MATCH THREAD: Bath vs Leinster, Sat 21st Nov 2015 15:15, The Rec, BTEUR

KH25

Our lineouts have been dreadful all season. The handling errors are just infuriating too. There's no creativity.

Sean Kinsella

Absolute dire indefencible rubbish.

aimee1

molloyjh wrote: »

The biggest disappointment of all was that decision to go for the posts

it was the only time leinster had any momentum in the game an they just kicked it, literally, back to Bath.

corny

We look a tired, demoralised side.

Weird that. Lads should be bursting at the seams this early in the season.

Crimsonforce

moc looking like a world beater now

ThisRegard

A-Train wrote: »

also BOD really sold his soul working for them.

How dare he take employment.

Tox56

McGrath just has to start from now on, if it turns out hes not good enough so be it, but we just cant go on with Boss and Reddan as our two main 9s, that situation has been going on for too long as it is

A-Train

molloyjh wrote: »

It's not all bad. That penalty try was very harsh and there was small margins here and there that could have made a difference. The biggest disappointment of all was that decision to go for the posts at the end. That was awful. We just need to keep our heads and build from here. We need to trust the young lads more and they showed that today when they came on.

I generally always like your posts and opinions but I honestly can't see were you can see or take positives from this match or the season overall. I would have stuck with the kids from the earlier games in the season, some of the regulars are shocking at the moment.

Sean Kinsella

molloyjh wrote: »

It's not all bad. That penalty try was very harsh and there was small margins here and there that could have made a difference. The biggest disappointment of all was that decision to go for the posts at the end. That was awful. We just need to keep our heads and build from here. We need to trust the young lads more and they showed that today when they came on.

It's as bad as it looks; out of Europe after 2 rounds and the PT was the correct decision for me; they would have scored in any event.

We aren't good enough; there it is.

Peregrine

Still can't believe they went for the posts from there.

awec

Even if a pen try wasn't given they would probably have scored, I think they had a 2 on 1 on the blindside when they picked the ball out of the scrum.

Going for the posts was insane, such a poor call from experienced players. Did they not have faith that they could go through the motions further up the pitch, or were they worried that this was their last shot and they'd spend the last 6 minutes just keeping it tight?

Triumvirate

molloyjh wrote: »

It's not all bad. That penalty try was very harsh.

It really, really wasn't. Leinster fans would be roaring at the referee if the shoe was on the other foot. We had gone up and broken binds as we went back at a rate of knots.

the kelt

Well that was dire.

Scrum obliterated, no organisation, set pieces all over the place, line out????

In the space of months to go from relatively unlucky semi finalists to losing first two games for the first time in 20 years??

And ye can't even say we were unlucky.

We looked amateur out there to be honest.

Thelomen Toblackai

Well that was a short campaign !

Rightwing

At least a losing bonus point was secured. Can't see that Bath team causing other teams trouble.

Sean Kinsella

the kelt wrote: »

Well that was dire.

Scrum obliterated, no organisation, set pieces all over the place, line out????

In the space of months to go from relatively unlucky semi finalists to losing first two games for the first time in 20 years??

And ye can't even say we were unlucky.

We looked amateur out there to be honest.

Cullen has just come out with nonsense to the BT cameras; don't want to repeat it TBH, but he looks every inch the beaten man completely.

First Up

The PT was just the inevitable next step after being minced in the scrum all day. You really couldn't argue with the result, but trying that long range penalty was a poor choice. In the previous minutes we had shown our only real attacking capability.

awec

Rightwing wrote: »

At least a losing bonus point was secured. Can't see that Bath team causing other teams trouble.

I'd say they'd cause all the provinces a pretty large amount of trouble.

Emperor1989

Leinster at the peak of there powers would have struggled today with a Scrum that was a complete shambles. It was the primary source of Baths scores, the try and at least 2 if not 3 penos. I was very disappointed even when the subs came on that it couldn't lock out at all against the opposition.

It was a much improved display from last week but the scrum needs fixing and I am not sure its all the fault of the front row. The back 5 are not the biggest or strongest in club rugby by any means and it may take a while before they unity of the scrum comes together.

Van Der Flier deserves a start in the next match for me as does McGrath at scrumhalf.

ThisRegard

Sean Kinsella wrote: »

Cullen has just come out with nonsense to the BT cameras; don't want to repeat it TBH, but he looks every inch the beaten man completely.

Please do. I switched off and over to Newstalk.

matthew8

If we had set piece parity we'd have won that game comfortably. Plenty of positives to take. Kicking game was pretty effective in the second half, when we had to chase the game we scored a try pretty quickly and all the young guys looked good. If we'd won last weeks game I think most people would be pretty satisfied with that. We're all but out of Europe but I think we can be optimistic about the league.

Does anyone know just how short we were on the long kick? There was definitely a slight wind in our favour in the second half.

molloyjh

A-Train wrote: »

I generally always like your posts and opinions but I honestly can't see were you can see or take positives from this match or the season overall. I would have stuck with the kids from the earlier games in the season, some of the regulars are shocking at the moment.

There's a whole bunch of reasons why things are the way they are. This is only the 3rd week that the internationals have played under this coaching set-up which we all know is looking to play a very different way to MOCs Leinster and Joes Ireland. Getting over the RWC and getting to grips with a new game like that takes time. Remember even without the massive RWC disappointment Joe still took 5-6 weeks to get everything bedded in.

This is further compounded by the fact that last week we were missing almost all of our first choice back line outside 10. And this week we were missing arguably our 2 best forwards (Maccer & SOB). Luke and Ben had only played together in the centre once before today. And then a few selection issues made it worse. I was saying yesterday that Luke McGrath and VDF should have been starting. We saw what they could bring to the table.

I do think a few guys, Sexton and maybe Heaslip, just aren't quite right. I think they could use some time off. But over the course of the season if we can get some consistency in a few areas, selection and performance, there is something there that we can build on. We've a good few players who are very, very good. And we have them all over the park. And we're looking to implement a more attacking game plan to utilise their skill sets. We can come good and we have the resources to do so. This is where Leo has to stand up and earn his stripes. He needs to back what they are doing and back a few of the younger lads. He needs to make sure he doesn't retreat into his shell.

Rightwing

awec wrote: »

I'd say they'd cause all the provinces a pretty large amount of trouble.

I agree, but that's a serious worry for Irish rugby.

I remain pessimistic.

Clegg

Actually thought Heaslip had a very good 2nd half. Looked a lot more energetic.

Rightwing

Sean Kinsella wrote: »

Cullen has just come out with nonsense to the BT cameras; don't want to repeat it TBH, but he looks every inch the beaten man completely.

I have sympathy for him. I won't judge him, will let Leinster fans do that, what I will say is Leinster have gone from hiring top class coaches to outright panic decisions.

blackdog1

I've said this a thousand times we need a big scrummaging hooker and same in the 2nd row. Ross can't hold it on his own. The reserves got killed and lahiff. And catt are both lh and they won that last penalty!.

Emperor1989

molloyjh wrote: »

There's a whole bunch of reasons why things are the way they are. This is only the 3rd week that the internationals have played under this coaching set-up which we all know is looking to play a very different way to MOCs Leinster and Joes Ireland. Getting over the RWC and getting to grips with a new game like that takes time. Remember even without the massive RWC disappointment Joe still took 5-6 weeks to get everything bedded in.

This is further compounded by the fact that last week we were missing almost all of our first choice back line outside 10. And this week we were missing arguably our 2 best forwards (Maccer & SOB). Luke and Ben had only played together in the centre once before today. And then a few selection issues made it worse. I was saying yesterday that Luke McGrath and VDF should have been starting. We saw what they could bring to the table.

I do think a few guys, Sexton and maybe Heaslip, just aren't quite right. I think they could use some time off. But over the course of the season if we can get some consistency in a few areas, selection and performance, there is something there that we can build on. We've a good few players who are very, very good. And we have them all over the park. And we're looking to implement a more attacking game plan to utilise their skill sets. We can come good and we have the resources to do so. This is where Leo has to stand up and earn his stripes. He needs to back what they are doing and back a few of the younger lads. He needs to make sure he doesn't retreat into his shell.

You would think they would give Heaslip a little time off.....he has to be running on fumes at this stage.

Hagz

One thing to bear in mind is that Triggs went off and Ruddock went in the second-row. I think if that hadn't happened our scrum would have improved dramatically. I really think Ross is well off the pace at the moment. If he isn't locking the scrum then there's really no reason he should be on the field ahead of Furlong and Moore.

Sean Kinsella

ThisRegard wrote: »

Please do. I switched off and over to Newstalk.

Well the interviewer asked him some upbeat questions;

weren't clinical enough....too many penalties....proud of the way we came back....looked the stronger team in the last 10 mins (?????)

The scrum (system??) has 4 international props so a bad day at the office....so we'll dust ourselves off and go again in the PRO12 vs Ulster....Toulon will be tough but blah blah blah....hard to say if we're out of Europe or not....

molloyjh

Clegg wrote: »

Actually thought Heaslip had a very good 2nd half. Looked a lot more energetic.

He was, and maybe he's getting back into it. Johnny does need a break though.

molloyjh

Sean Kinsella wrote: »

Well the interviewer asked him some upbeat questions;

weren't clinical enough....too many penalties....proud of the way we came back....looked the stronger team in the last 10 mins (?????)

The scrum (system??) has 4 international props so a bad day at the office....so we'll dust ourselves off and go again in the PRO12 vs Ulster....Toulon will be tough but blah blah blah....hard to say if we're out of Europe or not....

There was absolutely nothing wrong with that interview.

aimee1

Emperor1989 wrote: »

You would think they would give Heaslip a little time off.....he has to be running on fumes at this stage.

given his RWC workload i wonder if he is more mentally tired then anything. He has essentially been on the go at top level since end of June.

blackdog1

Hagz wrote: »

One thing to bear in mind is that Triggs went off and Ruddock went in the second-row. I think if that hadn't happened our scrum would have improved dramatically. I really think Ross is well off the pace at the moment. If he isn't locking the scrum then there's really no reason he should be on the field ahead of Furlong and Moore.

Ruddock is bigger than triggs I dont but that at all.. it was like Moore was on skates. I don't blame him either we need a big scrummaging hooker. Stephen Moore or Adrian Strauss

Sean Kinsella

molloyjh wrote: »

There was absolutely nothing wrong with that interview.

Well if you want to make excuses I guess not and in fairness you've been conducting damage limitation already.

Excuses don't change the scoreboard and Cullen looked absolutely beaten.

molloyjh

Triumvirate wrote: »

It really, really wasn't. Leinster fans would be roaring at the referee if the shoe was on the other foot. We had gone up and broken binds as we went back at a rate of knots.

Going backwards is not an offence. Popping up and breaking the bind is, which both teams did at the same time. In almost every other scrum I've seen over the last couple of years that gets met with a reset because both rows went up.

Hagz

blackdog1 wrote: »

Ruddock is bigger than triggs I dont but that at all.. it was like Moore was on skates. I don't blame him either we need a big scrummaging hooker. Stephen Moore or Adrian Strauss

Well to begin with Rhys Ruddock is 6'3 whereas Triggs is 6'7. It has to be awkward to have a 6'11 and a 6'3 lock pairing packing down at the scrum. But more importantly Ruddock isn't a second row by trade. So there's simply no arguing that it would have negatively affected the scrum.

Secondly, we don't need a big hooker. Dane Coles isn't big. Schalk Brits isn't big. Richardt Strauss isn't big. Rory Best isn't big. Technique is what matters, not size.

Tox56

Sean Kinsella wrote: »

Well if you want to make excuses I guess not and in fairness you've been conducting damage limitation already.

Excuses don't change the scoreboard and Cullen looked absolutely beatem.

Am I missing something here? What did he say that was so heinous that you literally didnt even think it was appropriate to repeat it on here? It seemed a pretty bog standard interview

Chorus_suck

This post has been deleted.

molloyjh

Sean Kinsella wrote: »

Well if you want to make excuses I guess not and in fairness you've been conducting damage limitation already.

Excuses don't change the scoreboard and Cullen looked absolutely beaten.

Of course he looked beaten. We're probably out of Europe. Any coach would. It's not about making excuses, it's about looking forward. Which is totally different. What Cullen said was completely fine and nothing out of the ordinary. What would you have liked him to say?

Sean Kinsella

Tox56 wrote: »

Am I missing something here? What did he say that was so heinous that you literally didnt even think it was appropriate to repeat it on here? It seemed a pretty bog standard interview

I don't suggest heinous, simply nonsensical. We were not the strongest team in the last 10 and if we were, how come we went and threw that last LO straight to them? I also felt he was blithe about the destruction of our scrum and our Euro prospects. You can say...he has to talk us up and fine, but it was spin at best.

awec

Decent chance Leinster could end this pool without a single win.

Swan Curry

Sean Kinsella wrote: »

I don't suggest heinous, simply nonsensical. We were not the strongest team in the last 10 and if we were, how come we went and threw that last LO straight to them? I also felt he was blithe about the destruction of our scrum and our Euro prospects. You can say...he has to talk us up and fine, but it was spin at best.

So it was literally almost every other post-match interview then

Sean Kinsella

molloyjh wrote: »

Of course he looked beaten. We're probably out of Europe. Any coach would. It's not about making excuses, it's about looking forward. Which is totally different. What Cullen said was completely fine and nothing out of the ordinary. What would you have liked him to say?

I'd like him to DO not say if that's what we're getting to, but he could have owned the destruction of the scrum a little more. He could also stop suggesting that we looked the stronger team in the last 10.

Sean Kinsella

Swan Curry wrote: »

So it was literally almost every other post-match interview then

Quite possibly...

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Decent chance Leinster could end this pool without a single win.

I don't see that happening. We lost by a single score away to Bath while still trying to integrate most of the players on the field. Come January we should be in a far better place. It's highly likely we'll only manage 1 or 2 wins though.

molloyjh

Sean Kinsella wrote: »

I'd like him to DO not say if that's what we're getting to, but he could have owned the destruction of the scrum a little more. He could also stop suggesting that we looked the stronger team in the last 10.

But we had the majority of the momentum in the last 15, other than that couple of minutes?

Tox56

awec wrote: »

Decent chance Leinster could end this pool without a single win.

If Leinster's form is still this poor in January we'll have bigger issues than not winning a game in Europe. If we're playing well we will surely win at least one game

Sean Kinsella

molloyjh wrote: »

But we had the majority of the momentum in the last 15, other than that couple of minutes?

OK I hear that, but there just seems a fragility about us (and did last season too), so I always got the impression that Bath had enough to hold us off, which is exactly what happened. We helped them out with that LO too, so I can't see the stronger team argument.

aimee1

Sean Kinsella wrote: »

OK I hear that, but there just seems a fragility about us (and did last season too), so I always got the impression that Bath had enough to hold us off, which is exactly what happened. We helped them out with that LO too, so I can't see the stronger team argument.

Nacewa and Sexton helped them out hugely with the decision to go for the posts too.

stephen_n

molloyjh wrote: »

It's highly likely we'll only manage 1 or 2 wins though.

Which if we wound the clock back to when the group was first drawn, was always a possibility and in a lot of people's eyes a probability. A few wins with a weakened team, against weakened teams and expectations rose hugely. This is a complete rebuild, it wasn't going to just happen over night, especially with the RWC this year.