Why is public transport in Dublin so bad?

LXFlyer

Chuchote wrote: »

By this logic, shouldn't the Aircoach be stopped altogether? It competes with buses in other places, surely?

Only in the City Centre - where the market is more than big enough for both the commercial and PSO operators to be viable.

Sending a commercial airport service to an area bereft of hotels and relying solely on the residential market in competition with a much lower subsidised fare wouldn't make much sense to me.

Bear in mind that the commercial 747 is already serving the Christchurch area.

Anyone between Terenure and Leonard's Corner has the 16, and anyone along the rest of Clanbrassil St has either the 16 or 747 within a short walking distance.

I'm struggling to see how you think such a commercial route could be viable given the fact that Aircoach stopped the original one for financial reasons and there are existing services in place.

Chuchote

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm struggling to see how you think such a commercial route could be viable given the fact that Aircoach stopped the original one for financial reasons and there are existing services in place.

As I said, an Aircoach driver told me that it wasn't for commercial reasons.

LXFlyer

Chuchote wrote: »

As I said, an Aircoach driver told me that it wasn't for commercial reasons.

Well I'm afraid he was wrong - the loadings were atrocious.

It clearly was unsustainable.

Chuchote

The 16 is pretty useless for the airport. I've got it a couple of times, but here are the problems:

• The early morning buses start too late, at 6.30, and are too unreliable; if the 6.30 bus doesn't come, the next one isn't till 7.30
• The late buses stop going beyond the city centre at half ten (as far as I can understand from the strange coding on the timetable http://www.dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/16-2/ )
• During rush hour, the buses can be held up in the city centre for up to 45 minutes

LXFlyer

Chuchote wrote: »

The 16 is pretty useless for the airport. I've got it a couple of times, but here are the problems:

• The early morning buses start too late, at 6.30, and are too unreliable; if the 6.30 bus doesn't come, the next one isn't till 7.30
• The late buses stop going beyond the city centre at half ten (as far as I can understand from the strange coding on the timetable http://www.dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/16-2/ )
• During rush hour, the buses can be held up in the city centre for up to 45 minutes

Well if a commercial operator such as Aircoach thought it was viable then don't you think they would have set it up by now?

Of course the 16 should have longer operating hours but you're not tied to it for the entire route if you don't want to. You can switch to the faster 757 at Kelly's Corner or indeed Aircoach in the city centre if you wish to. Also there is Dublin Coach from Dundrum and Ballinteer for anyone living at the southern end.

I would dispute that it's "useless" going to/from the airport. That depends upon when your flight is - flights operate all day long - not just first thing in the morning or late at night. Plenty of people avoid those flights in order not to have to get up/arrive home at a crazy hour and the 16 can be useful for them, but unfortunately the LUAS works are causing delays.

There's nothing "strange" about the timetables - they have a footnote for certain departures that operate to city centre only. That's standard timetable practice. Last bus from the Airport to Ballinteer is 22:45 Monday-Friday, and 23:00 at weekends, which as the footnote then states, wait on O'Connell Street until 23:30 en route.

Ultimately these decisions about PSO routes and operating hours are down to the NTA. They of course should extend the operating hours of the 16 and other routes, but all of that costs money, something the CEO of the NTA is on record saying she has very little of.

I cannot see any commercial operator thinking your suggested route would be viable.

Dyr

lxflyer wrote: »

Really?
I can tell you exactly why it was pulled - very few customers.
.

Well the poster stated a driver told him otherwise, so you might need to cite a source for your rebuttal

devnull

lxflyer wrote: »

Well I'm afraid he was wrong - the loadings were atrocious.

It clearly was unsustainable.

It was canceled due to not being viable and the company not having the financial position to continue supporting it and marketing it further so essentially what lxflyer said only that had the company been in a better state at the time they would have persisted longer.

LXFlyer

devnull wrote: »

It was canceled due to not being viable and the company not having the financial position to continue supporting it and marketing it further so essentially what lxflyer said only that had the company been in a better state at the time they would have persisted longer.

As I said above the real problem that service had was the total lack of any hotels along the route or a major traffic generator such as a business park.

All of the other commercial services in the Dublin area to/from the airport have those features.

It is very difficult for any commercial operator to survive without them.

Personally I was rather sad to see the service go but seeing the buses travelling around with so much thin air on board really made it very difficult to see how it could last. Dublin Coach at least have the benefit of traffic to/from Red Cow on their Dundrum service, but even it never seems to have huge loadings at the Dundrum end.

Chuchote

lxflyer wrote: »

There's nothing "strange" about the timetables - they have a footnote for certain departures that operate to city centre only. That's standard timetable practice. Last bus from the Airport to Ballinteer is 22:45 Monday-Friday, and 23:00 at weekends, which as the footnote then states, wait on O'Connell Street until 23:30 en route.

This is what I find confusing:

(from airport) "22:45 d"
"d From Dublin Airport, departs O'Connell St.at 23:30"

LXFlyer

Chuchote wrote: »

This is what I find confusing:

(from airport) "22:45 d"
"d From Dublin Airport, departs O'Connell St.at 23:30"

That means the bus operates from Dublin Airport, but will not depart O'Connell Street until 23:30 - it's telling anyone who is getting it that it will wait on O'Connell Street until 23:30.

Kind of important for anyone mid-route going for the last bus to know when it departs from the city centre.

Matthew Gleeson

Chivito550 wrote: »

Have traveled the world, have lived in Melbourne, and have developed an interest in public transport and how various cities around the world do it. Having seen the public transportation systems throughout Continental Europe, the Far East, and in Melbourne, I've come to the conclusion that Dublin must be among the very worst of any reasonably sized major Western city in the world in terms of public transport (excluding most US cities of course, and possibly Auckland).

Just why is it so bad here? Is it a case that we are so car dependent because the public transport is terrible, or is the public transport so poor because Irish people love their cars so much, and there isn't the same appetite for an efficient, extensive and well connected public transport network?

Why on earth were the 2 LUAS lines not connected to begin with?
Why on earth was Heuston station never connected to Pearse or Connolly?
Why are Commuter Rail services so infrequent?
Why does nothing seem to ever connect in this city? (Long walk from Green Line to DART for example)

Why is it that countries like Switzerland can get their sh1t in order and have such a highly efficient integrated service, which encourages people to leave their cars at home, and all we can seem to do is come up with plans, that the various governments had no genuine interest in following through with?

Why do we use our size as a reason for why we don't need a metro? Oslo is the same population as us and has 6 metro lines, 6 tram lines, and around 5-6 commuter rail lines. Copenhagen, Helsinki, Nuremberg are all the same size as us, and have vastly superior networks.

And was digging up our tram lines in the 40s and 50s, in hindsight, the single greatest mistake in the history of public transport in Ireland? Had we as people lobbied to keep them, we could be like Melbourne now (who have the biggest tram network in the world, and were in danger of losing it back in the 60s or 70s, but the locals pressurised the governments to keep it, as far as I understand, as it was part of the city's identity.)

So many questions, mostly borne from frustration at how we sell ourselves so short as a city. How can we call ourselves a modern city when we are 50 years behind our similarly sized European counterparts?

Agree and the cost of those commuter rails are a joke here in Ireland. 60€ one way from Cork to Dublin. It's cheaper often to book a Ryanair flight to stansted and then on to Dublin. Doesn't take much longer either :P

Chuchote

Matthew Gleeson wrote: »

Agree and the cost of those commuter rails are a joke here in Ireland. 60€ one way from Cork to Dublin. It's cheaper often to book a Ryanair flight to stansted and then on to Dublin. Doesn't take much longer either :P

Book it a week ahead and it's usually around €20

Tearing up the rails happened all over Europe - Germany was the only place really building railways, and they had their own nasty reasons.

Idbatterim

and the problem is that the current mooted rail link which would go to the airport is not a high speed link between the airport and the city centre, but a commuter line which is being used to serve the suburbs. not a bad thing itself, but not fulfilling what i believe was the original brief.

hang on even metro north revised, which I am critical on regarding certain aspects, the speed from city centre to airport will be more than acceptable. The inital joke to run it all on street to the airport, now that was beyond a joke...

the below link gives information on the joke luas on street via finglas proposal...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/proposed-airport-luas-service-route-too-slow-expert-warns-31159087.html

devnull

Matthew Gleeson wrote: »

Agree and the cost of those commuter rails are a joke here in Ireland. 60€ one way from Cork to Dublin. It's cheaper often to book a Ryanair flight to stansted and then on to Dublin. Doesn't take much longer either :P

Where can you get such flights? I'm looking at flights for today and they are a lot more than that? Comparing an advance purchase price of a flight with a pay on the day train ticket is not a valid comparison, train tickets are much cheaper when booked in advance, like with flights.

lxflyer wrote: »

As I said above the real problem that service had was the total lack of any hotels along the route or a major traffic generator such as a business park.

Agreed, I know there was lobbying for such a service by local politicians and the company were hesitant to start for some time but they eventually did but as you said because of the lack of hotels and other traffic generators on route, it was always going to have a tough battle on it's hands although it was a very brave time to launch it, it was misguided.

Personally I was rather sad to see the service go but seeing the buses travelling around with so much thin air on board really made it very difficult to see how it could last. Dublin Coach at least have the benefit of traffic to/from Red Cow on their Dundrum service, but even it never seems to have huge loadings at the Dundrum end.

I've used the Dublin Coach service maybe 6 times and never saw more than 4-5 people going from Dublin Airport to Dundrum or the other way around. I'm not sure the Red Cow stops are of any help though, most of these passengers simply used to take other Dublin Coach services to the Red Cow rather than being new passengers, so I doubt if Dublin Coach cancelled the Dundrum service they'd lose much business. It would be a shame to see it go, but in it's current guise I can't see it staying.

Idbatterim

can I ask with this dublin coach, that goes from dundrum to airport. Does it leave stops before scheduled time?

I live a few minute walk from it, going to airport tomorrow, about to booking parking for ten nights though...

devnull

Normally a couple of minutes late, but get there a few minutes earlier just in case.

Chuchote

Really, we need some black taxi type service to cover the airport. Not to mention that we need another airport to the west of the city.

h57xiucj2z946q

Chuchote wrote: »

The 16 is pretty useless for the airport. I've got it a couple of times, but here are the problems:

• The early morning buses start too late, at 6.30, and are too unreliable; if the 6.30 bus doesn't come, the next one isn't till 7.30
• The late buses stop going beyond the city centre at half ten (as far as I can understand from the strange coding on the timetable http://www.dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/16-2/ )
• During rush hour, the buses can be held up in the city centre for up to 45 minutes

In the link you posted to the timetable, it shows that the Mon-Fri, the buses start at: 06:20
06:40, 07:00, 07:10, 07:20, 07:30, 07:35, 07:40, 07:50 etc..
The late buses depart city center at 23:30

LXFlyer

Idbatterim wrote: »

can I ask with this dublin coach, that goes from dundrum to airport. Does it leave stops before scheduled time?

I live a few minute walk from it, going to airport tomorrow, about to booking parking for ten nights though...

Not normally no - it waits.

But best to be there a little early just in case.

They have a real time app as well.

Idbatterim

thanks for the replies. Out of interest, do aircoach have a real time app?

schemingbohemia

Idbatterim wrote: »

thanks for the replies. Out of interest, do aircoach have a real time app?

Yes, not sure of how reliable it is though. I've used it before and it's not brilliant.

Zebra3

Chuchote wrote: »

Not to mention that we need another airport to the west of the city.

No, we don't. The one already there is enough.

Chuchote

Zebra3 wrote: »

No, we don't. The one already there is enough.

Mmm, that's why so many private jets use the small airfield to the west of the city already…

Vic_08

Chuchote wrote: »

Really, we need some black taxi type service to cover the airport. Not to mention that we need another airport to the west of the city.

Two things Dublin really doesn't need are more taxis and a second airport.

Chuchote wrote: »

Mmm, that's why so many private jets use the small airfield to the west of the city already…

And they can continue to do so, small aircraft are better separated from commercial anyway.

DUB can cater for considerable growth and there is always the possibility of a new runway and third terminal if necessary, we do not need a second commercial airport, Ireland has too many as it is.

Sam Russell

Vic_08 wrote: »

Two things Dublin really doesn't need are more taxis and a second airport.




And they can continue to do so, small aircraft are better separated from commercial anyway.

DUB can cater for considerable growth and there is always the possibility of a new runway and third terminal if necessary, we do not need a second commercial airport, Ireland has too many as it is.

But they do need a rail connection to that airport from the city centre.

The Clongriffin spur could be done quickly and relatively cheaply. The Dart Underground would increase its value by connecting through SSG and Heuston.

Metro North is also needed to provide connection for the airport workers and a link from Swords and the northside to the CC.

Calina

Vic_08 wrote: »

DUB can cater for considerable growth and there is always the possibility of a new runway and third terminal if necessary, we do not need a second commercial airport, Ireland has too many as it is.

This defines lack of joined up thinking though. Dublin Airport is reactively built rather than proactively built. It's not well laid out now and adding a third terminal to the mix wouldn't really improve matters as navigating from one terminal to the other is a bit of a pain already; there are long walks out to the gates usually used by Ryanair.

I'd argue the airport needs a radical new terminal building, from scratch, maybe elsewhere on the campus, and that the other two terminals be mothballed/demolished or whatever. But project managed better than a similar project in Berlin.

lucernarian

Calina wrote: »

This defines lack of joined up thinking though. Dublin Airport is reactively built rather than proactively built. It's not well laid out now and adding a third terminal to the mix wouldn't really improve matters as navigating from one terminal to the other is a bit of a pain already; there are long walks out to the gates usually used by Ryanair.

I'd argue the airport needs a radical new terminal building, from scratch, maybe elsewhere on the campus, and that the other two terminals be mothballed/demolished or whatever. But project managed better than a similar project in Berlin.

The purchasing of land for the second runway was the pinnicale of proactive planning and action done by a State-owned company in the last 30 years or more.

As for a justification that Dublin Airport is not fit for purpose, you cite longer walking times for passengers of a discount airline?

I could think of a hundred transport and infrastructure projects that would deserve money more.

Chuchote

Vic_08 wrote: »

Two things Dublin really doesn't need are more taxis and a second airport.

Taxis, yes, I agree.

But a small airport next to a redeveloped Clondalkin railway station and close to the M50 would allow people from the southside and from outside Dublin to fly in and out of the country without passing through the clogged mass that is the city centre.

@Calina, all planning in Ireland is reactive.

plodder

Chuchote wrote: »

Mmm, that's why so many private jets use the small airfield to the west of the city already…

That's one of the benefits which out weighs the enormous cost of running a private jet. Nothing to do with the argument in favour of a second airport. This idea of airports in every corner, as well as infrastructure spending being spread evenly across every constituency, has been the bane of this country's existence. What would Heathrow or LAX give for the green fields surrounding Dublin airport, where it can expand in the future? No brainer. Ireland needs only one decent sized airport, never mind Dublin city.

Chuchote

plodder wrote: »

That's one of the benefits which out weighs the enormous cost of running a private jet. Nothing to do with the argument in favour of a second airport. This idea of airports in every corner, as well as infrastructure spending being spread evenly across every constituency, has been the bane of this country's existence. What would Heathrow or LAX give for the green fields surrounding Dublin airport, where it can expand in the future? No brainer. Ireland needs only one decent sized airport, never mind Dublin city.

Not really, Plodder. We need Dublin Airport as the main airport for the city; we need another smaller airport that's easier to get to for a big group of travellers. The best place for this would be Clondalkin.

We're making a hames of providing transport to the existing airport from a very clogged-up city centre. A small airport next to an existing rail link and the main motorway would be very handy for business people nipping over to Paris or Brussels and families heading south for winter sun, and people coming in for treatment in Dublin hospitals.

Carawaystick

Chuchote wrote: »

Not to mention that we need another airport to the west of the city.

There already is.

Chuchote

Carawaystick wrote: »

There already is.

Heh, I mean another public airport. Love Weston, though

n97 mini

Carawaystick wrote: »

There already is.

And frustratingly close to a few train stations, but still too far away from them all.

Carawaystick

Chuchote wrote: »

Not really, Plodder. We need Dublin Airport as the main airport for the city; we need another smaller airport that's easier to get to for a big group of travellers. The best place for this would be Clondalkin.

We're making a hames of providing transport to the existing airport from a very clogged-up city centre. A small airport next to an existing rail link and the main motorway would be very handy for business people nipping over to Paris or Brussels and families heading south for winter sun, and people coming in for treatment in Dublin hospitals.

I don't know where to start with everything wrong here.
Firstly you can't build an airport in Clondalkin, because it would interfere with the Air Corps in Baldonnel.

I'm not sure Clondalkin is easier to get to than Collinstown.

I see no evidence that as we provide poor public transport to the existing airport, there will be better public transport to any new airport

Clondalkin is no nearer the city centre than Collinstown

I'm sure we should base our public transport decisions on those poor oppressed families heading away to spend their money abroad on winter sun holidays...


Back on Topic,
The reason we have bad public transport in Dublin was outlined by the FG langer on Primetime last night who objected to any increased public spending on Public transport and with his next breath claimed public transport in Dublin was terrible...

Sam Russell

Chuchote wrote: »

Heh, I mean another public airport. Love Weston, though

Baldonnel would be a good second airport. It is state owned and already has infrastructure - near the N7 and railway lines.

Just would mean the closure of Weston.

Chuchote

Sam Russell wrote: »

Baldonnel would be a good second airport. It is state owned and already has infrastructure - near the N7 and railway lines.

Just would mean the closure of Weston.

Why would it?

(And @Carawaystick, does our immense Air Corps actually need all that air space Surely the three propellor planes can make their way in between a few passenger jets?)

@Carawaystick is definitely right about the government attitude to public transport; same thing with cycling - Shane Ross cuts off the funding for decent cycling greenways that would take thousands of cycling commuters and leisure cyclists, and hires a new €80k media person who's written two Sindo articles complaining about how city centre cyclists supposedly endanger pedestrians.)

L1011

Chuchote wrote: »

Not to mention that we need another airport to the west of the city.

No, we absolutely don't.

Dublin Airport can be expanded to handle twice the current passenger load easily. It can have metro and rail links added.

A second airport will double the cost of provision of transport infrastructure. It will cause duplication of flights to destinations and cause an overall reduction in routes served (look at any mid-sized metro area with two airports to see this).

Just because Belfast has two airports does not mean Dublin has needs two - and should actually be a great example of the problems of having two. Both have rail lines adjacent but neither have proper stations; their one full-time US route requires tax breaks and massive subsidies to operate; they serve far less unique routes than would make sense for the size of the city - and passengers leak to Dublin constantly.

Chuchote

L1011 wrote: »

No, we absolutely don't.

Dublin Airport can be expanded to handle twice the current passenger load easily. It can have metro and rail links added.

A second airport will double the cost of provision of transport infrastructure. It will cause duplication of flights to destinations and cause an overall reduction in routes served (look at any mid-sized metro area with two airports to see this).

Just because Belfast has two airports does not mean Dublin has needs two - and should actually be a great example of the problems of having two. Both have rail lines adjacent but neither have proper stations; their one full-time US route requires tax breaks and massive subsidies to operate; they serve far less unique routes than would make sense for the size of the city - and passengers leak to Dublin constantly.

But Belfast is a little town, really. And surely we could learn from how they've done it wrong to do it right.

L1011

Chuchote wrote: »

But Belfast is a little town, really. And surely we could learn from how they've done it wrong to do it right.

Yes - you don't do it.

You duplicate costs, split flights, reduce destinations, destroy transfer traffic and get left with two crap airports. There is no way to "do it right" other than not.

Chuchote

L1011 wrote: »

Yes - you don't do it.

You duplicate costs, split flights, reduce destinations, destroy transfer traffic and get left with two crap airports. There is no way to "do it right" other than not.

Poor Paris! Charles de Gaulle, Orly, Beauvais, and for business, Le Bourget!

magicbastarder

just out of curiosity, i looked up passenger numbers of the london airports as a comparison:

LHR: 75m
STN: 22.5m
LGW: 40.3m
LCY: 4.3m

DUB:25m

however, it's worth noting that stansted is about 80km from heathrow as the crow flies, and gatwick is about 40km from heathrow.

i suspect you simply couldn't have two decent sized international airports 20km apart (as this would be the case with adding one in clondalkin) due to airspace issues.
the two belfast airports combined (about 25km apart) carry a total of about 7m passengers, so less than one third of dublin's current throughput.

LXFlyer

This is utter nonsense.

Dublin Airport with its second runway has more than enough capacity to cope with flights.

Having all of the flights operating into/out of Dublin facilitates transfer passengers and also centralises all support functions in one location.

We simply do not need a second airport - it is cloud cuckoo land thinking.

What we DO need is proper public transport to/from the existing airport - PSO bus services to locations across North Dublin would be a start.

magicbastarder

Chuchote wrote: »

Poor Paris! Charles de Gaulle, Orly, Beauvais, and for business, Le Bourget!

ah here; mullingar is closer to dublin than beauvais is to paris.

howiya

magicbastarder wrote: »

ah here; mullingar is closer to dublin than beauvais is to paris.

How about Dublin Knock instead of Ireland West Airport Knock?

L1011

Chuchote wrote: »

Poor Paris! Charles de Gaulle, Orly, Beauvais, and for business, Le Bourget!

Paris Metro area population is about 3 times the size of the population of the country here.

Dublin is too small for two airports.

magicbastarder

howiya wrote: »

How about Dublin Knock instead of Ireland West Airport Knock?

hey, it works for that city north hotel out near julianstown.

L1011

magicbastarder wrote: »

hey, it works for that city north hotel out near julianstown.

Airports have their own reality distortion field for naming that transcends even that. It even has an affect backwards - e.g. the "Airport" Hilton in Donaghmede, "Airport" Regency and chipper (of all things) in Whitehall, etc.

plodder

L1011 wrote: »

Yes - you don't do it.

You duplicate costs, split flights, reduce destinations, destroy transfer traffic and get left with two crap airports. There is no way to "do it right" other than not.

Yes, Belfast is the perfect example. One reasonable sized airport in the middle of nowhere, and another tiny landlocked one in the city. Dublin is fast becoming the main airport for NI too,

n97 mini

Belfast seems to do just fine with two airports.

I wouldn't mind seeing a 2nd airport in Dublin, but privately run, in competition with the DAA. That way there is choice, competition, and the consumer should ultimately benefit.

DUB must be the busiest airport in Europe that doesn't have a rail link, something that even a lot of small airports in the US have, a country which massively favours the car. The DAA fear there would be massive loss in revenue from all their car parks and don't want a rail link. If that was the case the true landing charges might be revealed, because at the moment they're being subsidised by so much car parking.

magicbastarder

a rail link would be a boon for me anyway, because i live close enough to the airport (right on one of the more favoured routes for metro north) that when i get into a taxi at the airport and give them my destination, i get a '****'s sake!' or similar typically - i live just far enough away from the airport to mean they won't be able to get back in time to get back into their slot.