MATCH THREAD: Bath vs Leinster, Sat 21st Nov 2015 15:15, The Rec, BTEUR

gmurphy70

My god our front row was destroyed today and this decided the game in my opinion. Mike Ross is on his last and should only be a bit player,great servant but his time is up. Sean Cronin despite people saying how great he is in the loose is not able to perform his 2 jobs,that is to hook and to throw,he can't do neither and Leinster need to get Strauss on the field for a long stretch. Healy I seriously am really worried here,though I think he was never world class he did performed to a high level,he is only a shadow now. Major reconstruction needed Leo,push out the older under performing players and start blooding new talent for this year. McGrath at scrum, Ringrose at centre and Furllong at tight head are 3 for starters,IMO!

Hagz

Cian Healy was certainly world class at one point in time. It upsets me that his drop in form is negatively impacting people's opinion of what he has done. He was up there as one of the best loose-heads in world rugby. He's been riddled with injury and break might do him some good.

vienne86

Disappointing afternoon for my house full of Leinster supporters. Scrum was woeful. Jack should have started at 1 and probaby Marty at 3. I won't go on because it wil have all been thrashed out here by people who know much more about rugby than I do.

It's very obvious that the players are not at all used to Cullen's systems, and we shouldn't be surprised, but I think some of the Ireland players look as if they really could do with a break. We are out of Europe, so we should use the remaining matches to bring on some of the younger guys - Ringrose, Van der Flier, Luke McGrath, Moloney etc.

Thankfully we were much better than last week.

Journeyman_1

The negativity from some supporters genuinely makes me sadder than losing sometimes. It's not a great result, but the performance had a lot of positives. Before the pool started, we very likely would have taken 4:1 in Bath with the aim to both better that in Dublin and get better results against Toulon to go through as a runner up. The scrum didn't go very well and the lineout could have been better. The breakdown needs work and we know we can't afford to ship too many injuries in a lot of positions. All of that together and we were still in this until the very end and could have knicked it.

Personally, I'm gonna get behind the boys, try to get to a few games and cheer them on. They need it a lot more now than when things are going really well. We showed last year that we have the potential to beat Toulon away, so a big 2 games in December and who knows what could happen!

Crimsonforce

Hagz wrote: »

Cian Healy was certainly world class at one point in time. It upsets me that his drop in form is negatively impacting people's opinion of what he has done. He was up there as one of the best loose-heads in world rugby. He's been riddled with injury and break might do him some good.

He's had a 6 month break. He needs to up his game considerably. More scrummaging and less djing.

Hagz

I don't know if I'd call rehab a break but whatever.

ThisRegard

Journeyman_1 wrote: »

The negativity from some supporters genuinely makes me sadder than losing sometimes.

2 games in and most likely out of the championship already, one loss was a abysmal showing at home.

That's not negativity from supporters, it's simply fact.

Journeyman_1

ThisRegard wrote: »

2 games in and most likely out of the championship already, one loss was a abysmal showing at home.

That's not negativity from supporters, it's simply fact.

I get that, it's disappointing but there is some extreme negativity that just bothers me. I have no problem with constructive analysis fwiw.

awec

If Healy gets a break then he comes back and needs game time again to get up to speed.

I don't think fatigue is his issue, there is something else wrong. Maybe he is carrying too much bulk, maybe he has just lost that spark he used to have.

blackdog1

Crimsonforce wrote: »

He's had a 6 month break. He needs to up his game considerably. More scrummaging and less djing.

The man's had massive spinal surgery....give him time. On hagz point on technique over power I agree to a point but when bath had as good as technique as us today but more power...constantly getting a secondary drive from their 2nd rows. We need a brad thorn 2nd row and he was only barely 6 5. I've stood next to Ruddock too and he's a monster easily 6 4 .

vienne86

awec wrote: »

If Healy gets a break then he comes back and needs game time again to get up to speed.

I don't think fatigue is his issue, there is something else wrong. Maybe he is carrying too much bulk, maybe he has just lost that spark he used to have.

You're right. Sexton and Heaslip look to me like they could do with being sent off to the Canaries for a break.

former total

Journeyman_1 wrote: »

I get that, it's disappointing but there is some extreme negativity that just bothers me. I have no problem with constructive analysis fwiw.

Yeah, it seems people were just waiting for a setback so they could say "I told you so"

Things were going quite nicely in the league, everyone was happy enough, but it seems we all vastly underestimated the job of getting the world cup guys back in and up to speed with an entirely new coaching lineup, how much it would have taken out of them etc.

Rome wasn't built in a day. Our success under Joe was many years in the making. No one could ever replicate that, not even Joe, so let's just be patient and perhaps a bit more realistic.

First Up

blackdog1 wrote:

The man's had massive spinal surgery....give him time. On hagz point on technique over power I agree to a point but when bath had as good as technique as us today but more power...constantly getting a secondary drive from their 2nd rows. We need a brad thorn 2nd row and he was only barely 6 5. I've stood next to Ruddock too and he's a monster easily 6 4 .

Felt for Tracy in his first European start. He showed well in the loose but that lost lineout blew the last chance. Don't know whose fault but a sad way to mark his debut.

errlloyd

First Up wrote: »

Felt for Tracy in his first European start. He showed well in the loose but that lost lineout blew the last chance. Don't know whose fault but a sad way to mark his debut.

The only person who was involved in that line out who was definitely not to blame was him surely. They lifted no one.

Triumvirate

molloyjh wrote: »

Going backwards is not an offence. Popping up and breaking the bind is, which both teams did at the same time. In almost every other scrum I've seen over the last couple of years that gets met with a reset because both rows went up.

Leinster broke their bind because they came under pressure and couldn't maintain it. Popping up actually isn't an offence; should be a reset if they go up, officially.

But we know that's not how a scrum is refereed.

First Up

errlloyd wrote:

The only person who was involved in that line out who was definitely not to blame was him surely. They lifted no one.

Crossed wires of some sort. Just a pity he was involved - his only lineout throw as far as I remember.

vienne86

First Up wrote: »

Crossed wires of some sort. Just a pity he was involved - his only lineout throw as far as I remember.

I would say we were all gutted for the guy as he really was good around the park. I presume the communications broke down.

CatFromHue

Hard to know as obviously a call of some sort was made as the Bath guys jumped for it.

Other than the drop goal did all of Bath's penalties come from scrum infringements?

Certainly most of them did anyway which is amazing.

flouncer

former total wrote: »

Yeah, it seems people were just waiting for a setback so they could say "I told you so"

Things were going quite nicely in the league, everyone was happy enough, but it seems we all vastly underestimated the job of getting the world cup guys back in and up to speed with an entirely new coaching lineup, how much it would have taken out of them etc.

Rome wasn't built in a day. Our success under Joe was many years in the making. No one could ever replicate that, not even Joe, so let's just be patient and perhaps a bit more realistic.

Having being one who was hugely critical of Robbie Henshaw, Kieran Marmion and Pat Lam in their formative years I can back this opinion 100%

Flipper22

Other than the scrum it was a pretty decent performance I thought, a win today would have been a huge result. People are just dissapointed because we're probably out of Europe. The poor performance was last week.

CatFromHue

I thought it was too and they didn't give up fighting either.

Bath finished second in the table of last years Aviva and lost in the final so a 3 point loss away to them when nearly all their points came from scrum infringements isn't bad.

shuffol

Is Greg Feek still working with Leinster, there's something a little deeper going on when you've 4 test level props getting their arses handed to them.

Have to say Bath are a lovely team to watch, their ability to get numbers out wide and get the ball quickly to them is excellent, not to mention how they invariably time their passes to perfection to draw in the man.

Was very heartening to see McGrath and VDF link up for the try, it really was a beautiful delayed pass from McGrath and great to see a forward running onto the ball from deep for a change.

This season will probably go down in the annals as a stinker but I really feel we can lay the foundations for a real crack at Europe next season if we get a good run with injuries. Moore and L.McGrath must be given a proper chance to hold down a starting jersey and good gametime for Molony, VDF and Ringrose also needs to be a priority.

WarZ

shuffol wrote: »

Is Greg Feek still working with Leinster, there's something a little deeper going on when you've 4 test level props getting their arses handed to them.

Have to say Bath are a lovely team to watch, their ability to get numbers out wide and get the ball quickly to them is excellent, not to mention how they invariably time their passes to perfection to draw in the man.

Was very heartening to see McGrath and VDF link up for the try, it really was a beautiful delayed pass from McGrath and great to see a forward running onto the ball from deep for a change.

This season will probably go down in the annals as a stinker but I really feel we can lay the foundations for a real crack at Europe next season if we get a good run with injuries. Moore and L.McGrath must be given a proper chance to hold down a starting jersey and good gametime for Molony, VDF and Ringrose also needs to be a priority.

It's time for VDF, Ringrose, McGrath, Moore, Furlong, Molony, Conan because the older generation are starting to stink. They just aren't putting in the same effort and are FAR too comfortable.

molloyjh

WarZ wrote: »

It's time for VDF, Ringrose, McGrath, Moore, Furlong, Molony, Conan because the older generation are starting to stink. They just aren't putting in the same effort and are FAR too comfortable.

They're too slow as well. Don't forget that.

Auterac was excellent for Bath. Both at set piece and in the loose.

I thought we were fine. Scrum lost us the game. Bath just minced us. They played to their strengths well, Ford is a lovely player. Him getting out of trouble from his own 22 into our half was a huge moment.

What I'd give for Damien Browne back in his pomp alongside Toner in the row. We're missing grunt there and I don't think we have anyone who can provide it.

Neil3030

Certainly an improvement in the performance on Saturday. Echoing many on here, our scrum cost us in a tight game where either team could have felt a deserving winner.

Positives
- I thought our defence in open play was solid. Only conceding a try from our rickety scrum tells the story here.
- I thought Luke and Ben were very good in midfield. Would like to see more of them in future. Ben in particular showed great aggression when shooting, and Luke gained hard yards in the tight with some nice footwork.
- JVDF looks to have increased a good bit in size since last time I saw him. Always had excellent technique, so it's nice to see he's been hitting the cheeseburgers to good effect. Though it's a bit sobering to hear the BT comms pronounce his name as "flee-er". Was I the only one pronouncing it like "flyer"?

Also, though Bruce Craig may not be a great lad, Bath is an absolutely fantastic city, and the fans were brilliant fun and very sporting. A trip worth taking (again) next time it comes along!

errlloyd

Neil3030 wrote: »

Positives
- I thought Luke and Ben were very good in midfield. Would like to see more of them in future. Ben in particular showed great aggression when shooting, and Luke gained hard yards in the tight with some nice footwork.

I was pretty underwelmed. I felt it was Teo who was biting too easily at the start and giving them linebreaks on the outside, and I felt Luke struggled to make yards. We really should have been as direct as possible, really taken the ball to Ford, Eastmonde and Devoto. Too often Luke carried and Teo didn't, and while they looked to offload, no one was running for it.

molloyjh

errlloyd wrote: »

I was pretty underwelmed. I felt it was Teo who was biting too easily at the start and giving them linebreaks on the outside, and I felt Luke struggled to make yards. We really should have been as direct as possible, really taken the ball to Ford, Eastmonde and Devoto. Too often Luke carried and Teo didn't, and while they looked to offload, no one was running for it.

That'll come in time. It was only the second time those 2 lads have played together in the centre and for most of the guys on the park it was only their 3rd time playing under this new game plan. Once things settle down a bit more we'll see improvements.

WarZ

molloyjh wrote: »

That'll come in time. It was only the second time those 2 lads have played together in the centre and for most of the guys on the park it was only their 3rd time playing under this new game plan. Once things settle down a bit more we'll see improvements.

Are the same excuses for MOC now starting up again?

We should expect high standards, the players are not playing close to their potential. This isn't a coaching problem this is down to the players themselves. No one should be making excuses for them.

Teferi

WarZ wrote: »

Are the same excuses for MOC now starting up again?

Could you point out the similarities you see between what Molloy just said and these excuses you've seen for MOC in the past please?

WarZ

Teferi wrote: »

Could you point out the similarities you see between what Molloy just said and these excuses you've seen for MOC in the past please?

Just the whole bull**** about once things settle down and team starts to gel we will see improvements etc.. Funny how nearly every other good side are playing well. You'd swear Leinster are the only side with internationals. As well as that our injury profile is VERY healthy at the moment

WarZ

WarZ wrote: »

Are the same excuses for MOC now starting up again?

We should expect high standards, the players are not playing close to their potential. This isn't a coaching problem this is down to the players themselves. No one should be making excuses for them.

It's not a matter of making excuses. It's putting performances into context but if you are on a witch hunt it doesn't really matter.

The Bath game was a good albeit disappointing result against a top team. I don't think many would come away with a win there, and we should have cleared them out only we have a serious issue with our scrum. If that persists through the season then it is a problem warranting some finger pointing.

The Wasps game was a disaster, topped off with an uncharacteristic and complete capitulation in the closing quarter.

Comparisons to MOC are unrealistic. The only people who were criticising him after 3 months in the job were mostly people like your good self. Most of the broader criticism came throughout the second season when we went backwards not forwards and it was fairly wide spread. Most people were saying we wouldn't get as experienced a coach if we let him go, which was proved to be correct, but that's not the same as defending him.

aimee1

WarZ wrote: »

Just the whole bull**** about once things settle down and team starts to gel we will see improvements etc.. Funny how nearly every other good side are playing well. You'd swear Leinster are the only side with internationals. As well as that our injury profile is VERY healthy at the moment

No other side had as many players away as leinster.

Now is not the time to panic or to go all hysterical. Leo needs to be given time. JS started with 3 losses from 4 at leinster

Wasps have had practically a full deck since the AP started and they are flying right now. In fact the AP teams had a good start in europe because of the fixture layout this season. The time to form judgements is around the time the 6n starts

WarZ

WarZ wrote: »

Just the whole bull**** about once things settle down and team starts to gel we will see improvements etc.. Funny how nearly every other good side are playing well. You'd swear Leinster are the only side with internationals. As well as that our injury profile is VERY healthy at the moment

Missing 5 guaranteed starters from our first Euro game, missing 4 guaranteed starters from our second Euro game and mostly from either forwards or backs.

Honestly, it's unfortunate that our Euro campaign is most likely out the window now, but you don't seem to grasp that that teams require continuity to start building performances and we've had none since last season.

Look at the criticisms at Lancaster because he hadn't settled his back line. We've had enforced chopping and changing all season to a far far greater extent. It's not a coincidence that we're struggling against top teams.

Anyway, no point debating this - will leave it there.

CatFromHue

WarZ wrote: »

Just the whole bull**** about once things settle down and team starts to gel we will see improvements etc.. Funny how nearly every other good side are playing well. You'd swear Leinster are the only side with internationals. As well as that our injury profile is VERY healthy at the moment

15-20 players only met the coach for the first time a few weeks ago

former total

WarZ wrote: »

Just the whole bull**** about once things settle down and team starts to gel we will see improvements etc.. Funny how nearly every other good side are playing well. You'd swear Leinster are the only side with internationals. As well as that our injury profile is VERY healthy at the moment

Well, the teams who had the largest international contingent at the World Cup were Leinster, Glasgow (lost at home to NH) and Toulon (hammered by Wasps).

The likes of Leicester, Bath and Wasps had much smaller representations.

Our injury profile is OK right now, last week (which was the only really poor performance), we were missing a heap of players.

So literally everything you've said is wrong.

WarZ

CatFromHue wrote: »

15-20 players only met the coach for the first time a few weeks ago

Leo has been their coach for a long time. Maybe not head coach but that excuse just doesn't wash.

No excuses the players need to front up and put in some decent training and importantly, match performances. I don't want to see them falling around Krystle and Coppers until they actually start winning. Most AIL clubs wouldn't be out 'celebrating' like some of the Leinster first teamers are if they were losing like Leinster are currently.

No fans will justifiably criticize irish rugby players, its ridiculous.

.ak

former total wrote: »

Well, the teams who had the largest international contingent at the World Cup were Leinster, Glasgow (lost at home to NH) and Toulon (hammered by Wasps).

The likes of Leicester, Bath and Wasps had much smaller representations.

Our injury profile is OK right now, last week (which was the only really poor performance), we were missing a heap of players.

So literally everything you've said is wrong.

I'd add that whilst we got back isa, Luke and Ben we lost Strauss, McCarthy and SOB. So we were missing as many starters as we were last week. Not ideal.

Going back to what Molloy said, midfielders need game time together to click. That's all he said and I completely agree. You need to get an idea of your starting speed, depth, passing distance etc you only get this from playing together really.

.ak

WarZ wrote: »

Leo has been their coach for a long time. Maybe not head coach but that excuse just doesn't wash.

No excuses the players need to front up and put in some decent training and importantly, match performances. I don't want to see them falling around Krystle and Coppers until they actually start winning. Most AIL clubs wouldn't be out 'celebrating' like some of the Leinster first teamers are if they were losing like Leinster are currently.

No fans will justifiably criticize irish rugby players, its ridiculous.

You've already been warned against this, you obviously have an issue with what the players do on their own time. Park it here and don't bring it up again.

WarZ

WarZ wrote: »

Leo has been their coach for a long time. Maybe not head coach but that excuse just doesn't wash.

No excuses the players need to front up and put in some decent training and importantly, match performances. I don't want to see them falling around Krystle and Coppers until they actually start winning. Most AIL clubs wouldn't be out 'celebrating' like some of the Leinster first teamers are if they were losing like Leinster are currently.

No fans will justifiably criticize irish rugby players, its ridiculous.

What sort of nonsense is this? "Rugby players seen out having lives shocker?"

They're not bloody robots, people need to let off steam. Don't know how this is even remotely relevant to a rugby forum, nor relevant to any conversation about performance. Jesus wept.

WarZ

Yeah back to back European games, after a crucial defeat, is the perfect time to let off steam.

Anyway, do you disagree that the likes of Ringrose, Lukel McGrath, Josh Van de Flier, Moore and Furlong, Moloney, Conan don't deserve to have a go at starting?

Who in your opinion had a poor game at the weekend WarZ?

WarZ

WarZ wrote: »

Yeah back to back European games, after a crucial defeat, is the perfect time to let off steam.

It certainly is. Some times you need to put things out of your mind for a while and then get back into it. If you have a bad week in work (remember this is the players jobs) should you not go out on a Friday after work?

WarZ wrote: »

Anyway, do you disagree that the likes of Ringrose, Lukel McGrath, Josh Van de Flier, Moore and Furlong, Moloney, Conan don't deserve to have a go at starting?

Have a go starting what matches? when?

We have a large squad and a long season, everyone is getting and will get plenty of game time. None of those named players have proved yet that they are first choice, none have performed consistently better than players ahead of them or at the same level though some are starting to push close.

Some may have higher ceilings than players ahead of them, and that will come out in the wash in due course and see them as preferred starters.

The notion that changing our line up dramatically with young inexperienced players will somehow turn us into world beaters is laughable. The notion that first choice players are lazy or party animals is equally ill informed.

I can't see anything at all constructive or sensible in what you are saying.

molloyjh

WarZ wrote: »

Leo has been their coach for a long time. Maybe not head coach but that excuse just doesn't wash.

So they should all just suddenly be able to flawlessly implement a brand new game plan within a single game or two while dealing with numerous injuries? Honestly, if you can't see just how ludicrous expectations like that are then you're on a bit of a hiding to nothing.

Nobody is immune from criticism. Healy has gotten a good deal, Ross has been identified as a guy who is struggling, Dippy and Murphy have been called out here for their form, Reddan and Boss have as well, Sextons form has been discussed (although he likely just needs a break to get his head right) and Reids defence has been criticised. So you're raging against something that just isn't happening, i.e. people not criticising Irish players. If you could come down off this crazy rant you've been on since the Argentina game and get a bit of perspective you might actually find things aren't as bad as you're making them out to be.

former total

I dunno, my experience of this board is that people tend to see younger players as the magic bullet, the solution to whatever issue we have is slash and burn the older guys, bring in the younger fellas.

The reality is that very few of them will make the grade. If VDF turns out to be a significantly better player than Jordi Murphy, then that would be brilliant, but chances are he won't (and he'll still have Sean O'Brien in his way). Nothing I've seen from Conan really suggests he'll be top-class. Luke McGrath is much younger than Boss or Reddan but his performances don't really demand his inclusion in the team. Ringrose is a great talent but we've seen so many great talents come in, fail to reach the required standard and move on that I'm reluctant to get too excited.

We were spoiled rotten for a few years with international-class players graduating at a fantastic rate in the late 00s, but it's dried up significantly since then. Ringrose might be the next BOD or he might be the next Brendan Macken.

Lashing a load of youngsters into the team might not help.

molloyjh

former total wrote: »

I dunno, my experience of this board is that people tend to see younger players as the magic bullet, the solution to whatever issue we have is slash and burn the older guys, bring in the younger fellas.

The reality is that very few of them will make the grade. If VDF turns out to be a significantly better player than Jordi Murphy, then that would be brilliant, but chances are he won't (and he'll still have Sean O'Brien in his way). Nothing I've seen from Conan really suggests he'll be top-class. Luke McGrath is much younger than Boss or Reddan but his performances don't really demand his inclusion in the team. Ringrose is a great talent but we've seen so many great talents come in, fail to reach the required standard and move on that I'm reluctant to get too excited.

We were spoiled rotten for a few years with international-class players graduating at a fantastic rate in the late 00s, but it's dried up significantly since then. Ringrose might be the next BOD or he might be the next Brendan Macken.

Lashing a load of youngsters into the team might not help.

Wouldn't disagree with much of that, but I will say that McGrath at this stage has probably shown better form than Redser or Boss. He's not the second coming but he is the form option. And with a ceiling potentially a lot higher than he's hitting now with his competition going only 1 way I think there is a very real case for him.

VDF I'd def ahead of Murphy on form too, but that doesn't mean anything there in the longer term. They're both young.

penybont exile

former total wrote: »

Well, the teams who had the largest international contingent at the World Cup were Leinster, Glasgow (lost at home to NH) and Toulon (hammered by Wasps).

The likes of Leicester, Bath and Wasps had much smaller representations.

Our injury profile is OK right now, last week (which was the only really poor performance), we were missing a heap of players.

So literally everything you've said is wrong.

I'm not a fan of Welsh regional rugby but the Ospreys had a heap of lads at the WC .... They aren't doing too badly now that these players are back.

IMO too much expectation on returning players .... Nacewa & Sexton. What do they say about never going back?

Also ..... just a thought ladies and gents ..... but I think Sexton's better days might well be behind him.

Hagz

penybont exile wrote: »

Also ..... just a thought ladies and gents ..... but I think Sexton's better days might well be behind him.

With the change in personnel around him that's pretty inevitable.

penybont exile

Hagz wrote: »

With the change in personnel around him that's pretty inevitable.

That's a fair statement ......