while Iniesta looked completely uncomfortable in his system. Things looked bleak after that loss to Real Madrid and Sociedad.

It was only after this that the true Enrique emerged, his ideas clear for all to see, his stamp on the team obvious and his tactical and fitness philosophies began to pay off. Even his attitude seemed to change as he became more relaxed and confident in the job. His Barcelona now is a million miles away from Martino's or his own in those first 6 months. He has proven himself a magnificent Barcelona coach, no doubts remain about Enrique.

Andersonisgod

StringerBell wrote: »

I'd say its probably just the one person. Oddly enough the one who would profess to know more about Barcelona then anybody else here.

I'm more than aware of the split but I figured I'd dumb it down so that when you hear commentators talk about "La Masia products" and they include Halilovic and Suarez in that you wouldn't be getting confused. I'm a nice guy like that.

Andersonisgod

Caovyn Lineah wrote: »

Jesus lads, At this exact moment with everyone fit, how many Barca players in a starting 11 would have been brought their youth teams? 3/4?

More than Liverpool's starting eleven anyway and more than almost any top European club.

StringerBell

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I'm more than aware of the split but I figured I'd dumb it down so that when you hear commentators talk about "La Masia products" and they include Halilovic and Suarez in that you wouldn't be getting confused. I'm a nice guy like that.

No you didn't and no they won't.

symbolic

"The player who has passed through La Masia has something different to the rest, it's a plus that only comes from having competed in a Barcelona shirt from the time you were a child."
— Barcelona coach Pep Guardiola

That would have been the impression I got. So I think it maybe misleading throwing around some of the names here to compliment La Masia. Im not sure why people would need to throw more names at it as its already an impressive list of names.

Personally it has produced some of my favourite players.

Really enjoyed the game yesterday. Barcelona were fantastic to watch.

Andersonisgod

StringerBell wrote: »

No you didn't.

There's a differentiation between a B team player and a player like Pique or Xavi who were at the club since they were a kid, that's obvious and the B team doesn't fall under the same category as say the Juvenile A side does, again that's obvious. Will a TV commentator (an English speaking one particularly) really be making that distinction? Pedro is an example of a player who joined the club later than most of his peers and played C and B football for Barcelona but do English pundits refer to him as a Masia product?

Andersonisgod

StringerBell wrote: »

No you didn't and no they won't.

As I said, your wrong on both counts, again see my reference to Pedro Rodriguez.

StringerBell

Did you say that in the future you will include them in La Masia numbers? Yes, yes you did.

Now you are trying to back out of the hole you drove in to, please, continue.

Dozen Wicked Words

Hasn't been any discussion of the actual match for a while, so I'd say the thread is done.

Edit: We'll keep going, for discussion of the match only. Any other topics of discussion will be deleted or mod action taken.

Irish94

Did an Irish player ever play in an ElClassico?

Flint Fredstone

Irish94 wrote: »

Did an Irish player ever play in an ElClassico?

I'm pretty sure no Irish player played for either team.

GavRedKing

There was a definetly an Irish manager in charge of Barca for a few years, pre WW2.

No idea of the name off the top of my head though.

luckyboy

GavRedKing wrote: »

There was a definetly an Irish manager in charge of Barca for a few years, pre WW2.

No idea of the name off the top of my head though.

Patrick O'Connell?