Why is public transport in Dublin so bad?

devnull

Chuchote wrote: »

In general, Iarnród Eireann is much more helpful over the phone than online - either its baffling website or its Twitter account. Which isn't efficient for the business.

The phone is no use when it's not open when the trains are.

Twitter should be more efficient since one update can update many people.

Chuchote

I also don't understand the thinking behind having tickets double in price closer to the time of travel. Buses don't do this, why do trains?

Incidentally, closing all train lines except main lines is going to have a disastrous effect on many small towns (aka constituencies, ahem). I wonder if the politicians have factored this into their wizard plan.

devnull

Chuchote wrote: »

I also don't understand the thinking behind having tickets double in price closer to the time of travel. Buses don't do this, why do trains?

Actually such demand driven and yield base pricing has been becoming more and more popular, maybe not double but a number of bus operators in the state operate such systems, the same as airlines.

devnull

devnull wrote: »

Or simply have proper LED displays on platforms that show all this information rather than the crap ones Irish Rail have?

Theres a display in Heuston station which is meant to show information. Its had an error saying "winvnc.exe has encountered a problem and has had to close" for over a month.

Chuchote

devnull wrote: »

Actually such demand driven and yield base pricing has been becoming more and more popular, maybe not double but a number of bus operators in the state operate such systems, the same as airlines.

Not any bus I've ever taken. You wait for the Galway bus on the quays; it comes along and you hand up your fare. If the driver puts on his highwayman's mask and asks for double the amount you get off, walk along the quays or to Busáras and get one of the other buses. But it's simply never happened to me. The fare is the fare, and that's it.
By the way, Quakers were the ones who instituted set prices. Back in the day, stallholders didn't have prices, but bargained for the best they could get. Then the Quakers went into business, and started displaying prices, on which, it was understood by both sides, there was no leeway. The prices were fair and people knew where they were when they set out to buy, so the Quaker traders did extremely well. Other traders started adopting the same method, with equal success.

devnull

The displays outside Connolly Station haven't been working for a lot longer than that. Not that they provide much information, however, short of a time, destination and a platform.

You need something like this on a platform (last generation UK)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northyorkshire/content/images/2007/11/16/paris_gallery_1_353x470.jpg

That is kind of outdated now though since recently there is a new generation
http://static.progressivemediagroup.com/uploads/imagelibrary/nri/railway/clients/Infotec/details.jpg (versions of this exist on platforms too)

The latest even easier to understand is here:
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/write/MediaUploads/New_station_screens_at_City_Thameslink.jpg

devnull

Chuchote wrote: »

Not any bus I've ever taken. You wait for the Galway bus on the quays; it comes along and you hand up your fare. If the driver puts on his highwayman's mask and asks for double the amount you get off, walk along the quays or to Busáras and get one of the other buses. But it's simply never happened to me. The fare is the fare, and that's it.

All Bus Eireann tickets are cheaper online, as are Citylink, as are Aircoach, as are GoBus, are are GoBe and much more. This allows operators to plan capacity better as they know how many passengers are going to turn up, hence the discount, which also means that the chance of passengers being left behind is less. It also allows them to push passengers to lesser used services for lower prices creating a better passenger environment by spreading the load.

Whilst I acknowledge your point of view and the reasons you air it, it's operationally very naive and the simple fact is the reason companies offer discounts and yield based pricing is because of the fact it allows them to operate an operationally higher quality service and manages overcrowding and ensures that passengers are not left behind by flagging any possible issues before they occur.

Chuchote

devnull wrote: »

All Bus Eireann tickets are cheaper online, as are Citylink, as are Aircoach, as are GoBus, are are GoBe and much more. This allows operators to plan capacity better as they know how many passengers are going to turn up, hence the discount, which also means that the chance of passengers being left behind is less. It also allows them to push passengers to lesser used services for lower prices creating a better passenger environment by spreading the load.

Whilst I acknowledge your point of view and the reasons you air it, it's operationally very naive and the simple fact is the reason companies offer discounts and yield based pricing is because of the fact it allows them to operate an operationally higher quality service and manages overcrowding and ensures that passengers are not left behind by flagging any possible issues before they occur.

You can buy a ticket online while standing in the queue.

Having your customers like and trust you would provide the best operational efficiency, if you want your business to survive.

howiya

devnull wrote: »

All Bus Eireann tickets are cheaper online, as are Citylink, as are Aircoach, as are GoBus, are are GoBe and much more. This allows operators to plan capacity better as they know how many passengers are going to turn up, hence the discount, which also means that the chance of passengers being left behind is less. It also allows them to push passengers to lesser used services for lower prices creating a better passenger environment by spreading the load.

Whilst I acknowledge your point of view and the reasons you air it, it's operationally very naive and the simple fact is the reason companies offer discounts and yield based pricing is because of the fact it allows them to operate an operationally higher quality service and manages overcrowding and ensures that passengers are not left behind by flagging any possible issues before they occur.

The point Chuchote originally made was that bus companies don't double the price for walk up fares. As an example you will save €2 by booking a Dublin-Cork return online with Aircoach. €22 online versus €24 cash

Yes bus companies offer discounts and use yield based pricing but they don't have the neck to ask for double the fare just because you didn't book online a few days ago like Irish Rail do.

devnull

Chuchote wrote: »

You can buy a ticket online while standing in the queue.

Most operators have a cut off point for such tickets and if they don't they charge the same price as walk up.

Having your customers like and trust you would provide the best operational efficiency, if you want your business to survive.

I agree that having your customers like and trust you would be the best operational system, that is why they take advance bookings, so they can know in advance the level of capacity that is required and ensure that is arranged in the most cost effective and passenger friendly way. If they do not have this information it's guesswork and with a city of Dublin's size and the number of events going on, both in Dublin and at the other routes, the loads can be highly variable outside Friday and Sunday nights.

The piece of mind knowing that the operator knows you will be there and will ensure they have adequate capacity to cater for you would be key to any passenger knowing that they could trust and like the company they are about to travel with. I would far rather pay in advance and know I have a seat than worry in a line about if I can get on the bus o not because there is a group of 80 people who are waiting compared to 30 the week before who the operator had no idea about and they only have one 49 seater bus and it's the last one of the day.

So tell me, how many people are going to turn up for a specific bus at 2pm from Dublin to cork next Thursday, what size bus should we use, how many reliefs should we have and should we have a standby driver for this service, the one an hour early or an hour later and what effect will this have on the return journey, will that run empty and lose the company money? How many hours pay will we waste on a driver who may or may not be needed just to sit by just in case because you have no idea if he or she will actually be needed or not?

What you are basically saying is passengers should be left by the roadside and unable to get home for the night because you feel that they should not be able to prepare for any spike in loads which they may not see as forthcoming. Failing to prepare is preparing to fail, the companies who are operating such a system are choosing to prepare to ensure that the customers are able to get on the bus by ensuring there is adequate capacity to meet demand for their services.

The problem with not having yield based pricing is that everyone may want to travel at the same time and that creates huge inefficiency in operations, because in essence you'd be running a large percentage of your fleet and drivers for a few hours a week that sit idle for the rest of the week and run back the other direction empty because there is no demand there for them to be in service at any one time. This is why things like peak and off-peak tickets exist.

It's not a proper way to run a business and you would have to have a huge rise in ticket prices way above what they are now to pay for it or a service which operates a far worse timetable and suffers from overcrowding and people being left behind. It also helps to drum up extra trade by reducing prices on off-peak services that may otherwise not get passengers on them.

devnull

howiya wrote: »

The point Chuchote originally made was that bus companies don't double the price for walk up fares. As an example you will save €2 by booking a Dublin-Cork return online with Aircoach. €22 online versus €24 cash

Aircoach is actually from €20-€24 return online depending on time of booking vs €24 cash.

You have to realise as well that a bus and train are very different vehicles and one has the possibility of adding a relief vehicle whereas the second one does not and that has to be worked into the calculations.

The simple fact is that if you don't want to pay walk up fares, don't pay for them. Not like someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to buy them on the day or they will kill you.

Yes bus companies offer discounts and use yield based pricing but they don't have the neck to ask for double the fare just because you didn't book online a few days ago like Irish Rail do.

What about flights? What about trains in other countries? Nobody is forcing you to pay the walk up fare. People moan about fares in the UK but barely anyone pays a walk up fare there, the trouble is in Ireland people have paid walk up fares for so long that they want to continue doing it, it's become a habit and some people are hell bent on doing the same. Many countries bus operators now only take advance bookings and no walk ups to provide a better standard of customer service. I can imagine that hell would break loose if that happened here.

These same people then moan that the prices are too high. Every time I see people moaning about prices here in Ireland they mention walk up ones and how they have been ripped off and when they are told there are ways to save money and cheaper options they just block their ears and cover their eyes and pretend they didn't hear and carry on in their rant. If people had a choice to avoid paying such fares, but decided not to, that that is their problem.

Chuchote

devnull wrote: »

The simple fact is that if you don't want to pay walk up fares, don't pay for them.

…or just take the bus, as increasing numbers do, which is why train usage is declining.

As for packed trains needing relief carriages: the number of packed trains I've been on recently would be… 0.

The only time trains are really packed is at rush hour to commuter towns, which is easily planned for in advance.

howiya

devnull wrote: »

Aircoach is actually from €20-€24 return online depending on time of booking vs €24 cash.

You have to realise as well that a bus and train are very different vehicles and one has the possibility of adding a relief vehicle whereas the second one does not and that has to be worked into the calculations.

The simple fact is that if you don't want to pay walk up fares, don't pay for them. Not like someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to buy them on the day or they will kill you.



What about flights? What about trains in other countries? Nobody is forcing you to pay the walk up fare. People moan about fares in the UK but barely anyone pays a walk up fare there, the trouble is in Ireland people have paid walk up fares for so long that they want to continue doing it, it's become a habit and some people are hell bent on doing the same. Many countries bus operators now only take advance bookings and no walk ups to provide a better standard of customer service. I can imagine that hell would break loose if that happened here.

These same people then moan that the prices are too high. Every time I see people moaning about prices here in Ireland they mention walk up ones and how they have been ripped off and when they are told there are ways to save money and cheaper options they just block their ears and cover their eyes and pretend they didn't hear and carry on in their rant. If people had a choice to avoid paying such fares, but decided not to, that that is their problem.

Thank you. I've never spotted the difference between a bus and a train before.

The real reason Aircoach don't demand €40-€48 from you as a walk up fare is because they'd lose your custom to Bus Eireann/GoBe/Dublin Coach etc. A concept Irish rail don't seem to grasp.

This is the point originally made but you've drifted off on tangents saying that they're right to do it and others do it so it's ok. Meanwhile we're reading another thread about Irish Rail not having enough money

devnull

Chuchote wrote: »

…or just take the bus, as increasing numbers do, which is why train usage is declining.

This might be the case in Ireland, but in the UK the reverse is true despite the fact that the difference between advance purchase tickets and walk up tickets is even bigger there. Why do we have the problem of not wanting to book in advance but the UK does not? Because of the fact people are too stuck in their ways here and dislike change.

As for packed trains needing relief carriages: the number of packed trains I've been on recently would be… 0.

If you want a public transport system which only runs at peak hours and little else, by all means do away with yield based pricing, because that would be the end result. The idea with yield based pricing is to spread the load and to make sure that some trains are not overcrowded and others are not totally empty because that is not a sustainable business model.

The only time trains are really packed is at rush hour to commuter towns, which is easily planned for in advance.

And tell me, are the prices of trains around this time on IrishRail.ie more expensive or less expensive than during the middle of the day or at a weekend? Also if the prices were at their cheapest here what effect do you think this might have on loading of these trains and the off peak trains?

devnull

howiya wrote: »

Thank you. I've never spotted the difference between a bus and a train before.

You are the one who keeps comparing a train to a bus, not me.

Speaking of which....

The real reason Aircoach don't demand €40-€48 from you as a walk up fare is because they'd lose your custom to Bus Eireann/GoBe/Dublin Coach etc. A concept Irish rail don't seem to grasp.

Operating a train service is very different to operating a bus service it runs along tracks which require signalling, dispatch staff and can only go where the tracks take it, the paths allow and is restricted by infrastructure far more than a bus which can run on any road at any time it wants at short notice and hop across roads, lanes etc at it's free desire.

A better comparison is a plane. It can only go where air traffic control allow it and where paths and slots are available that have to be agreed well in advance. They cannot just provide an extra flight a day before the flight is due to leave and is restricted by infrastructure.

Look at a price of a flight today and again in the morning, is the price a little or a lot higher?

howiya

devnull wrote: »

You are the one who keeps comparing a train to a bus, not me.

Speaking of which....



Operating a train service is very different to operating a bus service it runs along tracks which require signalling, dispatch staff and can only go where the tracks take it, the paths allow and is restricted by infrastructure far more than a bus which can run on any road at any time it wants at short notice and hop across roads, lanes etc at it's free desire.

A better comparison is a plane. It can only go where air traffic control allow it and where paths and slots are available that have to be agreed well in advance. They cannot just provide an extra flight a day before the flight is due to leave and is restricted by infrastructure.

Look at a price of a flight today and again in the morning, is the price a little or a lot higher?

If you don't understand that Irish Rail are in competition with the bus operators then it's not worth continuing. Which airline is Irish Rail in competition with?

LXFlyer

howiya wrote: »

If you don't understand that Irish Rail are in competition with the bus operators then it's not worth continuing. Which airline is Irish Rail in competition with?

So if you reduce fares dramatically, how would you fill the inevitable drop in farebox revenue?

This is a funding issue - for IE to remain solvent they cannot risk large drops in farebox revenue.

People want good public transport yet if they are asked to pay for it either through fares or higher taxes to fund increased levels of PSO subsidy they baulk at the prospect.

Running a railway is not cheap - comparing it with running a bus operator is a nonsense. IE have to maintain the infrastructure as well as operate the service.

howiya

lxflyer wrote: »

So if you reduce fares dramatically, how would you fill the inevitable drop in farebox revenue?

This is a funding issue - for IE to remain solvent they cannot risk large drops in farebox revenue.

People want good public transport yet if they are asked to pay for it either through fares or higher taxes to fund increased levels of PSO subsidy they baulk at the prospect.

Running a railway is not cheap - comparing it with running a bus operator is a nonsense. IE have to maintain the infrastructure as well as operate the service.

I know it's not cheap. All the more reason to fill seats.

The original comparison made between IE and say Aircoach was that IE will charge multiples of a fare for somebody deciding to get the train today. Aircoach don't.

If the potential customer is making a decision solely based on price then IE will never win.

If on the other hand they are like the poster EOTR that prefers the comfort of the train then they will win the business regardless of the price.

The question is are there enough EOTRs out there to pay the €80 to make up for the €20-€30 fares they have lost due to the price point. Threads about IE not having enough money would suggest there isn't.

To answer your question about reducing fares dramatically and the effect on farebox revenue, Irish Rail already do this if you are willing to book in advance.

Lower fares may stimulate demand. A risk they're willing to take in advance when they have something to lose ie potential passengers that may be willing to pay more.

On the day of departure they won't risk seats that will most likely remain empty if there is a competitive bus alternative.

Perhaps the real reason why they can't offer competitive walk up fares between Dublin and Cork is because there is no incentive to offer such fares to people boarding in Thurles who don't have the bus connectivity that exists between Dublin and Cork.

Idbatterim

I just read an article titled "Time to get Irish rail service priorities back on track" link below. An extract below, we had 106 million to build this farce and not for enabling works on dublin underground?!

"Then we have the Western Rail Corridor. The first phase between Ennis and Athenry cost €106.5 million to build, and opened in 2010. Six years on and it’s thought to be only hitting about half of the 200,000 a year in passengers originally projected. It’s a white elephant."

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/time-to-get-irish-rail-service-priorities-back-on-track-1.2843329

LXFlyer

howiya wrote: »

I know it's not cheap. All the more reason to fill seats.

The original comparison made between IE and say Aircoach was that IE will charge multiples of a fare for somebody deciding to get the train today. Aircoach don't.

If the potential customer is making a decision solely based on price then IE will never win.

If on the other hand they are like the poster EOTR that prefers the comfort of the train then they will win the business regardless of the price.

The question is are there enough EOTRs out there to pay the €80 to make up for the €20-€30 fares they have lost due to the price point. Threads about IE not having enough money would suggest there isn't.

To answer your question about reducing fares dramatically and the effect on farebox revenue, Irish Rail already do this if you are willing to book in advance.

Lower fares may stimulate demand. A risk they're willing to take in advance when they have something to lose ie potential passengers that may be willing to pay more.

On the day of departure they won't risk seats that will most likely remain empty if there is a competitive bus alternative.

Perhaps the real reason why they can't offer competitive walk up fares between Dublin and Cork is because there is no incentive to offer such fares to people boarding in Thurles who don't have the bus connectivity that exists between Dublin and Cork.

Reducing walk up fares to the advance levels would risk a negative impact on farebox revenues - that's the bottom line.

The walk up fares are set by the NTA at such a level to provide the company with funding to maintain operations.

Reducing them would mean there would have to be increased PSO funding.

This isn't something you can take a chance on - it is maintaining the finances of the railway - you can't just take a potshot and hope for the best.

Providing decent high quality public transport costs money - none of the PSO funding is at a level that will facilitate that - the CEO of the NTA is on the record as saying precisely that.

devnull

howiya wrote: »

If you don't understand that Irish Rail are in competition with the bus operators then it's not worth continuing. Which airline is Irish Rail in competition with?

I never said that they are not in competition with the bus operators, I simply said that operating a bus and a train is very different operationally, the later is far more restricted than the former and because of that the different costs and differences of business models are huge, the reason the buses are priced the way they are is down to the costs of operating said buses and the ability to have a higher level of flexibility to meet demand and the fact they have a lot more freedom due to the nature of operating a bus service on roads versus a train which operates on fixed rails on what is mostly a two track network.

A bus can go anywhere it wants in the whole country. A train can only go where the tracks take it and the infrastructure allows it in a fixed capacity as provided by the train and because of that this has to be reflected in the pricing. Operationally providing a bus service and a train service is very different.

howiya wrote: »

I know it's not cheap. All the more reason to fill seats.

Growing passenger numbers doesn't automatically mean you have more money. There is a tipping point like with attendances at football matches. For example a club which a friend works at makes more money with 19,000 in the stadium in the last year than with 23,000 in the stadium. Why? Because of the fact that dropping the prices to get the highest attendance actually results in the club getting less money than less people at a higher price point. Maximising passenger numbers rarely means you maximise revenue.

The original comparison made between IE and say Aircoach was that IE will charge multiples of a fare for somebody deciding to get the train today. Aircoach don't.[/qupte]

Aircoach is a bus operator
Irish Rail is a train operator

Again if you compared two bus operators and two rail operators I agree. But you don't. As I said before a plane is a more accurate comparison than a bus with a train. A bus doesn't require a lot of infrastructure to operate, a train and a plane do.

If the potential customer is making a decision solely based on price then IE will never win.

Of course, who'd have thought maintaining infrastructure, tracks, trains, paying staff and for the upkeep of stations would be more expensive than just paying for a bus and a driver. The simple fact is that a train is more expensive than a bus because of the fact it costs more to operate a train than a bus. There's no conspiracy theory here, that is just the way it is.

This is not an Ireland only situation as well, in general buses are always cheaper than trains, they are also slower in the vast majority of cases with a proper developed railway infrastructure, Ireland doesn't have that, which may mask this point somewhat, for example in the UK I wouldn't dream of taking a bus over a train, but in Ireland it's very different. The buses are also much cheaper than walk up train tickets there too.

If on the other hand they are like the poster EOTR that prefers the comfort of the train then they will win the business regardless of the price.

The question is are there enough EOTRs out there to pay the €80 to make up for the €20-€30 fares they have lost due to the price point. Threads about IE not having enough money would suggest there isn't.

Part of that is down to the fact that quite frankly, the bus wins over the train so often in Ireland, because the train infrastructure is poor, journey times are long and timetables and information provided are not great, it has little to do with prices, the fact people are unhappy with the prices is a symptom of the overall fact that the railway services are not much faster than the bus and are not regular or adequate enough. Not the fact that the prices themselves are too high, just the value for money is bad in view of the poor services.

To answer your question about reducing fares dramatically and the effect on farebox revenue, Irish Rail already do this if you are willing to book in advance.

Which is quota controlled and if you have noticed, these lowest price fares are never avaliable on rush hour trains. They are only on trains where they know there will be lots of spare capacity, so it attracts additional customers for the most part rather than reducing the price that existing customers pay. What LXFlyer I believe was pointing out is that a blanket reduction would lower prices for existing passengers also, which would reduce farebox revenue overall, versus adding customers who would not already travel.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

Aircoach is actually from €20-€24 return online depending on time of booking vs €24 cash.

You have to realise as well that a bus and train are very different vehicles and one has the possibility of adding a relief vehicle whereas the second one does not and that has to be worked into the calculations.

The simple fact is that if you don't want to pay walk up fares, don't pay for them. Not like someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to buy them on the day or they will kill you.



What about flights? What about trains in other countries? Nobody is forcing you to pay the walk up fare. People moan about fares in the UK but barely anyone pays a walk up fare there, the trouble is in Ireland people have paid walk up fares for so long that they want to continue doing it, it's become a habit and some people are hell bent on doing the same. Many countries bus operators now only take advance bookings and no walk ups to provide a better standard of customer service. I can imagine that hell would break loose if that happened here.

These same people then moan that the prices are too high. Every time I see people moaning about prices here in Ireland they mention walk up ones and how they have been ripped off and when they are told there are ways to save money and cheaper options they just block their ears and cover their eyes and pretend they didn't hear and carry on in their rant. If people had a choice to avoid paying such fares, but decided not to, that that is their problem.

but not everyone can book in advance. the railway must be a turn up and go service.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

but not everyone can book in advance. the railway must be a turn up and go service.

Nobody is forced to book in Advance, they just get a cheaper fare for doing so. Maybe planes should be a turn up and go service with a flat price. how about €300 Dublin to London, it worked for so many years, so why not bring it back? Everyone paid the same then.

A fully turn-up and go service with no advance bookings on any transport system is operationally a nightmare and leads to far worse overcrowding than you can believe. I have been cities where this used to be use and it was not uncommon to fit about 300 people in a 3 hour train ride in a carriage the size of a DART carriage during peak time.

Meanwhile two hours later a train was completely empty apart from half a dozen people. Using a yield management system and demand led pricing avoids this and allows a more comfortable service for all passengers by pushing people to less crowded trains, therefore balancing the load, reducing delays and providing a more consistent level of service.

Carawaystick

end of the road wrote: »

but not everyone can book in advance. the railway must be a turn up and go service.

In Dublin, you can't book any train service, every service is a turn up and go...


Re uk train services, the Bus service to Derry or Dublin from Belfast is better than the train.

Dyr

The low density thing is one of the great nonsense cliches of irish public life. it's up there with quoting "maidens dancing at crossroads".

One thing to note about dublins density is dublins bus think the best idea for linking the suburbs is to funnel commuters into the city centre and then back out in the direction from whence they came. Because that square mile doesn't have enough traffic obviously

Bambi

Bambi wrote: »

The low density thing is one of the great nonsense cliches of irish public life. it's up there with quoting "maidens dancing at crossroads".

How would you back that up? The sheer number of 2 story houses in Dublin 2 would be a very strange sight in the city centre of a city with high density.

Dyr

Deleted User wrote: »

How would you back that up? The sheer number of 2 story houses in Dublin 2 would be a very strange sight in the city centre of a city with high density.

http://irishcycle.com/2015/11/03/is-dublin-a-low-density-city/

Chuchote

There's a big difference between giving you a quid off if you book online (most bus companies) and doubling the fare close to the date (many Iarnrod Eireann fares).

LXFlyer

Chuchote wrote: »

There's a big difference between giving you a quid off if you book online (most bus companies) and doubling the fare close to the date (many Iarnrod Eireann fares).

IE aren't doubling the fare. The online fares are discounted. There is a difference here and it is an important one. The lower online fares are generally available on more lightly used services to stimulate demand.

Once again the walk-up fares are set by the NTA at a level to ensure the company's financial survival. This is fundamentally a funding issue. Walk-up fares and season tickets still account for the lions share of tickets sold - hence they are critical to the company's finances.

Reducing the walk-up fares means that the PSO subsidy would have to significantly increase, meaning increased government expenditure - now how is that going to be funded?

Are people prepared to pay higher taxes for better services? I suspect that they are not.

Carawaystick

Do IÉ have to charge the full walk up fare the nta determines?

If not, then there's a case for selling tickets on services they know are not full at a reduced fare, to compete with coach competition. There is negligible extra cost to IÉ in carrying an extra passenger on a half full train, so it's better to get some money in rather than see sit go to the coach company.

They could sell an open ticket at full face value, or a ticket for a specific service at a reduced rate for walk up customers.

hmmm

Where is the incentive to the state operators to provide a better service? Serious question.

If you can coast through life, provide the same service you have for years and still get paid, where is the incentive? The last thing you want to do is stick your neck out and introduce change, or god forbid, make a mistake, because that is the only thing that can cost you your job. No-one seriously believes a government would ever let a public transport operator go bust, or force employees to lose their job - they'll inevitably be bailed out.

The NTA at least are trying to publish statistics, but without competition and the threat of losing your job because of failing to compete, there is little or no real incentive to change anything. It's just the way life is. The example of the car industry in Eastern Europe is often used as an example of a state system - the same car models were built for 30 years because there was no incentive to take chances or do anything different.

devnull

Carawaystick wrote: »

If not, then there's a case for selling tickets on services they know are not full at a reduced fare, to compete with coach competition.

That is what they do with advance purchase tickets. They don't do it with walk up because of the fact it could have a catastrophic effect on revenue.

An example:

An Irish Rail train currently sells 100 walk up tickets a day @ €60 = €6000 revenue
An Irish Rail train sells 100 walk up tickets a day @ €20 = €2000 in revenue.

Irish Rail must find 200 passengers a day for that train, just to break even compared to the old fare system. Considering there is less than half that traveling by coach between Dublin and Cork per hour, that's a tall order and would result in a catastrophic impact on farebox revenue and the company would either need greater funding or reduction of services to keep in business.

There is negligible extra cost to IÉ in carrying an extra passenger on a half full train, so it's better to get some money in rather than see sit go to the coach company.

It's not about the costs of carrying extra passengers that is the problem, it's the effect on effectively self harming themselves by dramatically reducing the venue from existing passengers at the same time.

But will the money gained from that be more or less than the money lost from people who would normally buy the full price tickets now buying the cheaper tickets which would be a lot cheaper? This is why the current system is in place, not many companies are going to take that kind of risk with revenue, especially one that is in a poor state as Irish Rail is.

You can't look at these extra passengers in isolation, you have to look at what the changes to pricing will do to the revenue from existing customers who now may be giving you less money because they are taking advantage of this too. It's a very simplistic view to look at coach vs train and just compare the prices and saying more pax = more money, it's not that simple.

You can't look at the extra passengers who are going to coach companies in isolation, you have to look at the effect it would have on overall revenue on that particular service and if it would lead to passengers who used to pay full fare who would use the train anyway, giving you less revenue also which means actually lowering the fare has meant that the service might lose even more money than before even with higher passenger numbers.

Chuchote

On the other hand, the pile-em-high, sell-em-cheap model works for passengers too. If Irish Rail, or rather Iarnród Eireann, were selling tickets for a good price on the day, far more people would choose the train - it's usually more pleasant to travel by train than by bus.
But since the train is unfeasibly expensive for that impulse buy, they turn away and get the bus; next time they travel, they'll think of the bus first.

devnull

That's a very simplistic way of looking at it unfortunately it is not as simple as that in reality. Maximum possible passengers will never achieve maximum possible revenue because if for example, you cut walk-up prices in half, you then have to double the passenger numbers to bring in the same amount of revenue, minus anyone who switched from advance to walk up.

However an even bigger danger with cutting prices too much is commuting what I call yield suicide. That is when you are unhappy with your passenger numbers as you believe your competitors are having a too bigger share of the market and are attracting more customers than you so you go into a huge price cut to undercut them or make massive price reductions in the hope this takes the market from them.

The opposition, knowing that they have highly performing, profitable bus services with lots of loyal customers, counter the moverment the following day by lowering their prices still. The end result? The bus companies keep their passengers and revenue, at lower profit margins, Irish Rail's farebox income drops massively without gaining any extra passengers, meanwhile if they rise prices they will have even less customers than before the price cut and if they lower them they will make a catastrophic financial situation worse.

Think I'm clutching at straws? Look what happened with Aircoach and GoBE. Aircoach happily ran an express service at €15 single and €22 return and was doing very well and growing business. GoBE came in and struggled at first to get a hold of the market at prices the same as Aircoach. A few months in they had the idea to go aggressive on a price war. They discounted tickets to €10 single to win customers from Aircoach. A few hours later Aircoach responded. €9 single. Aircoach carried on filling coaches at €9 whilst GoBe could only manage single figure passengers at €10 that previously they were getting €15 from.

GoBe essentially killed their own financial viability by pricing too low in the hope of winning business. Their income per passenger dropped by approx 30% overnight with no increase in passenger numbers. In the end they were forced to cut services and increase prices and retreat with the tail between their legs whilst Aircoach expanded and continued to grow their service. The irony of it all? If GoBe didn't try and undercut Aircoach so much in the first place, they'd probably never have had to do it.

My point is, at the end of the day, yields are the most important thing in operating a transport service in a financially prudent way, not passenger numbers or having the lowest prices.

Carawaystick

devnull wrote: »

That is what they do with advance purchase tickets. They don't do it with walk up because of the fact it could have a

My question was are IÉ permitted to charge less by the nta.

LXFlyer

Carawaystick wrote: »

My question was are IÉ permitted to charge less by the nta.

Not for walk-up tickets. They have to charge the approved fares as per the fare determination.

They can only offer reduced fares for online sales (but I understand the NTA do have some say on these too), or special trains (which by their nature are commercial).

Chuchote

What is the comparison between a train full of people, a bus full of people and a group of separate people in cars, in terms of pollution and environmental impact?

I ask in the context of a family of three living in the midlands; the three used to take the train together to work and school, and home that evening. Now they drive, sometimes alone, sometimes together.

I would prefer them to have fold-up bicycles and take the train; I suspect that they'd do so if the fare were more affordable.

Carawaystick

A train full of people is by far the least comfortable way to travel, with passengers squashed up against other passengers... Most trains aren't full though.

NiallBoo

Carawaystick wrote: »

A train full of people is by far the least comfortable way to travel, with passengers squashed up against other passengers... Most trains aren't full though.

I'd take a packed train over a packed bus any day.

Chuchote

NiallBoo wrote: »

I'd take a packed train over a packed bus any day.

Me too. I love trains. You can wander around, you can use the table for a bit of work (or to watch a film), people chat to each other and even if you don't want to chat you can have a great time eavesdropping, they serve snacks and tay, you get a much nicer view of the countryside and can go "Oooh, lots of solar panels around here" and "wow, that's a fancy skateboard move in that garden", the people are much more interesting - on my last trip to Galway there was a semi-employed actor behind me, French and an American film crew beside me and a bunch of women returning from a sportive up a bit on the other side.

devnull

Thankfully buses don't operate on inter-urban or intercity travel, coaches do, and they feature no standing so everyone gets a seat.

devnull

Chuchote wrote: »

Me too. I love trains. You can wander around, you can use the table for a bit of work (or to watch a film), people chat to each other and even if you don't want to chat you can have a great time eavesdropping, they serve snacks and tay, you get a much nicer view of the countryside and can go "Oooh, lots of solar panels around here"

You can do all that on a packed train? What you talk about is possible if the train is not packed, but you quoted someone who was comparing a packed bus to a packed train so you are being a little mischievous here in the way you are taking quotes out of context to suit your point.

Since that was what the poster you quoted was talking about. On a packed train you cannot waner around and you cannot use the table because you will be standing and you will not be able to get through to the buffet and the trolley will not be able to come true.

Now I'm not saying the train is not a good way to travel, it is and I use it if I have to go to Limerick, but unfortunately the level of service and infrastructure for train services in this country are not good enough and it's because of that they struggle with competition from the buses. If the train was twice as quick as the bus, the complaints about the price would be far less.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

Thankfully buses don't operate on inter-urban or intercity travel, coaches do, and they feature no standing so everyone gets a seat.

a coach is a bus. yes obviously it's different internally to a city bus but it's still a type of bus.

devnull

If we're going to use that kind of analogy, then it's okay to call a tram a train too?

Chuchote

devnull wrote: »

You are being a little mischievous here in the way you are taking quotes out of context to suit your point.

Kindly do not make assumptions. I am not doing anything of the sort.

On a packed train you cannot waner around and you cannot use the table because you will be standing and you will not be able to get through to the buffet and the trolley will not be able to come true.

I was describing a packed train, where all seats are occupied. You are describing a train where people are illegally standing in the corridors, surely?

LXFlyer

Eh, there are no legal restrictions on how many people can stand on a train and frequently peak hour Intercity services are full and standing throughout.

Talking about people standing illegally is utter nonsense.

devnull

Chuchote wrote: »

Kindly do not make assumptions. I am not doing anything of the sort. I was describing a packed train, where all seats are occupied.

I do not call a packed train one where all seats are occupied. I'm sorry if you do but I think the majority of people who travel on packed trains who commute to Dublin would disagree with your definition of what packed trains are.

You are describing a train where people are illegally standing in the corridors, surely?

Are you really suggesting that standing on a train is illegal?

There are a large number of people on 29k trains every day standing and there are also some services where this is the case on 22k train sets. If this was illegal there are a lot of people breaking the law every day..

HivemindXX

devnull wrote: »

I do not call a packed train one where all seats are occupied. I'm sorry if you do but I think the majority of people who travel on packed trains who commute to Dublin would disagree with your definition of what packed trains are.

You can think what you want. However we don't have to swallow your No True Scotsman argument. Trying to claim that if you can move on the train it's not really a 'packed' train merely a full or crowded one is pretty feeble.

My own experience on trains matches Chucote's far more than your dark dystopian fantasy version. The last time I experienced the type of thing you talking about is more than 20 years ago. Would you care to hazard a guess as to the percentage of inter city trains that have this crammed in unable to move environment you describe? Are you claiming that on a train like this, even if they are extremely rare, the people who have seats (there must be 100s right?) don't have a table and a far more comfortable journey than someone jammed in to a seat on a coach?

L1011

lxflyer wrote: »

Eh, there are no legal restrictions on how many people can stand on a train .

Ridiculously.

At some point there will be severe injuries or deaths from compressive asphyxia on a train even if there's no train accident deaths from overcrowding. Heads in the RSC will roll then but they should have limits - proven by evacuation testing - already.

devnull

HivemindXX wrote: »

Trying to claim that if you can move on the train it's not really a 'packed' train merely a full or crowded one is pretty feeble.

That's great that you have a different opinion to me, but I believe a packed train is one where you cannot move because that is what my definition of packed is. But I agree that the definition of the word packed can get taken in different ways.

By the way, the very definition of full is containing or holding as much or as many as possible; having no empty space, so if the train was full you would not be able to move at all, although you seem to suggest that if a train is full, you can move on it, which the dictionary would disagree with because full means there is no space.

My own experience on trains matches Chucote's far more than your dark dystopian fantasy version. The last time I experienced the type of thing you talking about is more than 20 years ago.

Would you care to hazard a guess as to the percentage of inter city trains that have this crammed in unable to move environment you describe?

I've experienced it twice this year but I admit that was during busy times, I have heard of other people saying it happens reguarly, and lxflyer has outlined that it happens oftne or not and he would be far more familiar with the service than I would be. He has no reason to make it up, he has nothing to gain from it.

Are you claiming that on a train like this, even if they are extremely rare, the people who have seats (there must be 100s right?) don't have a table and a far more comfortable journey than someone jammed in to a seat on a coach?

If you want to be pedantic go right ahead, I can be as well.

Not every train seat has a table and sometimes there are commuter trains which run on intercity routes, some of the commuter sets which have far less comfort than the intercity sets for long journeys but still operate on intercity routes.

In addition some coaches on some routes operated by private operators have more legroom and space than the trains. I know that might not agree with your dark dystopian fantasy version of coach transport, but it's the truth.

The thing is, I'm actually a rail fan. I've very rarely took the bus over rail in other countries. The reason I do it in Ireland is because of the fact that the cost for the level of service we get here in Ireland is not that attractive compared to the bus for a large part, which is why the bus does so well in Ireland. I'd never dream of using the bus in England for long distance journeys. The train is always much much quicker even if the bus is cheaper.

If people just say it's because Irish Rail is too expensive that's not the route of the problem. The problem is that at the end of the day, the frequency and journey times and service hours are not vastly better than the coach, unlike in most other countries, therefore people are not going to pay the price IR are asking for a not very frequent service that is only a small fraction quicker.

We can discuss things until we are blue in the face about this, but at the end of the day the core issue with Irish Rail is journey times are not quick enough the infrastructure is poor and does not adequately allow for the services required which results in passenger numbers not being what they could be. If the train took half the time of the bus, there'd be far less arguing about rail tickets being expensive.

However people see €15 for a bus ticket to walk up that takes only 15 mins more than the train that costs €50 walk up, and it runs more often and they pick the bus simply because they feel that there is little benefit to taking the train. If the same passenger saw that the train took 2 hours and the bus took 4, they'd have a very different opinion.

But we can keep blaming it on high prices all we like, the simple fact is that money needs to be spent on infrastructure to improve services, until we as a country do that rail will never be reaching it's potential.