Why is public transport in Dublin so bad?

LXFlyer

Chivito550 wrote: »

It’s about 10 minutes. You wouldn’t have to do this in any other Western European capital. That’s my point. For example, I work on Harcourt St, roughly half way between Harcourt and Stephens green stops. I was heading out to Grand Canal dock area to meet some friends before U2 last Monday after work. It was quicker for me to walk 25 minutes, than it would have been to get public transport there. And this is 2 major areas pretty close to the centre of the city. The alternative was to get a bus on Camden St, and wait for a 1 or 77a, which are not very frequent. Because of the walk between LUAS and DART there was no purpose to getting a DART out. At least after the Cross City is done, the walk to Tara St (or Dawson to Pearse) will be about half that currently from Stephens Green to Pearse.

Emm, you could take the 15a or 15b from Camden Street to Grand Canal Dock directly (every 15 minutes).

Chivito550

lxflyer wrote: »

Emm, you could take the 15a or 15b from Camden Street to Grand Canal Dock directly (every 15 minutes).

Ahhh, you're right. I never thought about that bus. I sort of forgot about it as it crosses the Liffey, so slipped my mind that it actually finishes up again on the south side. Still reckon I'd have been quicker walking. It takes the scenic route.

filbert the fox

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect - you are missing the point.

Re the NTA - I was correcting your point regarding who was responsible - it is important to get that right.

As for a "chaotic network" - we've just gone through a complete network re-design - I'm not really sure what you're expecting.

As for ticketing, the issue of funding public transport is key to how it operates. Changing how the ticketing works will have an impact on fare box revenues. That will affect the company finances, which are all in a precarious state. Someone will end up paying for it.

Now I am sorry if that comes across as a "bureaucratic mindset", but I tend to think that ensuring that the companies are adequately financed is kind of important, given that they are operating essential services. And given our politicians have been cutting expenditure, maintaining fare box revenue has become even more important. I'm being realistic about this.

That's also why you can see that the moves towards fare structure simplification is done in such a phased manner. The NTA are trying to avoid any large shocks to the finances.

With regard to bus stops, you may happily give up a stop, but other people may have had to walk a distance to reach that stop from their homes. It's not as simple as just removing stops for the sake of it.

There are indeed stops that could be merged, but I'll repeat that they are far fewer than you might think. It's a city bus service - not an express service.

That's why I would be of the opinion there is scope for developing more peak hour Xpresso services and ultimately BRT rather than mass culling of bus stops.

I would always consider the causes of problems first before administering the medicine.

Why in the digital age is it so necessary for people to travel to work? I realise that there are unavoidable scenarios where one needs to be at one's workpoint but there must be scope to reduce the countless numbers commuting who could work locally/from home etc.

LXFlyer

Chivito550 wrote: »

Ahhh, you're right. I never thought about that bus. I sort of forgot about it as it crosses the Liffey, so slipped my mind that it actually finishes up again on the south side. Still reckon I'd have been quicker walking. It takes the scenic route.

There can't be buses covering every single possible trip directly.

Those buses serve the IFSC by operating that way, which I seem to recall you were complaining about not being connected to!

Also the 14 and 15 operate via Amiens Street which is within walking distance of the IFSC too.

MrMorooka

I took the 39a out to Clonsilla yesterday morning, and it was actually great. With no traffic on the road and not so many passengers around, from Aston Quay to just outside Ongar only took 40 minutes, if it was always that good I'd probably still be using it. The sad thing is it would be totally possible to replicate that journey time throughout the day/week, by increasing frequency/ cutting stops so there is less stopping, and proper bus lanes, signals and segregation so the bus shares no space with general traffic, at least until it reaches the quieter parts of the route in D15.

I then took the train back into town in the afternoon, and it was odd to note that our half empty commuter service was operated by a 4car 22k, while the 1600 Sligo train coming in the opposite direction seemed to be a 4car 29k.

cgcsb

MrMorooka wrote: »

proper bus lanes, signals and segregation so the bus shares no space with general traffic, at least until it reaches the quieter parts of the route in D15.

How would this be done in between Cabra and the City Centre?

Dyr

So if the luas is going down O'Connell Street how are the corporation going to close it every second weekend?

MrMorooka

cgcsb wrote: »

How would this be done in between Cabra and the City Centre?

With great difficulty

The NTA seems to think it was possible, it's in their BRT/Swiftway plans. I'd imagine it realistically involves a lot of CPOing of front gardens and tight restrictions on access. There is actually lots of space on most of the roads if you are willing to remove general traffic lanes.

EDIT: traffic is generally not too bad along the Old Cabra Rd route anyway, so that area could make do with lesser measures of segregation. The real issues are the Navan Road between Tesco and the Halfway House, then the whole area around the Blanchardstown Centre.

Mahogany

filbert the fox wrote: »

who could work locally/from home etc.

That's basically prison though.

syklops

Mahogany wrote: »

That's basically prison though.

Working from home is awesome.

MrMorooka

Working from home could work, but it requires a big cultural shift from employers an employees. Personally I'd hate it, in my mind the work location and the act of going to it puts my mind in the 'do work' mode, whereas the comfort of my own home is for fun and relaxation. Bear in mind too that people are socially conditioned from ~18 years of schooling into a 'go somewhere 9-5, do work' mindset, so breaking that is a big task.

From employers' side, a lot of managerial types still act on the 'if I can't see you at your desk typing/clicking you're not doing any work' mindset. Middle managers are probably terrified of a widescale push, because a company made up of independent and autonomous workers will have little need for the filler levels of supervisors and managers that hang around offices. Doesn't suit the extroverts who are great at playing the corporate game but not so great at actually doing something productive.

Dyr

MrMorooka wrote: »

Working from home could work, but it requires a big cultural shift from employers an employees.

Employer saves a fortune on heating, electricity, facilities etc

magicbastarder

ezra_pound wrote: »

But do you own a car?

i do. as i mentioned, it depends on the context.

collie0708

Don't use public transport often due to my commute taking twice as long due to poor connectivity. However got the red line luas today and it desperately needs more security as the amount of undesirables just hoping on and off with no tickets is crazy I was delighted to get of the thing. Just got onto the train and 2 junkies across from me having a few cans talking about how 1 of them in sue in court for breaking into houses 😡😡😡 wish I had brought the car

LXFlyer

MrMorooka wrote: »

Working from home could work, but it requires a big cultural shift from employers an employees. Personally I'd hate it, in my mind the work location and the act of going to it puts my mind in the 'do work' mode, whereas the comfort of my own home is for fun and relaxation. Bear in mind too that people are socially conditioned from ~18 years of schooling into a 'go somewhere 9-5, do work' mindset, so breaking that is a big task.

From employers' side, a lot of managerial types still act on the 'if I can't see you at your desk typing/clicking you're not doing any work' mindset. Middle managers are probably terrified of a widescale push, because a company made up of independent and autonomous workers will have little need for the filler levels of supervisors and managers that hang around offices. Doesn't suit the extroverts who are great at playing the corporate game but not so great at actually doing something productive.

It can work for some people, but speaking personally I'd miss the social interaction of actually working with people in an office.

There are of course jobs suited to it, but again working from home will certainly not suit an awful lot of people.

Dyr

Bray Head wrote: »

Here's a few brief answers to your questions:

Dublin Bus are incapable of implementing basic operational efficiencies such as fewer stops, time-based ticketing, a useable timetable and using middle doors. This could improve journey times by 10% to 30% at very little cost. Dublin Bus is the most used mode in Dublin. I really think that reform efforts should start with the bus network as this is where there is most bang for buck.

.

I'v always said that reintroducing conductors would solve most of dublin buses major drawbacks but it's too crazy an idea to ever happen.

end of the road

Bray Head wrote: »

Dublin Bus are incapable of implementing basic operational efficiencies such as fewer stops, time-based ticketing, a useable timetable and using middle doors. This could improve journey times by 10% to 30% at very little cost.

in fairness dublin bus wouldn't have a say over the amount of stops. if they try remove stops the backclash would probably make such a plan not worth the bother. the middle doors are a problem due to some of the stops and spaces not being set up for it, i hope that will change. isn't time-based ticketing being implemented? what would you consider a usable timetable?

NiallBoo

Couldn't time-based ticketing potentially be a disincentive to improving service?

Chivito550

NiallBoo wrote: »

Couldn't time-based ticketing potentially be a disincentive to improving service?

Yeh what's the appeal of time based ticketing? If you spend 60 minutes on a bus, through horrific traffic you pay more than on a quiet Friday morning where you fly in in 35 minutes. That is utterly stupid.

Why can't we just implement "touch on, touch off" like with the LUAS? Have standard public transport zones (not different ones for buses, LUAS and trains). If you touch on in zone 4, and get off in zone 4, you pay less, than if you touch off in zone 2. If you forget to touch off, you pay the maximum fare. Simple.

end of the road

MrMorooka wrote: »

I then took the train back into town in the afternoon, and it was odd to note that our half empty commuter service was operated by a 4car 22k, while the 1600 Sligo train coming in the opposite direction seemed to be a 4car 29k.

i'm afraid operating long distance stock on suburban services which they cannot cope with, while operating suburban stock on long distance services which don't justify the capacity, is the irish rail way.

thomasj

MrMorooka wrote:

EDIT: traffic is generally not too bad along the Old Cabra Rd route anyway, so that area could make do with lesser measures of segregation. The real issues are the Navan Road between Tesco and the Halfway House, then the whole area around the Blanchardstown Centre.

:eek: anyone who takes the bus in the morning would disagree with you. It is usually a nightmare from tesco all the way to Hanlons corner and sometimes beyond to manor street in the mornings.

cgcsb

Chivito550 wrote: »

Yeh what's the appeal of time based ticketing? If you spend 60 minutes on a bus, through horrific traffic you pay more than on a quiet Friday morning where you fly in in 35 minutes. That is utterly stupid.

Why can't we just implement "touch on, touch off" like with the LUAS? Have standard public transport zones (not different ones for buses, LUAS and trains). If you touch on in zone 4, and get off in zone 4, you pay less, than if you touch off in zone 2. If you forget to touch off, you pay the maximum fare. Simple.

operating the back doors at every stop and putting in a touch off machine at the back doors would really speed things up.

devnull

Bambi wrote: »

I'v always said that reintroducing conductors would solve most of dublin buses major drawbacks but it's too crazy an idea to ever happen.

Hiring one conductor for every bus in the fleet, even if they are paid €25k each, and I'd say it would be more, would cost the company over €20m and even then it would only give you 8 hours a day Monday to Friday only.

Lets be realistic here.

cgcsb

I find the section between Cabra Cross and the bus lane on manor street to be by far the most tedious part of a Blanch bus journey.

Of course a settlement the size of Blanchardstown should not be depending on double decker buses for transport, there should be a frequent electrified rail service on the Maynooth line with regular feeder buses.

Dyr

devnull wrote: »

Hiring one conductor for every bus in the fleet, even if they are paid €25k each, and I'd say it would be more, would cost the company over €20m and even then it would only give you 8 hours a day Monday to Friday only.

Lets be realistic here.

You have the cost and the benefits, the benefits would be substantial, would it justify the cost? I don't know, but look at what they paid for that joke of a super QBC in drumcondra.

devnull

What do you think the benefits would be?

I can't see them being anywhere near worth the €20m minimum it would cost.

Dyr

devnull wrote: »

What do you think the benefits would be?

I can't see them being anywhere near worth the €20m minimum it would cost.

loiter times absolutely gone
ticketing options now wide open, hell you could introduce credit card payments even
anti social behaviour sorted
fare dodging sorted

LXFlyer

On average each bus requires 3 staff duties per day (excluding the peak hour only buses) - staffing every one of those with a conductor would be an astronomical cost.

It's just not going to happen.

What's wrong with the new bus lane in Drumcondra?

It seems to work pretty well anytime I've used it and has speeded up the service in both directions.

Dyr

lxflyer wrote: »

What's wrong with the new bus lane in Drumcondra?

It seems to work pretty well anytime I've used it and has speeded up the service in both directions.

Its crap. You're still crawling from the canal to the cat and cage if traffic is busy.

1huge1

collie0708 wrote: »

Don't use public transport often due to my commute taking twice as long due to poor connectivity. However got the red line luas today and it desperately needs more security as the amount of undesirables just hoping on and off with no tickets is crazy I was delighted to get of the thing. Just got onto the train and 2 junkies across from me having a few cans talking about how 1 of them in sue in court for breaking into houses 😡😡😡 wish I had brought the car

The Luas security are doing their best, but at the end of the day, all they can legally do is remove people from the tram.

There was an interesting article in the papers last week about it

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/luas-calls-for-help-battling-antisocial-behaviour-after-644-complaints-this-year-34226215.html here is the independents take, essentially the Luas security are asking for more powers or for the Gardai to become more involved.

I would have no issue with the Luas security having the power to do more, but am clueless regarding the effect this would have on the law.

Chivito550

Bambi wrote: »

loiter times absolutely gone
ticketing options now wide open, hell you could introduce credit card payments even
anti social behaviour sorted
fare dodging sorted

Conductors are a crazy idea, and a step back into the past. I haven’t seen it in any developed first world country (I’m sure there is somewhere, but I haven’t seen it). Rio de Janeiro is the only place I have encountered it.

A better idea:

Instead of investing in a ridiculous amount of conductors, invest in more ticket inspectors, therefore more ticket checks. Increase the amount of the fare evasion fine by 2 or 2.5 times as a disincentive to fare evade. I dropped close to $200 in Melbourne after a few months in the city when I got caught (I know I shouldn’t have been fare evading, but I had no job and was broke from trying to get set up in a new country), and sure enough I never ever chanced it ever again. I always made sure my card was validated.

In addition to the above, have easy to follow public transport zones (not the ridiculous stage system we have here), and a touch on touch off machine on all buses, at both the front door and middle door.

benjamin d

RainyDay wrote: »

Any links? Honestly, it sounds very unlikely. Things like this don't get done on a whim, and require a raft of approvals and involvement of other people, including local authorities (who are often controlled by parties other than govt parties).

Haven't read to the end so this may have been mentioned, but on a very related note to zulutango's post... LOL

http://www.welovedonegal.com/harry-blaney-bridge.html

1huge1

benjamin d wrote: »

Haven't read to the end so this may have been mentioned, but on a very related note to zulutango's post... LOL

http://www.welovedonegal.com/harry-blaney-bridge.html

I actually was in shock reading that, and then when I found it on google maps, it was even more amazing, connecting nowhere with nowhere (in population terms).

chops018

I'm in training at the moment so I'm not too bad as I'm very near the station when I arrive, also the fact that it takes me between 20 mins and 35 mins to get to Dublin on the train depending on whether I get the direct train or one that stops everywhere, so a very quick commute when you don't have to go far once you're off the train.

However, when I'm back in the office in April it will be a nightmare as when I get to Dublin from the train it will take an average of 30 mins to get there and then it's another 4km to get to work from the station. So if I decide to get a LUAS and walk, or get a bus, or just walk, it will take another 40 mins to get 4km across to the other side of the city, which is an absolute joke.

I can't wait until the LUAS lines are connected as it will be much quicker and easier to work out the times. I think I am going to have to get a bike as it would only be 15-20 mins compared to 40. I don't know how on earth it can be possible for me to come 50km on a train in 30 mins and then take 40 mins to go 4km when I arrive in Dublin. Ridiculous.

Anyway, as I said, I'll probably just have to try bike it until the LUAS lines are connected.

LXFlyer

chops018 wrote: »

I'm in training at the moment so I'm not too bad as I'm very near the station when I arrive, also the fact that it takes me between 20 mins and 35 mins to get to Dublin on the train depending on whether I get the direct train or one that stops everywhere, so a very quick commute when you don't have to go far once you're off the train.

However, when I'm back in the office in April it will be a nightmare as when I get to Dublin from the train it will take an average of 30 mins to get there and then it's another 4km to get to work from the station. So if I decide to get a LUAS and walk, or get a bus, or just walk, it will take another 40 mins to get 4km across to the other side of the city, which is an absolute joke.

I can't wait until the LUAS lines are connected as it will be much quicker and easier to work out the times. I think I am going to have to get a bike as it would only be 15-20 mins compared to 40. I don't know how on earth it can be possible for me to come 50km on a train in 30 mins and then take 40 mins to go 4km when I arrive in Dublin. Ridiculous.

Anyway, as I said, I'll probably just have to try bike it until the LUAS lines are connected.

What's the journey in the city?

Chivito550

Sums it all up here:

Some clowns thinking Irish Rail should go bust, and close all rail lines outside of Dublin!

http://www.politics.ie/forum/transport/242401-irish-rail-whats-solution-shambles.html

benjamin d

1huge1 wrote: »

I actually was in shock reading that, and then when I found it on google maps, it was even more amazing, connecting nowhere with nowhere (in population terms).

I've heard it's basically a private drag strip for the local boy racers. I'm surprised it wasn't a national scandal at the time given that the crash came between starting and opening it.
The country needs to learn that national politicians should represent national interests rather than gombeen local TDs getting shiny things in return for favours.

Banjoxed

Chivito550 wrote: »

Sums it all up here:

Some clowns thinking Irish Rail should go bust, and close all rail lines outside of Dublin!

http://www.politics.ie/forum/transport/242401-irish-rail-whats-solution-shambles.html

P.ie was always a curious melange of dissos and Ayn Rand lickers.

devnull

Bambi wrote: »

loiter times absolutely gone

There's other ways to do this without a conductor which are far more cost effective.

hell you could introduce credit card payments even

Which would cost another few million to purchase equipment, train staff and to run the back office system as well as given the payment processor their cut.

fare dodging sorted

There were traditionally four types of fare dodging.

People using student tickets who were not students
(vastly reduced by only allowing student tickets on a student leap card which cannot just be purchased by anyone)

People using fake or expired free travel passed
(will be vastly reduced by the new smart card)

Over-riding fraud
(Better inspections can help with this, but moving towards flat fares could as well although the later is not viable right now)

People using child tickets
(Again not so easy as it used to be due to leap)

The number of ways to cheat the system are being reduced, and coupled with more inspections should seem them reduced further.

There is far more no ticket fraud going on, on Irish Rail and nothing is being done at all about it.

magicbastarder

cgcsb wrote: »

operating the back doors at every stop and putting in a touch off machine at the back doors would really speed things up.

i was in seattle many years ago, and the system there was that on an inbound bus trip, you pay getting on the bus. on an outbound trip, you pay getting off.

the main thing which allowed this to work was that it was a flat fare, so there was no concern about how far you'd travelled; but it significantly reduced the amount of time the buses were sitting at the stops in the city centre.

cgcsb

magicbastarder wrote: »

i was in seattle many years ago, and the system there was that on an inbound bus trip, you pay getting on the bus. on an outbound trip, you pay getting off.

the main thing which allowed this to work was that it was a flat fare, so there was no concern about how far you'd travelled; but it significantly reduced the amount of time the buses were sitting at the stops in the city centre.

we have cross city routes

filbert the fox

cgcsb wrote: »

operating the back doors at every stop and putting in a touch off machine at the back doors would really speed things up.

I've just remembered why the Public Transport System is so bad. You can't get off a busy bus with the Driver Huggers up the front!

cgcsb

filbert the fox wrote: »

I've just remembered why the Public Transport System is so bad. You can't get off a busy bus with the Driver Huggers up the front!

The faces on tourists when they realise they have to battle their way to the top of the bus with their bags because the driver won't open the doors is priceless.

Chivito550

cgcsb wrote: »

The faces on tourists when they realise they have to battle their way to the top of the bus with their bags because the driver won't open the doors is priceless.

And the look on their faces when they have to go rustling around through their bags for coins. I was parked at a bus stop for about 90 seconds one day, on one of the first stops on the 16, while a couple of tourists (must have been staying with friends out that way) spent an age looking for change. Never occurred to the driver to start driving while they were doing this.

cgcsb

Chivito550 wrote: »

And the look on their faces when they have to go rustling around through their bags for coins. I was parked at a bus stop for about 90 seconds one day, on one of the first stops on the 16, while a couple of tourists (must have been staying with friends out that way) spent an age looking for change. Never occurred to the driver to start driving while they were doing this.

In fairness when you visit another City one generally must look-up the ticketing arrangements, on many systems you can't buy a ticket on the bus or it is very cumbersome to do so.

The J Stands for Jay

Chivito550 wrote: »

Why on earth were the 2 LUAS lines not connected to begin with?
Why on earth was Heuston station never connected to Pearse or Connolly?
Why are Commuter Rail services so infrequent?
Why does nothing seem to ever connect in this city? (Long walk from Green Line to DART for example)?

1. Brilliant political thinking. No one would have agreed to digging up the city centre for a few years. Build it close to the centre, and when they see how good it is, the great unwashed will demand they are joined.
2. There's a lovely tunnel through Phoenix Park.
3. Ah sure, the times are grand.
4. The 114 bus links the green line to the DART.

ClovenHoof

cgcsb wrote: »

Well DART Underground and Metro North are the key to revolutionizing pt in Dublin, I look forward to unseating the current transport minister over this failing.

He will just be replace by another 'vanity project' maggot who went to school either on the back of a tractor or in his father's (who was also a rural TD like his grandfather before) mercedes.

It is a never ending cycle of morons in this country being elected and put into departments in order to produce reports and then kill infrastructure in Dublin.

ClovenHoof

Listing to me. I am being 100% honest. I am not being negative or trolling when I say this.

There is NO HOPE for a rail based public transport system that Dublin badly requires being designed and b uilt as long as Dublin is still controlled by Politicians, Civil Servants and Journalists who are from 'proud GAA families'

It is really the honest truth. The only way Dublin will ever get the required public transport system is if some other country invades us and exterminates or places in work camps the entire current Irish social elite.

Zebra3

ClovenHoof wrote: »

He will just be replace by another 'vanity project' maggot who went to school either on the back of a tractor or in his father's (who was also a rural TD like his grandfather before) mercedes.

It is a never ending cycle of morons in this country being elected and put into departments in order to produce reports and then kill infrastructure in Dublin.

Unprecedented wealth in the state while a Dublin Taoiseach in power.

We got one new tram line and basically the reopening of an old train line.

Not just the fault of "culchies".

1huge1

Not to mention, Pascal Donohoe is Dublin born and bred and doesn't appear to have a country background.